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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: peggysmum on Tuesday 11 December 12 15:25 GMT (UK)
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hi all. sorry havent been on for a while, but ive still been beavering away trying to solve this puzzle of my family. i have had a lot of help from kaziah i dont think i could have got this far without her but we are both stuck. where i am at so far is as follows in reverse order.
lavinia loveridge (my great gran) bn 1897 suffolk dd 1987 markyate,herts.
israel loveridge (her dad, partner of the mysterious eliza loveridge) bn ampthill beds, 1869 dd 1940 st albans
alfred loveridge (his dad, partner of comfort parker) bn bedford c1852 dd c1929
now we think alfred is the son of joseph loveridge aka montague grey and elizabeth loveridge but we just cant find the proof. there are several alfred loveridges bn around the right time but he seems to be the only one on bedfordshire he seems to fit BUT there is a problem which is what is throwing us out.
we have in the 1871 census in princes risbourgh, bucks
alfred lovel/r 24 beds
comfort lovel/r 24 bucks
ambrose 4 beds
issac/israel 1 beds.
with them is nelson parker and his family and james taylor and his family.
but in cople, beds in 1871 there is an entry for
montague grey 37
elizabeth loveridge 36
alfred son 20 bn 1851 bedford.
all other kids.
so could he have been in both places, i dont mean at the same time i mean a few days later. nelson parker and his family got caught twice in the 71 census so could alfred, or is it possible a mistake was made, i should imagine the enumerator filled out the form could montague/joseph have just said the names of all there kids misunderstanding that they only wanted those present not all there family. or am i getting desperate and clutching at straws.
the only other thing is in the 1891 census comfort parker is found with some of her kids and a chap called thomas grey, now i dont know who he is but i suspect he may well be alfred, she is back with alf in 01 and 11. i have not found them in the 1881 census or alfred,israel or ambrose loveridge in the 91 so im wandering if ther eis this link with the grey surname maybe that is what connects the families.
i may possibly have asked this before, if so im sorry, im trying to find the answer to who my alfred is, im sure he is a member of the loveridge family that is descended from william and margaret loveridge but i just cant find which alf he is.
hope someone here can help. thanks so much tracey
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hi. can anyone help please, has anyone come across examples of romanies being entered on census reports twice. thanks tracey
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yes my birches were.they were enumerated one evening in one place and as they trsvelled through the night they were enumerated again the followeing day by another enumerator and the wife had gained 10 years in age!!!!it was definately the same family twice though.
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hi cathay thanks for that i was beginning to think i was going mad, my darned loveridges are not making life easy. im now wandering if alfred was actually registered maybe even baptised as something else but known as alfred and this is perhaps why i cant find his registration. i wish i could find out more about the family of joseph loveridge/montague grey and elizabeth loveridge as i feel certain this is the right family. when i look at the names of the children of alf and comfort and indeed israel and eliza they match up with family names of the children of joe and elizabeth and there grandchildren, i know it isint proof but what else can you do when your stuck but clutch at wild straws. ::)
tracey
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where did they travel about?a lot of loveridges down here in somerset changed their name to issac?
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they travelled mainly around the bucks,beds, suffolk and essex area. my line settled eventually in beds and herts but i have found some went to essex. i found an article from 1964 which has 2 photos in of my great gran's brother israel loveridge in. they were in a magazine in it he says he mostly travelled around brentwood, ive now discovered 3 yrs earlier his mum eliza died in stanway so im now thinking that line settled in essex. probably still some loveridges there now in essex who could be distantly related to me.
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hi, unsure if we have corseponded before or not but loveridges in essex area's (also descended from an eliza/elizabeth loveridge) could be alias "stone" as an eliza loveridge had children by 2 brothers ike stone & stephen stone, may be of help or not?? she registered the children in her maiden name but some as they got older used or took the fathers name. good luck and let me know if i can be of help :)
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hi. as far as i know my eliza loveridge only had kids with israel loveridge my great great grandad, they were joseph (1890) tigher/zigher (1892) charlie (1894) lavinia (my g.gran 1897) elizias(1899)rosina(1902)fanny(1904)israil(the one i have photos for in 1964 in essex bn 1905/6) bethany (1909) and matilda(1910).
israel's parents were alfred loveridge (who im now thinking was registered at birth as something else as i cant find him) and comfort parker bn 1848, there kids were ambrose (1867) israel (1869) elizah(1872)lementina(1878) elijah(1882) william(1884) montague(1886) spares(oct 1888-dec1888) patience (1888) c/amelia (1890) cinderella (1893).
dont think we have corresponded on these, although we might have done when i started back at the beginning of 2012 and didnt know all i know now. which isint much.
thanks tracey
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Hi Tracey...
