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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Manchester Rambler on Tuesday 31 May 05 23:14 BST (UK)
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Hello Folks,
May is over (at least here in France it's just past midnight), so now you can cast all the clouts you please, if it will help you concentrate on the the new June Challenge! A suitable subject has been generated by 4 state-of-the-art random number generators (better known as Yves, Jacques, Joëlle and Laurianne), and the lucky winner is.... (dramatic pause and drum roll)...
Allan Robertson - found at RG11/3646 Folio 97 Page 50 on the 1881 census.
For newcomers to the monthly challenge, the aim is to see how much we can discover about Allan before the end of the month - ancestors, siblings, descendants, occupation, lifestyle... He was genuinely chosen at random, and may have died the day after the census, in which case we'll work on his family!
The game is afoot - good hunting to you all!
Rambler
A summary of the information gathered so far can be found at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.0.html
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Rambler,
I'm afraid to say we're off to a bit of a dodgy start. I think the reference is RG11/3646 Folio 97 Page 50
So glad you've chosen an Allan :)
Regards,
Allan
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I did say it's past midnight here.... Sorry, I'm having a bad week! Correction duly noted.
MR
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OK now with something more constructive:
1891 Census, Alderley Road, Little Meals?, Chester
RG12/2877 Folio 11 Page 15
Mary M ROBERTSON, Head, Wid, 47, b. London Limehouse
Claude ROBERTSON, Son, S, 23, Shipschandler's Clerk, b. Surrey, Peckham
Alan ROBERTSON, Son, S, 18, Cotton Brokers Apprentice, b. Camberwell
Margaret ROBERTSON, Dau, S, 14, b. Camberwell
Allan appears to have lost an "L" by 1891. I wonder where poor little 4 year old Margaret was in 1881?
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So... only the two household residents in 1881:
Al(l)an aged 8 and his mother Mary M, a widow at 37 (annuitant) living at 26 High Park Street, Toxteth, Liverpool.
This is going to be an interesting story!
Paul
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And Robertson Ship Chandlers score quite a few hits on Google - apparently in the Limehouse area of London in the 19th century.
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This could be some of Alan's family in 1881 including sister Margaret.
RG11/3643 22 38
11 South Hill Road, Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
Augusta Robertson 20 Bromley, Middlesex, England Niece
Augusta J. Robertson 47 Stepney, Middlesex, Wid Sister in Law
Charles M. Robertson 25 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Son
George Robertson 61 Wapping, Middlesex, Wid Head Ship Chandler
Margaret Robertson 4 Camberwell, Surrey, England Niece
Mary D. Robertson 16 Bromley, Middlesex, England Niece
Sarah Wood 33 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Servant
Mary E. Batty 24 Warrington, Lancashire, England Servant
Debbie ;)
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Allan's brother in 1881?
RG11/3306 68 2
35 Gateford Road, Worksop, Nottinghamshire, England
Claude Robertson 13 London Camberwell, London, Middlesex, Boarder, School Boy
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Little Meals is probably Little Meols ::)
Annie
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deleted
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Hang on a second, why are we looking in London?? The challange is to find Allan Robertson from Liverpool
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lets start again
the original 1881 census record
Allan ROBERTSON Household
Male
Birth Year <1873>
Birthplace Camberwell, Surrey, England
Age 8
Occupation Scholar
Marital Status
Head of Household Mary M. ROBERTSON
Relation Son
Source Information:
Dwelling 26 High Park St
Census Place Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3646 / 97
Page Number 50
Is Liverpool in Lancashire??
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Ok heres Alan's birth and marriage records - from FreeBMD
Births Dec 1872
Robertson Alan Camberwell 1d 670
Marriages Sep 1898
Muir Charlotte Georgina D Toxteth Park 8b 422
Robertson Alan Toxteth Park 8b 422
And from IGI we get the marriage details - with a wrong POB?
Husband
Alan Robertson
Birth: 21 OCT 1872 Of, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Christening:
Marriage: 14 JUL 1898
Death: 08 OCT 1942 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Burial:
Wife
Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir
Birth: 29 DEC 1867 , , At Sea
Christening:
Marriage: 14 JUL 1898
Death: 30 AUG 1913 Tupelo-Rice, Navarro, Texas
Burial:
Father: James Muir
Mother: Charlotte Maria Ann Jenkins Wilkinson King
Children
Douglas Muir Robertson
Male
Birth: 09 JAN 1900 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Christening:
Death: 02 OCT 1942
Burial:
Interesting that the wife died in Texas - did the family move there?
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Alan died in Liverpool
Death index shows
Alan Robertson age 69 Dec Qtr Liverpool S (south?) 8b 107
No mention of Douglas' death in the same Qtr at least not in england.
It was WW2 at the time. Wonder if Douglas was KIA?
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I can't find a suitable Al(l)an Robertson in the 1901 census so maybe he had moved to Texas in 1900.
I did find a death of a suitably aged Alan Robertson in 1893 in Pancras, London, but your find in the IGI looks more likely.
It looks like a user provided data entry than from Parish records? Which would make it more likely that some of the details could be incorrect.
Maybe the "of Liverpool, Lancashire" means where he was living when he got married.
I think Liverpool probably was in Lancashire at some point but now is it's own county like London or Birmingham? But I'm from the south so am not so good at northerm geography.
Emily
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From the IGI again
Husband
Douglas Muir Robertson
Birth: 09 JAN 1900 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Christening:
Marriage: 11 JUL 1928
Death: 02 OCT 1942
Father: Alan Robertson Family
Mother: Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir
Wife
Name Unavailable
Douglas was married in 1928 but his wife's name is unavailable.
We still need to find Alan's parents :)
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Name: ROBERTSON, DOUGLAS MUIR
Initials: D M
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Commander (E)
Regiment: Royal Naval Reserve
Unit Text: H.M.S. Curacoa
Date of Death: 02/10/1942
Additional information: Husband of D.G.Robertson.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 65, 3.
Cemetery: CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL
This was on Commonwealth War Graves
Annie
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The HMS Curacoa has quite a sad story.....
It seems to have been sunk by the Queen Mary:
http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/1199.html
http://beehive.thisissouthwales.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=SiteHome&ID=9517&PageID=55728
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Here are Charlottes parents (Alan's in-laws) from the IGI
CHARLOTTE MARIA ANN JENKINS WILKINSON KING
Marriages:
Spouse: JAMES MUIR
Marriage: 13 JUN 1860 London, London, England
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Boy Digger - You're unstoppable ::) ::) ::)
Good job.........
Annie
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Hey I LOVE the challange and I'm on a roll :)
Here's Charlotte's family in the 1881 census
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation
James MUIR Head M Male 46 Bristol, Gloucester, England Sailmaker
Sarah MUIR Wife M Female 45 Bristol, Gloucester, England
Jessy MUIR Daur Female 19 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Eliza MUIR Daur Female 17 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Edward MUIR Son Male 15 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Charlotte MUIR Daur Female 13 Poplar, Middlesex, England
Charles MUIR Son Male 11 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Emily MUIR Daur Female 9 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Louisa MUIR Daur Female 6 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Agnes MUIR Daur Female 2 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Source Information:
Dwelling 50 Fern St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341110
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0498 / 57
Page Number 38
James Wife is Sarah? Mrs Charlotte Muir must have died early.
Charlotte's age looks correct - she was a few years older than Alan.
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And from the same census we get James' details
James MUIR
Male
Other Information:
Birth Year <1835>
Birthplace Bristol, Gloucester, England
Age 46
Occupation Sailmaker
Marital Status M <Married>
Head of Household James MUIR
Relation Head
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Back to Alan's parents
1901 census
Mary Robertson 57 London Limehouse Liverpool C B Toxteth Park Living On Own Means
There is the following for Claude Robertson (from 1891 census posted earlier) but I cant find anything to substantiate that this is correct.
CLAUDE ROBERTSON
Male
Birth: 28 AUG 1867
Christening: 08 MAR 1868 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, England
Death:
Burial:
Parents:
Father: JAMES ROBERTSON
Mother: MARY MARSHALL
This would fit the Mary M. Robertson (1881 census) - assuming the M is her maiden name. Of course this could be totally wrong.
And I cant find a marriage on IGI Between James Robertson & Mary Marshall. There is a marriage between James Robertson & Mary Miller in Reigate Surrey in 1868.
Midnight already? ok I'm off to bed. I will check back in 6-7 hours from the time of this post to see if any progress has been made. :)
Ciao
Burrow Digger
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1881
Is this Mary's brother in law ? is this the ship's chandler that employed the family -
looks like he's looking after another sister in law....
11 South Hill Road, Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
George Robertson 61 Wapping, Middlesex, Wid Head Ship Chandler
Charles M. Robertson 25 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Son
Augusta J. Robertson 47 Stepney, Middlesex, Wid Sister in Law
Augusta Robertson 20 Bromley, Middlesex, England Niece
Mary D. Robertson 16 Bromley, Middlesex, England Niece
Margaret Robertson 4 Camberwell, Surrey, England Niece
Sarah Wood 33 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Servant
Mary E. Batty 24 Warrington, Lancashire, England Servant
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1901
Toxteth Park Lancashire
Mary M Robertson 1844 Limehouse, London, England Head Living on own means
Margaret Robertson 1877 Camberwell, London, England Daughter
Registration district Toxteth Park
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Found Alan but no partner yet.......
Name Alan Robertson
Arrival Date 28 Nov 1919
Age 47 years
Birth Year 1872 approx
Gender Male
Background English
Port of Departure Liverpool, England
Ship Name Megantic
Port of Entry Portland, Maine
Last Residence England
Birthplace London, England
Roll Number 29
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There is the birth of a Claude Robertson registered Sep quarter 1867:
Robertson Claude Camberwell 1d 607
If Alan Robertson arrived in the states in 1919 how could his wife have died in Texas in 1913?
Do we have more than one Alan Robertson here? ???
I can find George Robertson living in Toxteth in 1871 but haven't managed to locate a Claude Robertson anywhere yet. Mybe Camberwell is too close to Lambeth :)
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Not bad for less than 12 hours! What do we have so far?
Allan was born c1872 in Camberwell.
Siblings: Claude (c1867) and Margaret (c1876)
Parents: James Robertson and Mary Marshall. (IGI extracted record for Claude's birth.
Question! Was Mary's maiden name Marshall, or should we be looking for Mary Marshall XXX, as it's not usual British practice for a wife to use her maiden name as her own middle name after marriage - census returns give her (married) name as Mary M Robertson.
The family moved from Camberwell to Liverpool (which is/was in Lancashire).
James Robertson had a brother George (ships chandler) and another brother whose wife was called Augusta J XXX.
Allan married Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir, and had a son, Douglas Muir Robertson who was killed in WW2.
Charlotte died in Texas in 1913 (IGI)
Allan travelled to the US in 1919.
Allan died in Liverpool in 1842.
On with the search!
Rambler
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Just been looking for information on chandlers, and it seems Stepney (incuding Limehouse) had a host of them.
Came across this interesting snippet on GENUKI (by way of a diversion):
The Stepney Poor-law Union comprises the parishes of Limehouse, Ratcliffe, Shadwell, and Wapping, Mile-End Old Town having its own establishment. All children born at sea are supposed to belong to Stepney, according to the old rhyme
"He who sails on the wide sea,
Is a parishioner of Stepney."
In consequence pauper's born at sea have been sent here from all parts of the country, but the recent decisions of the superior courts refuse to establish this traditional law. See also articles London, and the parishes enumerated above as once included in Stepney.
From the 1868 National Gazetteer
Paul
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1861 (might be a red herring) but ... (says Robinson on the page)
10 Mornington Road, Bromley, Middx (Poplar)
John Robinson 26 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Head
Jane Robinson 27 Stepney, Middlesex, England Wife
Geo Anglis?? Robinson 1 Bromley, Middlesex, England Son
Augusta Robinson 2 Bromley, Middlesex, England Daughter
Mary Marshal Robinson 17 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Sister-in-law
Eliza Taylor 21 Hertford, Hertfordshire, England Servant
Jane Buster 21 Stepney, Middlesex, England Servant
John is a Sail Maker and Ships Chandler.
Mary Marshal Robinson it states is Single ???
RG9/302
Folio: 194
Page: 17
jonathan
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The Augusta Robinson would fit with the one thats a niece in 1881 and maybe the Augusta J Robertson from 1881 was Augusta Jane?
I have been wondering why Claude Robertson seems to have been born in Camberwell, but christened in Stepney? And then the later children born again in Camberwell?
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I think you may be on to something here Jonathan - there's maybe some detail that's wrong, but Sail Maker/Ships Chandler is a strong link. Did you notice that Charlotte Muir's father was a Sail Maker? I get the impression we've found a maritime dynasty!
MR
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Yes, Jonathan's find of Augusta rang a bell with me - then it clicked it was DebbieD's posting of the 1881. Looks like the same person.
Still looking for Claude in 1871 - maybe he's under a middle name?
Paul
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1871 a very interesting family if this is them ... first time for James on the census?
Peter St, Claremont?, Harlow, Essex
Alexandria?? S Molison abt 1803 Scotland Head
Sarah Ann abt 1837 London, Middlesex, England Wife
Molison abt 1871 Harlow, Essex, England Son
Eliza Wils Molison abt 1848 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
Louisa Helen Molison abt 1869 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
James Robertson abt 1843 London, Middlesex, England Visitor
Mary Marl Robertson abt 1844 London, Middlesex, England Visitor
plus 4 servants
Alexandria (Alexander?) is a Ship Owner
James is a Commercial Clerk.
The Mary Marl bit is Mar with a superscript l.
James and Mary noted as married.
RG10/1641
Folio: 63
Page: 3
Jonathan
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Here's George Robertson's family in 1861, living in Toxteth Park, Liverpool:
RG9/2707 - Folio 69 - Pg 31
George Robertson abt 1820 London, Middlesex, England Head
Mary Walker Robertson abt 1822 Port Glasgow, Scotland Wife
George Wood Robertson abt 1852 London, Middlesex, England Son
David Robertson abt 1854 London, Middlesex, England Son
Charles Wood Robertson abt 1856 London, Middlesex, England Son
John Wood Robertson abt 1858 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son
David Gilkison abt 1820 Port Glasgow, Scotland Visitor
Mary Ann Jones abt 1840 Mold, Wales Servant
Sarah Catherine Money abt 1838 Monaghan, Ireland Servant
Alice Jane Wilford abt 1838 Doncaster, Yorkshire, England Servant
So this part of the family moved from London to Liverpool between 1856 and 1858.
The name Robertson is more common in Scotland than England - we seem to have a Scottish connection here.
MR
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From Free BMD:
Marriages Jun 1866
Molison Mary M
Robertson James
Stepney 1c 1056
2 other people on the same page of course, but this ties in Jonathan's Molison family in 1871 where James and Mary M Robertson are listed as visitors. I think we definitely have Allan's parents here.
Rambler
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Wonder where they've left Claude b1868? :)
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Great stuff Rambler on the marriage ;D Wonder why Mary was a Robinson in 1861 and unmarried? Wonder if Robinson/Robertson/Molison got mixed up??
I wonder if Claude is with Kezia somewhere :P
Anyway, laters :)
Jonathan
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Jonathan!
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Thought a look at Charlotte's place of destiny might be worth a look.
Rice, Navarro County, Texas has an Institution of higher learning that opened in 1912.
From the University web site
"The Rice Institute opened on September 23, 1912, the anniversary of Mr. Rice's murder, with 77 students and a dozen faculty."
In addition Rice is about 25 miles from Dallas.
An historical note on another web site
"As the 20th century unfolded, Dallas changed with the times: manufacturing, banking and center of the world cotton market in 1910s-'20s;"
Could Alan have had expertise in the world of cotton commerce coming as he did from Lancashire?
Last and probably totally irrelevant, a snippet from the Dallas Library Archive
ROBERTSON, E.B., COLLECTION
1892. 1 inch.
Two lists compiled by Robertson: "List and location of the Bounty, Donation and Headright Lands of the dead soldiers of Alamo and Goliad" and "Muster Rolls, Alamo and Goliad Massacres."
T/D
Is this Grandpa or Uncle and is this a family visit?
Transatlantic travel for business did occur. I have a family in my tree who had a child in New York, one back in England and a further family addition back in the good old U.S. of A. before growing old in Lancashire.
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Allan died in Liverpool in 1842.
I think he died in 1942 :)
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Allan died in Liverpool in 1842.
I think he died in 1942 :)
So do I, but my fingers obviously don't! ::)
MR
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I did a freeBMD search on deaths for James Robertson between 1771 & 1781 and I got back a long list of around 90-100.
I've extracted those who died around any of the place names we've mentioned so far. And excluding those who were children.
Deaths Mar 1871
Robertson James 60 Liverpool 8b 308
Deaths Jun 1874
ROBERTSON James 68 Lambeth 1d 243
Deaths Dec 1878
ROBERTSON James 38 Liverpool 8b 212
Deaths Mar 1880
Robertson James 30 Liverpool 8b 173
Deaths Dec 1880
Robertson James 58 Liverpool 8b 173
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On the IGI there's this:
Mary Ann Molison
b. 2 May 1843
c.9 Feb 1849 St Dunstan, Stepney
father Alexander Molison
mother Mary Ann
It seems to fit quite well with Jonathons census entry find from 1871...and maybe explain why Claude was christened in Stepney.
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I did a freeBMD search on deaths for James Robertson between 1771 & 1781
Hey Burrow Digger - your fingers are as bad as mine! :P
If we take 1843 as a rough birth date for James (based on the 1871 census entry), the deaths in Dec 1878 or Mar 1880 look the most plausible. I doubt we'll get closer than that, but you never know!
Have we found a death record for Mary?
Rambler
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Theres also a Catherine Eliza b. 1851 and a William bn 1858 with the same parents.
William and Mary seem to have been christened together.
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I've also now found the marriage of an Alexander Mallison to a Mary Ann Lawrence at St Dunstans on 7 Sep 1840
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I don't think this is the same Molison family: here they are in 1871 for comparison, living in Mile End Old Town, London :
Alexander Mollison abt 1817 Scotland Head Ship Rigger
Mary Ann Mollison abt 1819 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Wife
William Mollison abt 1849 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Son
Elizabeth Mollison abt 1853 Mile End, Middlesex, England Daughter
Sarah Mollison abt 1858 Mile End, Middlesex, England Daughter
However, given Alexander's occupation, name, and the fact they live so close, I'm sure they're linked in some way. Our Alexander was born c1803, so it's probably not his son (unless one or both are lying about their age...), but it could easily be a nephew or cousin.
Rambler
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Rambler, I missed out on April & May so I'm starting early ;D
Has anyone checked GenesReunited? I do want also to point out that the marriage record I found on IGI for Alan & Charlotte (the one that mentioned their son Douglas) also mentioned 3 other "Unavailable" persons - probably Douglas's siblings who were still alive at the time the record was extracted.
So there might be someone looking :)
BD
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Alexander Mollison abt 1817 Scotland Head Ship Rigger
Mary Ann Mollison abt 1819 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Wife
William Mollison abt 1849 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Son
Elizabeth Mollison abt 1853 Mile End, Middlesex, England Daughter
Sarah Mollison abt 1858 Mile End, Middlesex, England Daughter
And note another Scottish connection. :)
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I checked GenesReunited for Al(l)an Robertson and found no one. Nothing for Douglas either. No connections to Mol(l)isons which spring out and hit me, but I haven't checked the whole list. No one on the RootsChat SIT is looking for Robertsons in Camberwell/Liverpool, and no one at all for Molison. A couple for Muir, but again, no obvious connection I can see
You're right though: potentially there could well be Robertson descendants somewhere out there... Not to mention descendants of Allan and Charlotte's siblings and wider family!
Rambler :D
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Well last month's challenge fascinated me, which I read through too late to join in. I waited for this one but of course had to come to work, quick log on during lunchtime and blimey, I've found nearly everything done!!! I hope you leave a couple of little details for me to look for when I come to go home.
