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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: lynbear1 on Monday 03 December 12 07:29 GMT (UK)
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:-\
This is my Great Great Grandfather
William Murray
Born: 23rd December 1854 Aberdeen, ( I believe) to Peter Murray & Mary Flood
Married: 5th September 1877 (Shotts, Scotland) to Agnes Brown
Census: 1891 (Shotts, Scotland)
Occupation: Coal Miner
Death: 1900 Aberdeen Poorhouse (not convinced)
I struggle with the idea that he died in the poorhouse in Aberdeen while his wife still lived in Fife.
There was a rumour that he died in a mining accident in Fife.
From what I can tell they spent there entire married life in Fife.
Please I would love to solve this
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Hi ,
I see an online tree with the information you have(on the Mundia website).
It has another marriage for Agnes Brown in 1905 , she then seems to move to New Zealand.
The children are Mary Ann , Catherine , Helen , and Thomas
Would any of that match what you have ?
ev
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Yes she remarried after his death and moved to New Zealand
Those are her children
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Have you seen William's death certificate ?
I know that sometimes Poorhouse death certs. can sadly be lacking in information.
Wonder if William was placed in Aberdeen as that was his birthplace and they were deemed responsible
for his care :-\
ev
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Hi Ev,
I had thought the same but the death cert says he was a pedler,
still not convinced
Lynbear
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Sorry , are you saying it doesn't name his wife or parents ?
ev
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The only death of a William Murray in a pit accident in Ffe on the very good Fife Pits website is a 34 year old in 1904.
Dod
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The death certificate for William Murray, age 44, in Aberdeen East Poorhouse on 28th March 1900 is clear. Married to Agnes Brown and son of Peter Murray, Tinsmith, and Mary Flood both deceased
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Born: 23rd December 1854 Aberdeen, ( I believe) to Peter Murray & Mary Flood
Married: 5th September 1877 (Shotts, Scotland) to Agnes Brown
When you say you believe these to be his date of birth and parents' details, guess the parents' details were also confirmed in his marriage cert?
Dod's confirmation of what his death cert states regarding his personal details seem pretty conclusive with everything else you also have.
Have you got Agnes and children on the 1901 census (can't easily see their entry - thought daughter Mary Ann married 1900?). Assume she would be showing as widowed by now?
Can't see the entry you refer to for William in Shotts for 1891 but is this Agnes with children for that year:
Agnes Murray 29
Mary Ann Murray 12
Thos Murray 3
Christina Brown 18
Address: 33 Paton's Lane, Liff and Benvie, Angus
Monica :)
Added: William in 1891, is this the one you have for him?
William Murray, 32, coal miner, b. Aberdeenshire
Address: Pender's Row Spittal's Land, Old Monkland
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I think this is a mistranscription of the family's 1901 entry, going by the names you mentioned Ev:
James (Agnes?) Murray 39, flax spinner b. Aronadale, Linliths
Catherine Murray 17, Feeder In Tow Mill, b. Shotts, Lanark
Helen Murray 15, Filler At Heople Machines b. Boness, Linliths
Thomas Murray 14 b. Old Cumnock, ayrsh
Address: 45 North Street, Leven Fife
Daughter Mary Ann married I think end of 1900, father showed as a deceased coal miner (Thomas in error on the cert, instead of William. Also on her death cert, he also showed as Thomas).
From the census entries for 1891 and 1901, and the lack of children after Thomas. It may be that some died young...or, it may be that William and Agnes were no longer together for some years prior to his death. In this scenario, if they hadn't seen him for a few years, they may well all have stated his occupation as being that of a coal miner if that was what he did when they last heard of him?
All guesses really for now ::)
Monica
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This may be William's parents in 1881(Peter a bit young ?)
Upper Mains Barn Echt Aberdeen(all born Aberdeen , Aberdeen)
Peter Murray 42 umbrella mender
Mary Murray 50 wife
Elizabeth Murray 7 daur.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYGK-3VZ
ev
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Mary Murray age 64 m.s. Flood. widow of Peter Flood, umbrella maker, died in Nazareth House, Aberdeen in 1897. This seems to confirm ev's census entry.
Dod
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Agree :) Family tricky to find together (or at least I am struggling :P). I think this might be them though in 1861 - the family showing as 'night lodgers':
Mary Murray 25 b. Kirkwall, Orkney
William Murray 6
Elsie Murray 4
Mary Ann Murray 16 Months
Address: Aberdeen House of Industry and Refuge
Monica
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Possible Murray children -
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sg7/
ev
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Monica
Just occurred to me that, going back to my early childhood, itinerant pedlars were often "tinsmiths" repairing pots and pans etc. Maybe Peter was, like Mary Flood's father, a pedlar and that's why family not together at census - perhaps he was "on the road".
Dod
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Yep, would certainly explain that. The children in 1861 with mother Mary were simply getting night lodgings, father Peter elsewhere.
From what we have, do think it is the family for William, don't you? Hopefully the marriage entry will show the same parents as were on the death cert.
Monica
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Dod , it would also explain why William went from miner to pedlar , using skills he had picked up when he was younger.
ev
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Found father Peter now in 1861, in alternative accomodation for the night:
Peter Murray, 35, umbrella maker b. Shan, Ireland
Address: Victoria Lodging House Aberdeen
Peter's birth place in Ireland hopefully clearer to determine on the original image on SP.
Monica
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Monica
The parents given on the marriage certificate for William Murray (21), coalminer, who married Agnes Brown (16) in district of Calderhead, Lanark, in 1877 are Peter Murray, tinsmith, and Mary Flood. Marriage after banns according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church. So same parents as death certificate I'd say.
William born to Mary Flood and Peter Murray 23 December 1854 baptised 9th January 1855 in Catholic Registers on SP. I haven't downloaded the image to see what detail is there.
Dod
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Thank you guys, for all that. maybe they did seperate, I have been told he was not a nice man.
I feel better about being on the right track.
You guys are great
Lynbear :)
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Dod, you have worked hard on this ;)
lynbear1, from all the pieces you have (birth, marriage and death registrations), everything stacks up which is great. You have all of William's key data including also censuses and his own family details. We think you have all you need....hope you do to :)
You are fortunate that William's death cert included his parents' names. Sometimes with deaths at Poorhouses, parents' details are left black as they were not know to the informant which makes things tricky to confirm.
Monica
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:)
Yes I believe I do, Thank you so much for all your help.
I think what is most helpful is the way you guys process the information.
Fantastic
Thanks again
I Love this site ;D