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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: DML1 on Monday 17 December 12 02:22 GMT (UK)
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I an trying to confirm that Arthur Gray and Ann Plane, both of Staplehurst, married at Langley, Kent on about 18 April 1738.
The on-line document Canterbury Marriage Licenses for Staplehurst People shows a license dated 18 April 1738 for them to marry at Staplehurst, Maidstone or Langley.
I believe the Staplehurst parish register shows the marriage at Langley on 14 April 1738 of Arthur Grey and Ann Bale, both of Staplehurst. I am hoping that the Bride's surname was really Plane.
Is anyone able to find the marriage details of Arthur Gray/Grey in the Langley parish register for mid-April 1738 please?
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
It was the 14th April 1738, Arthur GREY to Anne BALE, both of Staplehurst, by Licence.
No witnesses given.
Betty
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Betty
Thank you kindly for your quick reply, and for the welcome. It means the apparent name error was introduced at Langley, and the marriage seems to be a little earlier than the license.
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It's a while since you posted this query.
Ann PLANE was the eldest daughter of John & Ann of Staplehurst, a family I am researching. Do you have any further details about John PLANE or are you just investigating Arthur GRAY's marriage?
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I am a descendant of John Plane through Ann Plane and Arthur Gray, so I am interested in John. However all I know about the family is from the Staplehurst parish registers, plus the death of George 1729 at Queenborough in 1781. Our findings are on the Weald website.
Re the marriage of Ann Plane and Arthur Gray, I obtained a copy of the Canterbury marriage licence and it was issued on 13 April 1738, the day before the Langley marriage. The issue date of 18 April shown on the internet and elsewhere is in error. I have also seen film of the Langley PR and the bride's name was recorded as Bale, but I am sure she was Plane, consistent with the licence.
Arthur Gray of course was the smuggler, member of the Hawkhurst Gang, who was hanged at Tyburn in 1748.
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Thanks for the speedy reply.
I've been looking at the evidence for John PLANE who lived in Staplehurst.
According to the KAS MIs John's gravestone in Staplehurst churchyard says that he died 4th November 1745 aged 67 which gives a birth year of about 1678. A later review of this by the Staplehurst History Society says the age is 61 and thus a year of birth around 1684. He was a victualler.
George (an innkeeper, later of Marden) and Anne PLANE had a son called John baptised in 1685 at East Peckham. They also had a son called Iden who became a victualler in Marden.
There is also a John PLANE baptised 20th January 1680 at Brenchley (next to Marden) son of Francis PLANE & Anne TASKER.
John and Ann PLANE of Staplehurst had the following children: Sarah, Iden, John, Ann, Richard, Robert, Elizabeth, Thomas, Mary, George. I feel this naming pattern and John's occupation mean he is more likely to be the son of George and Anne.
I have only found a marriage for one John PLANE in the correct time frame: to Ann Chapman of Linton at Teston - says he was from Marden. This marriage was by banns so no chance of any further info from a licence.
At the moment I can't prove which is the correct John. Even George's will (if it has survived) may not give me the answer.
Do you have any thoughts?
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I think George and Anne were the parents of John based on the details you provide, but the only source I have at present is familysearch, so I can't confirm everything for myself:
The 1713 marriage of John Plane and Ann Chapman at Teston is a good fit: it is on familysearch but that doesn't mention their parishes of Marden and Linton - I guess they comes from the PR?
Ann(e) Chapman looks like the one born at Marden in 1687 to Richard and Elizabeth (two of John and Ann's children seem to be named after them).
The children of Iden and Mary Plane at Marden were Mary 1721, Iden 1723, John 1724, Ann 1727 and John 1730. All these names are repeated in the children of John and Ann, tending to confirm that the fathers John and Iden are closely related.
The only child I can see for George and Anne is Anne baptised at Marden in 1688, which at least confirms they were there. I don't see the births of their children John and Iden on familysearch, but you must have a source for these?
Following your thought that the children of John and Ann could be named after relatives, this accounts for John, Ann, Iden, Richard, Elizabeth, Mary and George, leaving only Sarah, Robert and Thomas.