Just one little thing I'm not sure anybody has clarified, yes until about 1973 ish - going from memory, Liverpool was part of Lancashire then they created a new county - Merseyside covering both sides of the River Mersey, including part of the Wirral as well.
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Well last month's challenge fascinated me, which I read through too late to join in. I waited for this one but of course had to come to work, quick log on during lunchtime and blimey, I've found nearly everything done!!! I hope you leave a couple of little details for me to look for when I come to go home.
Sorry Mary. I think its the time zones.
We are still looking for Mary Robertson's death record. Sometime after the 1901 census
Actually when Rambler posted that the June challenge had started after midnight in France - it was still late evening on May 31st for me here in Canada. So I used up 3 hours having fun :)
And right now I actually have to go to work. So I will be back in 8 hours to check on progress ;D
BD
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George Robertson family in 1891 - sis-in-law Augusta Jane is still living with him. Middle names may help here in looking for marriages!
RG12/2929 - Folio 56 - Pg 2: 37 South Hill Rd, Toxteth Park, Lancs
Roberton, George abt 1820 London, Middlesex Head Ships Chandler
Roberton, Charles Moddie abt 1856 London, Middlesex Son Ships Chandler
Robertson, Augusta Jane abt 1834 Stepney, Middlesex Sister-in-law
Robertson, Augusta abt 1861 Bow, Middlesex Niece
Robertson, Mary Douglas abt 1865 Bow, Middlesex Niece
Goot, Eliza abt 1870 Birkenhead, Cheshire Servant
MR
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This is much more interesting than work ;D
Did we ever determine was Alan's occupation was? Something about cotton, right?
I found an Allan Robertson listed in the Gore Directory for Liverpool/Birkenhead in 1900 as a Mariner.
His address was 8 Ince Avenue Litherland W
Would this be the same person?
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/b1.asp
Is Allan in the 1901 census? We know his mother Mary & sister Margaret are listed.
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Name Augusta Jane Robertson
Type Deaths
Age at death 63
Quarter June
Year 1897
District Toxteth Park
County Lancashire
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I think it likely that they moved in 1900, maybe shortly after Douglas's birth, unless I've missed some of the thread, there are none apparent on the 1901 census. Burrow Digger, it's unlikely that the Allan in Litherland would be the right one, if people were going to live in Liverpool they generally tended to stay in the near area, he started out in the south side - Toxteth Park and Litherland/Bootle would be in the north, its not often they would move like that.
Only one family of Robertsons appearing in Litherland in 1901, no Allans.
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Phewy.
How quick are you guys!!!
Is the South Hill Road reference back in the early posts still valid? I used to live on that street when I was a baby. My Grandad lived there until about 4 years ago.
Besides that.
Can someone do a summary of the explosion of avenues we've got to follow? I can't keep up. How far have we got back?
Pam
;D
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Like Pam, I've lost the plot until we get a summary, but as the name Georgina seems to be in the family, have we a daughter for Allan and Charlotte by this name by any chance or is this marriage just a coincidence?
1903
ROBERTSON Georgina CLAGUE William Edge Hill, St. Mary Liverpool
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Looks like Uncle George looked after them all well - nobody seems to want to leave!!
1901
37 South Hill Road Toxteth Park Lancashire
George Robertson 1820 Limehouse, London, England Head Toxteth Park
Charles W Robertson 1856 Limehouse, London, England Son Toxteth Park
Augusta Robertson 1861 Bromley, London, England Niece Toxteth Park
Mary D Robertson 1865 Bromley, London, England Niece Toxteth Park
Elizabeth Bryne 1871 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Servant Toxteth Park
Jane Palin 1881 Winsford, Cheshire, England Servant Toxteth Park
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Found Alan but no partner yet.......
Name Alan Robertson
Arrival Date 28 Nov 1919
Age 47 years
Birth Year 1872 approx
Gender Male
Background English
Port of Departure Liverpool, England
Ship Name Megantic
Port of Entry Portland, Maine
Last Residence England
Birthplace London, England
Roll Number 29
Looks like I'm going to learn lots from this thread ;D
Can I ask a favour for all us newbie types. Can you let us know what kind of records you are quoting from. Is this from a passenger list?
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Here is a photo of the Megantic
Sue
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1871 a very interesting family if this is them ... first time for James on the census?
Peter St, Claremont?, Harlow, Essex
Alexandria?? S Molison abt 1803 Scotland Head
Sarah Ann abt 1837 London, Middlesex, England Wife
Molison abt 1871 Harlow, Essex, England Son
Eliza Wils Molison abt 1848 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
Louisa Helen Molison abt 1869 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
James Robertson abt 1843 London, Middlesex, England Visitor
Mary Marl Robertson abt 1844 London, Middlesex, England Visitor
plus 4 servants
Alexandria (Alexander?) is a Ship Owner
James is a Commercial Clerk.
The Mary Marl bit is Mar with a superscript l.
James and Mary noted as married.
RG10/1641
Folio: 63
Page: 3
Jonathan
This is a recent re-marriage...
Molison, Alexander Strachan & SHORES, Sarah Ann
1868 March
Stepney Greater London
1c 794
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And he is dead before the next census.
MOLISON, Alexander Strachen
Age: 76
September Qtr 1878
Thanet Kent
V: 2a
P: 523
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No wonder - it was the younger wife ::) ::) ::) ::)
Annie
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You take the day off and go to the V&A for the day and everything changes in leaps and bounds ;D
Don't know how you keep track of it all Rambler but your periodic recaps are invaluable.
Annie, just where are you getting those passenger details from please???
Anyone done an 1851 lookup yet for James and Mary? Do we have enough info?
Jonathan
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Jonathan
Just jump in - wherever you find a space that needs attention.... :P
Annie
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Don't know how you keep track of it all Emily but your periodic recaps are invaluable.
Jonathan
Erm... that would be Manchester Rambler this month, Jonathan! :)
Paul
Anyone spotted Claude yet? :)
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Thanks Paul, duly edited :-[
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Paul - here's Claude now Hush...!!!!!
1891
73 Auderley Road
Robertson, Claude 1868 Peckham,Surrey Son Little Meols Cheshire
Robertson, Claude W 1870 Sct Officer Alverstoke Hampshire
Robertson, Emma C 1887 Peckham Surrey Daughter Camberwell
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Hi Annie
That's about three miles from where I live!
But who are the other two with Claude 1868? The Ancestry page for 1891 with Claude on has him with his mother Mary M, brother Alan and sister Margaret. ???
But I'm still fretting about his whereabouts in 1871... :)
Paul
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It's obviously him because of the Little Meols... maybe he got done twice.....!!!!!
I was thinking this might be the Claude W but he was born in 1870 wasn't he??
Got to be a relative though - can we keep him on the back burner?? I can't remember seeing a Frederick George though.....
Name: Robertson Claude William
Initials: C W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank Corporal
Regiment Middlesex Regiment
Unit Text 4th Bn.
Age 23
Date of Death 17/11/1916
Service No L/14429
Next of kin Son of Frederick George and Ellen Robertson, of Eastern House, Harwich,.
Casualty Type Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference Pier and Face 12 D and 13 B.
Cemetery THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Annie :P
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Have I missed somebody posting this? The only James in the London area of born 1843
1861 RG9/213 Folio 118 Page 2
2 Rose Court, St Giles without Cripplegate London
John Robertson Head M 41 Tailor Middlesex Whitechapel
Louisa Wife M 37 " Hackney
John Son Unm 20 Grainer " St Luke
James " " 18 Carman " "
Frances daur " 16 Tailoress " "
Charles Son 9 Scholar " Shoreditch
Bruce ? C Daur 5 " City of London
James Cole Lodger Unm 21 Laborer Hants Alton
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I agree with Debbie - I have him - Claude that is - in school in 1881
Just wrote it out and it went into cyberspace... :P
Wonder if we have two families here - that we're mixing and matching ???
Annie
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1871
3 Green Arbor Court, St Giles without Cripplegate London
John Robertson Head 52 Tailor Middlesex
Louisa Wife 46 "
Bruce daur Unm 16 Tailoress City of London
Joseph Hoube Boarder Unm 42 Labourer France
John Regan " " 25 Carman Ireland
John Neale " " 26 " City of London
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Well, here's 73 Alderley Road, Meols, at about 7.35pm tonight. :)
Paul
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JOHN ROBERTSON
Marriages:
Spouse: LOUISA KRAMER Family
Marriage: 25 DEC 1842 All Souls, Saint Marylebone, London, England
Looks like young James might have been a pageboy if these are the right parents
JAMES ROBERTSON
Male
Birth: 09 DEC 1842
Christening: 03 NOV 1844 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London, England
Father: JOHN ROBERTSON Family
Mother: LOUISA
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Paul - that's so cool !!
looks like the picture of an aeroplane - out of sight..... :P :P :P
When I first posted there was no photo ..... just thought I'd clear that up !
Annie ::) ::)
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Back with you folks after my Wednesday round of drivng kids to music lessons and so on - no school in France on Wednesdays.
I only hope I can keep up with developments! To recap briefly:
Allan Robertson - we have his birth, death and marriage. He was a cotton broker's apprentice in 1891, but we don't have him on the 1901 census. It's been suggested he may have been in the US then, although he died in Liverpool. Looking for him in trade/street directories from 1890 onwards could be one avenue to follow, as suggested by Burrow Digger.
Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir - Allan's wife. We have her birth, death and marriage (obviously!). She was born at sea, and died in Texas. No more suggestions here at present
Allan's siblings - Claude and Margaret. Margaret is with her mother on all censuses, and doesn't marry prior to 1901. We haven't located Claude in 1871. By 1891 he's a Ships Chandler's Clerk. What about 1901? We also have a mystery Claude found by Liverpool Annie in 1891 - what is his profession, and is he connected?
Allan's parents - James Robertson and Mary Marshall Molison. James was born c1843 in London, and died c1878/80 in Liverpool. On the 1871 census he's a commercial clerk. Mary was born c1844 in Limehouse, London. They married in Stepney in 1866.
Robertson family - need following up a bit more! Allan had at least 2 uncles, George and John. George was a Ships Chandler and married Mary Walker XXX. How about tracing his children to see how many are linked to the maritime industry? John was a Sail Maker and Ships Chandler, and married Augusta Jane XXX. He died young, and his widow set up home with George, whose wife had died, and probably acted as his housekeeper.
Molison family - again could be followed up. Originally from Scotland, and are another maritime family. Mary's father is possibly Alexander Strachan Molison, whose household she is visiting on the 1871 census. That needs to be confirmed, and her mother identified.
Muir family - Charlotte's parents are James Muir and Charlotte Maria Ann Jenkins Wilkinson King. (IGI) James had a second wife named Sarah (1881 census), and was a sailmaker. What about Charlotte's siblings?
So we have Allan and Charlotte's parents, but no further back. When did these families come down from Scotland to London?
A few lines of enquiry to follow here, plus anything else relevant you can think of!
Rambler
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Hi Guy's.
Just tried to put image of Mile End Old Town, Stepney and Limehouse Pre Blitz,
very nearly blown~up this puta. I shall work it out one day.
;D Lesanne.
-
Manchester Rambler (or The Manc Marathon as we like to call you here on Merseyside! :)) - that's a great summary: do you take commissions for writing up family histories? :)
I've lost the Google reference I found to Robertson's Chandlers in London, and couldn't find them when I looked again. Will have another search!
Paul
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Found this on Google at http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Merchant/Sail/E/Edwin_Fox(1853).html
Edwin Fox
A wooden full-rigged ship built of teak and part saul in 1853 at Sulkeah, Bengali. Dimensions: 144'8"×29'8"×23'6" and tonnage: 836 GRT, 836 NRT and 747 tons under deck.
Later re-rigged as a barque
[...]
1865
LR 1865-66: Owner: Gellatly & Co., London; Master: Captain McClean was replaced by Captain A. Morrison.
1865 August - 1867 February
In command of Captain Alexander. J. Molison, Brechin, Scotland. Died ashore in Bombay from Typhoid Fever, on 23 Feb 1867.
1860[?]
LR 1860-61: Owner: Gellatly & Co., London; Master: Captain R. Johnson.
1867 February - 1867 October
In command of Captain Alexander Strachan Molison, Brechin, Stepney.
Then on http://www.nzmaritime.co.nz/edwinfox.htm
1867 February 23 Captain Alexander J. Molison of Brechin, Scotland aged 32 died while living ashore, as was the custom, at Bombay from Typhoid Fever. Captain Alexander Stachan Molison, aged 65 years, probably a distant relative, assumed command. He was one of the ship's owners.
Rambler
-
This is on Google: PARTICULARS of SUNDRY DEBTS DUE TO THE ESTATE OF Jane Dow, a Bankrupt (1826)
http://www.londonancestor.com/misc/misc-dow.htm
Listed are debts of £200 to George Robertson, Ships Chandler of Limehouse, and £226 to Douglas & Robertson, Ships Chandlers of Limehouse.
Paul
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Manchester Rambler (or The Manc Marathon as we like to call you here on Merseyside! :)) - that's a great summary: do you take commissions for writing up family histories? :)
I've lost the Google reference I found to Robertson's Chandlers in London, and couldn't find them when I looked again. Will have another search!
Paul
I agree this is a great summary however with 82 contributions to this thread in less than 24 hours, finding these summaries again is likely require a lot of trawling through the pages of the thread as the month goes on.
How about a second thread on the Commom Room board just for the summaries? The post could be locked so that only the summaries would appear and if it was defined as a sticky topic (does a moderator have to do that?) it would stay at the top of the board.
What do you think Rambler?
Allan (Not the one we're looking for ;D )
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I agree this is a great summary however with 82 contributions to this thread in less than 24 hours, finding these summaries again is likely require a lot of trawling through the pages of the thread as the month goes on.
How about a second thread on the Commom Room board just for the summaries? The post could be locked so that only the summaries would appear and if it was defined as a sticky topic (does a moderator have to do that?) it would stay at the top of the board.
What do you think Rambler?
Allan (Not the one we're looking for ;D )
If the summaries help, I'll gladly start a separate thread for them. As long as I update regularly they should stay visible. (Thinks: What am I letting myself in for???)
In the meantime, Alexander Strachan Molison's first wife was called Augusta Jane (yes, another one!), also known as Jane. Their children from IGI extracted records:
Augusta Jane Molison, chr. 15 Sep 1833 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London
Alexander Joseph Molison, chr. 03 Jul 1836 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London
Mary Jean Molison, chr. 07 Oct 1838 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London
Duncan Dunbar Molison, chr. 20 May 1846 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London
Eliza Wilson Molison, chr. 21 Sep 1848 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London
No mention of Mary Marshall Molison, but there's a big gap between Mary Jean and Duncan Dunbar.
A few more folk to follow up!
Rambler
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Free BMD has a death for Mary Jean Molison:
Deaths Mar 1839
Molison Mary Jean Stepney 2 351
Molison births in Stepney:
Births Jun 1840
Molison William James Stepney 2 468
Births Dec 1845
Molison Duncan Dunbar Stepney 2 465
I guess William James is another of Alexander's sons?
Rambler
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Just reading from a book on Stepney, St Dunstan and All Saint's , was the
only church in the area, and served several hamlets.
Now Tower Hamlets and Hackey, the old Manor House was in Bethnal Green.
The villages from the churchyard to the river were Ratcliff,Shadwell,Wapping, with
Lime house, Poplar and Mile End, making up the rest of St Dunstans area.
Just thought it may help to pinpoint where they lived.
:) Lesanne.
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Haileybury College, a public school founded by East India Company.
Some notable pupils there, but can't find good site for archive registers.
Lesanne.
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Can we *presume* ::) that Claude may be out of the country in 1871 and 1901?
This family's obvious maritime connections, and links to America, may mean that our transatlantic Rootschaters can work the nightshift and find Clause for us!
What I find really puzzling is that Claude Robeetson isn't with his parents as a 3 year old in 1871. By 1901 I could understand an emigration.
Over to you, our American cousins!
Paul
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Paul
I think your procedure gave you Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.......... :P :P :P :P
You're bound and determined to find Claude aren't you???
We'll try tonight OK?
Annie
ps he was in school - boarding in '81
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Hi Annie
I think it was the failure to find Keziah in May that's made me determined that we'll find Claude! :)
Yes, we have him in 1881 and 1891 but he's hiding both before and after...
Isn't this an interesting family, though?
cheers
Paul
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Okay, okay.
I've found a researcher!
http://www.mindspring.com/~tvcornel/query.html
Do a "Control F" Search on molison. I'll email them now.
Pam
;D
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Here's a possible clue to the Scottish Molison link...
The Edwin Fox
http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Merchant/Sail/E/Edwin_Fox(1853).html
1867 February - 1867 October
In command of Captain Alexander Strachan Molison, Brechin, Stepney
If you search for Molison on teh IGI the concentration is Kincardine, Aberdeen and there are Google hits for Brechin. So not sure but this entry implies Alexander is from Brechin living in Stepney.
Sorry Manchester Rambler already posted this :-[ :-[
Pam
;D
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Found this on Rootschat from the chap I've just emailed...
I have an Augusta Jane Marshall born abt 1813, probably Aberdeen, but otherwise know little about her other than that she married Alexander Strachan Molison bef 1833, had 4 children and died before 1868. Would really like to know more. Molison was a Ships Captain mostly on the Australia/India/London run.
From Rootsweb Aberdeen List
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From Brechin marriage banns how is this for a familiar collection of names?
1794
Alexander Mitchell & Mary Strachan
Alexander Molison & Agnes Middleton
I've also found hits for Molison's who are Harbour porters in death indexes fro Brechin area..
http://www.fdca.org.uk/howff/Moa-Myr.html
Pam
;D
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From Pallot's Marriage Index...
Alexr Molison
Augusta Marshall
1829
St. George In The East
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Crikey Pam - you're making me dizzy! :)
Any news of Claude? ::)
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Paul............................... :P
You think he could have gone to the Boer War?
My eyes are going GOZZY looking through shipping lists - I can't find him.. :P
That posting that was weird was from Ancestry and I can't find it again now one of those obscure listings....
He could have been with relatives like sister Margaret - but we're not going to find him till you stop worrying about him !!
Go to bed... ::) ::)
Annie
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Hi,
First time ive heard of theese challenges and thought i'd have a go.
Here is Alan's passenger record, I found at ellisisland.org on one of his trips to america.
Ship of Travel: Carmania
Port of Departure: Liverpool
Date of Arrival: September 13, 1910
Name: Alan Robertson
Age: 37
Sex: Male
Occupation: Cotton Merchant
Able to Read and Write: Yes
Nationality: Gt Britain
Last Permanent Residence: Liverpool, England
Name and address of closest relative: Wife Mrs A Robertson, Grasserdale, Liverpool
Final Destination: New York
Whom passage paid by: self
In possesion of more than $50: Yes
Been to USA before: Yes 1903 New York
Address going to stay at: Park Avenue Hotel, New York
Whether a polygamist: No
Whether an Anarchist: No
Condition of health: Good
Height: 5 foot 3 inches
Complexion: Clear
Hair: Brown
Eyes: Brown
Marks of Identification: None
Birthplace: London
Will see what else I can find
Holly
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Good Girl Holly !!
I'm shocked he's so short - I imagined a tall guy........ :P
Annie
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Hi,
Information and picture of the Carmania.
Built by John Brown & Company, Clydebank, Scotland, 1905. 19,524 gross tons; 675 (bp) feet long; 72 feet wide. Steam turbine engines, triple screw. Service speed 18 knots. 1,550 passengers (300 first class, 350 second class, 900 third class).
Built for Cunard Line, British flag, in 1905 and named Carmania. Liverpool-New York service. Served as an armed merchant cruiser, then troopship 1914-18. Scrapped in 1932.
(http://www.geocities.com/censuslookupimages/Image2.jpg)
Trying to find more
Holly!
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Now Holly - could you please find Claude for Paul..... :P
Annie
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GO HOLLY!!
;D ;D
Now how fantastic is that we have his height! It's the little things (no joke intended) that bring a person to life. Not literally, that's voodoo.
