RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: anneelaine on Monday 03 December 12 02:09 GMT (UK)
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Anybody know any think about a Charles Stavely born in Canada about 1896 a violin maker he was in the UK about 1917 thanks.
A
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Do you have more information on Charles. Where in Canada was he born. Was he a violin maker in Canada or in the Uk.
The more information you can provide the easier it will be to find him.
Did a quick look around but no luck finding him.
Lilybell
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First thought from the date, ww1, would be that was he was CEF, but nothing in the attestations that looks to be your man for name, age or occupation...although he may have used a middle name, and family history or he embellished on what he actually did for a living..
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sg9/
Hmm but I see you have a photo of him as a violinmaker, before the war...no visual clues within the photo? name of photographer?
http://genforum.genealogy.com/stavely/messages/101.html
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Have found a WW1 military file for a Charles Staveley born 1897.
He was a driver in Royal Field Artillery. He was awarded the Victory Medal and
the British guess that means British War Medal. Sure someone will correct me If I have it wrong.
His permanent address was Bowling Green Cottage,Stonegate,Yorks.
The records looks to be part of the Burnt Records for WW!.in that they are damaged.
His records indicate that he was a farm worker.
If you think this might be your man,please send me a PM with your email and I will forward them on to you.
You previously indicated he was a batsman,would a driver qualify as such. Again I'm sure
that someone on list with military knowledge will be able to help.
Lilybell :-\ :-\
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Charles staveley was born and lived in Canada
He was in the army there then sent to the uk 1917 1918 a batsman i think ,
we were told he was a violin maker in Canda nick name was Chas
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This is a photo of him 1917 he was a batman just found out the right name for his job, A batman was a sort of officer's personal orderly.
Thanks everyone for giving me help.
Anneelaine
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Wow does he ever look young...he may have been using his middle name then, as I can't find anything in censuses or anywhere...Yes Batman was one who served an officer...but not sure if in capacity of driver ...
( I know nothing of military stuff other than many rellies served...valerie and polarbear are pretty good researchers in that area)
How do you know for certain he was born in Canada, was it on a marriage cert? There was a birth 1897 Bridlington Yorkshire, England...which is very close to Stonegate...What if he was British army stationed in Canada and the family history was shuffled a bit??
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I do nt know if this is a CEF WW1 uniform I think there should be 9 buttons. Perhaps someone with military knowledge can help us out here.
I have searched through the CEF WW1 attestation records and there is no one by the name of Charles Staveley.
Are you sure of the spelling of the surname. I also checked An***try and found no record for him born in Canada.
No census records either.....he would have been on the 1901,1906 or the 1916 census if he was born in Alberta, Saskatchewan or Manitoba.
Will take another look see.
Lilybell
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Thanks all i can say is i do not know much :( when we found the birth certificate it was only the small one
All my mum would say was when she was 4, he came to see her so sad
after that no word was said, Just found bits she wrote down, after her death so no one to ask no family to ask now. he called himself chas
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The birth certificate that you found - was it for your mother or for Charles Stavely and exactly what information was on it. It is surprising what we can find with a little bit of information.
In what year was your mum 4 and where was she living.
I haven't been able to find Attestation Papers for a Charles Stavely/Staveley born in Canada. If he did join in Canada it would appear that he has been badly mistranscribed.
I have checked census records and also nothing.
Do you know if he survived the war and returned to Canada or stayed in England?
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Can you please tell us where in Canada the birth cert says he was born and the date (assuming here you were talking about Charles' birth cert and NOT your Mom's). Also, anything else it has on it might provide a clue to help things along.
There is no central birth registry in Canada. Births are a provincial responsibility and knowing which province he was born in is going to impact what info will be available on line.
Polarbear
Snap - well it is typed now so I will post it. We do need the birth cert info, assuming it's Charles', as valeriec and I have both mentioned :)
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Hello no it was my mums birth cert we found after she passed away
All i have is He was born in about 1896 from canada in the army batman in 1917 and he was a violin maker
And thats it not a lot he came back to the uk in 1922 to try and take my mum back to canada
so she thinks she was only 4 years old
I am looking now she said to me i wish i looked for my dad years ago sad but passed away soon after o dear.
thanks Anneelaine
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May I ask where was your mom born was born...was it in Canada.
I seem to be getting a bit lost here.
I found a passenger record for a Charles Stavely...says he was a British Reservist with 3rd E Lancs...looks like it could be him.
He was 25 years old...record was for 1914. Canada last country of permanent residence....England country of intended permanent residence.
I can forward the record on to you if you PM me with your email.Makes his DOB 1889.
Lilybell :) :)
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Have found a WW1 military file for a Charles Staveley born 1897.
His permanent address was Bowling Green Cottage,Stonegate,Yorks.
His records indicate that he was a farm worker.
The records also listed his next of kin as his father, John Staveley, Munston Hall Cottage, Munston, Filey, Yorkshire.
Jacquie
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I think it might be a good idea to post your lovely picture on the RootsChat general Armed Forces Board and ask if anyone can ID it, especially in light of the recently found passenger info.
I have also sent you a PM.
PB
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The following site shows a drawing that is similar to your photo. It includes the "rifle patches" shown in your photo. When in France, the CEF uniforms were found to be too tightly fitting so the CEF eventually issued "British pattern" jackets. I have not yet seen any drawings or photos that include the "bar" that is on the shoulder.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sgf/
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The "bar" on the shoulder may have been called a Shoulder Title. Looking on the internet, for sale is a WWI brass metal shoulder title. It has a similar shape as the one in your photo and this one is "W Yorkshire".
Update: looking at other items for sale, the shoulder title that is most similar to the photo appears to be Warwickshire. I have not yet found metal shoulder titles, similar to the one in the photo, for Canadian uniforms.
To add further confusion, yes there is a metal shoulder title for Canadian uniforms. It is quite similar in shape to the one in your photo, and simply states "CANADA".
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For info:
The birth of a Charles Staveley was registered in March quarter 1897 in Bridlington. He died in 1981 in Scarborough (dob 1 December 1896).
There was also a Charles Henry Staveley birth registered in March quarter 1894 in Bridlington. He died in 1984 in Scarborough.
The two births closest to 1889 were
- Charles Staveley 1887 in Burnley
(married 1909 in Burnley; there don't seem to be children or a death for him in England)
- Charles Arthur H Staveley 1891 in Sculcoates
(married 1914, had two children, died 1967 in Holderness)
FindMyPast shows no Staveley at all travelling out of the UK between 1912 and 1939 (and no male Staveley travelling to Canada ever), so if he was in England around 1922 ... did he stay?
Charles William STAVELY, birth registered June quarter 1895 Newcastle, married in 1922 died 1986 in Gateshead ...
(had one child, who had two children; his wife's death was registered as Staveley)
That would fit with the age, and with a return to England in 1922.
anneelaine -- it would help so much if you would give us the facts that you have and we do not.
You don't have to give your mum's name, but the YEAR and PLACE she was born would be very useful information.
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JJ -- when anneelaine said in the other forum:
"i do have a photo of him he was a violin maker in canada be 4 the army"
I think those were two different things
- she has a photo of him
- he was a viiolin maker in Canada
(We may have sorted that out by now. ;) )
I assume that his occupation, violin maker, is what was stated on your mum's birth certificate, anneelaine? Or is that family knowledge?
Again, it would help to know exactly what her birth certificate says, for his occupation.
We assume your mum's birth was registered in her mother's surname, so I guess whatever was put on the birth certificate would just be what her mother knew about him, as accurate as that might have been.
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lilybell
was the passenger list you found an incoming or outgoing passenger list and can you tell us the ports to and from.
I have been going through the census info for Canada and even scrolled through some of the baptism records for Quebec but cannot find a Chas/Charles Stavely/Staveley or other similar names.