But only the children's' names Iden, Mary and George have any real bearing on the key question of which John married Ann Chapman, and the significance of these depends on the birth details of the brothers John and Iden.
Although Iden Plane was living at Marden around that time, three of his children, John 1724, Anne 1727 and John 1730 were buried at Linton in 1725, 1729 and 1733 respectively. I don't know what to make of that.
I would appreciate any details of the sources for the 1713 marriage at Teston and the births of John Plane and his brother Iden please. And in fact when and where was Iden born?
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Just a quick reply as I'm off to work in a moment.
I have a copy of a will which places Iden PLANE at Stilebridge, Marden which is at the northern edge of the parish. It was probably as easy to use Linton Church as Marden.
George, Iden and Francis (although I'm not sure it's the same one who ends up in Brenchley) plus a Thomas were all baptised in East Peckham, the children of Francis & Ann PLANE. Beyond them the family has been well documented.
http://memory.loc.gov/master/gdc/scdser01/200401/books_on_film_project/PSCLOC_BF013/PDFs/20070601065ge/00000030.pdf
for further pages just change the number at the end of the URL.
This (supposedly) takes the family back to Alexander IDEN high Sheriff of Kent who, in 1450, killed Jack CADE the leader of a rebellion by Kent and Sussex men trying to force reforms on the government of Henry VI.
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The 1713 marriage of John Plane and Ann Chapman at Teston is a good fit: it is on familysearch but that doesn't mention their parishes of Marden and Linton - I guess they comes from the PR? Yes, I’ve seen the original and there is a transcription on FindMyPast.
I don't see the births of their children John and Iden on familysearch, but you must have a source for these? I have a transcription of East Peckham parish records. John baptised 19/04/1685 Iden 27/02/1687 sons of George & Ann PLANE.
Iden is mentioned in the will of Philadelphia SIMONS - "all my messuage or tenement lands and premises situate being at or near a place called Stile Bridge in Marden aforesaid and now in the occupation or tenure of Iden PLANE.....
You will note from the link to the PLANE tree that I mentioned earlier that the SIMONS family were related.
I have also found the following records:
Marriage George PLAIN to Martha SMITH 1678 at Hunton
Baptism Martha PLAIN daughter of Georg of East Peckham 27th January 1681 at Yalding
Burial Martha wife of Georg PLAIN of East Peckham 27th January 1681 at Yalding
Marriage George PLANE of Peckham to Anne BEESOM, widow, OTP, 26th June 1684 at All Saints, Maidstone by licence
Canterbury Diocese Marriage Licences :
Geo PLANE to An BEASTON 1684
George PLANE to Mary LAKE 1695 (I don't know if this is the same George yet)
Let me know if you feel this all makes sense.
George PLANE's will dated 1712 is listed here:
http://www.kentarchaeology.ac/ekwills_a/series/ekp_p2/ekp_p2n_pik.htm
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Hello DML1
Am wondering where the information regarding all the children of Iden and Mary Plane can be found. I have the children Mary, Iden and John born to Iden and Mary Playne from the baptisms Marden History Group archives, but do not have the others. They give the location as St Michaels and All Angels Church awa Independant chapel. Not sure what the two location names mean. I am working on the hope this is one and the same family.
Cheers
bkr188
The children of Iden and Mary Plane at Marden were Mary 1721, Iden 1723, John 1724, Ann 1727 and John 1730. All these names are repeated in the children of John and Ann, tending to confirm that the fathers John and Iden are closely related.
Although Iden Plane was living at Marden around that time, three of his children, John 1724, Anne 1727 and John 1730 were buried at Linton in 1725, 1729 and 1733 respectively. I don't know what to make of that.
I would appreciate any details of the sources for the 1713 marriage at Teston and the births of John Plane and his brother Iden please. And in fact when and where was Iden born?
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Thank you for all those details. I think I can see the big picture now. Just the fact that John Plane of Staplehurst named one of his children Iden is a strong indication that he descended from the family on the link you sent, page 23, where Iden Plane is an old family name.
But it also means John of Staplehurst may not be closely related to Iden 1687.