In the newspaper article on the death of baby Spaces (Spares) Loveridge on 16 Nov 1888. It names his parents as Comfort Parker who lived with Thomas Gray as his wife. The body of the child being their son... I think Thomas Gray and Alfred are the same people....
I'll look again in the morning...
Kazi
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Many LOVERIDGEs can be traced back to Towcester to which William and Margaret also belonged. The origins of Alfred LOVERIDGE are unclear but the following could be Elizabeth’s baptism (followed by her father’s) since the 1871BDF census shows that her maiden surname was LOVERIDGE:
BDF Haynes bp17/5/1835 Elizabeth Lydia d/o Lemuel/Fanny LOVERIDGE, trav’g with smallware, of Towcester NTS
BDF Steppingley bp15/4/1810 (b12/4) Lemuel s/o Henry/Ann LOVERIDGE, travs
The three baptisms in 1877 at Milton Bryant BDF show that Alfred and Comfort were closely associated with John and Angelina LOVERIDGE
BDF Milton Bryant bp15/7/1877 (b6/2/1875) William s/o John/Angelina LOVERIDGE, Gipsies
BDF Milton Bryant bp15/7/1877 (b8/7) Alfred s/o John/Angelina LOVERIDGE, Gipsy
BDF Milton Bryant bp15/7/1877 (b26/12/1875) William s/o Alfred/Comfort PARKER Gipsy
A possible baptism for the above John includes a mistake in that the mother’s name should read ‘Esther’:
BRK(nowOX) Hanney bp8/6/1861 John s/o Matthew/Ellen LOVERIDGE, trav tinman & brazier of West Hanney
Mathew and Esther LOVERIDGE had several children baptised in BRK and OX so Thomas’s claim to be born in Reading [1891SFK] may be useful. There is a Thomas of the right age who says he was born in OX about 1846 [see Chippenham WIL1871] which is a good indicator of where he belongs although he cannot definitely be attributed to Matthew and Esther. The likelihood that Alfred or Thomas may have employed a variety of forenames is supported by the baptism of Rosina in 1882 at Little Missenden BKM where her father is given as Charles.
The Alfred LOVERIDGE who partnered Comfort PARKER does not look as if he was the same Alfred who was the son of Montague GREY and Elizabeth LOVERIDGE but the possibility that his parents included him in their census returns during his absence cannot yet be ruled out.
TL
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In reply to a PM,
Although perhaps not as closely related as previously thought, the four LOVERIDGE siblings preceding Montague and Elizabeth in 1871BDF would seem to be first cousins of Elizabeth being children of Lemuel’s brother, Hammoleketh, who is abbreivated to Hookey on Lavinia’s marriage certificate.
These are all LOVERIDGEs buried at St Neots in Hunts. Almost all have either a LOVERIDGE or a PARKER as their mother. Noah LOVERIDGE has also been buried there since 2000.
HUN St Neots Cemetery d24/2/1960 (86) John
HUN St Neots Cemetery d8/12/1965 (90) Maria (same Gr as John)
HUN St Neots Cemetery d16/7/1969 (14) Sylvia (b25/2/1955) [mo: LOVERIDGE]
HUN St Neots Cemetery d4/8/1971 (75) Nancy (b Dec 1896) (same Gr as Charles)
HUN St Neots Cemetery d14/7/1979 (84) Charles (b7/3/1895)
HUN St Neots Cemetery d23/1/1983 (65) Phoebe (b4/6/1917)
HUN St Neots Cemetery d21/5/1985 (66) Bob (bDecQtr1919) [mo: PARKER]
HUN St Neots Cemetery d3/10/1988 (66) Ada (b1922) (same Gr as Bob)
HUN St Neots Cemetery d24/5/1988 (73) Nelson (b9/4/1915) [mo: PARKER]
HUN St Neots Cemetery d3/7/1989 (89) John (b1900)
HUN St Neots Cemetery d10/1/2000 (85) Jim (b3/5/1914) [mo: LOVERIDGE]
At 1841GLO-0350/14//15/7 is the family of Henry and Esther LOVERIDGE living at Taynton.