How brilliant!
It's a weak contribution in comparison but his wife's address is most likely to be Grassendale.
Pam
;D
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Holly - that's amazing!
I particularly liked
Whether an Anarchist: No
Did anyone ever say 'YES' :)
Paul
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Great stuff, Holly.
I'm especially relieved to hear he is not a polygamist!
Ros
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I'm wondering, is there any chance that Alan might have been in USA on a trip during the American 1900, 1910, 1920 census nights? Can someone check them out?
I'm just thinking out loud :)
BD
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Oh and have we determined who Alan's paternal grandparents were? (James's parents?)
-
Am in the middle of checking Burrow.
He missed the 1910 census. But am looking at 1900 and 1920 now.
Holly
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Hi!
Doesnt seem to be in 1900. But I guessed that was the case as passenger list said he went to USA in 1903.
Holly
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Cant see him in 1920 or 1930 either.
Holly
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Hi,
No Luck with Claude so far either. Not in 1930 or 1920 US Census.
Holly
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Have only just joined in so I am pretty confused, but could this be our man in 1930 (US Census)?
Living in Newark City, New Jersey
Allan G. Robertson and wife Mary, in a rented house, for which they pay $110 per month - and they have a radio!
He is a white male, aged 56 (ie c. 1874), 21 when first married, born England, parents born Scotland/Scotland. He can read, immigrated in 1927 and is a superintendent at a cotton mill.
Wife Mary is same age, also 21 when first married, born Scotland, parents Scotland/Scotland.
Note that the age when first married doesn't necessarily mean they married each other then ...
Ros
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Hi Again,
"Our" Allan was 26 when he married Charlotte, but we all know censuses arnt always accurate.
Holly
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1871
Jane Jacob 1832 Islington, Middlesex Wife St Anne Limehouse
Timotheos Jacob 1831 Plymouth, Devon, Head St Anne Limehouse
Emma Mercer abt 1854 Poplar, Middlesex, Servant St Anne Limehouse
Ann C Robertson 1806 Limehouse, Middlesex, Boarder St Anne Limehouse
Could this be James' Mum ???
Annie
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Gosh....there's suddenly five more pages to this thread since I went to bed yesterday...
I just found this thread with molisons on rootschat:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,45632.0.html
I haven't managed to work out if they are definately connected to our ones yet..but they are also from Brechin.
Is this the same person that you already e-mailed Pam?
-
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jeffery.knaggs/Instuts.html
this is a link to the institutions that were included in 1901 cenus - but were not always numbered.... :P
I thought perhaps Claude might have been sick during 1871 census - there was a hospital for infectious diseases in Toxteth - or maybe he had mental problems or behaviour problems - especially as he was sent away to school in 1881 ::)
but I can't find 1871 institutions census - does any body know where I can find them??
Annie
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OK Paul
I'm pretty sure this is HIM -
I'm going to be too pooped to participate tomorrow............ :P :P
1. - First of all they said he was born 1857 - but it is very plain on the image AGED 4
2. - Then he's Robinson not Robertson
3. - Then I believe he was born too soon.... :P
1871
Mary Ann Reading 1849 age 22 Poplar, Middlesex, England Servant CamberwellSt Giles
Claud Robinson 1857 age 4 Peckham, Surrey, England Son Camberwell St Giles
20 Wilson Road Lambeth Camberwell
Please let this be the one :P :P :P :P
Annie
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In the 1841 post office directory theres:
St Ann's place, Limehouse
Robertson George Ship Chandler
Anyone got an 1841 London census handy? Although it might be just the business address?
-
Well done everyone! I'll post a summary of the last 2 pages at some point this morning (CET), but I've got a mountain of ironing waiting for me which I daren't ignore...
What's wrong with being 5'3"? He was taller than me!
However, I'm having doubts about Allan G Robertson.
1. Where does the "G" come from?
2. Charlotte died in Texas in 1913, but the passenger list for 1910 gives his wife as Mrs A Robertson.
Can we double-check UK censuses to see if there are 2 Allans? Just to be sure!
Rambler
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MR
In the old days they would address the wife as Mrs. Allen Robertson !! :P
I agree I think we have two families mixing and matching...
Annie
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MR
In the old days they would address the wife as Mrs. Allen Robertson !! :P
I agree I think we have two families mixing and matching...
Annie
Good point!
Or would it be Mrs A G Robertson???? Aaaaagh! ???
We need to clear this one up to avoid following the wrong couple - I'd like this to be our Allan, but we need some more evidence.
Rambler
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UK Census Check for Allan Robertson born 1872 East London (using 5 year variation and Alan/Allan/Allen and Rob*)
1881 - just 'our' Allan
1891 - can't find 'our' Allan or the other candidate for emigration
1901 - can't find them here, either
(but I did find someone who had the occupation of 'Zylolite Collar Maker' in the 1891! :))
Does this mean it will be worth looking in the USA in 1891 and 1901, too?
Paul
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OK now with something more constructive:
1891 Census, Alderley Road, Little Meals?, Chester
RG12/2877 Folio 11 Page 15
Mary M ROBERTSON, Head, Wid, 47, b. London Limehouse
Claude ROBERTSON, Son, S, 23, Shipschandler's Clerk, b. Surrey, Peckham
Alan ROBERTSON, Son, S, 18, Cotton Brokers Apprentice, b. Camberwell
Margaret ROBERTSON, Dau, S, 14, b. Camberwell
Allan appears to have lost an "L" by 1891. I wonder where poor little 4 year old Margaret was in 1881?
Paul....we have him in 1891 as Alan I think....but I don't think anyone has found him in 1901 yet
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Apologies emily - and Al!
Something more constructive...
London Post Office Directory for 1829
George Robertson, Ship Chandler, Narrow Street, Ratcliffe Cross
Paul
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Gosh....there's suddenly five more pages to this thread since I went to bed yesterday...
I just found this thread with molisons on rootschat:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,45632.0.html
I haven't managed to work out if they are definately connected to our ones yet..but they are also from Brechin.
Is this the same person that you already e-mailed Pam?
No Emily, I don't think so - the chap I found is directly related by Mary Marshall Molison's sister Eliza Wilson Molison (I think).
Pam
;D
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As someone who has the dreaded Robinson name in my tree thought I'd point out that I have found them as ROBERTSON, ROBISON, ROBYNSON, ROBERTS on numerous different census.
I'm pretty sure ROBERTSONs will have a similar problem.
;D
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London Post Office Directory for 1829
George Robertson, Ship Chandler, Narrow Street, Ratcliffe Cross
Paul
Allan's uncle George Robertson was born c1820, so is this perhaps another candidate for Allan's paternal grandfather?
Rambler
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In 1881, four year old Margaret Robertsons' with her uncle George Robertson, Ship Chandler, at 11 South Hill Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool, along with Georges widowed sister in law Augusta J, Georges other nieces Augusta and Mary D, son Charles M and 2 servants - RG11/3643 Folio 22 Page 38
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The In Laws. Parents of Charlotte:
From the IGI
Charlotte Maria Ann Jenkins Wilkinson King
Born 16 Oct 1833 Barbados
Christened 3 Nov 1833 Barbados
Married to Captain James Muir 13 Jun 1860,
London, England
Died 5 Nov 1879 Liverpool, Buried Toxteth
Park Cemetery
Daughter of James King
IGI Entry for James William King, son of
James Martin King and Margaret Leslie Forte,
Married Mary Elizabeth Wilkinson 8 Mar 1830
Quite a clan of Robertsons born in the Caribbean and a fair number of nieces and nephews born there are staying with Aunts and Uncles in England in 1881
-
Apologies if this has already been posted!
It's getting hard to keep track of all the information.
Alexander Strachan MOLISON and Augusta Jane (presumably Augusta MARSHALL) had the following, all at St Dunstan Stepney (all are entries extracted from the OPRS i.e. not LDS submissions):
- Augusta Jane MOLISON bap 15 Sep 1833
- Alexander Joseph MOLISON bap 3 Jul 1836 (Alexander snr's middle name listed as 'Stathen')
- Mary Jean MOLISON bap 7 Oct 1838 (Alexander's middle name listed as 'Shachan')
- William James bap 22 Jul 1840 (this is at the end of the batch apparently without a surname, parents names are given as Alexander - no middle name and no surname - and Augusta Jane)
- Mary Marshall MOLESON(sic) bap 28 Apr 1844 (Alexander's middle name listed as 'Stratcher' and surname as MOLESON)
- Duncan Dunbar MOLISON b 4 Nov 1845, bap 20 May 1846
- Eliza Wilson MOLISON b 5 Jan, bap 21 Sep 1848 (Alexander's middle name listed as 'Shachan', Augusta Jane listed as Jane)
FreeBMD has in Stepney:
- Mary Jean MOLISON, death, Mar qtr 1839
- William James MOLISON, birth, Jun qtr 1840
- Duncan Dunbar MOLISON, birth, Dec qtr 1845
- John (?) MOLISON, death, Sep qtr 1851
- Elizabeth MOLISON, birth, Mar qtr 1853
- John MOLISON, death, Sep qtr 1857
- Mary M MOLISON, marriage, Jun qtr 1866 (this has already been posted, James ROBERTSON on same page)
- Alexander Strachan MOLISON, marriage, Mar qtr 1868 (this has already been posted, Sarah Ann SHORES on same page)
- Duncan Dunbar MOLISON, marriage, Sep qtr 1872 (females on same page are Anna Rebecca ATKINS and Justina Louise SHORES)
There are also some MOLLISON entries in Stepney.
- Alexander Strachen MOLISON, death, age 76, Thanet, Sep qtr 1878 (think this has already been posted)
JAP
PS: I'm editing this for completeness. Incidentally, I now see that most of the St Dunstan, Stepney entries had been posted previously - but at least I added Mary Marshall and (now) William James ; )
It seems that Duncan Dunbar MOLISON did marry a SHORES. In the 1881, in Lambeth Surrey, there's a Justine L MOLISON, Head, married, age 31, no occupation, born Poplar Middlesex. With her (just to confuse the issue) there's a Duncan D. SHORES, listed as her Brother-in-Law (seems strange?), age 25, no occupation, born Worthing Sussex. And yes, in the IGI (extracted entry), there's the birth in 1855 of a Duncan Dunbar SHORES, parents John Wallis SHORES and Justina, at Broadwater by Worthing, Sussex. Perhaps the SHORES and MOLISON families were close, and perhaps Duncan Dunbar SHORES was named after Duncan Dunbar MOLISON (who later married Justine Louise SHORES) ........
Finally, the 1841 Angus census is nearly complete on FreeCEN - there are plenty of MOLISONs.
-
Sorry
I omitted the information that the King /Wilkinson wedding was performed in Barbados
Beth
-
The Molisons seem to have stamped their mark on Brechin...
http://www.angus.gov.uk/history/features/oldbrechin.htm
for details of John Molison, Provost
and
http://www.angus.gov.uk/history/features/people/molison.htm
for Thomas Molison, who rose to the rank of captain in the marines, serving with them until his father's death (John) around 1781. He had a share in linen spinning at the West Mill with wright Thomas Jamieson. He later sold this and formed a new partnership at the Meickle Mill for spinning and manufacturing flour. Another partnership was formed with David Rid and Town Clerk, Alexander Ritchie to spin flax and manufacture canvas for the navy.
Died 27 July 1815.
Certainly a link with linen / sails / chandlers here.
Paul
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Transcribed birth announcements from the Times of India found at http://users.synflux.com.au/~sylcec/dob64.htm
DOMESTIC OCCURRENCES - BIRTHS 1864
MUIR - January 24th, on board the ship Falkland, the wife of Captain James Muir, of a son.
Presumably one of Charlotte's brothers - Charlotte was also born at sea.
MR
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Burrow Digger posted an 1881 census entry for Charlotte Muir on page 2 of this thread, which looked likely, but I've just found this (also 1881):
RG11/3651 - Folio 113 - Pg 61: 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Mary Barrow Muir abt 1862 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
James E. Muir abt 1866 Sri Lanka Son
Charlotte G. Muir abt 1868 At Sea Daughter
Gertrude Muir abt 1873 Liverpool Daughter
Reginald L. Muir abt 1871 Bombay, India Son
Emma Harrison abt 1857 St Helens, Lancashire, England Visitor
Mary Gilchrist abt 1836 Lanarkshire, Scotland Visitor
Robt. Gilchrist abt 1829 Montrose, Scotland Visitor
Ann Grant abt 1857 Liverpool Servant
Rambler
-
Oooh oooh oooh!
I've got a Barrow in London (Soho) in my tree - please please please let there be a connection! :)
Paul
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RG11/3651 - Folio 113 - Pg 61: 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Mary Barrow Muir abt 1862 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
James E. Muir abt 1866 Sri Lanka Son
Charlotte G. Muir abt 1868 At Sea Daughter
Gertrude Muir abt 1873 Liverpool Daughter
Reginald L. Muir abt 1871 Bombay, India Son
Emma Harrison abt 1857 St Helens, Lancashire, England Visitor
Mary Gilchrist abt 1836 Lanarkshire, Scotland Visitor
Robt. Gilchrist abt 1829 Montrose, Scotland Visitor
Ann Grant abt 1857 Liverpool Servant
Rambler
Robert Gilchrist is a shipowner.
This is starting to look like the script for the Onedin Line! :)
-
I'd definitely accept a commission to write up this family! Why aren't their descendants looking for them? Or do they already know everything?
Rambler
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The Molison and Robertson families certainly do seem to be very close...
It seems Mary Marshall Molison married James Robertson
And Augusta Jane Molison married John Robertson
16 Mar 1858 Broadwater by Worthing, Sussex (extracted)
Or am I going crazy? At least none of them are called Keziah yet :)
-
Did we discover who the Alexander Molison/Mollison b. abt 1802 Scotland is with regard to the other Alexander b. abt 1816 Scotland. Rambler found them in 71 so I'll post the 61 (it's got the Catherine that Emily mentioned).
1861
5 Willow St, Stepney (reg dist MEOT)
Alexander Mollison 45 Scotland Head
Mary A Mollison 42 Whitechapel, Middlesex, England Wife
Catherine Mollison 10 Mile End, Middlesex, England Daughter
Elizth Mollison 8 Daughter
Sarah Mollison3 Daughter
William Mollison 13 Mile End, Middlesex, England Son
Elizth Lawrence 60 Kent, England Mother-in-law
Alexander is a Ship Rigger.
RG9/298
Folio: 5
Page: 3
Jonathan
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My experience of ship & boat owners is to keep it in the family.
My Carruthers who where Master Seamen, coastal traders and a harbour master and the like all seemed marry with families of the same names connections to shipping.
Pam
;D
-
I think I'm having an embalism trying to keep up.
I think this is what we are saying so far?
James Robertson (Allan's father) is born about 1843
John Robertson husband to Augusta is born about 1835
George Robertson husband to Mary? is born about 1820
23 years I suppose isn't unheard of between siblings but it is pretty impressive.
What's the consensus on where these guys are born? Limehouse comes up more than once as does Wapping.
Pam
;D
-
The age difference between the brothers had also struck me - perhaps different mothers?
Rambler
-
I had an idea that John was born 1845ish but I'm also getting rather confused with them all.....I've just started entering them all in Legacy so I have a hope to keep up....
I'm wondering if there maybe are a few other Robertson siblings around somehere......or could they maybe all have the same father but two different mothers?
I think Limehouse and Wapping are pretty close to each other.
Emily :)
oooh..I was just typing at the same time as you Rambler.....
-
London Post Office Directory for 1829
George Robertson, Ship Chandler, Narrow Street, Ratcliffe Cross
Paul
Allan's uncle George Robertson was born c1820, so is this perhaps another candidate for Allan's paternal grandfather?
Rambler
I think that the second George is the son of the first George. The son was born around 1852 according to the 1871 census that was posted.
George Wood Robertson abt 1852 London, Middlesex, England Son
I'm also thinking that George born 1820 is Alan's great-uncle rather than uncle.
If James was born around 1843, and George in 1820, yes they could be brothers from the same family, but they could also be uncle/nephew.
I too am trying to enter everyone into my Legacy program. I have Charlotte's parents, grandparents & great grandparents, but no parents for James Muir or James Robertson. :( And thus I cant put George and the sister in law Augusta onto the family tree - no branch to connect them to. ;D
BD
-
I think Limehouse and Wapping are pretty close to each other.
Yes Emily, they are continguous running along the Thames to the east of the Tower of London, both closely associated with shipping with many commercial activities as well as docks lining both districts (e.g. wapping dock, shadwell dock, limehouse basin etc) and pivotal in imports/exports (tea, sugar, lumber, oils, fruit) throughout the colonies.
Jonathan
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I think that the second George is the son of the first George. The son was born around 1852 according to the 1871 census that was posted.
George Wood Robertson abt 1852 London, Middlesex, England Son
I'm also thinking that George born 1820 is Alan's great-uncle rather than uncle.
If James was born around 1843, and George in 1820, yes they could be brothers from the same family, but they could also be uncle/nephew.
BD
The census info so far definitely shows George (1820) as brother of James (1843) - for what that's worth. Yes, George Wood Robertson (1852) is the son of George (1820).
However, if a firm named George Robertson, Ship Chandler, existed in 1829, it wasn't founded by the George b. 1820! I was suggesting that possibly George, James and John's father was also called George.
Rambler
-
Yes Emily, [Limehouse and Wapping] are continguous running along the Thames to the east of the Tower of London, both closely associated with shipping with many commercial activities as well as docks lining both districts (e.g. wapping dock, shadwell dock, limehouse basin etc) and pivotal in imports/exports (tea, sugar, lumber, oils, fruit) throughout the colonies.
Jonathan
You didnt mention cotton. Alan was a cotton merchant after all. OR maybe the cotton merchants just work out of Liverpool.
I'm also been thinking about Alan having brown hair and brown eyes? Can I suggest that one of his ancestors from the Barbados might have been a native of that country?
BD
-
Has anyone seen this?
Posted here at Rootschat - about halfway down the page. Does anyone know who Kenjo is?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,45632.0.html
There father Thomas Molyson c 22/3/1760 Brechin
his father John Molyson
mother Fergusia Tod..
These are their children.
THOMAS MOLYSON - Male Christening: 22 MAR 1760 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
MARGARET MOLISON - Female Christening: 05 NOV 1761 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
CATHARINE MOLISON - Female Christening: 30 SEP 1763 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
ANNE MOLISON - Female Christening: 02 JAN 1765 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
FERGUSIA MOLISON -Female Christening: 30 APR 1766 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
EUPHEMIA MOLISON - Female Christening: 26 OCT 1767 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
DAVID MOLISON - Male Christening: 07 JUN 1769 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
FRANCES MOLISON - Female Christening: 29 OCT 1770 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
JEAN MOLISON - Female Christening: 17 SEP 1772 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
MARY MOLISON - Female Christening: 09 NOV 1774 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
ALEXANDER MOLISON - Male Christening: 12 MAR 1777 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
JAMES MOLISON - Male Christening: 14 OCT 1778 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
ROBERT MOLISON - Male Christening: 08 MAR 1781 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
ISABEL MOLISON - Female Christening: 03 JAN 1785 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
Further down the thread is this post by Kenjo
You have some very wonderful characters in your family.
such as Naval Captains that caught foriegn ships and they won rewards for this also they were mentioned in the peerage, there was one famous sailor, he drowned in NZ.
family letters were sent back to England. this is all on the net.
BD
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Hi BD
Sorry, was just giving examples, Limehouse/Wapping and environs (generally referred to as the London Docks) were one of the main shipping areas for all kinds of goods, apart from the ones I mentioned tobacco, wool, silk, wine were also important. But the docks were vast and commodities varied ... during the Victorian era they were the largest docks in the world I think.
You may be right in inferring that cotton was more important up north though :)
Jonathan
-
Has anyone seen this?
Posted here at Rootschat - about halfway down the page. Does anyone know who Kenjo is?
Hi Digger
I sent Kenjo a link to this thread earlier today - s/he's either freaked out or examining the data as I speak (the thread came up on a Molison search on Google, which is encouraging).