I don't have access to incoming passenger lists at A******y but is it possible that he was born in Canda but returned with parents to England as a chld or young adult between census info. Most of the Stavely/Staveley surnames seem to be associated with Quebec/Montreal and a few in Ontario and the western provinces but the census info for 1881-1911 really have very few to look at and few in the age range given. There was A Rolph but he died in WW1 in 1916 or 1917. Birth/baptism for the province of Quebec will only be available at A*** throught the Druin collection or through family search by browsing through baptisms by area.
There is a Charle Staveley in Joliette, Montcalm, Quebec showing on the Canada voters list for 1962 but I also don't have access to that either to confirm. That is the only year he appears to show up in Canada.
If someone has access to the 1911 census for England, it may be wise to search for him on it.
I am also having problems trying to determine the uniform, wish we had a hat and badge as that would be easier. In the picture he definitely looks young, perhaps even born around or after 1900 and lied about his age to enlist in Britain. That happened a lot.
Will keep looking. The Canadian military records and Attestation papers are usually in pretty good shape with not a lot of transcription errors so if he was in the Canadian military we should be able to find him. Another possiblity is he was born in Canada and the family went stateside or to another country.
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There's nothing to note in the 1911 English census other than some of the Charles-s whose births and other details I posted above, unfortunately. The Charles William Stavely I mentioned is with his parents in Newcastle, an insurance clerk aged 15.
FindMyPast does show a Charles Staveley born abt 1885 in overseas military in India:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X7VW-S2S
The image is available at FindMyPast and should indicate what regiment he was in.
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?4
I wish we knew how anneelaine knows his age, among other things ...
Re the Charles William STAVELY -- he was in WWI in the Royal Army Medical Corps; Anc'y shows a medal card for him.
There are two cards for the name, with different medals, and the other one indicates that the medals were returned because they were claimed in error, so it looks like there was a mix-up.
Both have the same info on them (private RMAC, reg number 64856, but the one with the return notation is spelled STAVELY with a notation saying Staveley, and the other one is spelled STAVELEY with a notation saying Stavely.
But the only Charles W Stavel*y born in England/Wales 1880-1900 was the one I noted, so was there actually another one??
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There are a lot of questions on this thread, aren't there? I'm adding another one, sorry.
I've posted a couple of photos on RootsChat. In both cases, my original is actually better quality than the posted image. Is it possible, anneelaine, to see the letters on the "shoulder title"? When scrutinizing my own family photo, I used a magnifying glass to determine a coin in a photo, and it helped.
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For info:
The birth of a Charles Staveley was registered in March quarter 1897 in Bridlington. He died in 1981 in Scarborough (dob 1 December 1896).
Anc tree gives a Charles Staveley born March 1897 in North Burton, Bridlington, E. Yorks.
Son of John Staveley Moody ??? 21 Dec 1869 in Speeton, Bridlington, E. Yorkshire
and died 7 Apr 1929 in Scarborough, Yorkshire North Riding and mother Margaret Ann Vickerman - Birth Oct 1872 in Hunmanby, Bridlington, E. Yorks and died Jun 1960 in Scarborough, Yorkshire North Riding.
They appear in Scalby St Lawrence. Scarborough in the 1901 census under Staverey (someone has made the correction)
John Staverey 31 Margaret Ann Staverey 28 Nellie Staverey 7 years born March 1894 in Speeton, Bridlington, E. Yorks and Charles Staverey 4
further children born to the couple Florence Mary Staveley 1902 and Ronald in 1907.
Sandra
Added This particular Charles was a Waggoner (farm) in 1911
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While "family tales" sometimes are not correct, sometimes there is a ring of truth. If he was a violin maker, I might guess that it was an occupation that was either carried down, or that he possible learned at a young age as an apprentice? Would we be able to find an family members who might have had that trade, or something similar?
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In 1911 a Walter Staveley, 34, in Lancs, was a musician. That's the closest I find, and that couple had only married in 1906. In 1901, Anc'y calls him Spanley, and there is no Charles in the family. But father James is a musical instrument dealer. Could be promising.
My gr-grfather was a piano tuner in the census when he was 13 and later a musician. But that was a generation before our Charles, and he might have been a little young in 1911 to be in the trade yet.
re Charles the son of John and Margaret -- John was a farm labourer in 1901.
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But I like mine better!
Charles W Stavely in 1901 (Ancy' calls him Charles Don Staveley) in Newcastle -- his father Charles is a Pianoforte Tuner! born in France, age 39.
James Staveley, the father of Walter above, was 52 in 1901, a musical instrument dealer, and born in Preston. I would not be surprised if he and Charles Sr were fairly closely related, though.
um ... how come Charles W Stavely of Newcastle has father Charles in 1901 and father John in 1911?
Huh. In 1911, he and his sister Rhoda are children of John and Mary Buddle; the children are hers.
- edit - My mistake: Mary Buddle is the widowed and remarried Mary Stavely from 1901.
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I've just realized that anneelaine did spell it STAVELY in the subject line and her first post, and after that said "Charles STAVELEY was born and lived in Canada".
I like my Charles William Stavely born in Newcastle in 1895, married in 1922, died in 1986, more all the time. ;)
Someone at the GenesReunited website has Charles Stavely and his sister Rhoda (and their father Charles born in France) in their family tree.
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FindMyPast has
C STANELY, female, born 1900, travelled Liverpool to Quebec City in 1920.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/passengerListPersonSearchStart.action?
It's off in more than one way, but I might check it out all the same!
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Passenger record for a Charles Staveley
UK Incoming Passenger List 1878-1960
Bristol,England-1914
September Royal George Date of Arrival September 2/1914
Port of Embarkation Quebec
Port At Which Passengers have Landed Avonmouth
British Reservists
Staveley Charles
3Rd E Lancs
Age 25
Country of Last Permanent Residence Canada
Country of Intended Future Permanent Residence England
This passenger record puts his DOB as 1889. The military record I mentioned previously indicates he was in the Territorial Force.
Anneelaine if you could please let us know where your mother was born that would be a great big help in finding Charles.Was she born Canada or England.
You mentioned Charles wanted to take your mom to Canada about 1922 could you please clarify this information...as I'm not sure I am following you. Are we to believe he was her father. Please help us out here....want to make sure I am understanding correctly.
Can you get a good look at the bars on his uniform...can you make out what it says. This uniform looks like it could be British.
Lilybell
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What I'm understanding is:
Charles and anneelaine's mum's mother met during the war in about 1917.
He was in the military (English? Canadian?)
They weren't married.
anneelaine's mother was born as a result of their relationship.
(I'm going to call her mother Jane for convenience.)
Either there is info about Charles on Jane's birth certificate, or Jane's mum told her things about Charles, like that he was Canadian and that he was a violin maker and maybe his age.
Charles went back home after the war or went to Canada even if he was not from Canada.
Charles returned to England, or at least went back to see Jane's mum in England, and wanted to take Jane to Canada, but did not.
I think we are pretty sure that anneelain'es mum was born in England, to unmarried parents, and her father was in the military in WWI.
That passenger record looks like that Charles had been in the reserve forces in the UK, had emigrated to Canada, and returned to England as part of a group of reservists returning to enrol in the regular forces? But how did he get to Canada, and when ...
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The uniform really does look just like this "Tommy tunic" to me, down to the patches and stitching on the upper chest. (Would Canadian uniforms have been so exactly the same?)
http://www.thehistorybunker.co.uk/acatalog/tommytunic300.jpg
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Sorry guys missed the E out a few times Steveley the right spelling. ::)
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C'mon, anneelaine.
STEVELEY?
You do mean STAVELEY?
What I've been getting at is that the name could have been STAVELY, though, and the spelling might even have varied. And it could have depended on what the person spelling it knew -- for instance, your mum's mother might have thought it was spelled Staveley, even if it was Stavely.