The following baptisms refer to the same parents although Henry was a SMITH and Esther (snr) a LOVERIDGE:
GLO Taynton bp2/8/1840 Hester Ann d/o Henry/Hester LOVERIDGE, hkr of T
WKS Ilmington St Nicholas bp4/6/1843 George s/o Henry/Esther, hkr of Taynton (GLO) [LOVEREDGE sic]
In 1881BKM-1476/16/25 is Sampson SMITH (34) born Wavendon BKM
In 1861BKM-1006/116/1 [repeated at 1006/128/18] there is an Israel DRAPER (25) born Woburn BDF married to Naomi. Recorded below Israel is an unnamed male child, surname SMITH, age 10 with his 20 year old sister, the son and daughter of a SMITH male (48) who was, I suspect, Henry SMITH, father of all the children in the same schedule. One of his children (baptised 15 February 1846 at Wavendon BKM) is the same as the Sampson in the 1881BKM census entry referred to above. Another, the 20 year old female, is probably Hester Ann (baptism shown above) and the 10 year old male is of the right age to be Alfred.
Another son, George, was then at 1871GLO-2572/28/14 with his wife, Sabina Ruth STEVENS. This branch is well known because their daughter, Anselina, with her husband Singi BUCKLAND, appears in a photograph opposite page 40 in JGLS(3)39 and is identified on page 36 of the same issue.
The mother of the family in 1861BKM, Esther SMITH, misleadingly looks as if she is the wife of William LEACH because of the way the information is set out but she is called a ‘travelling brazier’s wife’ which is the occupation of the 48 year old man (Henry) listed on the same page.
Alfred LOVER, his wife Comfort and their two eldest children, are linked to the above family because of their neighbourly relationship with Nelson and Naomi PARKER at:
1871BKM-1409/61/32 Nelson (35) trav’g tinker, Naomi (32) +5 (same at: 1871BKM-1410/53/23)
If Naomi’s age is correctly given, she should appear in 1841GLO but she does not (unless she has changed her name) but Esther (jnr) is in the correct spot. Naomi (1871BKM) is the same woman within the Esther SMITH family of 1861BKM. The difference is that Israel DRAPER is now called Nelson PARKER [see below]. Naomi’s daughter, Isabella, is 12 in 1871 (1 in 1861)
BKM Grendon Underwood bp11/9/1859 Isabella d/o Israel/Naomi DRAPER, ch.btr of G
BKM Bow Brickhill bp28/10/1834 Israel s/o Nelson/Esther DRAPER, gipsies
BKM Hambledon bp21/1/1827 (b9/1) Nelson s/o Spencer/Elizabeth DRAPER, gypsey
Although the above Nelson DRAPER, first cousin of Israel, has a good claim to have replaced him by 1871 I do not think he did. Israel changed his name to Nelson PARKER. His baptism is closer to the age given in the 1861 and 1871 censuses. His age advances by ten years from 1861 to 1871 and his daughter confirms that he was her father at her wedding (see below).
In the following it can be assumed that Lemontina and Comfort were two sisters, daughters of Naomi, where the alternative surnames, DRAPER and PARKER, could have derived just as much from Israel’s decision to change his name as it could from the husband she married three weeks later. Comfort is 4 in the 1871BKM extract while Lemontina is 1 in the following:
1881BKM-1471/22/37 Nelson (35) trav’g tinker or Gipsy, Naomi (35) +6
BKM Beachampton bp30/11/1898 Violet May d/o John/Comfort WELCH, trav’g tinker, no home
BKM Beachampton bp30/11/1898 James s/o Lemontina DRAPER (or PARKER) [sic], unmarried, trav’g
BKM Beachampton m19/12/1898 Leonard PARKER (full) tinker (fa: blank) = Lemontina DRAPER (full) (fa: Israel – grinder)
None of the above conclusively proves that Alfred LOVERIDGE was the son of Henry & Esther but he was closely connected to Naomi who was recorded as a daughter of Esther in 1861.
TL
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hi king, thankyou very much for all this info, a few things what you have i had got in my papers but not associated with alfred, like the 61 census entry of the smiths, strange to think ive been looking at that for months and it could possibly be alf. so correct me if im wrong but im reading this as you think that my alfred may actually be the brother of naomi smith, so he should be a smith then not a loveridge, i suppose he changed his name to loveridge after his mother, so if esther smith is his mum and she is the daughter of henry loveridge and ann is that right. so from this then the alfred with montague grey is not my alfred. also the nelson parker bn 1915 died 1988 could be the nelson who reported my great grandad william ellis aka steven parkers death in 1935, he describes himself on the death cert as brother in law. i wander who his parents might be and how they are connected.
thanks again for this info it does give me a lot more infomation and ideas of where to look next. im not finding this easy as im sure you can imagine., but i guess one day i may discover the truth. do you know anything about israel and eliza loveridge at all.