Hope s/he's not just being shy! :)
cheers
Paul
-
the thread came up on a Molison search on Google, which is encouraging
Yeah thats how I found it too.
I have Alexander Strachan Molison born 1829 in St George in the East (wherever that is - Stepney maybe?)
I wonder if a member of that family I previously posted, might be Alexander's father or grandfather. It would be cool. :)
Now we still need to find the parents of James Muir & James/John/George Robertson
BD
-
A user-submitted record on the IGI gives James Muir's birth as 30 Oct 1827 Whitby, Yorkshire. Parents: Captain Thomas Muir and Mary Dale. It also specifies that Charlotte was born on board the ship "Golden Eagle". An extracted record has a christening for a James Muir in Whitby on 03 Nov 1827 - parents Thomas Muir and Mary.
Burrow Digger - I'm not familiar with Legacy, but will it let you enter James Robertson's father as ?? Robertson or XXX Robertson until we know the real name?
Rambler
-
A user-submitted record on the IGI gives James Muir's birth as 30 Oct 1827 Whitby, Yorkshire. Parents: Captain Thomas Muir and Mary Dale. It also specifies that Charlotte was born on board the ship "Golden Eagle". An extracted record has a christening for a James Muir in Whitby on 03 Nov 1827 - parents Thomas Muir and Mary.
Burrow Digger - I'm not familiar with Legacy, but will it let you enter James Robertson's father as ?? Robertson or XXX Robertson until we know the real name?
Rambler
Can you paste the entire transcription for that IGI record? I realise that you probably found it using the names Muir/Dale, but why would Charlottes birth be mentioned when its her father's birth record we're looking for? I'd like to see the proof please :)
And yes I can enter an "unknown father" for James Robertson, good idea. So I wrote "unknown possibly George", so now the name reads "unknown possibly George Robertson" ;D
BD
-
Rambler you said that James Muir was born in 1827.
Thats does not match the 1881 census record in which he stated he was aged 46. So 81 - 46 = (18)35.
1881 census
James MUIR Head M Male 46 Bristol, Gloucester, England Sailmaker
Sarah MUIR Wife M Female 45 Bristol, Gloucester, England
Jessy MUIR Daur Female 19 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Eliza MUIR Daur Female 17 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Edward MUIR Son Male 15 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Charlotte MUIR Daur Female 13 Poplar, Middlesex, England
Charles MUIR Son Male 11 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Emily MUIR Daur Female 9 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Louisa MUIR Daur Female 6 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Agnes MUIR Daur Female 2 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Or have I missed something and we are now saying that this census record is not correct.
I realise that census ages are not always accurate but wouldnt you expect a person to know if they were 46 or 54 years old?
BD
-
And while I still want the proof, I found the marriage record at IGI.
THOMAS MUIR
Male
Marriages:
Spouse: MARY DALE Family
Marriage: 07 FEB 1825 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
User-submitted record (not a parish record extract)
BD
-
Captain James Muir's wife Charlotte obviously travelled with him - just look where their children were born! (IGI data)
JAMES ERNEST WILKINSON MUIR - International Genealogical Index / AS
Gender: Male Christening: 03 JAN 1866 Taninthari, Mawlamyaing, Tenasserim, Burma
REGINALD LUCKOCK MUIR - International Genealogical Index / AS
Gender: Male Birth: 10 MAY 1870 Ship Golden Eagle, Bombay, Maharashtra, India
Ethel Millicent Muir - International Genealogical Index / AS
Gender: Female Christening: 23 OCT 1891 Kamptee, , West Bengal, India
THOMAS KING MUIR - International Genealogical Index / OI
Gender: Male Birth: 24 JAN 1863 , Falkland Islands, Atlantic Islands
GERTRUDE EMMELINE MUIR - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Female Birth: 01 JUL 1872 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Rambler
BD -Here's the full record - It's a user-submitted one which covers 3 generations. I found it by entering Charlotte Muir with birth "At Sea" in "All Resources".
Husband
Capt James Muir Pedigree
Birth: 30 OCT 1827 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
Christening:
Marriage: 13 JUN 1860 , London, England
Death: 11 JUN 1899 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Burial: Toxteth Park Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Capt Thomas Muir Family
Mother: Mary Dale
~~~~~~~~
Wife
Charlotte Maria Ann Jenkins Wilkinson King Pedigree
Birth: 16 OCT 1833 , Barbados, Caribbean
Christening: 03 NOV 1833 , Barbados, Caribbean
Marriage: 13 JUN 1860 , London, England
Death: 05 NOV 1879 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Burial: Toxteth Park Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: James King Family
Mother:
~~~~~~~~
Children
~~~~~~~~
1. Mary Barron Muir Female
Birth: 03 SEP 1861 London, London, England
Christening:
Death: 16 JAN 1914
Burial:
~~~~~~~~
2. Thomas King Muir Male
Birth: 24 JAN 1863 Ship "Falkland", , , At Sea
Christening:
Death: 29 FEB 1932
Burial:
~~~~~~~~
3. Unavailable
~~~~~~~~
4. Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir
Female
Birth: 29 DEC 1867 At Sea Ship "Golden Eagle", , , At Sea
Christening:
Death: 30 AUG 1913
Burial:
~~~~~~~~
5. Unavailable
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Unavailable
User-submitted records vary in reliability, but this looks a good line to follow - it explains nicely why Allan's wife Charlotte has Dale as a third name.
Earlier today (CET!) I found another 1881 census record which I posted a couple of pages back, and this shows a Charlotte G Muir born at sea with the above siblings. So I think the other 1881 Charlotte Muir may not be the right one. However, naming patterns and occupations are very similar, so in my opinion the familes are very likely to be related... Or I may be wrong entirely! Whatdo you think?
-
Hi MR
Yes, I just had a look at the user submitted record - I think it stacks up.
Great find!
Paul
-
Hi
The LDS site also has an Ancestral File for Charlotte Muir, showing her maternal grandparents as
James KING born 1807 St Michaels, Barbados
Mary Elizabeth WILKINSON born 1811 St Michaels, Barbados
cheers
Paul
-
Posted by: Burrow Digger Posted on: Today at 16:58:03
Insert Quote
Rambler you said that James Muir was born in 1827.
Thats does not match the 1881 census record in which he stated he was aged 46. So 81 - 46 = (18)35.
1881 census
James MUIR Head M Male 46 Bristol, Gloucester, England Sailmaker
Sarah MUIR Wife M Female 45 Bristol, Gloucester, England
Jessy MUIR Daur Female 19 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Eliza MUIR Daur Female 17 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Edward MUIR Son Male 15 Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Charlotte MUIR Daur Female 13 Poplar, Middlesex, England
Charles MUIR Son Male 11 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Emily MUIR Daur Female 9 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Louisa MUIR Daur Female 6 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Agnes MUIR Daur Female 2 Bromley, Middlesex, England
I don't think this 1881 record is for the Charlotte & James we're looking for. MR has already listed the children for James Muir & Charlotte M A J King from the IGI.
However there are also three other children on the IGI of a James Muir and Charlotte (no surname) born in Liverpool:
Robert b 1868
Marian b 1870
Jessie b 1872
I think this is another family but may be related.
Allan
-
Ok so the 1881 census record I originally posted way back on page 1 or 2 is incorrect - thats cool. Thanks for the proof. :)
Now its that time again - work :(
But I'll be back in 6 hours!!! :)
I like Thursdays - my halfday off :)
BD
PS I wished I grew up living that life style - born at sea, sailing the world, being truely free .... if only...
And that boat must get rather crowded with so many kids :)
-
This may be the marriage for the "other" James Muir and Sarah from Free BMD:
Marriages Dec 1859
--------------------------
Edwards William Bristol 6a 9
MUIR James Bristol 6a 9
Shambrook Harriett Bristol 6a 9
Sprowles Sarah Bristol 6a 9
I think they're connected in some way, but don't know how.
Hey BD - half-days aren't fair! You get ahead of us Europeans during our night as it is! I couldn't believe how much I had to catch up yesterday and this morning. :D
Rambler
-
Captain James Muir's wife Charlotte obviously travelled with him - just look where their children were born! (IGI data)
JAMES ERNEST WILKINSON MUIR - International Genealogical Index / AS
Gender: Male Christening: 03 JAN 1866 Taninthari, Mawlamyaing, Tenasserim, Burma
REGINALD LUCKOCK MUIR - International Genealogical Index / AS
Gender: Male Birth: 10 MAY 1870 Ship Golden Eagle, Bombay, Maharashtra, India
Ethel Millicent Muir - International Genealogical Index / AS
Gender: Female Christening: 23 OCT 1891 Kamptee, , West Bengal, India
THOMAS KING MUIR - International Genealogical Index / OI
Gender: Male Birth: 24 JAN 1863 , Falkland Islands, Atlantic Islands
GERTRUDE EMMELINE MUIR - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Female Birth: 01 JUL 1872 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Rambler
BD -Here's the full record - It's a user-submitted one which covers 3 generations. I found it by entering Charlotte Muir with birth "At Sea" in "All Resources".
Husband
Capt James Muir Pedigree
Birth: 30 OCT 1827 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
Christening:
Marriage: 13 JUN 1860 , London, England
Death: 11 JUN 1899 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Burial: Toxteth Park Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Capt Thomas Muir Family
Mother: Mary Dale
~~~~~~~~
Wife
Charlotte Maria Ann Jenkins Wilkinson King Pedigree
Birth: 16 OCT 1833 , Barbados, Caribbean
Christening: 03 NOV 1833 , Barbados, Caribbean
Marriage: 13 JUN 1860 , London, England
Death: 05 NOV 1879 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Burial: Toxteth Park Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: James King Family
Mother:
~~~~~~~~
Children
~~~~~~~~
1. Mary Barron Muir Female
Birth: 03 SEP 1861 London, London, England
Christening:
Death: 16 JAN 1914
Burial:
~~~~~~~~
2. Thomas King Muir Male
Birth: 24 JAN 1863 Ship "Falkland", , , At Sea
Christening:
Death: 29 FEB 1932
Burial:
~~~~~~~~
3. Unavailable
~~~~~~~~
4. Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir
Female
Birth: 29 DEC 1867 At Sea Ship "Golden Eagle", , , At Sea
Christening:
Death: 30 AUG 1913
Burial:
~~~~~~~~
5. Unavailable
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Unavailable
User-submitted records vary in reliability, but this looks a good line to follow - it explains nicely why Allan's wife Charlotte has Dale as a third name.
And we now have 2 more surnames to look for - BARRON & KING :)
-
Hey BD - half-days aren't fair! You get ahead of us Europeans during our night as it is! I couldn't believe how much I had to catch up yesterday and this morning. :D
Rambler
he he he you gotta be fast to keep up with me. ;D
BD
-
please check out may's last message from me-- full details will be posted soon
Love Jan xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-
1. - First of all they said he was born 1857 - but it is very plain on the image AGED 4
2. - Then he's Robinson not Robertson
3. - Then I believe he was born too soon.... :P
1871
Mary Ann Reading 1849 age 22 Poplar, Middlesex, England Servant CamberwellSt Giles
Claud Robinson 1857 age 4 Peckham, Surrey, England Son Camberwell St Giles
20 Wilson Road Lambeth Camberwell
Apologies to Liverpool Annie who posted this yesterday and I missed it. She's right that the image says 4, hence an 1867 dob.
But its a bit of a mystery. There's no head of household. Whose 'son' is he? This is at 20 Wilson Road Lambeth.
Number 19 is uninhabited.
At number 18 Wilson Road, Lambeth there's the following family...
William ? Symons, Head, 51, Commander Royal Navy, Plymouth Devon
Georgiana, Wife, 60, Devonport, Devon
Mary, Daur, 20, Pentonville
Elizabeth, Daur, 17, Peckham
Jesse, Daur, 16, Peckham
Georgie, Daur, 12, Peckham
Maria, Daur, 10, Peckham
Eliza Cranmer, 23, Servant, Essex
Wonder if these properties are really part of the same household?
Well done, Annie, if you have found Claude!
cheers
Paul
-
Thank goodness now Paul E and Jonathan W can come back to the real world
:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
Annie
keziah found!!
-
Wonder if Mary Ann is the mother Mary ???
Annie
-
Re Claude home alone (with servant): I've occasionally come across young children of well-off families who are recorded like this on the census with parents absent and child still described as "son". Claude's mother and brother were together in Liverpool, so perhaps the family was in the process of moving there?
Rambler
-
I'm happy to accept that MR - if only so I can get some sleep tonight!
Paul
-
Children of Thomas Muir and Mary (Dale) in Whitby - IGI extracted records:
MARY JANE MUIR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 15 DEC 1829 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
EMMA MUIR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 03 AUG 1843 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
THOMAS MUIR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 07 DEC 1832 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
JAMES MUIR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 03 NOV 1827 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
ANN ELIZABETH MUIR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 14 JAN 1826 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
HANNAH MUIR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 31 MAR 1836 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
RICHARD WILLIAM MUIR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 01 OCT 1839 Whitby, Yorkshire, England
Rambler
-
Another user-submitted IGI entry for a marriage between Mary Elizabeth Wilkinson and James Willam King - sounds possible, but don't know how to confirm/disprove it:
MARY ELIZABETH WILKINSON
Female
Parents:
Father: JONAS WILKINSON
Mother: CHARLOTTE SAINTJOHN
Marriages:
Spouse: JAMES WILLIAM KING
Marriage: 08 MAR 1830 Christ Church, Barbados, Caribbean
Husband Age at Marriage: 31
Wife Age at Marriage: 24
Paul - were the dobs in your Ancestral File extract definite, or estimates?
Elizabeth also found this:
IGI Entry for James William King, son of
James Martin King and Margaret Leslie Forte,
Married Mary Elizabeth Wilkinson 8 Mar 1830
Rambler
-
The dates were 'about' - so not sure where that leaves us.
We could do with an expert on Barbadian genealogy!
cheers
Paul
-
I don't think we ever found George and family in 1871
RG10/3806 Folio 40 Page 71
Still in 11 South Hill Street, Toxteth Park
George Robertson Head Ma 57 Ships Chandler Middlesex
David Son Unm 17 Clerk " "
Elizabeth Clark Servant Unm 26 Domestic Servant Isle of Man
Eleanor Big " " 24 " Liverpool
George's age seems to have altered quite a bit and he's listed as Married I was wondering what had happened to his own children, he has David with him in 1871 and Charles with him in 1881 and neither occasion does he have either George Jnr or John.
-
Paul
There's a girl on the Immigrants board doing Barbados - she might have some tips!!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,48677.0.html
Annie
-
I'm sure there'd be no shortage of volunteers for on-the-spot research - provided someone else picked up the tab! 8)
Rambler
-
http://www.candoo.com/surnames/caribbean_k.txt
This gives a few Kings with their e-mail addy's. Lesanne.
-
Just found Ship immigrant list for Barbados.
Can anyone remember the ships names...
Lesanne. ;D
-
Hi,
There is a summary of everything so far that Manchester Rambler has done.
It can be found here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.0.html
Sue
-
Hiya,
I have a John Muir (26) staying with my Charles Craze family.
112, Harford Street. Mile End. in 1881.
We were looking for Muir's, weren't we? :-\
Lesanne. ;D
-
Hi,
I found this on the CORNELL/CORNWELL/CORNWALL Query Page. I have sent an e-mail to the person submitting this information and have given them the links to see what we are doing.
CORNELL, Rev. Thomas Vial, born about 1825 in England, m. Eliza Wilson Molison on 21 Sep. 1848 at St Dunstan, Stepney. She was the daughter of Alexander Strachan Molison of Morant Cottage, Blackheath Rd, Greenwich, Co. Kent, whose 1878 will appointed Cornell as his executor. Looking for anyone with knowledge of this Cornell line or especially the Molisons.
Hopefully they will join in.
Sue
Sorry Pam, I see you had already found this link.
This thread is getting very long to follow!
-
Had anyone noted that on the 1881 census Charlotte G Muir is living at 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire with 4 siblings and a servant.
They are entertaining 3 guests who include a ship owner and his wife
-
Elizabeth - Hi
Who????
Annie
-
OK I've got it - good eye Elizabeth!!!!
Mary Gilchrist 1836 Lanarkshire, Scotland Visitor 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park,
Robt. Gilchrist 1829 Montrose, Scotland Visitor 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park,
Emma Harrison 1857 St Helens, Lancashire, England Visitor 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park
Charlotte G. Muir 1868 At Sea Daughter (Sister) 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park,
Gertrude Muir 1873 Liverpool Daughter (Sister) 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park,
James E. Muir 1866 Sri Lanka Son (Brother) 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park,
Mary Barrow Muir 1862 London Middlesex, England Daughter (Head) 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park
Reginald L. Muir 1871 Bombay, India Son (Brother)20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park
Ann Grant 1857 Liverpool Servant 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire,
OK these guys have already been noted - before you yell at me - I KNOW !!!!
-
OK did you guys have the 25,000 Gilchrists listed here...??!!
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/gilchrist/page4.html
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/gilchrist/page6.html
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/gilchrist/page7.html
Annie
-
Way back on page 8 Pam mentioned something about the ship Edwin Fox, in relation to Alexander Strachan Molison.
The Edwin Fox is in New Zealand and is in the process of being restored. If anyone is interested in old ships this is worth a look:
www.nzmaritime.co.nz/edwinfox.htm
As part of the timeline about the ship's life there is this entry:
1867 February 23 Captain Alexander J. Molison of Brechin, Scotland aged 32 died while living ashore, as was the custom, at Bombay from Typhoid Fever. Captain Alexander Stachan [sic] Molison, aged 65 years, probably a distant relative, assumed command. He was one of the ship's owners.
Ros
-
Boy there's loads of stuff on Google - WOOHOO.... !!!!
http://www.gregormacgregor.com/Tod&Macgregor/tod_and_macgregor_main.htm
This is the company Gilchrist worked for
http://www.geocities.com/mppraetorius/com-ch.htm
Boy - you can tell I'm a Scouse - I love ships and boats and the Mersey ferry !!
Annie
-
from Hoad Bros. site
FREAK
Ship description British Sailing Smack 74 tons
Builder HOAD Bros. Rye
History Listed in Clayton's Register of Shipping 1865 Rye.
Sunk 24th May 1886, Location 100 yards west of Farlight
cargo Granite Boulders
Master or Officer J. Martin. Listed in Clayton's Register of Shipping 1865 Rye
History Master G ROBERTSON - Number of crew 2 - Lost in a force six south-westerly gale
Is this one of the Georges??
Annie
-
Why are we looking for Gilchrists when we have not established any direct link with them to Robertsons or Muirs or Molisons.
Although I must say I do like the link to New Zealand - my home country :)
-
Wow - looks like the nightshift (or day shift depending on where you are :)) has been busy!
We've all been putting feelers out to 'outsiders' to join this discussion - but they must think we are quite mad as there have been no takers yet!
I rad about a CD that's available on early Barbados settlers. Does anyone have acces to this by any chance?
cheers
Paul
-
Still in Barbados (alas, not literally!) - a reminder that we already have a possible marriage for Charlotte Maria Ann Jenkins Wilkinson King's parents:
James William King m. Mary Elizabeth Wilkinson on 08 Mar 1830. (He was 31, she was 24.)
James' parents are given as James Martin King and Margaret Leslie Forte.
Mary's parents are given as Jonas Wilkinson and Charlotte St John.
The marriage is a user-submitted IGI record. IGI extracted records give 10 possible children for the couple, plus 2 user-submitted ones (marked *)
Georgiana Cummins King, chr. 03 Aug 1832 Saint Michael, Barbados
Charlotte Maria Ann Jenkins King, chr. 03 Nov 1833 Saint Michael, Barbados
Frances Ann St John King, chr. 09 Oct 1835 Saint Michael, Barbados
Eliza Thomas King, chr. 28 Sep 1836 , Barbados*
Thomas Nathan King, chr. 30 Oct 1839 , Barbados*
Margaret Bovell King, chr. 30 Dec 1840 Saint Michael, Barbados
James William King, chr. 30 Nov 1841 Saint Michael, Barbados
Hannah King, chr. 14 Jul 1843 Saint John, Barbados
James King, chr. 09 Oct 1844 Saint John, Barbados
Francis Brereton King, chr. 05 May 1847 Saint John, Barbados
George Bovell King, chr. 21 Jul 1848 Saint John, Barbados
Jane Harriet Laurie King, chr. 26 Dec 1849 Saint John, Barbados
Rambler
-
May I interject a question here?