Really, though, spelling counts, for names, when you are asking questions, even just so we know who spelled a name how, and when.
Is there any chance you might answer the several questions that have been asked?
It was even pointed out to you in your older Genforum post that if you don't give the informatin you have, people aren't likely to be able to help.
We don't know what you know. If you want us to help, you have to tell us what you know. The story is very clear to you, but you have not told it clearly.
Was my summary correct? --
Charles and anneelaine's mum's mother met during the war in about 1917.
He was in the military (English? Canadian?)
They weren't married.
anneelaine's mother was born as a result of their relationship.
-- is that correct?
-- maybe you could just give us your mum's first name so we have a way to refer to her
Either there is info about Charles on anneelaine's mum's birth certificate, or annelaine's mum mother told her things about Charles, like that he was Canadian and that he was a violin maker and maybe his age.
-- where does the information come from?
Charles went back home after the war or went to Canada even if he was not from Canada.
Charles returned to England, or at least went back to see anneelaine's mum in England, and wanted to take her to Canada, but did not.
I think we are pretty sure that anneelain'es mum was born in England, to unmarried parents, and her father was in the military in WWI.
?
And *where* in England did all this happen? It probably doesn't really matter, as Charles would have been away from home (wherever home was) while in the military, but it could still be of interest.
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I did look at all the alternate spellings of the name Stavely/Staveley/Steveley and they are all used in the various census info so the name could be spelled any of the above at any given time.
Thank you lilybell for the passenger list info. If he left from Quebec, then I am going to assume that if Charles was born in Canada it is a good possiblity (not 100%) that it was in the province of Quebec.
The 1921 census of Canada is to be released in 2013 and perhaps that may shed more light on the elusive Chas. It could be quite some time before the transcriptions take place and it may only be head of household. We won't know until the info is actually released.
Anneelaine
It can be hard to put some information down on paper especially if some of what JaneyCanuck says is true. We are here to help you find the information you seek. Just remember that anything you can provide will help us.
Good luck in your search and I will contiue to look for information for you.
Val
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Hi
Right here we go ,
my mums name was Gladys born in Manchester 1918
her Grandmother told her all the info about Charles,
she saw him in 1922 when he came to her house she was age 4
she was told he wanted to take her to Canada to live
she was living with her grandmother and aunt ,
she did not know that at the time that her Grandmother was not her mum till she was 21 years old
Charles sent money each month for her keep to her Grandmother
I would love anyhelp
thanks anneelaine
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Thank you for letting us know the story. :)
This won't help with the search today, but it's something to keep in mind.
Are there any relatives who might have old photos or letters? Sometimes letters contain family names, and just day-to-day events (that could provide additional clues).
If Charles was sending money, he may have written letters as well. Maybe someone in the family might have even kept old birthday or Christmas cards? He obviously cared about his daughter and her mum so he could have corresponded. We have several cards, from the early 1900's. My aunt (my mum's side) saved a few and someone on my husband's side saved a few as well.
After many, many years of asking my aunt if she had any old photographs of her grandfather, one day I received a package. It contained several photographs, including a photograph of her grandfather, his children and their families. My aunt's cousin or second cousin had the photos! Might there be someone in your family, whom you may not even know, who might have old family documents?
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Hello
No one left now only my sister and myself sad to say,
thanks Anneelaine
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Hello anneelaine,
Okay here goes your mother Gladys was the daughter of Charles. Now who is Gladys mother and was she married to Charles or was it a war time romance. I want to be very sure I have the facts right...the more information no matter how small it might seem will help us all out.
We are all willing to help but you must help also. What facts about Charles do you have other than what you have posted. Did your Grandmother ever indicate a address for Charles seeing as he sent money every month for her keep. Do you have any idea when Charles died...perhaps when the money stopped
Was there a birth registration for your mom. or a baptismal record...anything which might have the father's name or residence.
So many times family stories can become tangled over the years.
Lilybell
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Hi
No address was given for him,
Annie Jones was Gladys mother born 1895 in Chester
she did not get married to him she did not want to go and live in canda
no name on birth registration just mother and baby home in Manchester not there now
Do not know when the was money stoped.
sorry not a lot to give you
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JaneyCanuck (and others?) wondered where your grandmother lived. I wonder if there might have been a military base near her home? It might help determine if Charles was in the Canadian or English military.
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anneelaine has let me know she has a bit of a reading /vision problem so we need to be patient.
I think we do have it pretty clear.
Gladys was anneelaine's mum.
Gladys's dad was Charles Staveley.
He and Gladys's mother were not married -- it was a wartime romance and it sounds as if Gladys's mother was very young.
(I think maybe we don't need to know Gladys's mother's name, since she and Charles were not married.)
Gladys had the one photo of him, that we have seen.
There is no information about him on Gladys's birth certificate, and Gladys's birth was not registered with the name Staveley.
Gladys's grandmother told Gladys that Charles was a violin maker.
(this could have been after the war)
When Charles came to see Gladys in 1922, he wanted to take her to Canada.
What we actually don't know is whether he was from Canada himself.
(either born in Canada, or born in England and had been in Canada before the war)
I think anneelaine would not know about the money sent by Charles (when it stopped) because it would have been when anneelaine's mum Gladys was a girl living with her grandmother.
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Possibly interesting.
A Daniel Staveley born 1894 in Burnley, England, enrolled in the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) in 1917:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gat3/115821a.gif
(click on it to enlarge the image when you go there)
His next of kin is his mother Annie in Montreal.
In 1901, Daniel was in Burnley with parents John and Hannah, and brother Charlie aged 13 (born about 1888).
That is the Charles born in 1887 in Burnley that I mentioned way back.
(Ann and Hannah were often interchangeable.)
In 1911 the parents and other children are in Burnley and Charles is also there separately.
However, Charles is married by 1911.
He is a cotton mill worker.
D Staveley born 1893 travelled to Monteal in 1912.
The other passengers match the family from Burnley:
H female 1968 (mother Hannah)
JT male 1866 (father John)
A female 1896
JT male 1903
Wm male 1889
That Charlie just does look a lot like the one in the passenger record lilybell posted:
British Reservists
Staveley Charles
3Rd E Lancs
Age 25
Country of Last Permanent Residence Canada
Country of Intended Future Permanent Residence England
This passenger record puts his DOB as 1889.
The military record I mentioned previously indicates he was in the Territorial Force.
That Charles's wife, Florence Maude Smith, was almost 10 years older than him.
And there are no children born to them after 1911 (assuming Smith was her birth name - no Staveley births in Burnley at all 1911-1918).
Maybe that marriage did not last and he joined his family in Canada.
There is no death to match him in England.
There is also no death for a Florence M Staveley. Nor do I see an identifiable remarriage for her under that name ... but she could have remarried under her birth name ...
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anneelaine sent me this -- I think it's good to put in the thread:
just one more thing
On the back of the photo it says
To Mrs Jones, wishing you a Happy New year from Chas Staveley. no date on it (That's mum's grandmother)
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HI
Looking at the signature it's not at all like the one on the back of the photo
anneelaine
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anneelaine, you mean the signature on the Canadian document?
That is the document for DANIEL STAVELEY.
Daniel had a brother Charles, and I think he may be your man.
Read on!
travelling to Halifax Canada in 1913 from Liverpool:
Chas STARELEY dob 1888 >>> surely a mistake for STAVELEY
If anybody has access to look at that, this could be the missing piece of the puzzle.
If this is our man, the story goes like this.
Charles Staveley was born in Burnley in 1887.
He married Florence Maud Smith in 1909.
She was older than him -- born in Burnley in 1880.
John and Hannah Staveley and their other children emigrated to Canada in 1912, leaving their married son Charles in England.
Charles joined them in 1913.
(No one accompanied him on that voyage.)