You have detailed the probable lineage in which John of Staplehurst is John 1685, son of George 1650. This supported by the fact that John of Staplehurst named one of his children George.
But the possibility remains to be considered that John of Staplehurst was a son of George's brothers Francis 1647 or Iden 1654, in which case John of Staplehurst could have named his son George after his uncle. Do we know what happened to Francis 1647 or Iden 1654?
As you say, Francis 1647 may possibly have been the one who married Anne Tasker in 1677 and had children Francis 1678, Anne 1679, John 1680 and Thomas 1686 at Brenchley.
I am confused by the Planes at Brenchley. Several Planes were born in Brenchley in the period to 1620 to fathers Robert and William: George 1603, Margaret 1605, Francis 1611 and John 1620.
This could suggest that the Brenchley Planes were a different group form ours.
After Robert died in 1622 there were no more baptisms on familysearch until the children of Francis Plane and Ann Tasker in 1678-1686, including John 1680. Also at Brenchley, Mary Plane married Thomas Brooker in 1665 and Henery Plane married Sarah Wells in 1684.
We seem to be missing a generation in the middle there. I don't think they all went away and came back again. I am wondering if perhaps Francis, Mary and/or Henery were born at Brenchley in the civil war period so they are not on the PR and familysearch does not know about them.
Perhaps some other source has a record of a Francis born at Brenchley circa 1650, which would confirm that John 1680 is descended from Robert or William, and not from Francis 1647?
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Hello bkr188
I am simply working from familysearch.
The baptisms are just recorded as children of Iden and Mary Plane or Playne at Marden. The source films are 1736878 and 1751979. Per familysearch these correspond to the bishop's and archdeacon's transcripts of the parish register of the parish church of Marden, named the Church of Saint Michael and All Angels.
The tricky part about the children's burials on familysearch is that the burial of John 1724 in 1725 is indexed under the father's name of Jden.
Now that I look there is another burial under the father's name of Jden or Eden also at Linton, for child named Jden or Eden on 2 Aug 1722. This is before the baptism of Iden on 24 Jun 1723. Either one of the dates is wrong, or there was an earlier child called Iden. Do you know when Iden Plane married Mary?
Regards, DML1
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I have found the marriage licence for Iden PLAYN and Mary GILBART at St Mary Magdalene, Old Fish Street, London in 23rd July 1720.
He was of the parish of Marden, 33 years old, a Victualler and a bachelor, she a spinster of Marden, 31 years old
He signed Iden Playn.
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Francis PLAYN married Ann TASKER at Tudeley 17th April 1677.
I have not found any baptisms for Tudely or Capel prior to 1663 and Bishops transcripts only start from 1716 according to the Kent Archives listing
https://shareweb.kent.gov.uk/Documents/leisure-and-culture/archives-and-local-history/Archives%20Parish%20Registers%20Guide.pdf
This may explain the absence of some PLANEs before this time. :-\
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Hello bearcat and bkr188
Bearkat thank you for the details of Iden Plane and Mary's marriage. The date of 23 Jul 1720 means that there was barely enough time for them to have another child Iden before Mary, who was baptised 24 Sep 1721.Mary must have been heavily pregnant at the wedding, or alternatively the 1st Iden was born before the marriage. I can't find a record of his birth. So the burial date of 2 Aug 1722 for Iden at Linton remains questionable. It would mean that of their 6 children, 4 died in childhood and were buried at Linton.
In addition, familysearch has "Idea" Playne buried at Linton on 12 Feb 1773. He would be Iden 1723 rather than Iden 1687? (I assume you have their burial dates?) So 5 of the children of Iden and Mary Plane were buried at Linton. They must have had a family burial area?
I may be able to go and confirm the Linton dates from the PR online on Friday, unless you can do it sooner.
Re the Planes of Brenchley, the possibility I am exploring is that the Francis Playn who married Ann Tasker was born at Brenchley during the civil war period, and they just married at Tudeley because it was the bride's parish. (Does the marriage record mention Francis' parish?) Francis could have been the son of Francis 1611 or John 1620, both born at Brenchley. That is the birth I am looking for.