Since Allan starts his life as a cotton broker and since Dallas in that period was a force to be reckoned with in the sphere of cotton, does anyone know anything about the commodity's history that could place either or both of them in Texas in 1913?
-
Another useful summary - thanks MR!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.0.html
From the IGI (submitted entry)
Marriage of Charlotte Muir's Maternal Great Grandparent:
28 March 1789, Christ Church Barbados
Margaret Leslie Forte and James Martin King (father of James William King) Margaret was 16 at date of marriage
Margaret's parents listed as William Fortemar and Margaret Leslie.
Another user-submitted entry:
Christening of Mary Leslie Forte: 9 May 1773 at St Thomas, Barbados
Died 23 September 1831
An extracted record:
Marriage of William Forte and Margaret Leslie, 28 December 1767 at St Thomas, Barbados
17th century - here we come! :)
-
And, from a submitted entry to the IGI, also for the marriage of William and Margaret on 28 December 1767:
Margrett Leslie
Father: Henry Lesliekatt
Mother: Katherine
Paul
-
The other side of Charlotte's family (anothe ruser submitted record on the IGI):
Mary Elizabeth Wilkinson
Birth: 30 MAR 1805
Christening: 02 MAR 1810 Saint Philip, Barbados, Caribbean
Death: 11 JAN 1842
Parents Jonas Wilkinson and Charlotte St John (as per marriage record found by MR)
-
Marriage of Jonas and Charlotte (user submitted IGI record:)
18 April 1801 at St Thomas, Barbados
Jonas aged 35
Charlotte aged 17
Jonas' parents: Light Wilkinson and Elizabeth Hollinshead
Charlotte's parents: Charles St Jo and Francis Christee
Extracted IGI record:
Marriage of Light Wilkinson and Eliza Hollinge on 22 December 1757, St John, Barbados
And from a user submitted entry:
22 December 1757, Light Wilkinson and Elizabeth Hollinshed
Light's parents: Richard Wilkinson and Constantia Light
Elizabeth's parents: Edward Hollinshe and Elizabeth
-
Duncan Dunbar Molison
Died 15 March 1913
at Broadwater, 24 Montrell Road, Streatham Hill
Aged 67
son of Alexander Strachan Molison
The Times Mar 18, 1913
++
Justina Louisa Molison
Died 7 July 1935 at Brighton
widow of Duncan Dunbar Molison
and last surviving child of John Wallis Shores of Worthing Sussex
in her 86th year
No flowers :(
The Times 9 July 1935
Jonathan
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IGI extracted record:
Jonas Wilkinson, christened 26 July 1768, St Phillip, Barbados
Parents Lyte Wilkinson and Elizabeth
Also with same parents, christened 1777 St Phillip, Barbados is Nathaniel Wilkinson
From a user submitted entry:
Jonas Wilkinson:
Parents Lyte Wilkinson and Elizabeth Hollinshead
Birth: 07 MAR 1766
Christening: 20 JUL 1768 Saint Philip, Barbados, Caribbean
Death: 16 AUG 1843
No obvious record for Lyte Wilkinson's birth, but there is a Jonas Wilkinson 3 February 1730 (parents Richard Wilkinson and Constantia Light) in a user submitted file - Lyte's brother.
-
Duncan Dunbar Molison
Died 15 March 1913
at Broadwater, 24 Montrell Road, Streatham Hill
Aged 67
son of Alexander Strachan Molison
The Times Mar 18, 1913
++
Justina Louisa Molison
Died 7 July 1935 at Brighton
widow of Duncan Dunbar Molison
and last surviving child of John Wallis Shores of Worthing Sussex
in her 86th year
No flowers :(
The Times 9 July 1935
Jonathan
John Wallis Shores is the brother of Sarah Ann Shores, Alexander Strachan Molison's second wife - here they are on the 1871 census:
John Wallis Shores abt 1825 Poplar, Middlesex, England Head
Charles Latham Shores abt 1854 Poplar, Middlesex, England Son
Duncan Dunbar Shores abt 1856 Worthing, Sussex, England Son
Sarah Ann Shores abt 1837 Poplar, Middlesex, England Sister
Emily Frances Ede abt 1842 Clapham, Sussex, England Servant
Mary Knight abt 1842 Worthing, Sussex, England Servant
So Sarah Ann married Alexander Strachan Molison, and her niece Justina married Alexander's son Duncan Dunbar Molison. Note that Justina also has a brother named Duncan Dunbar Shores - the original Duncan Dunbar was a business partner of Alexander Molison.
Rambler
-
Lots of mentions in The Times in the 1840-50-60 of Molison Notice to Shippers.
This one might be interesting as it indicates the company name which appears frequently ...
For Bombay direct the splendid fast sailing ship Earl Grey. A 1,750 tons, belonging to D. Dunbar and Sons of Limehouse. Alexander S Molison Commander loading at the East India Docks. Has very superior accommodation for passengers and will carry an experienced surgeon. For freight or passage contact Messrs R. Eglington and Co, Old Jewry Chambers or Henry Thompson and Co, 2 Cowpers Court, Cornhill.
The Times April 22, 1844
Jonathan
-
Duncan Dunbar Molison
Died 15 March 1913
at Broadwater, 24 Montrell Road, Streatham Hill
Aged 67
son of Alexander Strachan Molison
The Times Mar 18, 191
++
Justina Louisa Molison
Died 7 July 1935 at Brighton
widow of Duncan Dunbar Molison
and last surviving child of John Wallis Shores of Worthing Sussex
in her 86th year
No flowers :(
The Times 9 July 1935
Jonathan
Jonathan W,
Very nice indeed!!
I think I posted about Duncan Dunbar MOLISON and wife Justin(e/a) Louise SHORES - and from the 1881 census a chap who was probably Justine's brother {Duncan Dunbar SHORES b 1855, son of a John Wallis SHORES and a Justina}.
But I'm struggling here - what was the original question on this thread, I wonder!
Whatever it was, the OP must now have enormous amounts of information!!
Let's hope that the OP will come back and set out in excellent detail the whole family history!!
JAP
-
Hi JAP
The original purpose of the thread? :)
Merely, as an 'academic exercise', to assemble as much information as is possible within a month about the chosen individual, his ancestors, descendents et al.
Think of it as a genealogical alternative to Sudoko! :)
Paul
-
Initially, Barbados had one of the largest white populations of all of the English colonies. From that standpoint, it served as a launching pad for migration to many of the other Caribbean islands, as well as the colonies of Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Maryland.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~brbwgw/
Barbados Parish Map
http://www.rootsweb.com/~brbwgw/ParishMap.htm
Cool - a gorgeous HUGE map of Barbados
http://www.caribbean-on-line.com/br/brmap.shtml
Heres someone on Rootsweb looking for the same names at Rootsweb
http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/rw/localities.caribbean.barbados.general/408
KING, WILKINSON, DESPRAY, SAINTJOHN, HOLLINSHEAD, CHRISTEE, LIGHT, CLARKE, COX, PUCKETT
BD
-
Hope you've asked them to join us, BD! :)
Paul
-
Hiya Paul E,
The purpose is one thing, the original question another.
I was just wondering whether I'd lost sight of the original question, old thing (says she from her geriatric height!).
As for Sudoko - well, that's very recently (past week or so) taken hold of the local Antipodean newspapers. I'm sorry to say that I found it boring in the extreme! OK, I did a few - but why bother was my only reaction. I prefer word puzzles and jigsaw puzzles - not to mention puzzles where there is more than one answer! Perhaps my dear late old Grandpa - a lightning calculator - would be rotating in the proverbial grave and wouldn't agree!
Cheers,
JAP
-
Well, we've sure got more than one answer here, JAP!
More from the IGI - a user submitted entry:
Marriage of Charles St John and Frances Christie (parents of Charlotte St John who married Jonas Wilkinson):
13 DEC 1778 Saint Thomas, Barbados
cheers
Paul
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Hiya Paul E,
The purpose is one thing, the original question another.
I was just wondering whether I'd lost sight of the original question, old thing (says she from her geriatric height!).
Cheers,
JAP
Actually JAP,
There was NO original question. If you went back to page 1 you would read the following....
For newcomers to the monthly challenge, the aim is to see how much we can discover about Allan before the end of the month - ancestors, siblings, descendants, occupation, lifestyle... He was genuinely chosen at random, and may have died the day after the census, in which case we'll work on his family!
And this is the subject.
Allan Robertson - found at RG11/3646 Folio 97 Page 50 on the 1881 census.
So far we have managed to trace his wife's family back to Barbados. ;D
BD
-
Hi Guys,
I know we're going backwards, but, forwards there's a Sir Malcolm Robertson. 1877.
Very Naval background, with a bit of Scotland for heritage.
Found him while looking at/for Claude.....
:) Lesanne. :)
-
1871 a very interesting family if this is them ... first time for James on the census?
Peter St, Claremont?, Harlow, Essex
Alexandria?? S Molison abt 1803 Scotland Head
Sarah Ann abt 1837 London, Middlesex, England Wife
Molison abt 1871 Harlow, Essex, England Son
Eliza Wils Molison abt 1848 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
Louisa Helen Molison abt 1869 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
James Robertson abt 1843 London, Middlesex, England Visitor
Mary Marl Robertson abt 1844 London, Middlesex, England Visitor
plus 4 servants
Alexandria (Alexander?) is a Ship Owner
James is a Commercial Clerk.
The Mary Marl bit is Mar with a superscript l.
James and Mary noted as married.
RG10/1641
Folio: 63
Page: 3
Jonathan
Looking for James Robertson in 1861...
Not much that looks right for a dob in 1843, but the James in this household (b1846) in Hackney St John Middlesex is working as a Merchant's Clerk...
And I like the DOUGLAS
Emma Millar abt 1828 West Hackney, Middlesex, Sister-in-law
Emma Robertson abt 1819 St Pancras, Middlesex, Wife
Fred Wm Robertson abt 1845 Islington, Middlesex, Son
Henry Ernest Robertson abt 1857 Islington, Middlesex, Son
Herbert Edward Robertson abt 1853 Islington, Middlesex, Son
Jane Douglas Robertson abt 1855 Islington, Middlesex, Daughter
Jas Douglas Robertson abt 1846 Islington, Middlesex, Son
Walter Jordas Robertson abt 1852 Islington, Middlesex, Son
William Robertson abt 1823 Scotland Head
RG9/155
Folio: 143
Page: 2
Views anyone?
-
Can anyone follow this up - I don't have e-mail access at the moment, otherwise I would do it myself:
From the Wirral Globe published on Wednesday 07 October 1998:
The bench connection!
JOHN ROBERTSON of Sudbury, Suffolk, has re-established his family seat in Wirral!
His firm has just supplied garden furniture to the Devon Doorway, Gayton, reviving a long-standing family connection.
Mr Robertson explains the link:
"The architect who designed the Devon Doorway to be like a dream country residence was a Mr Webster. His son, Michael Webster, was my best man when I married in 1962. Michael Webster was born in Wallasey, a director of a timber company in Liverpool and past commodore of West Cheshire Sailing Club.
"I was born in Wallasey and lived in Gayton. My father, John Alan Robertson, was former president of Liverpool Timber Trade Association. I was a member of Heswall Golf Club. My father-in-law, Henry T. Hough, was for many years the LIverpool City Engineer. My grandfather was a cotton merchant, who lived in Wallasey.
Just wondering if there is a connection with Alan Roberston (or even Claude? :))
Website: http://www.johnrobertson.ltd.uk/jumbrella.html
has an e-mail contact.
Maybe a speculative e-mail asking him to look at the thread?
cheers
Paul
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Blimey I just found another person looking for the same Muir/Wilkinson connection on Rootsweb, I'm sending an email right now - although the last post was dated 2002 :)
I am looking for information on James Muir, who was born 16 Dec 1766 in Sanday, Orkney, Scotland and was christened a month later in London, England (14 Jan 1767). He was a sea captain (as were many of his descendents). He married Ann Robinson, of Whitby, Yorkshire, England. They had 3 children, all born in Whitby.
One of these was my ancestor, Thomas Muir, b. 10 April 1799, in Whitby. He married Mary Dale, in Whitby. They had 8 children, one of these was my ancestor, James Muir, b. 1827. He married Charlotte Maria Ann Wilkinson King, of Barbados. Their son, Reginald Muir was my ancestor (b. 1870 on a ship off Bombay Harbor, India.
If anyone else is working on this line, please contact me. Thanks!
-
Great find BD - hope you get an answer!
Rambler
-
Yes - great find! I had a look on GR for Muirs in Orkney and there's a James Muir b1847 in Sanday, Orkney, and the person has a few links going back to 1715 in their tree. I've sent them a GR message and asked them to look at this board.
We're not getting much luck with outsiders chipping in yet! :)
Paul
-
But of course I have to remind myself we are only into day 3 of the Challenge! :) :) :)
What a great subject you picked Rambler!
Paul
-
Some encouraging signs - this from GenesReunited:
Gosh,
Found it. Do you guys work for the NSA!! Reading through this it is amazing in relation to your enquiry skills.
Many thanks.
I will work out how to track off this thread and let our Lyte investigators know
Best regards,
Vic
Looking forward to hearing from you, Vic!
Paul
-
I remember somebody saying -" Only 2 people in the houseshold in 1881 - thats going to be interesting........................................... ::) ::)
D'you think they could have been involved in the Slave Trade ???
Annie
-
Rambler didnt pick Alan, his kids did:)
The kids did a great job Rambler :)
-
I have also sent an email to John Robertson - the man whos grandfather was a cotton merchant. Hope we get a nice reply there too. :)
-
And now I have to go back to work.....again :(
So if John Robertson or Melinda show up (melinda is the rootsweb person I sent an email too), please make them welcome, and I will see you all again in 8 hours.
Ciao
BD
-
I remember somebody saying -" Only 2 people in the houseshold in 1881 - thats going to be interesting........................................... ::) ::)
D'you think they could have been involved in the Slave Trade ???
Annie
Do we think any of Charlotte ancestor's might have been Barbados/Caribbean native? - still thinking of Alan having brown hair and brown eyes :)
BD
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Don't know if this fits anywhere, just noticed the coincidence of names but I'll chuck it in ....
JOHN WILLIAM ROBERTSON
Birth: 01 SEP 1873 Dunbar, East Lothian, Scotland
MARION BATHGATE ROBERTSON
Birth: 24 JUL 1871 Dunbar, East Lothian, Scotland
Parents -
Father: James Robertson
Mother: Mary Marshall
From the IGI
Jonathan
-
Don't know if this fits anywhere, just noticed the coincidence of names but I'll chuck it in ....
JOHN WILLIAM ROBERTSON
Birth: 01 SEP 1873 Dunbar, East Lothian, Scotland
MARION BATHGATE ROBERTSON
Birth: 24 JUL 1871 Dunbar, East Lothian, Scotland
Parents -
Father: James Robertson
Mother: Mary Marshall
From the IGI
Jonathan
This would fit since James & Mary married in 1866 and Claude who was born in 1867 is the oldest child we've (sort of :) ) found so far and there were 5 years between the births of Claude and Al(l)an and 4 years between the births of Al(l)an and Mary.
Have we found Al(l)an's older brother and another sister? I'm going to have a look for possible death records for these children as we haven't found them with the family in any of the census records. The only fly in the ointment is the place of birth - Claude, Al(l)an and Mary were all born in the London area.
Allan
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I'm probably WAY late on this -- scanned thread and couldn't find previous entry nor in Summary so if already noted and/or discarded, my apologises...
1881 13 Arbour St. West Hamlet, London
Alexander Robertson Head
47 b. 1834 Scotland
Profession: Clerk in Ships Broker (think I saw this posted b/4)
Wife Isabella I. b. 1841 Scotland
Dau Alexandra A b. 1869 Camberwell Surrey
Son Gilbert C. b. 1873 So. Hackney Middlesex
Dau Isabella B b. 1879 Pooplar Middlesex
Unknown, Murray b. 1880 Poplar Middlesex
Unknown, Gilbert C b. 1880 Poplar Middlesex
Source: RG11/04/0475
Mile End Old Town, Western
22
Folio 67 Page 25
1881 Address: 80 Balsall Heath Rd., Edgbaston Warwickshire
John Robertson, Head, Married
Age in 1881: 38 Est. birth abt 1843
Where born: Scotland
Wife Clara b. 1843 Scotland
Dau, Clara b. 1866 Camberwell Surrey
Visitor, Edward Litchfield b. 1851 Stowe Radnorshire, Wales
Servant, George Shaw b. 1865 Sharmes Cross Warwickshire
Occupation: Coml Traveller (Wine & Spirit)
Source information: RG11/2954
Registration district: Kings Norton
Sub-registration district: Edgbaston
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Folio: 35
Page: 63
Noting Scotland born Heads of House, Professions and both have dau b. in Camberwell in similar time frame as Allan Robertson.
kathy
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Going back to the two possible siblings that Jonathan found:
I can't find any likely death records on free BMD nor can I find them in the 1881 or 1891 England censuses. Does anyone have the Scottish censuses to have a look for these two to try and make or discard a link?
Allan
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Do we think any of Charlotte ancestor's might have been Barbados/Caribbean native? - still thinking of Alan having brown hair and brown eyes
Just a thought, if he had been would he have been allowed to stay at the Park Avenue Hotel?
I can't find anything on the IGI for a George, James and John all with the same parents. Does anybody have access to the 1851 census where they might possibly be together?
-
Impy is looking for a Thomas King with Barbados connections - I told her to check us out here....! ::)
Annie
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Paul - your James Douglas Robertson on census is certainly the right time frame, but his father is too young to be the father of George (b. 1820). These brothers are causing problems!
Kathy - more potentially related families! How can we fit them together?
MaryA - keep looking for those brothers! The problem with their wide spread of birth dates is that we might be looking for the same father, but different mothers.
Burrow Digger - native Carribean ancestry? That would be a nice twist! It would be a fair way back, so perhaps sufficiently diluted to fool the Park Lane Hotel?
Well done everyone for digging up potential contacts - hope we get some feedback! Will check back in couple of hours after running the shuttle service to kids' music lessons/gym club/aikido - they deserve it after picking Allan for us!
Rambler
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Do we have an Alexander Robertson or was that the other family ???
Anyways I've found an Alexander in Canada.................. I was looking for Claude really Paul.... !!!
Alexander Fraser Robertson
B: 13 Mar 1862
London, [county]
D: 19 Jan 1900
Blenheim, Kent, ON, Canada
Married
21 Aug 1886 in Toronto, [county], ON, Canada
Anna Maud Willson
Birth: 26 Aug 1861 in Blenheim, Kent, ON, Canada
Death: 6 May 1947 in Harwich, Kent, ON, Canada
Children
Lynn Willson Robertson M 16 Nov 1888 in Toronto, [county], ON, Canada
John Ross Robertson M 16 Oct 1894 in Blenheim, Kent, ON, Canada
Annie :P :P
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Well, here are some more interesting flies in the ointment -- these are some "travelling" families --- and another Canada connection too!
1920 US Census
Allan C. Robertson Note: Middle Initial C and G. previously noted/Questioned
Age: 47
Est birth year: 1873
Birthplace: Scotland M/F: Scotland
Race: White
Profession: Marine Surveyor
Home in 1920: Hempstead, Nassau, New York
Year of immigration: 1900
Wife Marion 47 b. 1873 Scotland M/F: Scotland (could go by “Mary”)
Dau, Isabell 15 b. 1905 in New York
Son, Eugene 13 b. 1907 in New York
Dau, Mary 10 b. 1910 in Washington (State or DC ??)