He returned to England in 1914 to join the war effort.
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JJ -- in Montreal --
who are the family in 1914/1915?
who is Robert that there is a widow of in 1918/1919?
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anneelaine you have to stop sending me private messages ;)
"Hi i can see what you are saying abot the signature.
it's just the age! the date of birth we have is 1897or 98 for Charles"
Maybe he lied.
That would be odd, though, since Gladys's mother was born in 1895, that he would want to seem younger than her ...
But that is just a story handed down, right?
Maybe Gladys's grandmother just didn't know and thought he looked younger than Annie her mother.
The other Charles I found, from the musical family, certainly fits better age-wise.
He was an insurance clerk at age 15 though, not working in the musical instruments business.
(His father was in that business and he had died.)
Violin maker ... boiler maker ... boiler maker is certainly a lot more likely, by the odds!
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I'm still not clear though -- what Montreal family? not a Staveley family?
STAVERY can only be a mistake for STAVELEY.
There is only one STAVERY birth in all the English records (and no STAVEREY).
It is in Kendal district, where there were lots of Staveleys.
BUT -- this is a common pronunciation change.
(I have a FALLOWELL whose name was sometimes FARROWELL, for example.)
So maybe we should then be looking in Canada for STAVERY.
Except ... it's gone 10 pm here and I want my supper. ;)
(I wonder what time it must be where anneelaine is -- gone 3 a.m. and she's still with us?? Go to bed!)
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John Thomas was the name of Charles from Burnley's father (and brother).
You saw my info about the passenger records and 1891/1901 censuses too?
John Thomas Staveley married Hannah Winter 1884 Burnley.
anneelaine, if these are the right people, they are your great-grandparents.
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JaneyCanuck
Where did you see the passenger list for 1913 going to Halifax?
Is the name of the ship posted.
Is it on An***ry.
Lilybell :) :)
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passenger list -- at findmypast
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/passengerListPersonSearchStart.action
I don't pay for access -- if somebody does, I expect it will say he is going to join his parents in Montereal.
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Thank you so much everyone,
I wish my mum was here to hear this
thanks A ;D
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On A* there is a Charles looks like it could be Staveley to me but transcribed as Stanley, age 25, aboard the Canada, Liverpool to Halifax, arriving January 13, 1913. He is a weaver and going to assured employment (to parents weavers) in Valleyfield, Quebec.
Susan
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My Mum told me a few things that I had forgot about, and with you saying about his name it made me think O dear somethink about he did not like his name with it been common cannot think!! its gone again
I know he got my gran a book on grammar for a xmas gift ::)
A
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It's just a theory so far ... we have to work on finding some of those Staveleys in Canada (and would pass on information privately).
I wish my dad were here so I could tell him all the things he wanted to know, but he died in 2003, and some of the info it has taken me until this year to track down ... But I did get in touch with his mythical cousin the famous musician just this summer (turns out he really is a famous musician, and he actually is my dad's first cousin), and got a picture of my great-grandparents I thought I'd never see, from 1907. At least I did find out that his father's military records, which was what he was trying to find out about just before he died, have not even been released yet because he stayed in the military and went on to do dreadful things in Ireland after the war. I wish I could tell him, though, how his dad had been drummed out of the Dragoon Guards before that, at the age of 16, for fencing stolen goods!
He would not have been surprised. ;)
All we can do is be glad we know now, and pass the information on so it isn't lost again ...
edit -- susano -- that will be the man!
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*
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It would be good to tell my boys about it all ,
My son who looks like Charles said if he gets married he will call his child Staveley if its a boy then i could tell him who he was and all about him.
A
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Oh well JJ -- it's all laid out there!
... All except ... Charles. ;)
It was Hannah's mother who was born in Canada (not really Canadian - born to a British soldier).
anneelaine -- I think that page may be a little hard slogging for you.
The points that relate to the family in Montreal are right at the end
- it talks about Daniel in the Canadian military in WWI
- it says where John and Hannah are buried in Montreal
Unfortunately, it really doesn't mention Charles after the censuses where he was with his parents. But we know about him now!
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I think the page JJ found is probably connected with Peter who posted in that thread at genforum:
http://www.genforum.genealogy.com/stavely/messages/28.html
You should sign up at the page JJ posted and post in the forum!
It says this about your (we think) line of Staveleys:
http://www.staveley-genealogy.com/canada.htm
"By the eve of World War I part of the family of John Thomas Staveley and Hannah Winter settled in Quebec arriving from Burnley, Lancashire. The earlier origins of this Burnley line however, are as yet undetermined."
Well, we shall see what we can do about that. ;)
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I went to the Canadian Encyclopedia to see what I could find about violin making in Quebec. There were several violin makers in the province so it is entirely possible that Charles Staveley was one. Pierre Martel, father of Oscar Martel was a violin maker in L'Assomption and that is the area I found a Charle Staveley in 1962.
Lots of good work on this thread. I am off to bed and will look again tomorrow with fresh eyes.
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The one sibling of Charles who remained behind in England was Ann Jane, who married in Burnley in 1908.
She married Harry Spencer and had son Jack in 1910.
But they didn't have more kids after that ... so maybe she emigrated with the Staveleys ...
valeriec -- I just doubt that someone who was a cotton mill worker in England, from a family who were weavers in England and Quebec, would have been a violin maker before or after WWI in Canada!
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There is an entry for a Florence Staveley, age 32, previous occupation was winder, travelling aboard the Megantic arriving May 1913. She is destined to Montreal to join her husband.
This could possibly be Charles's wife joining him in Canada.
A search of canada411 for the surname Staveley returns 8 entries in Quebec.
Susan
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Aha, so Florence did come too. I wonder whether she died before or during the war -- or they just parted ways? For Charles to want to take Annie Jones back to Canada ...
Definitely her. Occupation in 1911 was winder.
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It's entirely possible that Charles and Florence remained together.
There is an entry on the Canada Voters List in 1957 for a Charles Staveley (retired) and Florence Staveley residing at 201 Metcalfe, Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm district in Quebec.
Susan
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In Montreal area in the 1920's, there were several workshops and apprentices to learn violin making. I haven't read all the way through the information on violin makers (luthiers) but it is quite interesting. He may not have been a prominent violin maker but could have worked in the trade.
So much for going to bed.
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www.staveley-genealogy.com/canada.htm
www.canada411.ca
I have modified this post to take out reference to individuals. I am leaving the websites in case they are required in future.
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Entries on Voters Lists
1945 - Charles Staveley, boilermaker and Mrs. Charles, 600 Fortune, Ste-Anne District, Quebec
1949 - Charles Staveley, boilermaker and Mrs. C., housewife, 600 Fortune, Ste-Anne District, Quebec
1957 - information in reply #66
1962 - Charles Stavely, retired, Metcalfe, Joliette; L'Assomption; Montcalm, Québec
1963 - Charles Stavely, retired, Metcalf, Joliette; L'Assomption; Montcalm, Québec
1965 - C. Staveley, retired, Metcalfe, Joliette; L'Assomption; Montcalm, Québec
Possibly wife Florence passed away between 1957 and 1962.
There may be more entries but these are all I can find. There are many transcription errors in the Voters Lists.
Susan
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I haven't followed the thread closely enough to determine if the correct man was found.
My family made a mistake many years ago when we thought we had found my mum's ancestor (who had an uncommon surname). Our ancestor and another man had the exact name, same family names handed down, born approximately the same time in approximately the same place, and left Ireland at the same time (before 1840). Our ancestor and other other man's family even settled in Ontario, Canada around the same time. There were a couple of other unusual similarities.
Our ancestor and this man were not the same person. While we do believe our ancestor was the cousin or nephew of this man, we have never been able to prove it. I now am leery of accepting facts.
But, having not read all of the great details uncovered about Charles, perhaps it is without a doubt the correct person.