It would mean that their son John 1680 was not descended from Francis 1647 of East Peckham, and so would have no reason to name one of his sons George. This would tend to rule out John 1680 as a candidate to be John of Staplehurst, leaving only John 1685. At least that is my thinking.
Regards, DML1
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You've got about as far as I have with this family.
I haven't seen the original parish register entries for Tudeley, Brenchley or Linton to see if any further details are given.
Linton MIs are not included on the Kent Archaeological Society website. I doubt if any are still readable after all this time but I will put it on my to do list.
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I have a copy of the will ;D
It definitely mentions son John PLANE and Anne CHAPMAN.
I'll post more when I have deciphered the handwriting :-\
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I can't make out everything but here goes
I give unto my son John Plane fifteen pounds of good and lawful money of Great Britain
I give and bequeath to my granddaughter Mary Gardiner the daughter of Martha Gardiner the some of five pounds to be paid to her when she shall come to the age of one and twenty years
if it shall happen that my son John Plane shall be married to Anne Chapman daughter of Richd Chapman of Marden my will and .... is that the said John shall forfeit all his rights and titles to my temporal estate
son Iden and wife Ann to be executors
Memorandum That the within named Iden Plane my son I will and bequeath to him the sum of fifty five pounds to be paid to him on..... two years after my death by my executrs
If you let me have your email address by PM I will send you a copy to see what you can make of it all.
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bearcat and brk188:
Following up on my post last Wednesday, I viewed the Linton PR today:
Iden, Son of Iden Playne of Marden was buried at Linton on 23 Aug 1723, not 1722 as shown on familysearch. That is after the baptism of his son Iden on 24 Jun 1723, so the latter would be the one buried. So there is no need to suppose Iden and Mary Plane had another child Iden before Mary 1721. They had 5 children but only Mary survived childhood, the other 4 being buried at Linton.
Also buried at Linton was Iden Playne of Newenden on 12 Feb 1773. Mary 1721 went to live at Newenden after she married Samuel Bishop, so her father Iden must have been living with her in his old age. Iden 1687 must have died at the age of 86.
Also buried at Linton was Anne Plaine Widow from Marden on 1 Feb 1739/40. This places her as Anne Beaston, widow of Iden's father George.
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Looking at familysearch again, George Plane was buried at Linton on 11 Apr 1712, a week after writing his will. Perhaps he was the first.
And Mary Plane wife of Iden was buried at Linton on 8 Aug 1757 or 1758.
I will check these against the PR at some future time.
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Thank you for the extra details from the Linton parish records. :D
The research on this thread shows that you cannot rely on online resources alone - you need to see the original records
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Hello DML1
Great work, and thank you for the info. Just one problem: The Marden History Group archives give the parents of Iden christened 24 June 1723 as John and Mary and the other two children Mary, born 12 Sept 1721 and John christened 15 Sept 1724 as children of Iden and Mary. Do you think there may be a typo on www.mardenhistory.org.uk/memberview.BAPTISMS? I have also seen where Iden was the child of Iden and Mary on another list of christenings at Marden.
Is very confusing with so many Idens and John. Mary's father could well have gone to live with her. There seemed to be a lot of relations at Lossenham Manor at different times. Will try to verify such.
bearcat and brk188:
Following up on my post last Wednesday, I viewed the Linton PR today:
Iden, Son of Iden Playne of Marden was buried at Linton on 23 Aug 1723, not 1722 as shown on familysearch. That is after the baptism of his son Iden on 24 Jun 1723, so the latter would be the one buried. So there is no need to suppose Iden and Mary Plane had another child Iden before Mary 1721. They had 5 children but only Mary survived childhood, the other 4 being buried at Linton.
Also buried at Linton was Iden Playne of Newenden on 12 Feb 1773. Mary 1721 went to live at Newenden after she married Samuel Bishop, so her father Iden must have been living with her in his old age. Iden 1687 must have died at the age of 86.
Also buried at Linton was Anne Plaine Widow from Marden on 1 Feb 1739/40. This places her as Anne Beaston, widow of Iden's father George.
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I think I will need to look at the original register to check whether it is John or Iden. Both can look similar when a few flourishes are added.