Son, Thomas 4 b. 1916 in Canada Immigration year: 1919
Roll: T625_1127
Page: 20B
ED: 17
Image: 536
1920 US Census
Thomas A Robertson
Age: 44
Est birth year: abt 1876
Birthplace: England
Race: White
Home in 1920: Manhattan, New York, New York, on West 44th Street
Business Address: 555 W. 42nd Street
Profession: Cart & Apron Supplier
Wife Sara E 45 b. 1875 Eng M/F: Eng Immi. Year: 1899
Son, Arthur 19 b. 1901 Boston Profession: Travelling, on a visit
Dau, Doris G. 14 b. 1906 England Immigration Year: 1905
Son, Thomas G. 10 b. 1910 New York
Roll :T625_1193
Page: 2B
ED: 404
Image:250
kathy
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Got onto a tombstones in Barbados site and found these :P :P
Last Name Other Names Date of Birth Date of Death Site
ROBERTSON ELIBTH .... ... 24 Westbury Cemetery
ROBERTSON J. 1852 Nov St. Matthias
Notes: HMS'Dauntless', yellow fever, 34th Reg, 69th Reg St. Thomas
don't know if the 1852 Nov is birth or death date ...
Annie
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What part of Scotland again ???
Daniel Robertson: (1733 - 1810)
Daniel was born in Dunkeld, Scotland in 1733. In 1754 Daniel was appointed Surgeons mate of the 42nd Foot Reg't. and in June of that year he was transfered with the reg't. to Albany, N.Y. In 1760 he was at the capture of Montreal and about this time, married Marie-Louise Reaume (widow of Joseph Fournerie de Vezon). By 1782 he was commanding the newly built British fort on Mackinac Island.
Daniel & Marie-Louise's children were, Margaret (b.abt.1781) (m.Donald Sutherland), Elizabeth (m. Louis-Hypolite Hertel), Charlotte (m.Dr.John Farries) & John (m. Miss Christy in 1794).
By 1787 Daniel had left the British Army and was operating a tavern on Mackinac Is. and about this time freed his slaves Jean & Marie Bonga (from the West Indies) whose decendents were involved in the fur-trade and married into the Ojibwe tribe in Lake Superior country. He died in Montreal on 5 April 1810.
-
This looks to be Alexander C. and Marian who were in Nassau Co., NY (Long Lisland) in 1920: Note another dau listed
1930 Rockville Centre, Nassau, New York (Long Island suburb of NYC) Cleveland Avenue
A. C. Robertson Head
Age: 57
Est birth year: abt 1873
Birthplace: Scotland Immig. Year: 1898 M/F: b. Scotland
Profession: Marine Surveyor
Race: White
Spouse's Name: Marian Robertson 57 <1873) b. in Scot. MF: b. Scot Immi: 1900
Dau, Isabel 25 b. New York No Profession
Dau, Jane 23 b. in New York Stenographer
Dau, Mary 20 b. Washington Nurse Trained/Training ??
Son, Thomas 14 b. Ontario, Canada Immi. 1919
Image source: Year: 1930; Census Place: Rockville Centre, Nassau, New York; Roll: 1459; Page: 2B; Enumeration District: 72; Image: 393.0.
1930 Thomas and Sara & Family who were in Manhattan 1920 (Cart & Apron Supplier) can’t find them
1930 Brooklyn, Kings, New York
Wm A Robertson Head
Age: 50
Est birth year: abt 1880 Birthplace: Canada M/F b. in Scotland
Wife - Sarah Robertson 56 b. in Canada M/F: Canada
No Children or other s living in household
Profession: Chief something something (can’t read)
Image source: Year: 1930; Census Place: Brooklyn, Kings, New York; Roll: 1521; Page: 3B; Enumeration District: 1338; Image: 584.0.
Not sure about above Wm. A. but since we have a Canadian link going thought better to include/discard than not.
Are we getting too all over the place? Hard to tell with a family so geographically diversified.
kathy
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I'm confused about where in Scotland Robertson's may originate also. Tried to IGI search for any connections between
Alexander b. 1834 Scot w/ wife Isabella
John b. 1843 Scot w/ wife Clara
Allan C. b. 1873 Scot w/ wife Marion/Marian
as well as Thomas A. b. 1876 Eng w/ wife Sara
but hundred and hundred of possibilities and I'm lost on likely location. Not a Scot, you know......
kathy
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Wouldn't this be something - and he was born in Rodney St Liverpool !!!
Name William Ewart Gladstone
Birth Date December 29, 1809
Death Date May 19, 1898
Place of Birth Liverpool, England
Nationality English
Gender Male
Occupations politician, prime minister, member of parliament
William Gladstone was born in Liverpool on Dec. 29, 1809. His parents were of Scottish descent. His father, Sir John Gladstone, was descended from the Gledstanes of Lanarkshire; he had moved to Liverpool and become a wealthy merchant. William's mother, Anne Robertson of Stornaway, was John Gladstone's second wife, and William was the fifth child and fourth son of this marriage.
Annie ::) ::)
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Blimey! Annie --- you are so right --- what a big deal this would be --- but let's not get too excited until homework done on Anne Robertson.
Wondering if Robertson was Anne's maiden name or from a previous marriage and if she had previous children?
Stupid question from a Yank-- where is Stornaway?
GREAT find! Really exciting if it works its way through this maze we are in.
kathy
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With so many of them apparently having married their cousins I wouldn't be surprised if we turned up a Royal connection for this family as well :)
There should be a special prize for the first person to find an Ag. Lab. in this tree ;D
-
You're right Al !
I'm still trying to find Claude :P :P :P :P ::)
Annie
but doesn't this look cool... ::)
1881 census
William E. Gladstone abt 1810 Liverpool, Lancashire Head 10 Downing St, St Margaret, London
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I don't want to erm rain on any parade but ROBERTSON is a very common name especially in Scotland and some of the places being mentiioned are very far apart ;D
Pam
;D
-
Come on Pam !!
Us Scousers have to stick together - William Ewart was one of us - if fact I have an Uncle named after him
couldn't understand where the heck Ewart came from - for years I thought it was a maiden name :P :P :P :P
You're the Scots expert tell us where we should be looking.........!
Annie ::)
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Annie, are you sure your Kings aren't connected? ;D
I'm still working on George's family, wondering if the middle names fitted in somewhere, so an amendment here to anybody who read the sons names back in the 1861 census
George Robertson abt 1820 London, Middlesex, England Head
Mary Walker Robertson abt 1822 Port Glasgow, Scotland Wife
George Wood Robertson abt 1852 London, Middlesex, England Son
David Robertson abt 1854 London, Middlesex, England Son
Charles Wood Robertson abt 1856 London, Middlesex, England Son
John Wood Robertson abt 1858 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son
David Gilkison abt 1820 Port Glasgow, Scotland Visitor
Mary Ann Jones abt 1840 Mold, Wales Servant
Sarah Catherine Money abt 1838 Monaghan, Ireland Servant
Alice Jane Wilford abt 1838 Doncaster, Yorkshire, England Servant
So this part of the family moved from London to Liverpool between 1856 and 1858
Charle's name is actually
Charles Moody Robertson born December qtr 1855 Stepney, 1c 517
Moody sounds Scottish to me.
-
I must admit I did get excited when I saw the Charlotte Maria ..... :P :P
but she isn't mine - wouldn't that have been cool ???
I think Moody is a Newfoundland name too and theres Scots there
Annie
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I know the christian names don't match but seeing the Muir/Robertson combination under Irregular Marriages, Scotland, I just had to look it up and thought it would amuse you.
--(failed to get date, between 1805-17) Robert Muir + Janet Robertson--irregularly married 3 years ago due to antenuptial fornication--adherance was taken--clerk's dues paid, 5s to the poor paid--rebuked.
From an interesting site about Paisley High Parish, Renfrewshire, ca 1790-1820
http://www.geocities.com/mjjodoin/irreg.htm#7
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Must have been worth it to pay the 5 bob......... ::) ::)
Annie
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This is a possible David in 1881, maybe he returned to London
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
David ROBERTSON Head U Male 27 London Limehouse , London, Middlesex, England Rope & Sail Maker Empy 100 To 200 M & F
~~~~~~~~
Source Information:
Dwelling 8 Furnivals Inn
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341074
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0342 / 119
Page Number 12
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There is a Claude Robertson born in Blackheath1869.
Parents Charles and Alice Mary both b1841, Charles in Liverpool. Alice in Sydney Aus. Following these through I find Daniel Robertson.
Submitter Blaine Eugene Wade. 225 Dartmouth Drive. Bristol. TN37620.
Is that U.S.A. or England Bristol.?
Now, please forgive if all this has been said, I've just got in from work,
only backread 3 pages.
I promise to keep up from now.
;D Lesanne.
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Lesanne,
I'm wondering how anybody can possibly keep up, I don't envy MR doing the summaries at all.
That's not a British postcode so I suspect it must be USA.
Extra Info
TN = Tennessee but that Zip code seems to refer to a different address, 224 Edgewood Rd, Bristol but still a Wade - William J Wade and I think this might be a phone number (423)968-2418
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No Lesanne !!
that's not our Claude.... :P
Our Claude born Peckham ( or Camberwell depending on which census you're reading !!) 1867/1868
Mother Mary
Father supposed to be James
Annie
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OK everyone: by tomorrow morning (CET) I'll post details of the Robertsons we need to follow up on the SUMMARIES thread. (It'll take me till then to sort them out!) In the meantime, I think Pam is right to remind us that Robertson is a relatively common Scottish name, so unless new families have very similar names, locations and occupations, we could spend a lot of time on a wild goose chase.
MaryA has located George Robertson's son David (Allan's cousin) on the 1881 census. Can anyone find him in 1891/1901? I suppose older brother George would inherit the family firm?
Rambler
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William Ewart Gladstone
"Ewart" comes from a family friend to his father, Sir John
Sir John Gladstone m. Anna MacKenzie Robertson
April 29, 1800 St. Peters Church Street Liverpool
Children:
John
Thomas
Anne
Robertson
Helen
William Ewert b. 1809
William Gladstone m. Catherine Glynne dau of Sir Stephen Glynne (maternal line connects to Grenville)
Saw an "Anne Glynne Robertson" in IGI but didn't have this connection before. Will go back and see if I can find it again.
kathy
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Charlotte Muir's maternal grandmother was Mary Elizabeth Wilkinson, dau of Jonas Wilkinson and Charlotte St John. Here for completeness are her siblings, with a couple of interesting middle names which might provide clues to previous generations.
William Wilkinson, chr. 03 Mar 1802
Mary Elizabeth Wilkinson, b. 30 Mar 1805
James Wilkinson, chr. 02 Mar 1810
Frances Ann Wilkinson, b. 07 May 1811
Charlotte Maria Wilkinson, b. 07 Apr 1813
Jane Grant Wilkinson, b. 14 May 1815
Georgiana Wilkinson, b. 18 Apr 1817
Jonas Lyte Wilkinson, b. 13 7 1819
Charles St John Wilkinson, b. 12 Sep 1821
Sarah Martin Byam Wilkinson, chr. 23 Aug 1829
Wilhelmina Dalzel Wilkinson, chr. 23 Aug 1829
(All Barbados)
Rambler
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Same thing for Charlotte's maternal grandfather, James William King, son of James Martin King and Margaret Leslie Forte. He and his siblings were all christened in Barbados as follows:
Margaret Elizabeth King, chr. 24 Nov 1793
Samuel Forte King, chr. 24 Nov 1793
James William King, chr. 28 May 1798
Robert King, chr. 28 May 1798
Ann Sedwick King, chr. 2 Feb 1809
Nathaniel Forte King, chr. 2 Feb 1809
Rambler
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Hi all
Brilliant thread. I got lost way back about page 5 so have started putting the info down on paper ??? Probably be still here in July scribbling away.
My husband thinks I'm mad ;D
Susan
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Sorry bout that folks. ;D
As Claude isn't that common a name.
Thought they might be cousin's, that's all, 4 now.
Lesanne. ::)
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There should be a special prize for the first person to find an Ag. Lab. in this tree ;D
I like it All :)
I like it a lot! :) :) :)
Its nice to have a diversion from all the miners in my own tree, too!
Paul
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OK I am back from work ;D and have read the last 3 pages. :)
No responses to the 2 emails I sent out - but I have found a second email for Melinda, so I will resend the email to the second email addy.
In the meantime below is what Melinda posted at Rootsweb on the Barbados board. I'm thinking we might have several connections here.
what do you guys think?? ;D
--------------------------
I am at a standstill in each of these lines. I am hoping that someone else may have further information, if you do, please let me know. Thank you!
BETTENY, Henry (daughter was Grace Betteny, m. John Wilkinson before 1677)
m. Margrett (surname unknown)
d. 1677
CHRISTEE, Robert (parents MIGHT have been Samuel Christy and Mary Clarke)
b. abt. 1730
m. Elvira Ann Cox, 28 May 1754, St. Joseph, Barbados
CLARKE, Isabella
b. abt 1700 (maybe in St. Philip, Barbados, but not sure)
m. Charles St. John (or Saintjohn), 12 Oct 1721, St. Philip, Barbados
COX, Elvira Ann
b. abt. 1735
m. Robert Christee, 28 May 1754, St. Joseph, Barbados
DESPRAY, Jahann
m. James Sedgwick King, abt. 1765, St. Michael, Barbados
HOLLINSHED, Edward (possibley the son of Edward Hollingshead, b. abt. 1601, and Mary)
b. abt. 1640
m. Mary Son___, 22 Feb 1664/5, St. John, Barbados
KING, James Sedgwick
b. abt 1740
m. Jahann Despray, abt 1765, St. Michael, Barbados
LIGHT, Richard
b. abt 1601
m. Dorothy
d. 1679, St. Philip, Barbados
PINKETT, Mary E.
b. abt. 1685
m. (Joseph?) Wilkinson, 30 Nov 1704, St. Philip, Barbados
ST. JOHN (or SAINTJOHN), Charles
b. abt. 1700
m. Isabella Clarke, 12 Oct 1721, St. Philip, Barbados
WILKINSON , John (parents may have been John, d. 1652 in Barbados, and Elizabeth)
b. chr. 13 Nov 1645, Christ Church, Barbados
m. Grace Betteny, before 1677
http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/rw/localities.caribbean.barbados.general/596
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Hi
The LDS site also has an Ancestral File for Charlotte Muir, showing her maternal grandparents as
James KING born 1807 St Michaels, Barbados
Mary Elizabeth WILKINSON born 1811 St Michaels, Barbados
cheers
Paul
Manchester Rambler
Re: June 2005 RootsChat Challenge
« Reply #249 on: Today at 21:53:57 »
~~~~~~~~
Same thing for Charlotte's maternal grandfather, James William King, son of James Martin King and Margaret Leslie Forte. He and his siblings were all christened in Barbados as follows:
Margaret Elizabeth King, chr. 24 Nov 1793
Samuel Forte King, chr. 24 Nov 1793
James William King, chr. 28 May 1798
Robert King, chr. 28 May 1798
Ann Sedwick King, chr. 2 Feb 1809
Nathaniel Forte King, chr. 2 Feb 1809
Looks like the LDS has 2 different dobs for James King born in Barbados, one c1798 and the other in 1807. Do we have an age for James from any other source?
-
I'm thinking we might have several connections here.
what do you guys think?? ;D
KING, James Sedgwick
b. abt 1740
m. Jahann Despray, abt 1765, St. Michael, Barbados
Well, Burrow, what about what MR found...
Same thing for Charlotte's maternal grandfather, James William King, son of James Martin King and Margaret Leslie Forte. He and his siblings were all christened in Barbados as follows:
Ann Sedwick King, chr. 2 Feb 1809
I'm sure with all these repeating names that we have pmenty of connections. If Melinda doesn't reply, that will be the July Challenge - tracking her down to explain all of this!
These families are so complicated, its not surprising there is conflicting LDS information Allan. Its going to be a bu**er sorting it all out.
Rambler - this is supposed to be a fun, genealogical challenge and I'm afraid your summarising is turning into a full time career! :) Hope its not proving too stressful!
Paul
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;D Was just off to my bed when saw that
GenesR have article on Caribbean Genealogy.
Seems a few site links. Must go. Lesanne.
Happy Hunting. ;D
-
The 1807 dob for James King was an estimate (user-submitted), and the 1798 one is an extracted record.
HOWEVER! I've just found another extracted christening record for a James William King: 21 MAR 1797, and this time the parents are given as James Sidgwick King and Jaham Despray. A user-submitted record for the same person gives the dob as 12 Aug 1795.
Given that one of James' children is Ann Sedgwick King, perhaps the Ancestral file was wrong? Opinions please!
Rambler
You beat me to the post, Paul!
-
I'm possibly going more than slightly mad trying to keep up with all developments, but ever since we discovered the Caribbean connection, I've had a stupid song stuck in my head. I doubt it will mean anything to the non-Brits out there, but who remembers a bunch of one-hit wonders called Typically Tropical and their summer single "Whoa! I'm going to Barbados!"?
Rambler
"Fly me on Coconut Airways/Fly me high, Barbados sky!"
-
Possible for another son of Charlotte Muir and Allan Robertson (seems we've almost forgotten about Allan with all this excitement in the Carribean :) )
England & Wales Civil Registration Index, Deaths:
William Muir Robertson Aug 1992 Stafford
Born 17th October 1904
Any ideas on how we can prove/disprove a link other than shelling out 7 quid :P ? (and that'd be after we'd found the birth reference - it's not on FreeBMD :( )
-
I've been in conference about Barbados with LiverpoolAnnie on another thread/P and she posted the link to this thread, she suggested I copy my last message here, so I am!
There's been a suggestion that Allan's dark hair/eyes and Barbadian ancestry might mean he has black ancestry... I just wanted to give the reasons why I doubt this:
firstly, although mixed race marriages amongst working classes in Liverpool were commonplace, they were less frequent elsewhere (it was more a case of necessity in Liverpool which led to acceptance because it was commonplace, given that we had lots of black men (sailors), but few black women, except for the later offspring of these mixed couples, who turned up a generation after the abolition of slavery)
Secondly, though a black Charlotte could've married a white man (though less socially accepted as black men with white women... the scarcity of black women for the black sailors meant choosing white women was far less shocking than the other way around).. she wasn't likely to have married a Captain.... working class mixed marriages were common and accepted, but this wasn't the case with middle & upper classes, who still liked to stick with their own.
Thirdly, the Kings are cited back to 1799/1807, and each generation is baptising children AND quotes both parents. Slave baptisms were extremely rare, and there were few free slaves... and those free slaves who were baptising children almost never cited a father on the records, as marriage amongst former slaves was the exception rather than the rule. Sometimes a child would be born with the mother's surname, and the couple may marry as an afterthought, after which time the child would adopt its father's name... but most black baptisms in Barbados were illegitimate (though I think the parents usually lived together, but the church approached record-keeping as they did in Britain, and only stated mother's name in such cases).
King does crop up as a slave name, but I think it highly likely that Charlotte was a descendant of the plantation owner who gave his name to these slaves.
Impy
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There's been a suggestion that Allan's dark hair/eyes and Barbadian ancestry might mean he has black ancestry... I just wanted to give the reasons why I doubt this:
Okey dokey & thanks Impy
I now have the next 5 hours to find some new info while you guys snore. ;D
sleep tight everyone :)
BD
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Girlfriend !
That is so cool - I have to admit - it didn't cross my mind that they might be black but why not ???????
To be honest - I just like to have a picture in my mind so I can make up stories - thats why I was so disappointed when one of the guys was only 5"3.......... I imagined tall dark and handsome...... ::) ::)
Annie
-
I now have the next 5 hours to find some new info while you guys snore. ;D
sleep tight everyone :)
BD
Did anyone say we're off to bed? :)
Its Friday, after all - no work tomorrow.