:)
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Yes, you are correct Lisa...There is no "without a doubt" proof at all that this is the correct person...
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I see that Stavely births are accounted for...and Gladys's birth was not as Stavely then?
Using find on page I see this was noted by Janey. I guess it must have been sent by p.m.
The youthful look of young Charles in the army photo does make me wonder if he's the right man, but if he was in the reserves earlier in life, maybe that was an earlier photo. So many ifs
Did anyone answer the question asked by Lisa ...was there a military base near her home?
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I do not know if there was a military base in Manchester area but there was a Military Hospital
known as 2nd Western General Hospital . Perhaps the mother worked there.Just a thought .
Lilybell
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anneelaine -- do you know:
- exactly where Annie and her mother were living when Gladys was born?
- where the mother & baby home where Gladys was born was?
(Her birth would have been registered where the home was, not where her mother had lived before.)
She was registered as Gladys Jones, I am assuming, but you would not believe how many of them were registered in 1918 (or early 1919)!
The only Gladys Jones with mother named Jones, born in Lancashire, was registered in Prestwich district, sometime in April-May-June 1918.
I gather that covers parts of Manchester, so is that her?
As far as certainty -- this is why anneelaine needs to find family in Canada and hope they can tell her something about their father or grandfather or uncle, Charles Staveley.
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Hello anneelaine,
Sorry to lay some more questions on you....your head must be spinning with all the information posted.
May I ask you if you know how Annie met Charles. I am wondering if she was a VAD( Voluntary Aid Detachment)
during WW! part of the Red Cross. She would have been about the right age. Many of them worked in convalescent
homes,military hospitals,nursing assistants,cooks, ambulance drivers, etc. I know there was a military hospital the
2nd Western General Hospital in Manchester do not know if it was close to where she lived although that would not
necessarily matter.
We all have so many questions to ask you.. I would like to see you get the answers you are seeking.
My grandmother was born and raised in Essex and I still do not know anything much about her life in England before
coming to Canada in 1914. Still searching!!!!
Take care
Lilybell :) :)
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lilybell, I'm afraid that you will - literally - make anneelaine's head spin! Her reading/vision problem does just that.
I'm very sure she really has no idea how Charles and Annie, Gladys's parents met. I'm pretty sure that at this point she has told us everything she knows -- unless she can tell us exactly where Gladys's mother Annie and her mother were living at the time.
Gladys herself grew up with her grandmother, not her mother, apparently, and only found out who her parents were when she came of age.
We should keep in mind that Charles himself was from Burnley, just a few miles north of Manchester, and even closer to Prestwich which is on the northern outskirts of Manchester (if my guess is right about where Gladys was born).
There were Staveleys in Manchester at the time. He could have been stationed anywhere, and just in the area visiting family while on leave.
I would focus on locating close family in Canada, at this point, to see whether there is anyone who has actual memory of the Charles there.
It may be that the person who posted at Genforum and the person who owns the Staveley genealogy website (who could be the same person) would have some leads for that -- or there are the addresses in the phone book.
The problem is that there was a separate lot of Staveleys in Quebec, from Leicestershire, who were there much earlier -- around 1840 it seems -- and it's just as likely that any Staveleys in Quebec today are theirs:
http://www.staveley-genealogy.com/quebec.htm
Also, in the 1970s, there was an exodus of young English speakers from Quebec, so recent generations could be anywhere (mot likely Ontario or the West). And there were earlier Staveleys also in Saskatchewan and British Columbia ...
All that could be done is to contact Staveleys and ask whether they are descended from the family who arrived in 1912, or know anyone who is.
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JaneyCanuck
It was never my intention to make anyones head spin but I know mine would be after all that has been posted. Sometimes Just the smallest thing can trigger
ones memory.
I'm not totally sure that we have found Charles and we may never know for sure.I have searched high and low and just feel we are missing something.
That is my feeling and mine alone.
I believe the person for the Genforum and the person with the Staveley genealogy website could be the same person.Try contacting them would be my answer.
Lilybell
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Hello everyone.
Gladys Jones was born in Manchester will try and put my mums full BC together this weekend we found it in bits but i can see were it say father is just a line
Gladys and her mother came from Chester 45 miles from Manchester but Chester is a army town
Gladys grandfarther and grandmother were from Manchester .
A
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The date off the charles photo was 1917/1918 i a new year gift for gladys granmother the name on the photo look like london .
going to try and see what the rest says on photo.
A
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My sister said that Charles Staveley was 21/22 years old in1917
Been speaking to her today she knows no more than me apart from the age.
A
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Well have i found some news!!!!It's WW1 British Army possibly Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howards) I think that the shoulder title could say Yorkshire
Do you have a name for your grandad?
Why did they tell my mum he was from Canada i feel so sad for her now
o well i know now what next Mmmmmmm
THANKS GUYS would never have found out without you lot you do not know how much this means
anneelaine
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Prestwich i have heard that name were ?(Think)
A
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anneelaine
Well that is definately a clue......will keep on looking. Had a feeling it was a British uniform.
...any thing you can remember no matter how small will help. Keep us posted.
Lilybell :) :)
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Just found this
1911
Charles staveley
Birth:
abt 1897 - city, York, England. right age
Residence:
date - city, Yorkshire-North Riding, England
Census & Electoral Rolls 1911 its with
Ancestry so will go take a look on Fri my friend has it on her laptop so maybe i can find out a bit more
Anneelaine
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So going back a ways to square one... Lillibell's initial find, the WW1 military file for a Charles Staveley born 1897. Was he disproven?
I know someone checked the censuses for the 2 Yorkshire births around that time frame, but they were spoken for, can't remember in what capacity...
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Way to go anneelaine....sounds promising.
Checked out the uniform and the came accross a picture of someone in a Yorkshire Regiment uniform and the
shoulder titles as they were called looked the same and found on another site they were in curved brass up until 1924.
They said York or E York or W York.....there were also Territorial Titles.
Yorkshire Regiment was abreviated Yorks.
I will take another look at the WW1 attestation papers for Charles.
With your find I feel confident we will piece this all together
Lilybell :)
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This is the problem with very long threads ... we lose track of what was posted in them back at the beginning or in the middle ...
Charles Staveley c1897 living in Yorkshire, born in North Burton, was a wagonner on a farm.
His birth was registered in March quarter 1897 (could have been born in late 1896) in Bridlington registration district.
Unfortunately there was also a Charles Henry Staveley born in the same district, in Burton Fleming, a couple of years earlier. That one married in 1915. In 1911 he, believe it or not, was also a waggoner on a farm, but he was living on his family's farm.
I don't see a marriage or death that could be identified as the Charles c1897, but it isn't possible to know for sure, because the name is not too uncommon and he could have gone elsewhere after the war. (Is there an address in the military file for him at the time of his discharge, or where his medals were sent?)
anneelaine -- what was Annie Jones's mother's name?
(and father's name if you know)
There was an Annie E Jones living in Burnley, born c1895, with parents Lewis and Sarah Jane, who was a cotton weaver.
If that were your Annie, it would certainly explain how she could have met the Charles Staveley from Burnley who had gone to Canada.
What did your Annie do after she had Gladys?
Did she marry?
Do you know when and where she died?
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HELLO
we have found him Reg No 2917, Driver, Teritorial RFA, North Riding Depot
and 771626, RFA
In yorkshire Do not know why my mum was told canada Why do this to her familys
thank you so much ( thinking were do i go from here!!!) :)
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anneelaine, I am very confused.
Why have you all of a sudden decided that this is the right Charles Staveley?
We don't actually know what regiment the Charles Staveley who went to Canada was in, so we don't know whether he too might have been in the Yorkshire regiment, for starters.
It seems very odd to me that we would completely ignore one of the few things your mother was told -- that her father was from Canada and wanted to take her to Canada -- and pick another Charles Staveley who doesn't seem to fit that.