thankyou tracey
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HUN St Neots Cemetery d24/5/1988 (73) Nelson (b9/4/1915) [mo: PARKER]
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have just got the birth cert for nelson (above) and discovered he is another great great uncle.
his father is shown as israel loveridge and mum eliza loveridge formerly parker.
i am very excited to find him, i just wander if there where any more children born after the 11 census. so eliza was a parker should have guessed that really as they seem to stick with the same families. ive had a loof for possible eliza parker births in beds and have 3 possibles,
an eliza loveridge parker bn j/s 1872 in the bedford district
eliza parker bn o/d 1872 ampthill district
and a eliza parker bn o/d 1869 biggleswade district. but ofcourse she could have been born outside beds but she does say on the 2 census records ive got her on with israel 01 and 11 (dont have her anywhere else) that she was bn in cranfield beds. she also says she is from cranfield on lavinia my great gran's baptisim record. she really isint make life easy.
thanks tracey
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Hello Peggysmum
This information maybe of no help to you and it also maybe just be a strange coincidence but - my great grandfather was known as Montague or Joseph Gray of a gypsy family. Sadly I know very little of him, as my mum has now passed away, but he was a wicker chair mender and had worked as a handy man at a Church in Melton Mowbray Leicestershire. My Grandfather was Montague Gray JR who was born in 1884, he married my Grandmother Alberta Bramley (none Gypsy) in 1913 and he died in 1950. My mum told me that her Grandfather died in Melton Mowbery Market and I guess that he would have been buried in that area. My Grandfather Monty had a number of brothers but I can only recall my mum telling me of the name - Claude. I have my Grandfathers and Mothers wedding certificate and it was witnessed by a Charles Gray and Catherine Gray. Catherine was unable to write her own name and so sighed with a cross as did Montague my Grandfather.
Genac
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Do you require further information?
Were Montague and Alberta married at Melton Mowbray?
TL
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Hello Peggysmum
This information maybe of no help to you and it also maybe just be a strange coincidence but - my great grandfather was known as Montague or Joseph Gray of a gypsy family. Sadly I know very little of him, as my mum has now passed away, but he was a wicker chair mender and had worked as a handy man at a Church in Melton Mowbray Leicestershire. My Grandfather was Montague Gray JR who was born in 1884, he married my Grandmother Alberta Bramley (none Gypsy) in 1913 and he died in 1950. My mum told me that her Grandfather died in Melton Mowbery Market and I guess that he would have been buried in that area. My Grandfather Monty had a number of brothers but I can only recall my mum telling me of the name - Claude. I have my Grandfathers and Mothers wedding certificate and it was witnessed by a Charles Gray and Catherine Gray. Catherine was unable to write her own name and so sighed with a cross as did Montague my Grandfather.
Genac
I hope you can help me please. I am searching for Montague Gray(1880) married Alberta Bramley. for my nephew Adam who is his Gt.Grandson. we can find the marriage from 1913 Oct — Age: 33, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire.
& then I found your post, it must be the same family.
Please Have you any more information to share with us ?
regards Linda
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Hi linda do you mean me or genac. I have told you all I have so far on monty. I will keep working on them. My next plan is too look for Alfred birth as Alfred smith. There must be information on the family prior to the 71 census other than despair and Alfred baptisms as Smith's. Wish I could get to Cambridgeshire to look in there archives.
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Hi Linda and Genac - I just found your posts, and I think your Montague/Monty is the brother of my gggrandad, Charles Gray, who was married to Catherine. It seems likely, given the witnesses to your Monty's wedding were Charles and Catherine. I'd be interested to know if you think they link? Catherine died in Rugby, Warks in 1970 - I can give you more info on the family if it helps?
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I have worked out that Israel who was married to eliza loveridge is my great grandfather. he is the father of my mum's mum phoebe loveridge who married John Baker on 29th march 1952 in northampton. Then they had my mum (Angela) and a couple of other children. i hope some of this has cleared part of this up
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they travelled mainly around the bucks,beds, suffolk and essex area. my line settled eventually in beds and herts but i have found some went to essex. i found an article from 1964 which has 2 photos in of my great gran's brother israel loveridge in. they were in a magazine in it he says he mostly travelled around brentwood, ive now discovered 3 yrs earlier his mum eliza died in stanway so im now thinking that line settled in essex. probably still some loveridges there now in essex who could be distantly related to me.
Hi
I’m Amy Backhouse, my mother Jenty Davis. Her mother Queenie Davis (Loveridge) lives in suffolk. Daughter of Noah Loveridge. Can anyone help me with finding more relatives.