Leafing through a history of Barbados in a bookshop today (as you do) it became obvious why most of the white plantation owners and traders wouldn't need to think about marrying a black slave. It seems to have been shockingly common that they had virtually free reign over female slaves. Their wives even appear to have accepted it as the norm that their husbands would have such 'dalliances' (which is perhaps too genteel a word to decribe what probably amounted to rape :'(). It seemed, from what I read, to have been all too commonplace.
Paul
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Yes, the pick of the younger female slaves was a "perk of the job"!!... the mixed race children who were born as a consequence were often given house jobs, a much easier life than the hard labour outdoors... though there are instances of these children being brought back to England and educated here.
Anyway, this is going off topic a bit I suppose, sorry to distract...
Annie, I meant that it's highly unlikely for Allan to have black ancestry... I think his Barbadian line is one of slave owners, rather than of slaves.
I don't know what you have against short men, though... I'm rather partial to the short dark & handsome type myself ;)
Impy
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I know Impy - I married one....!!
I just like to dream about the tall ones....... :P :P :P :P
Back to business..............
Liverpool Poll Book 1832
(no Robertson's only Robinson's)
ROBINSON,CHARLES,SAIL MAKER,MERSEY STREET,LIVERPOOL,S & D,
ROBINSON,DANIEL,SAIL MAKER,CLARE STREET,LIVERPOOL,S & D,BGS/FMN
ROBINSON,DAVID,SAIL MAKER,MARLBOROUGH STREET,LIVERPOOL,S & D,BGS/FMN
ROBINSON,GEORGE,COTTON BROKER,GOREE,GOREE,E & T,L'POOL VOTE
ROBINSON,JOHN,GENT,TARLETON STREET,LIVERPOOL,E & T,BGS/FMN
ROBINSON,JOSEPH,COTTON BROKER,MOSS STREET,WEST DERBY,E & T,
ROBINSON,RICHARD,GENT,GRAFTON STREET,TOXTETH PK.,E & T,
Is a Gent - a Gentleman or a Gent's outfitter?
Annie
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Charlotte Muirs GGG grandparents , maternal side ( I think...I'm so confused!)
William Forte b. circa 1740
son of Richard Forte b. 1707 Barados
Margaret Bissell b. Aug 4, 1712 St. Michaels Barbados
Richard Forte & Margaret Bissell m. Sep 23, 1732 in St. MichaelsIGI extracted source
m. Margaret Leslie b. circa 1745
on Dec 28, 1767 St. Thomas Barbados
verified this marriage date in IGI Extracted source[/color]
Children:
Samuel Forte b. Oct 30, 1768 St. Thomas Barbados
Margaret Leslie Forte b. May 9, 1773 St. Thomas Barbados
Elizabeth Forte b. Sep 8, 1776 St. Thomas Barbados
also son William c. Sept 17, 1775 St. James Barbados found in IGI; may well be more children for this William and Margaret
Source is user submitted info on Rootsweb Trees
451 Fortes in Barbados in IGI with every imagineable name combination--- AHHHH! Will be happy to go back after Summary Update to see what specific Holes we need to fill.
kathy
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Did any of our guys die during this time ? if they did - this is possibly why... !
Cholera Outbreak (1854)
Several cholera outbreaks were recorded in Barbados’ history but the one of 1854 was indeed the most serious and caused the lives of more than 15,000 people in just a few months.
Annie
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Annie... I've always liked my men within easy reach!!... your gent would be a gentleman I think.... a posh bloke of independent means!
LOL, I'm just sitting here throwing easy snippets in cos I've lost track of who's who! (and I started to get cross-eyed after page 13).
Have we established that no-one was in Liverpool in the 18thC? cos I have a copy of the 1766 directory for Liverpool... is there anyone I can look for in there?
-
Robinsons in 1766:
Benjamin, Sailmaker, Mersey St
John, Merchant, North East Side South Dock
John, Anchorsmith, East Side Old Graving Dock
John, Sailmaker, Paradise St
Michael, Attorney-at-law, Dale St
Richard, Broker, Hackin's Hey
Thomas, Physician, Chapel St
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Have I missed something????
Why are we researching Robinson???
Because of the link to sails and such???
kathy
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Kathy
Because of spellings - on census - look for Robertson Robinson etc.
It's OK Girl - just keep with the Muirs don't worry ::) ::) ::)
I found Claude under Robinson :-\
Annie
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Annie,
OKEY DOKEY!
I've found my little niche and I'm staying there! Until I wear out, that is.
kathy
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Charlotte Muir
Maternal GM: Mary Elizabeth Wilkinson
dau of: Jonas Wilkinson b. 1766
Charlotte St. John b. 1784
m. Apr 18, 1801 St. Thomas Barbados
He was 35; she was 17
Jonas Wilkingson
son of: Light Wilkinson (no dates yet)
Elizabeth Hollingshed (no dates yet) Hollinge ?
m. Dec. 22, 1757 St. John, Barbados
Light Wilkinson
son of: Richard Wilkinson (no dated yet)
Constantinia Light (no dates yet)
m. no date yet
1 sibling found: Son, Richard Purkett Wilkinson christening Feb. 3, 1730
Then, Joseph Wilkinson m. Mary E. Purkett
Nov. 30, 1704 St. Phillip Bardados
Maybe Joseph is Richard's father??[/color]
All of above from IGI extracted sources.
kathy
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Playing with the W. Indian connection and the components of Charlotte's mother's name I searched for King.
I found on the 1881 census a Mary Barrow Atkinson of South Shields, Durham, home alone with 6 dependent children, a servant and a house guest named James Hall King whose place of birth was listed as (W.I.) Jamaica, occupation Ship Stewart.
Since Charlotte's sister's name was Mary Barrow Muir I was intrigued with the co-incidence so checked with Free BMD, where, for her marriage in 1867, and her birth as a Sanderson, in 1845 the Barrow is transcribed as Barron. Disappointed but persistent I tried it and found a Mary Sanderson, St. Michael's, Barbados christening 1689. I also tried the Jenkins connection in Barbados and found that they also had been at St. Michael's in the 1600's
-
A. F. KING Gender: Male Marriage: 09 SEP 1865 Banff, Banff, Scotland
Spouse: ELIZABETH LYALL
Marriage: 09 SEP 1865 Banff, Banff, Scotland
MARGARET KING Gender: Female Marriage: 14 NOV 1857 Banff, Banff,Scotland
Spouse: JOHN MOORE
Marriage: 14 NOV 1857 Banff, Banff, Scotland
ANDREW KING Gender: Male Marriage: 11 DEC 1863 Banff, Banff, Scotland
Spouse: ISABELLA JACK
Marriage: 11 DEC 1863 Banff, Banff, Scotland
ALEXANDER KING Gender: Male Marriage: 23 SEP 1861 Banff, Banff, Scotland
Spouse: ISABELLA CORMACK
Marriage: 23 SEP 1861 Banff, Banff, Scotland
Annie
-
Cotton brokers in Liverpool
http://www.lca.org.uk/History/HistoryMain/histMainFrame.html
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Cotton Brokers in Liverpool
Waterhouse & Co, cotton brokers
Liverpool, Lancashire
Sykes, Allen & Co, cotton brokers
Liverpool, Lancashire
-
Possible for another son of Charlotte Muir and Allan Robertson (seems we've almost forgotten about Allan with all this excitement in the Carribean :) )
England & Wales Civil Registration Index, Deaths:
William Muir Robertson Aug 1992 Stafford
Born 17th October 1904
Any ideas on how we can prove/disprove a link other than shelling out 7 quid :P ? (and that'd be after we'd found the birth reference - it's not on FreeBMD :( )
Looks like a very strong possibilty to me - if it was my own family, I'd probably order the cert, but for the purposes of the challenge.... We can leave it as supposition, or try looking for a newspaper obit, perhaps? If it's not on Free BMD (or Lancashire BMD -I checked), there's a possibility he was born abroad. (Although Free BMD coverage isn't total, of course.)
Rambler
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Have we established that no-one was in Liverpool in the 18thC? cos I have a copy of the 1766 directory for Liverpool... is there anyone I can look for in there?
Looking at the birthplaces of the Robertson brothers' children, it would seem that George came to Liverpool around 1856. John's children were all born in Bromley pre-1865, and his widow was in Liverpool in 1871. James' children were born Peckham/Camberwell pre-1877, and his widow was in Liverpool by 1881. We haven't established any earlier connection to Liverpool.
I agree that we need to keep an eye open for Robertson/Robinson confusion on censuses, but I think trade directories will almost certainly have the correct company name.
Kathy - Allan and Charlotte's known ancestors as of yesterday are posted on the SUMMARIES thread, and I'm about to start an update.
Rambler
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Hi,
I found this on the CORNELL/CORNWELL/CORNWALL Query Page. I have sent an e-mail to the person submitting this information and have given them the links to see what we are doing.
CORNELL, Rev. Thomas Vial, born about 1825 in England, m. Eliza Wilson Molison on 21 Sep. 1848 at St Dunstan, Stepney. She was the daughter of Alexander Strachan Molison of Morant Cottage, Blackheath Rd, Greenwich, Co. Kent, whose 1878 will appointed Cornell as his executor. Looking for anyone with knowledge of this Cornell line or especially the Molisons.
Hopefully they will join in.
Sue
I was wondering how Eliza Wilson Molison could have been born and married in 1848.....but I've now found the marriage on the freeBMD:
Cornell Thomas V
Molison Eliza Wilson W. Ham 4a 115 Dec 1874
Whoever entered them on the Cornell webiste must be as good at typing as me :) as Thomas seems to have been born in 1850ish rather than 1825 according to the 1881 census:
Lower House Fownhope, Herefordshire
Thomas V Cornell bn Wethersfield, essex
Eliza W Cornall bn Stepney
plus two servants
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Hi Rambler,
Could you put me in the direction of your summary.
Got a biiig wedding to do and I'm going cross-eyed trying to keep up,
in between tapes and wires.
Thanks. Lesanne.
-
Here's Rambler's last summary, Lessane
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.0.html
Paul
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I'm struggling with Charlotte's grandfather, James William King. We have 2 possible sets of parents for him:
James Martin King and Margaret Leslie Forte
OR
James Sedgwick King and Jaham Despray.
James William's children are
Margaret Elizabeth King
Samuel Forte King
James William King
Robert King
Ann Sedgwick King
Nathaniel Forte King
So which couple do we go for?
Rambler
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1891 to follow up:
RG12/2929 Toxteth Park Folio 56 Page 2
37 South Hill Road, Toxteth Park
George Robertson Head Wid 71 Ships Chandler Employer Middlesex London
Charles Moodie " Son S 35 " Employer " "
Augusta Jane " Sister in Law 57 " Stepney
Augusta " Neice 30 " Bow
Mary Douglas " " 26 " "
Eliza Goat Serv S 21 Servant Domestic Cheshire Birkenhead
and 1901
37 South Hill Road, Toxteth Park
George Robertson Head Widr 81 Ships Chandler and Sailmaker Employer London Limehouse
Charles W " Son S 45 Ship Chandler and Sailmaker Employer London Limehouse
Augusta " Niece S 40 Shop " " London Bromley
Mary D " Neice S 36 " "
Elizabeth Byrne Servant S 30 Cook Domestic Worker Lancashire Liverpool
Jane Palin Servant S 20 Housemaid Domestic Worker Cheshire Winsford
Well if anybody would have inherited the business it would seem to have been Charles - he must have been made a partner at some stage as he is noted as "Employer" and not employed.
Of the John's and George's deaths in the Liverpool area it would be difficult to know if any were "our" ones as we haven't seen them since 1861 but also no sign of them in the censuses either. Of those listed in the Toxteth Park district none appear to be the right age. I hoped the middle name of "Wood" would have helped the search in BMD's. Wonder if they also went abroad?
Still think my David might be the one who returned to London.
This might have been found before:
Death: Augusta Jane Robertson June qtr 1897 Toxteth Park 8b 180
No death entries found for George, Charles, Augusta or Mary Douglas Robertson after 1901.
They have been at South Hill Road for quite a while, I wonder if it's still there?
Found their place of business:
Kelly's Directory of Liverpool & Birkenhead 1894 (Part 1 Liverpool)
Robertson George & Sons, Sail Makers, 31 Strand Street
Robertson Charles Moodie, Sail Maker, see Robertson George & Sons. Res. 37 South Hill Road.
Still at 31 Strand Street in 1900. - Making further enquiries of friends who may have later Trade Directories.
If I get time this afternoon I'll take a quick trip into town and see if either of these places are still standing - I have my doubts about the Strand Street, think its under a fitness centre.
Mary
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Not sure whether anyone has found this yet as I've only just come across the challenge. Allan and Charlotte's son Douglas died in 1842 according to IGI. Confirmed from CWGC:
Commander (E) DOUGLAS MUIR ROBERTSON
H.M.S. Curacoa, Royal Naval Reserve
who died
on 02 October 1942
Husband of D.G.Robertson.
Remembered with honour
CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL
Jo :)
-
Mary - Great job, we now have George's family well-organised. I'm sure you're right about David, and as Charles has apparently gone into the family firm, the odds are that older brother George died.
It also confirms Charles' middle name as Moodie - it's transcribed as Wood, Word, Mood and Moddie in different places!
Rambler
-
Another possible child for Allan and Charlotte:
Births Sep 1909
ROBERTSON Richard Dale Toxteth Park 8b 219
Rambler
-
On consulting an 'Old Map' site I see that Rotherhithe appears to be slightly downstream from Camberwell and note living there---1881 census
Thomas J. Robertson Head M Male 53 West Indies Shipwright
Jessie Robertson Wife M Female 43 Holburn Middlesex
Thomas J. Robertson Son 22 Borough, Surrey Timber Merchant Clerk
Jessie R.A. Robertson Dau 19 Rotherhithe Surrey Teacher
Isobel E. Robertson Dau 17 Rotherhithe Surrey Scholar
Herbert C. Robertson Son 4 Rotherhithe Surrey
As a candidate for Alan's Paternal Grandmother can I interest anyone in
Daniel Wane 65 Penrith ,Cumberland Physician
Maria W. Wane Wife 50 Scotland
Alene H. Wane Dau 25 London
Henriette B. Robertson 83 Mother in Law West Indies
Living 20 Grafton St. London.
Reading the summary I note that Allan Robertson on the later U.S. census has children born prior to the death of the first wife.The children are listed as Robertson. He could have adopted them but they would have been partly grown and is it probable that they would have given up their prior family name?
Elizabeth
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You're the Scots expert tell us where we should be looking.........!
Annie ::)
I'm 4 pages behind at the mo so sorry if we've well passed this point. BUT we should be looking in London/Middlesex to find John, James, George's parents that's where they were born. With the Molisons you can conjecture as it is a localised name but Robertson is too common.
Anyway as a high note to by drowning pessimism here's a taster from a reply I got from a Molison Researcher related to this family.
9 Royal houses, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, a wonderful fully verified tour de force of wonderful colourful history. The Molisons are there, truly, the Davidsons, the Oliversons, Forsyths. Oh gosh, what a family. All verified by the College of Arms.
Pam
;D
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Not sure whether anyone has found this yet as I've only just come across the challenge. Allan and Charlotte's son Douglas died in 1842 according to IGI. Confirmed from CWGC:
Commander (E) DOUGLAS MUIR ROBERTSON
H.M.S. Curacoa, Royal Naval Reserve
who died
on 02 October 1942
Husband of D.G.Robertson.
Remembered with honour
CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL
Jo :)
Yawwwwning Good morning all - computer went on the fritz last night so I couldnt do anything to help. :(
Info about Douglas was posted way back on page 2 or 3 of this thread.
BD
-
Another snippet from the mail I received (still hoping you'll join ;D )
It said ...
You are looking at the Dunbar line, the greatest fleet ever assembled, more ships than the Royal Navy, and owned the most ships the RN deployed in the Crimean War.
Somebody has mentioned this on the thread already apparently and I can't remember where. This quote is in response to say we had hit the nail on that company.
Pam
;D
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Re: Allan Robertson in 1930 US Census in Essex, NJ as "Superintendent in Cotton Mill"
Noting that census often understates or reduces to the lowest common denominator the profession, this characterization of his profession is a bit under-achieving for what we are seeing in this family.
Do you think the Crash of 1929/Depression wiped him out?
Superintendent could imply a management position but it also could imply a labor position.
Kathy
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Lots of mentions in The Times in the 1840-50-60 of Molison Notice to Shippers.
This one might be interesting as it indicates the company name which appears frequently ...
For Bombay direct the splendid fast sailing ship Earl Grey. A 1,750 tons, belonging to D. Dunbar and Sons of Limehouse. Alexander S Molison Commander loading at the East India Docks. Has very superior accommodation for passengers and will carry an experienced surgeon. For freight or passage contact Messrs R. Eglington and Co, Old Jewry Chambers or Henry Thompson and Co, 2 Cowpers Court, Cornhill.
The Times April 22, 1844
Jonathan
Also found this on the net ...
Duncan Dunbar - Aberdeen-built ships. Duncan Dunbar's line of Indiamen came
into the Australian trading in the 1830's with the ships Bussorah Merchant
and China (530 tons,) and the barques Duchess of Northumberland (541 tons),
EARL GREY (571 TONS), and Morayshire (316 tons).
Can look for more stuff in The Times if you like ...
Jonathan
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Married
On the 18th inst. at the Greyfriars Elgin ..... James Molison Esq Commander of the ship Collingwood to Isabella Anne elder daughter of Osbert Forsyth Esq late of Clapham Rise.
The Times 23 July 1849
Jonathan
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Hi Guy's,
Did we get any interest back from the John Robertson Ltd, Timber Company.
Sent a fax, from the shop, outlining our challenge.
:D Lesanne. :D
-
Looking at Pallots baptism index for George Robertson born about 1820 with possible father George (assuming that the George Robertson Ships Chandler listed in 1829 is connected to Allan's uncle George who was ships Chandler in 1861):
1817 St Annes Soho, George Robertson baptised, parents George and Mary. IGI gives date as 27 Apr. 1817
George and Mary also had:
John chr. 24 Jan 1819
Mary ann Chr 31 March 1822
Elizabeth Jane chr 5 Feb 1830
William chr. 8 Jan 1832
All at St Annes.
There was a George Robertson baptised 1820, also at st Annes Soho, parents James and Ann. IGI gives the chr. date as 13 March 1820. They also chr. James william at st Annes 16 July 1821.
Jo :)
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I think I may have found another Robertson..ship chandler...
using the 1837 online search for robertson and ship chandler there was George and:
Robertson Colin D aged about 37 reg. district West Derby Ship chandler
I don't have access to the image, but I think this could be:
Rg9/2724 Lancashire
Colin D Robertson bn 1830 XX, Middlesex head
Elizabeth J Robertson b 1827 Middlesex wife
Hannah M Robertson b.1855, Middlesex daughter
George Robertson b. 1850 " son
Henry D Robertson b. 1855 " son
Could someone have a look at the image maybe?
I was wondering if it might be a possible brother to George/James/John?
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Emily here's the full record ...
1861
2 Richmond Terr, Darby? Road, Linacre, Lancs (reg dist: West Derby)
Colin D Robertson 37 London, Middlesex, England Head
Elizabeth J Robertson 37 London, Middlesex, England Wife
George Robertson 11 London, Middlesex, England Son
Hannah M Robertson 6 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
Henry D Robertson 4 London, Middlesex, England Son
Emma Dale 28 London, Middlesex, England Sister-in-law
Jane Cope abt 1837 St Helens, Lancashire, England Servant
Caroline S Pearson abt 1835 Rochester, Kent, England Servant
Colin is a Ship Chandler
RG9/2724
Folio: 19
Page: 35
Jonathan
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Another possible child for Allan and Charlotte:
Births Sep 1909
ROBERTSON Richard Dale Toxteth Park 8b 219
Rambler
I just looked up the Colin Robertson family in 1881, and Colin appears to be dead but living in marylebone, London with
Elizabeth (head) widow
Henry D (son)
George (son)
is an Emma Dale (sister)....I wonder if this has a connection to Robertson born 1909 in Toxteth?
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Thanks Jonathon for looking up Colin.....I wonder if he is a missing brother?