Unless he too went to Canada. ;)
Can you tell us about Annie please -- her parents' names?
And if you want to tell us -- her husband's name if she married?
(this can help figure out where she was during WWI and so how she might have met her charles)
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I think she would have meet Charles in Chester there is a army base here called the dale.
her father was call william passed away in 1908
thanks A
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The military record for Charles mentioned just above has his signature in, I think, 3 places and this could be used to compare with the writing on the back of the picture.
PB
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So anneelaine
... since Annie's father was not living in 1911
... it is her mother's name that is needed ...
Looks like the Yorkshire guy may be him and the Canada guy a pure coincidence, I guess.
I would still just like to locate Annie to know a bit more about her.
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I think her name was Margret nee sankey
i got her name somewere will look for it
A
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I think they told her Canada to stop her looking for him.
A
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Another bit of information concerning Charles Staveley.
His attestation papers indicated that he joined in Scarborough.
Found on A****y the following
England & Wales Death Index 1916-2006
Record for Charles Staveley
DOB 1 Dec 1896 District Scarborough Vol 2 Page 2159
DOD 1981 84 years
I think this is him.... need to check for a marriage... if he married.
Lilybell
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William Jones and Margaret Ann Sankey married in Chester in 1891.
He was born in Manchester. In 1901, the family is in Chester:
William 40
Margaret 40
Pollie 10 (real name Mary)
William 9
> Annie 7 (about 1893-4)
Fred 3
That's them?
So Chester, not Manchester. Margaret is still in Chester in 1911 but Annie is not with her.
Annie is in North Manchester in 1911 I think, though. A servant in the household of an Inspector of the RSPCA.
The Dale base in Chester would make sense it seems.
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re the death in Scarborough
Yes -- and the only marriage I had thought possible was the one to Rhoda Barker in Scarborough in 1927.
There were two births to that marriage -- people who could posibly still be living.
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familysearch has this record I'd also been looking at yesterday:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KC7L-DMW
Charles Staveley, dob 1897, Yorkshire
Merchant Navy Records 1921-1941 -- but we don't know the exact dates he was in the merchant navy, I think. That could mean that he began in 1921. The records end at 1941.
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of the two children
- the son appears to have been on the electoral roll until 2004 -- very unfortunately, he likely died after 2005 (the last year we can check the index) -- he married in 1951 and probably had two children
- the daughter married in 1962 and probably had three children
Will look for more details (that could be provided privately) after I do some things I have to do!
IF that was the correct Charles Staveley, those two children are/were Gladys's half-siblings.
And their children are anneelaine's half-cousins.
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On A***ry
Another marriage for a C Staveley m H M Berryman July/Aug/Sept 1955 Scarborough Yorkshire North Riding
Could have been widowed and remarried...just a thought
Lilybell
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lilybell -- there are likely births to that marriage in the 1950s (the bride was born in the 1930s) so I doubt it is our Charles, and as the parties are very possibly living, I'd delete that info.
- edit - the parties ARE living (2012 electoral roll) and really would not be our couple, and the info really should be deleted.
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Let's let the people looking into the army connection finish their work so we don't go chasing red herrings.
The army uniform was the only good solid lead...and it needs to be sorted out for some truths.
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I don't really understand why you would do that ... there is no personal information there about anyone now living or likely even any parent of anyone now living.
The easy way to save all the info in a thread is to click the "print" button in the upper right of the thread and that will show the whole thing.
I don't see us having proof positive of who Charles was, as yet.
The Yorkshire one has no apparent connection to Canada, and not a batman -- or a violin maker! so yes, all of that info could have been false. But we don't know.
I don't really know what you mean by red herrings (although I agree that the second marriage suggested is one, and I am hoping that info will be deleted).
If my reference to the marriage and children of the Yorkshire Charles Staveley is a red herring, it would only be because that Charles Staveley is a red herring himself!
The only way that anneelaine is going to be *sure* of who her Charles was is to find a living relation who knows the story of their Charles and then be able to match it to the story of hers.
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Hi guys...
I was ever so happy to work with some of the Canadian rootschatters when I had a spare bit of time.... Especially those of you who really care, find a thread and dig in...
I do have to say that someone like valerie probably should have taken the helm on this one...as we needed to dig into the military aspect... That's why I asked her and polarbear to join in.
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I wonder what that means ...
As to the army uniform being the only good solid lead -- as I understand it, *both* the Charles Staveley who went to Canada and the Charles Staveley from Yorkshire were in the UK military during WWI, so I don't know how associating one of them with the uniform would rule the other out ...
If it is generally accepted now that the Yorkshire CS is the man, and I'm not disagreeing that he probably is, what is it that is needed on "the military aspect" now?
I just wasn't aware that anybody "took the helm" when someone posts at this site. Is there an election process? ;)
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Sorry for the second marriage posting....have been out most of the day.
How does one go about deleting something posted...any help welcome.
The WW1 attestation papers for Charles that I sent on to anneelaine are most certainly the right Charles.
She has stated the signature matches that on the back of her photo . I consider that concrete proof.
Because Charles was in the Territorial Force not sure how one finds out more on him. His attestation papers are damaged
part of Burnt Papers. Not sure if his file is complete.Perhaps she should consider posting on the Military Board for WW1.
There are a lot of people out there very know ledgable on military matter...probably much more than us.
Further to Charles being in Canada from the passenger list I posted earlier not sure if that is him because the age is out
by 8 years. Anneelaine has indicated the story about Charles being from Canada was untrue
Are we not all here to try and help anneelaine find her family...enough squabbling ladies.
Lilybell
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Hello Just been looking again found a Charles Staveley on a forces war records page its says he was a serjeant?do not know what this is
He was in the Green Howard's? i cannot get anymore on this
The guy on the rootschat army said it look like he was in the Green Howards.
A
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lilybell -- to delete something in a message, just click the "modify" button in the upper right of the message, make the changes you want, and click "save".
The thing is, anneelaine doesn't know any more than we do what was true and what wasn't! :D
I haven't looked at the military aspect thread, but I guess I'll leave it all for now.
I was just wondering whether anneelaine and I are cousins -- did you see the SANKEY in my signature line, anneelaine??
But I traced her Margaret Ann Sankey back to her father who was born in Lancashire, and it seems there is a crowd of them there going back to the 1200s. Mine were in Kent in the 1600s, and may have come from Ireland ... but perhaps our greatx15 grandfathers were cousins.
;)
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I think that everyone here has done a lot of work on behalf of Anneelaine and I would like to commend everyone on their efforts. If we have been able to help her rule out a Charles in Canada and find another in England I think that is great. When we all started this search it was on very little information that was given and through the hard work of all the researchers on this thread I think we have helped her to hopefully be closer to finding her Charles Stavely. We research using the information that is given and post what we find. Sometimes the information given is factual and sometimes it is proven false. That is all part of the research process. We all put in a lot of hours researching on this forum and I believe the purpose of this forum is for all of us to work together and share our resources to help the poster find information. I think that the information about the signature in the last post from lilybell confirms that she has found the correct Charles. Great work lilybell. I love the fact that all the information was posted on this one thread rather than having to go back and forth through various threads. I am hopeful that some really good researcher with knowledge of Great Britain will continue to help Anneelaine and bring her closer to finding some living relatives.
Good luck with your continued research.
Val
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Well said valeriec. I for one have found this a great chance to prove what myself and all others posters can do when we all pull together.
Lilybell :) :) :)
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No words can say how much this means to me
I would just like to say Thank you to you all
Anneelaine
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What I had meant to say, from tracing the family back:
Annie Jones, Gladys's mother, born c1894 in Newton le Willows, Lancashire, grew up in Chester.
The family is in Chester in 1901, and Annie's widowed mother Margaret Ann (Sankey) Jones is there in 1911 -- Annie is a nursemaid in North Manchester.