With the duplicated CofE and non-conformist records for the children one is listed as John and the other Iden - very confusing
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If I am right then the Marden History Group records would seem to be wrong. I plan to see the Linton PR again on Monday and will save the relevant records for future discussion, but I can't view Marden. John and Mary does not make too much sense to me, as John was with Ann Chapman in Staplehurst.
I have been trying to work out the details of George's other children, and all roads lead to Linton. I haven't found the marriage of George's 1st daughter Martha 1681 to Mark Gardner, but their daughter Martha was baptised at Linton in 1705 and seemingly Martha nee Plane was buried there in 1706 which explains why they had only 1 child. The two Marthas were mentioned in George's will of 1712, but seemingly he failed to mention that his daughter was dead.
Martha was the 2nd of Mark Gardner's 3 wives. He married Mary Hadloe at Linton in 1701 but she was buried at Linton in 1703. And he married Elizabeth Walker at Linton later in 1706 after Martha died. Mark himself was buried at Linton in 1712. Mark's wives did not have much luck. Martha must have married Mark between 1703 and 1705.
George's other daughter Anne 1688 seems to have married John Ossen at Linton in 1711, so perhaps she was not mentioned in George's will because she had already received her share as a dowry. They had a child Edward named after John's father, baptised at Linton in 1712 and buried there in 1713. John also was buried at Linton in 1713.
All this is provisionally sourced from familysearch, and I still have to check it against the PR for any confirming details.
So as far as we know George's daughter Martha was the first in the family to be buried at Linton, in 1706. George followed in 1712, then Iden's 4 youngest children between 1725 and 1733, George's widow Anne in 1739, Iden's wife Mary in 1757 or 1758 and Iden in 1773. Also young Edward Ossen was buried there in 1713.
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Of course in my previous post instead of saying that the two Marthas were mentioned in George's will I should have said that his daughter Martha and granddaughter Mary were mentioned in the will, but seemingly he failed to mention that his daughter Martha was dead. It makes difference to the wider logic.
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Sorry and the daughter of Martha 1681 and Mark Gardner was Mary 1705 not Martha. And it makes no difference to the wider logic.
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Sorry it was my message that caused the confusion between Mary/Martha :-\
As you say we're building up the bigger picture with this family.
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I went to view the Linton PR again today, and this time saved copies of the pages concerned so I can send them to either of you if you like.
Re bkr188's point about whether the father of Iden 1723 was John or Iden, I can't speak for what is in the Marden PR. But John and Iden can look very similar if the cursive capital I is written like J, and I can understand how a transcriber could confuse the two, especially if he has never heard of Iden Plane.
But I have copies of the 4 children's burials in Linton, and the father was Iden all cases.
Specifically for Iden buried at Linton on 2 Aug 1723, the narration is "Iden Son of Iden & - (mother's name omitted) Playne of Marden". In Iden, the I is essentially the same as J, the d is written as ∂ and the e as Ԑ. If this isn't the Iden baptised at Marden on 24 Jun 1723 (supposed father John) then I don't know where he came from. But I guess the complete answer is in the Marden PR, something I can't look at quickly.
The Martha Gardner who was buried in 1706 was definitely the wife of John. I had not noticed before that John Gardner's burial date of 11 Apr 1712 was the same as George's, coincidence I think.
Edward Ossen's burial on 16 Mar 1713 was actually in 1713/14, so it was after the burial of his father John Ossen on 21 Oct 1713.
Unexpectedly the Mary Plaine who was buried at Linton in 1758 was described as the wife of Iden Plaine of Staplehurst. An Iden Plane was baptised at Staplehurst in 1718, but I think he died in 1744. On the face of it Iden 1687 lived at Staplehurst around 1758, well after his brother John 1685 the latter's wife Anne died there.
Bearkat, does that fit in with what you know about Staplehurst?
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Another correction: the references to Martha Plane's husband John Gardner in my previous post should read Mark Gardner.
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All these Johns, Idens and Johns that could be Iden plus all the names beginning with Mar.. living in Mar-den leads to a very confusing family ::)