The birth of Gladys E Jones was registered in Chester in March quarter 1918.
So the Dale military base does make sense, if that helps anyone checking the military aspect.
And the time of the birth (late 1917/early 1918) may help for that purpose as well.
(anneelaine -- it would help if you would confirm the date of birth, maybe)
I am going to send anneelaine some info privately for contacting descendants of the Yorkshire Charles when the time seems right, if and when that is the case.
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Hi
Gladys was born Jan 1918 so i will try and take a look at the dale for early 1917
A
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Great that the right person was found!
Lillybell found a great deal and yet was admonished by Janey who herself made huge confusing posts...and who by saying she'd proven us wrong made this into a giant novel...which I don't think the family of the Canadian fellow ever needs to read...
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Hi
Gladys was born Jan 1918 so i will try and take a look at the dale for early 1917
A
That birthdate matches the registration, so Chester it was.
I have sent you information about this Charles's descendants and living family members and contact information for one of his great-grandchildren. There is a possibility that one of his children is living.
JJ, if you have something to say to me, that's what the private message system is for.
If you have something to say about me, I suggest you say it to someone interested by private message as well.
I have been in contact with anneelaine privately throughout this, and if she had some problem with what I was doing -- she being the person who matters -- I assume she would have said so.
I DID NOT SAY I HAD PROVED ANYONE WRONG. Your assertion that I did is false (care to quote me?) and extraordinarily offensive. (At one point, following the "violin maker" trail, I did find two probably interrelated families engaged in the musical instruments trade / music profession, one of the multiple stories that needed checking, and joked about how I was liking them -- lighten up.)
We were set off on the Canada connection route by the information provided, and I followed that path.
The only way to find a person is to identify all possibilities and systematically rule each one IN or OUT.
It now seems that virtually all the information anneelaine's mother was given
- Charles from/to Canada
- Charles a violin maker
was false; there was no reason, at the outset, to think that the age/DOB she was told for him was any more true than the other tales. ALL information "known" about a person has to be investigated, and in this case that meant taking a sceptical approach to the Canada story, the violin story, AND the age story.
"which I don't think the family of the Canadian fellow ever needs to read... "
... and the family of the Yorkshire fellow??
(I will actually delete some of what I have said here in that regard, after a while, for that reason -- in fact, once anneelaine has copied all of what is here, she should maybe request that the thread itself be deleted, in view of the subject matter and the fact that there are many living family members of the person now generally agreed to be the person concerned.)
I have been doing this a long time and with great success for many appreciative people, and I do not need to be moralized at by you or anyone.
Thank you.
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Thank you will take a look now ;D
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You mentionned specifically the "Green Howards". They do have a regimental museum. Consider contacting them to see if they could verify that the uniform is one of theirs. If you scanned the photo at a higher resolution the details of buttons etc. would be easier to see.
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THANK YOU WILL GIVE IT A TRY.
A
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Hello going to get photo scanned at a higher resolution the details of buttons hopefully on Mon
thanks A
Been thinking!!!!Do you all think that they could have made it all up? just to keep her quite! But saying that when we went to my grans house after my step grandfather passed away she had put the same sort off photo in her living room :(
ok had to say that get it off my mind
THANKS YOU GUYS
Anneelaine
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anneelaine
How sad if they did that...perhaps her family did not want her to move and take Gladys with her...we will probably never know for sure.
I have done a wee bunch more inquiring on one of the military boards and got a reply back stating they were certain that Charles was not with the "Green
Howards" I will still keep looking though and will pass on anything I find. Look forward to a better picture.
Lilybell :) :) :)
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THANK YOU :)
A
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I Have been thinking! i know now that Annie was working in Chester in ww1 at William Williams i think it was called making things for the war i can see her telling me to never work in a factory,
so it would have been Chester she meet CS IN 1916/1917.
I have asked for info to who was at Chester at that time
thanks A
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"Been thinking!!!!Do you all think that they could have made it all up? just to keep her quite!"
They told her when she was 21 years old, correct? They may have intentionally made it up. Or, they may have forgotten (on purpose, or not) the details and tried to "reconstruct" his life. Or, HE may have made it up.
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1 was thinking that But then i remembered the photo in the living room after my step granddad Passed away
Why would she bring it out next to her beloved swans I was about 13 at the time and just love her swans. so i saw them a lot ,she was always saying put them down ::) but i never said anythink .
Also my son looks like Charles same chin and mouth nose and the blond hair, and my mum got his mouth plu my son can play most Instrument without much bother I cannot play a thing or my husband :)
So that brings me back to saying i got to try and find him ( his family ).
A
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Yes she was 21 her mother did not want her.
A
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No i do not think he would make it up because he wanted to take her away with him,
her mother was married by this time but when he call around to the house to speak about it to her granmother and aunty
and they told her he wanted her to go to canada with him
A
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For 21 years she did not know her mum was her grandmother and her cousins were her sisters.
A
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anneelaine
The name of the factory was William & Williams Reliance Works Chester. It was a munitions factory.
No wonder she did not want you to work in a factory...life was very hard and dangerous work making weapons and
shells for the British Army. As a matter of fact women produced 80% of all bombs and shells..
Lilybell :o :o
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That's it.
It's funny when you start to think about things other bits pop up as well
i sure their was a other army camp in Chester as well as the dale
called not sure found it Sighting Camp Chester
A
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I am glad to hear that a bunch of bits and pieces are starting to come together...funny how that happens.
Lilybell ;D ;D
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Going to take my photo on Mon to Cheshire Military Museum see if no anythink will let you know
A
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What a great idea....they should be able to help.
Lilybell
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Sorry I've been awol, anneelaine. Still kind of sick.
I'm confused. The email you sent me about the person you contacted -- that was not one of the people I had identified as the probable family members of the CS born in Yorkshire in 1896 (birth registered in March quarter 1897).
If we recall from way back at the beginning when I listed the two closest births for the name Charles Staveley and the details you had (i.e. his age), there was another CS born in the same registration district in February 1894, with middle name Henry. (He was born in virtually the same place, as it turns out, and had the same occupation in 1911 -- they were obviously related somehow.)
I am pretty sure that the person you contacted was actually a family member of the CS born in 1894 -- not of the CS born in 1896. (I have sent you details of the probable family line.)
I'm don't know how you identified him and got the contact info for him ...
I hope you going to contact the person I identifed for you as almost certainly a family member.
I still think the only way you are going to know details of that CS's life, to see whether they match with anything you know about your CS, is to talk to the known family of the CS we are thinking was yours -- the one born in 1896 (not 1894).
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Been ringing the CS 1997 but never in, :( will keep going with it later to night
A
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Ah, good -- I wouldn't want to give up on that CS as a result of a CS mix-up with the first guy you called! ;)
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O no not at all.
Thanks A ;D
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If i cannot get him on the phone today i will send a photo to his address and ask him if it his his
Gt Gt Grandfather.
A
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:) Do ask me why i phoned him i do not know,
But after speaking to him it was so strange !!
First i ask did he have any family called CS he say yes his father he was 1 off 14
then did he know anythink about Canada he said that his father was going when he was younger but never went,
them did he have anything wrong with his foot he said he did
club food but it was not that bad till he got older and then he was in the army.
very strange but CS he got married 1915 born 1894
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Also my gt nice has just been born with a bit of a club foot strange ::)
A
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HELLO
Here we go again
Right the guy who we sold are flat too was from Canada that was 6 years ago
Now i am back home we called into see him,
We ask him to take a look at the photo right away he said it was a Canadian uniform !!!!!the guy said he could take a copy of it back home after Xmas if i wanted as his family new people that maybe could help.anyway .
Have emailed 2 off the guys i was given and also phoned up again the main one we think is his family
I hope they get back to me
One more thing My sister said that our mum had told her that he did not like his first name!!! do you think maybe he had change it ,
we know that he called himself Chas as that's on the back off the photo
(Just thinking out loud )
also she said that he was very arrogant and did not like the way my gran spoke (Cheshire accent )
A.
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anneelaine, don't be relying on your Canadian acquaintance's opinion about the uniform.
As we have seen, it is hard even for people in the know to distinguish WWI uniforms.
The one in the photo would probably look to him like a Canadian uniform ... because it does. ;)
And because Canadian uniforms are the ones that he would have seen before.
If he were to see a British uniform from WWI, he probably would not be able to tell them apart either.
If your fellow had been in the Canadian military, he would show up in the CEF attestation papers database. (We did not suffer losses of those records the way England did in WWII.)
If he really wasn't going by his real name, I don't know that we stand a chance! And the whole thing just becomes more confusing ...
For names that someone might not have liked, born around the right time, the only one I see is Enos Staveley. There were a few of them, in what seems to be a bit of a long line of Enos-s, and it's a little confusing - all in Lancashire. One was born in 1896 in Chorley reg dist and seems to have married in 1925 and died in 1945 in Haslingden reg dist. In 1911 he was an engraver's labourer, son of an engraver, so not especially posh.
Maybe we'll have to reconsider one of my musical Staveleys from way back ...
WWI medal cards are a good way to tell whether someone was in the military, even if their records did not survive. The Staveleys in the list include several Charles-s, that Enos, and the odd other odd name, like Elijah, and also a lot with just initials.
I dunno, what with the snooty attitude and giving your gran (that's Annie, the mother of his daughter?) a grammar book for Christmas, the "violin maker" story is starting to sound more plausible.
;) (My grandfather the son of the musician was certainly snooty when he married my grandmother; he made her change her given name because hers was too "common" for him.)
Let's hope that the person you are trying to contact who is descended from the Charles who had been settled on will respond and know about that Charles, or put you in touch with an older family member who would.
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Was the Cheshire Military Museum any help in identifying the uniform? Since this is the one definite you have in family history I would definitely not drop trying to identify his uniform. There are other forums that specifically cater to military history that might also be of help.
If he didn't like his first name and went by his 2nd name it doesn't mean that his given name was something uncommon. He could have been christened a very ordinary name such as William and just didn't like it. If your Charles was born in Britain his birth might also be registered without any reference to Charles appearing in the registration.
A family story about his personality might add flavour to your family history but means nothing in tracing facts and generalizations about professions and attitudes going hand in hand tends to muddy the waters of fact finding. This is my opinion not meant to start an argument on this thread.
When you start contacting livng relatives, who may or may not be related, bear in mind that some families hand down their stories and history and others do not. Even in the same family what one person knows their siblings might not have any knowledge of. It all depends on who was interested enough in the older generations stories to listen and remember.
I still think I would pursue the identification of the uniform as your one solid lead.
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:) Thanks for that will do
Going today to see if i can find out who was based at the Dale from 197/1918
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Good morning anneelaine,
Good luck with the museum.
As to the uniform I would bet my last dollar that it is a british uniform 5 buttons.
Family stories can get so embellished as they get passed down. Sometimes the final result
is only partially the truth..... am keeping my eyes on your search... hope it turns out to be fruitful.
Cheers
Lilybell :) :) :)
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A family story about his personality might add flavour to your family history but means nothing in tracing facts and generalizations about professions and attitudes going hand in hand tends to muddy the waters of fact finding. This is my opinion not meant to start an argument on this thread.
Perhaps someone thought I was suggesting that anneelaine go looking for "a family story about his personality"...
Quite obviously, I have been suggesting that anneelaine look for family members who know, in particular, the military record of their own Mr. Staveley and his whereabouts during the period in question (around April 1917, and before and after) -- so that it can be investigated to see whether it matches what anneelaine's family knows about their Mr. Staveley.
I have provided anneelaine privately with very specific information about family members of Charles Staveley born in December 1896 (birth reg early 1897) in Bridlington reg dist in Yorkshire, the one who seems to best match her own family's information/stories, at least according to the consensus in this thread.
It is quite possible that the family of "the real Mr. Staveley" might have the exact same photograph in their possession -- or at least a photograph that could be compared for likeness. That would be the very best proof of identity, I would think.
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Have had a close look at my own rellie in his CEF (Canada) uniform and there appear to be several distinct differences between it and the 'Charles' uniform.
My CEF uniform appears to have buttons that were all the same size; there appears to be a lack of a rifle patch above the upper pocket which appears to be something British uniforms had; Canadian forces generally had collar insignia identifying their units and often in the shape of a maple leaf; shoulder insignia seem to generally say Canada on them along with, perhaps, their unit.
You can google around the internet to find general examples and descriptions of the uniforms of both forces.
I too agree that the identification of the country of the 'Charles' uniform should be a top priority.
PB
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I agreed a long time ago (see the picture I linked to, of a "Tommy tunic") that the uniform looks British -- particularly, as I noted, because of the shoulder patch and adjacent stitching, which do not appear on Cdn uniforms.
Hopefully, a straightforward way of confirming this can be found.
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Ladies let us hope the Museum will be able to shed some accurate light on Charles picture.
I would think they would be the best place to start. We have a Military Museum not too far from where I live
and they are very knowledgeable in these matters. We also have a library archivist who is most helpful.
Fingers crossed anneelaine receives some good news.
Lilybell :) :)
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Thanks everyone will let you know how I get on.
I have not heard from any off them yet.
A
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Hello I am back again with Charles Staveley .
Had confirmation back that the 2 photo's and letters i sent to the family's in Yorkshire were not my Charles Staveley, I was so sure one of them would be the right family
So i am at it again .
Anneelaine
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I have just found this i know he is call John but i know my mum said he did not like his name Just a thought STAVELEY John Adult M 1919 Liverpool Canada Halifax.
My mum always called him Charles ( my mum told us that she was told from her mother that his name was not suitable for him I think he was a bit of a snob
Charles staveley photo is signed Chas Staveley.
Anneelaine
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Hello again Anneelaine
Took a look at the passenger list for John Staveley but don't think this is who you are looking for.
First off did you notice he was traveling with 4 others Doris age 15,Ernest age 13,Ronald age 12 and Alice no age. They were going to Lac La Biche Alberta.
All born in England. John was pretty young only 17 think the children could have been siblings.
Did some looking around in Alberta but did not see any information on them.
Did not see any records for them in British Birth records on A******ry Maybe they lied about their ages.
Will keep looking.
Sorry your leads did not pan out on your earlier search for Charles.
Lilybell :-\ :-\
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Have you followed up and taken your photo (or emailed it) to a military museum and asked them to identify the uniform? Important to find out as much about that as possible. Identifying where he served is important.
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Hi There is a place in Chester I have been told to take the photo so will do this week thanks
Thanks lilybell I will keep trying.
Anneelaine
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Please do followup and take your photo in. With their help we might be able to do more for you. At the moment it seems that all we can offer is speculation.
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Hi Anneelaine,
Staveley from Canada here. I was wondering if you had solved the mystery of your Charles Staveley. I ask because I just came upon this thread and some of the details you have been giving about your Charles are very similar to my Great Uncle Charles. If you are still looking message me so we can compare notes.
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;D Hi' I would like to thank you all for all your help I have now found Charles Staveley I had the date of birth wrong he was born in 1888/9 also he was a violin player, not maker and he was in the army as a batman, He lived Canada but came from the UK so know I have a new family and now know who my mother looks like lol her Dad at long last; just wish she had met him again Thank you so much each and everyone of you
Anneelaine
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Hi Anneelaine
Very happy to hear that you have found Charles Stavely. I do like a happy ending.
Lilybell
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Thank you Lilybell you were so helpful.