As the gap between George and James and John suggests to me that there ought to be some other Robertsons around somewhere..
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Whoever Colin Douglas Robertson may be....
He married an Elizabeth Jane Dale 30 Sep 1848 St Thomas, Stepney
(extracted IGI)
parents weren't listed unfortunately...
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"Colin appears to be dead but living in marylebone" ;D ;D
Emily, that's a possibility, but how to verify it though? Has anyone asked for/done a 1851 lookup?
The Stepney marriage looks encouraging.
J :)
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"Colin appears to be dead but living in marylebone" ;D ;D
Emily, that's a possibility, but how to verify it though? Has anyone asked for/done a 1851 lookup?
The Stepney marriage looks encouraging.
J :)
You think it's possible that there are dead people living in Marylebone? ;D ;D
I must have been living away from Britain too long.....
I don't know that anyone has looked the Robertsons up in 1851 or 1841....probably we'd need 1841 if we want to find George (and maybe Colin) living with mum and dad.
I think there's only an incomplete surname index for London 1851?
Emily
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I'm very interested in Colin - he sounds as if he ought to belong to "our" Robertson family. He fits the pattern: ships chandler, moves from London to Liverpool late 1850's... His birth might also be a little easier to find - not quite as many Colins as Georges and Jameses! Married to a Dale, too - we keep falling over the same families.
That means Richard Dale Robertson (1909) could also be from this line.
Jonathan - your info from the Times is great! Who can fit James Molison into the family? Surely he belongs....?
Will catch up later, but we're supposedly wallpapering the kitchen this weekend...
Rambler
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1881 Census Rock House, Charlton Next Woolwick, Kent
@ schools w/Governess, other female students, servants
Charlotte E. Robertson b. 1866 Birth @ Sea
Laura Margaret Robertson b. 1865 Madras ( assuming India)
kathy
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Are we doing Dunbar's too ???
Found a list of Dunbar Ships
http://www.dunbarfamilysociety.org.uk/DATA/Duncan_Dunbar/duncan_dunbar.html
And births marriages and deaths if anybody is interested....... :P
http://www.dunbarfamilysociety.org.uk/DATA/data.html
Annie
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Well I had a disappointing trip to the south end of Liverpool. As my ex-hubby used to live in High Park Street I had an idea that there wasn't going to be anything to find there and I was right - all demolished, further up the street new houses had been built but where number 26 was is clear ground, no doubt ready for rebuilding soon.
Yuck I found 37 South Hill Road and wish I hadn't. You can see from the houses in the side street what kind they would have been but 37 seems to have been a corner house and of recent years would have been a shop, but no longer.
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Emily, yes the 1851 only has a partial surname index, but there are a few people with the surname indexes for St George in the East and other close areas - that should cover them if we are looking for anyone in the Stepney area.
Alternatively, we need an 1861 address to request a specific lookup for 1851.
1841 you definitely need an address.
I think it might be worth posting for an 1851 lookup request for .... Molinson and Robertson families if we expect them to be in St Geo in the East or close by. What would the families look like in 1851? Sorry I'm losing my mind now, need a cuppa :)
What do you think?
J
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Hi Guy's,
Did we get any interest back from the John Robertson Ltd, Timber Company.
Sent a fax, from the shop, outlining our challenge.
:D Lesanne. :D
I've got nothing back yet but it IS the weekend so I think we should wait till Monday before we go chasing him up.
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Are we doing Dunbar's too ???
Found a list of Dunbar Ships
http://www.dunbarfamilysociety.org.uk/DATA/Duncan_Dunbar/duncan_dunbar.html
And births marriages and deaths if anybody is interested....... :P
http://www.dunbarfamilysociety.org.uk/DATA/data.html
Annie
Fantastic, notice all the ships are there Collingwood, Earl Grey, Edwin Fox and the Molisons are mentioned!
J
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Uncle George's business address of 31 Strand Street is, as I thought no longer there, along that stretch of road is a Fitness Club and the Police Station. But the site would have been opposite the Albert Dock so in exactly the right place for a ships chandlers and sailmakers.
Just to cheer us up I took a picture of the likely pub where George and Charles probably would have gone for a pint after work, the Baltic Fleet one of the oldest and most well known around the Liverpool dock area.
A friend on another Liverpool messageboard has kindly done us a look up in Trade Directories and it seems that, maybe after George died, Charles either moved or took additional premises.
The company is still going in 1911, there is a reference to a Charles M. Robertson, Ships Chandler (Geo. R. & sons) 57 Peel St. S.
1939, There is no mention of Charles Robertson, or the business
Wish I had known about this address before I took my trip, Peel Street is right opposite the top end of South Hill Road. I don't know the area at all so I'm not able to say whether there are any properties still there.
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Thinking about a look up in 1851 the only two we can say with a certainty are James 1843 and George 1820 but with such an age difference, even George may have flown the coop by then as his eldest child that we know of was born 1852.
A useful look up might be George's family to see if any parents/siblings were with him. We have
George Robertson 1820 born Wapping
Mary Walker Robertson 1822 born Port of Glasgow
and in 1861 there was a visitor David Gilkison born 1820 Port of Glasgow - wonder if he could be related?
As George and Mary would have been 31/29 it could be that they had older children. I can't remember if we have a marriage date for them?
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Mary
Thanks so much for the pictures - I love it when we can imagine "our" people being there..... I just remembered a Uncle of mine used to work for a ships chandlers down by the Albert Dock I've just sent an email to my cousin to find out where - I know I have it here somewhere - but" Disorganized Annie "can't find it..... :P
Will post later
Annie
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Mary, Annie beat me to this post -- I second the thanks for the pictures -- really is great -- even if it was a disappointment. Too bad it wasn't a Starbucks!
kathy
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I found a mention of a ship disaster - the Cospatrick - it was a ship that was previously owned by Duncan Dunbar
http://www.theshipslist.com/accounts/cospatrick.html
Dunno if its useful or not. :)
The rest of the site might turn up something. But I have to go outside - the 3 year old is demanding to go outside and be entertained. :(
BD
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In 1841 the George Robertson Ship chandlers appears to be in St Ann's place, Limehouse.....so it might be worth us looking in that area for George at least.
The family make-up then would hopefully be:
George (senior) bn c.1800? ship chandler
Mrs Robertson
George bn 1820 Shipchandler?
Colin?? bn 1823.
If we could find a trade directory for 1851 it might be good as ship chandlers should be listed..
The pictures are great Mary...at least the weather looks better than here (it rained all day)
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More stuff on Duncan Dunbar ships
The wreck of the Dunbar, with the loss of 121 passengers and crew, is one of Australia’s worst maritime disasters in peacetime. This Archives in Brief is based on the online display of the Dunbar.
Background
On the night of Thursday 20 August 1857, the clipper Dunbar approached the heads of Sydney Harbour after a voyage of 81 days from England. Launched in 1853, the vessel was owned by Duncan Dunbar, and was the sister ship of the Phoebe Dunbar, the Dunbar Castle and the Duncan Dunbar. It was under the command of Captain Green and was on its second voyage to Sydney. Despite the treacherous weather conditions on the night, Captain Green and his crew attempted to enter Sydney Harbour that evening, rather than wait until morning.
The Dunbar was driven into the reef at the foot of South Head and began to break up immediately. In the hours that followed, all but one of the passengers and crew perished. The sole survivor, able seaman James Johnson clung to a ledge on the cliff face until he was rescued on the morning of 22 August, some 36 hours after the Dunbar ran aground.
When news of the wreck reached Sydney the following day, it immediately captured the attention of the public. In the days following, the media provided extensive coverage of the search for survivors and victims, and the progress of the inquest was chronicled daily. Residents were drawn to the scene for the morbid task of identifying friends, relatives and business associates. Still only a relatively small town, Sydney was staggered by the enormity and proximity of the tragedy.
A mass funeral for those who died and who, in most cases, could not be identified was held on 24 September. The interments took place at St. Stephen's Cemetery, Camperdown where there is still a monument to the victims.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/publications/aibs/067/page01.htm#Background
Gotta go dont wanna go but hafta go - can you tell I'm addicted to the challange & to genealogy, history & research? ;D
BD
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Whoa - this google search for duncan dunbar is great.
Heres a picture of the warehouse
http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/search/reference.asp?index=61&main_query=whar&theme=&period=&county=&district=&place_name=&imageUID=17328
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Why does my heart go Boom Boom when I see pictures of ships and docks ???
Must have been a sailor in a past life ............
Annie
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Emily, although it's a bit vague since it's a bit of a common name we may as well have a go with the Robertsons as you outline for an 1851 Lookup for St George in the East/Stepney ;)
Also, the Molison family, since it's an unusual name it might be worth asking for those in 1851 as well since Mary was b. 1844 in Limehouse. As it's uncommon might be a bit cheeky but could ask for any Molison/Mollison families in 1851 St George in the East/Stepney I think this may cover Limehouse if we're lucky.
No point in thinking about '41 before we do this bit though as deffo need an address.
I'll leave it in your capable hands while I go get food :)
J
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John should be in there somewhere in 1851, so add him into the Robertsons, Augusta would have been 17 so would he have been a little older?
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Yeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!
George Robertson Ship Chandler, 1 Providence Place, Limehouse
As in Post Office London Directory (small edition) 1852
Added after
Also thought interesting:
Robertson, Colin D Baker - See Hullah, Robertson & Co.
Also
Geo Robertson & Son Ship Chandlers, St. Ann's Pl. Limeho
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Great find Mary....
I just posted an 1851 lookup request on the London board for Robertsons...I'd better go and amend it..
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Theres a G Hullah on the War Memorial in Cheshire...
http://www.carlscam.com/wilmslow/refuge.htm
Annie
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Theres a G Hullah on the War Memorial in Cheshire...
http://www.carlscam.com/wilmslow/refuge.htm
Annie
Sorry another message was posted as I was trying to post........... :P :P
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Sorry Emily, amend again, see previous post
Annie, I have no idea what the "Hullah" means, I can't find an entry.
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I assumed it was a partner or something - :P
Thought maybe useful later on- you never know...........
Annie
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Hmmmmmmmm the Hullah may have nothing to do with it but here's what I'm finding
Hodgson James, biscuit baker, see Hullah, Robertson & Co.
Hullah, Robertson & Hodgson, Biscuit Bakers & Importers of Irish provisions, Jamaica coffee house, and 97 Wapping
Jamaica? reminiscent of Barbados? and imports of coffee?
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Mary
See - this is why I have such a hard time with mine - I can't stay focused - I keep going off on tangents - just in case......... :P :P LOL
Annie
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You and me both, while searching for those addresses in Toxteth I very nearly drove into the Cains Brewery site - see my list of names - but somebody called Nall Cain left Liverpool once upon a time and went to Welwyn ...... The 3rd Baron Brocket, Sir Charles Ronald George Nall-Cain Bt (as in I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here) of Brocket Hall in Welwyn ......... where is Welwyn? but of course its only half a mile from Codicote where my Cains come from, spitting distance really! but can I get a connection? huh! :P
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Just on the off chance of any parents living with the family, can anybody tell me whether we have found John and Augusta J in 1871? the Robinsons in '61 do sound like them but has this been followed through?
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Quote from Jonathan
1861 (might be a red herring) but ... (says Robinson on the page)
10 Mornington Road, Bromley, Middx (Poplar)
John Robinson 26 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Head
Jane Robinson 27 Stepney, Middlesex, England Wife
Geo Anglis?? Robinson 1 Bromley, Middlesex, England Son
Augusta Robinson 2 Bromley, Middlesex, England Daughter
Mary Marshal Robinson 17 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Sister-in-law
Eliza Taylor 21 Hertford, Hertfordshire, England Servant
Jane Buster 21 Stepney, Middlesex, England Servant
John is a Sail Maker and Ships Chandler.
Mary Marshal Robinson it states is Single
RG9/302
Folio: 194
Page: 17
The Augusta actually reads 2 months on the scan.
Guess what I've found and if you read the 1861 scan very closely you can make a Duglis of the Anglis?
Births
Robertson, George Douglas 1859 September Poplar London Middlesex 1c 568?
and look at this!!! they have left him behind at school
1871 RG10/571 Poplar Bow Folio 76 Page 46
7 Mornington Road, Bromley Saint Leonard, Tower Hamlets
Joseph G Bailey Head M 48 Accountant So Indies, Travaneaie
Jane L Wife M 49 Schoolmistress Heversham, Westmorland, England
Frances M daug Unm 26 Teacher Lancashire Preston
Elizth JT " Unm 24 " " "
John JT Son 12 Scholar Middlesex Bromley
Margaret J Bailey daug 9 Scholar " "
Rachel Hughes Boarder 16 " Sierra Leone Africa Bl (but the transcriber reads it as Abram, Surrey)
Charlotte Bennett " 9 " Middlesex Ratcliffe
Katherine M Bildenbecke " 7 " " Pentonville
Geo D Robertson " 11 " " Bromley
Herbert W Lukin " 10 " Wells Ogbourne
Elizth Barry Servant Unm 24 Genl Serv Domestic Middlesex Bromley
I did just check number 10 to see, but there is a family of Oakleys, unfortunate daughter with the name Annie :P :P ;D ;D
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Mary
What does Anglis mean ? is that a Scots word for English - maybe Latin thinking of the times....
About the Annie Oakley part - did you mean she was an "Unfortunate " or unfortunately named Annie ??? ??? ???
Maybe it was the real one - where was her place of birth ??? I'm just kidding.. ::) ::) ::)
Annie
I was just wondering if it was the same school as Claude but no.... !!
1881
35 Gateford Road, Worksop, Nottinghamshire, England
Claude Robertson 13 London Camberwell, London, Middlesex, Boarder, School Boy
::) ::)
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"Anglis" is just what Jonathan made of the middle name but to me it reads "Duglis" which goes very well with the birth I found. ;)
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Quote from Jonathan
1861 (might be a red herring) but ... (says Robinson on the page)
10 Mornington Road, Bromley, Middx (Poplar)
John Robinson 26 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Head
Jane Robinson 27 Stepney, Middlesex, England Wife
Geo Anglis?? Robinson 1 Bromley, Middlesex, England Son
Augusta Robinson 2 Bromley, Middlesex, England Daughter
Mary Marshal Robinson 17 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Sister-in-law
Eliza Taylor 21 Hertford, Hertfordshire, England Servant
Jane Buster 21 Stepney, Middlesex, England Servant
John is a Sail Maker and Ships Chandler.
Mary Marshal Robinson it states is Single
RG9/302
Folio: 194
Page: 17
The Augusta actually reads 2 months on the scan.
Guess what I've found and if you read the 1861 scan very closely you can make a Duglis of the Anglis?
I agree Mary, it looks like it could be Douglas. Moreover, John 'Robinson' actually looks like Robertson onthe scan, although all the others are enumerated (wrongly?) as Robinson.
cheers
Paul
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Excuse me Paul - but where have you been ???
weren't you going to be up all night 'cos it was Friday ???
Annie
PS is Little Meols - Southport?
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Thought I would let others give their opinion - Jonathan must have copied from what the transcriber thought. Yes Paul, I thought it looked like Robertson too.
The Baileys in 1861 don't appear to have a school then, have you seen the daughter's occupation? "Nothing" - seems like teenagers over the years haven't changed much ;D
Annie - just saw your reply to Paul, North Meols is part of Southport, but Little Meols seems to have changed and become part of Hoylake between one census and another - 1861 - 1871 I think it was. There is also a place on the Wirral still called Meols.
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How did I suddenly become a Senior? It must be all these Robertson postings!
This does NOT get the housework done!
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Forgive me if this has been talked about before but I just found this....
1881
Name Allen P. ROBERTSON
Relationship Visitor
Condition U
Gender M
Age 39
Occupation Mariner
Birthplace Dingwall, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland
Address 23 Woodstock Road, London, Middlesex, England
Annie
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Knowing how Robinson and Robertson can get mixed up with enumerators, could George Robertson senior have moved from ships chandler to be dealing in coal by 1861:
4 Grove Place Hackney
George Robinson 74 coal merchant b. Durham Bishop Wearmouth
Eliza wife 62 b Pembroke Milford Haven
Louisa dau. 35 b Middlesex Camden Town
Mary dau. 23 b Essex Woodford
James son 18 b Middlesex Homerton clerk and stock broker
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That's getting up closer to Scotland all the time!
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just found the birth registration details of a James Robinson in 1843 Hackney district, so don't think the James Robinson in 1861 is our James Robertson.
Jo
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Blimey look what I just found...... :P
1881
1. Name Mary M. ROBERTSON
Relationship Head
Condition W
Gender F
Age 60
Occupation Living On Income Investment In Shipping
Birthplace Canada
Address 26 Sussex Rd, North Meols, Lancashire, England
2. Name Eleanor ROBERTSON
Relationship Daur
Condition U
Gender F
Age 23
Occupation Annuitant
Birthplace Canada
Address 26 Sussex Rd, North Meols, Lancashire, England
3. Name Elizabeth M. STYNOUT
Relationship Neice
Condition U
Gender F
Age 19
Occupation Annuitant
Birthplace Canada
Address 26 Sussex Rd, North Meols, Lancashire, England
4. Name Daniel ROBERTSON
Relationship Son
Condition U
Gender M
Age 18
Occupation Student
Birthplace Canada
Address 26 Sussex Rd, North Meols, Lancashire, England
5. Name John B. ROBERTSON
Relationship Son
Condition U
Gender M
Age 16
Occupation Scholar
Birthplace Canada
Address 26 Sussex Rd, North Meols, Lancashire, England
6. Name Isabelle STOREY
Relationship Serv
Condition U
Gender F
Age 23
Occupation Cook
Birthplace Carlisle, Westmorland, England
Address 26 Sussex Rd, North Meols, Lancashire, England
7. Name Eleanor CROWTHER
Relationship Serv
Condition U
Gender F
Age 18
Occupation House Maid
Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Address 26 Sussex Rd, North Meols, Lancashire, England
Annie ::)
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No No No No No Noooooooooooooo Please don't tell me they moved the Wirral into Southport!!! and these are born Canada! I wonder how many countries we'll get to before we finish this? ;D ;D
Nice of them to tell us where she got her money from.
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Here's 1881 Surrey
1. Name James ROBERTSON
Relationship Head
Condition M
Gender M
Age 40
Occupation House Decorator
Birthplace Scotland
Address Woodland Rd 2 Rose Cott, Lambeth, Surrey, England
2. Name Martha ROBERTSON
Relationship Wife
Condition M
Gender F
Age 40
Occupation House Decorator Wife
Birthplace London Pimlico , London, Middlesex, England
Address Woodland Rd 2 Rose Cott, Lambeth, Surrey, England
3. Name William J. ROBERTSON
Relationship Son
Condition U
Gender M
Age 14
Occupation Scholar
Birthplace Croydon
Address Woodland Rd 2 Rose Cott, Lambeth, Surrey, England
4. Name Mary M. M. ROBERTSON
Relationship Dau
Condition U
Gender F
Age 12
Occupation Scholar
Birthplace Croydon
Address Woodland Rd 2 Rose Cott, Lambeth, Surrey, England
5. Name Helen S. ROBERTSON
Relationship Dau
Condition U
Gender F
Age 7
Occupation Scholar
Birthplace Croydon
Address Woodland Rd 2 Rose Cott, Lambeth, Surrey, England
Here's another James ::) ::) with a daughter Mary M
Annie
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I think everyone is just grasping at straws - with all this jumping onto every Robertson who looks right.
We really have to do this in a very methodical and correct manner. That means maybe getting one certificate. We are still looking for James/John/George's parents right?
And we do have another 25 days to go. There is NO Hurry - at least not right now. ;D
Burrow Digger
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Annie's just having fun, most things we have got have been linked up. I'm not sure I'd be in favour of a certificate but if we decide to, just which one would you propose to get? There could be any amount of James/John/George. Run some details past us here BD.
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grumble grumble waste of time and energy reading when its not related grumble grumble *muttering under my breath* ;D
Either a death certificate for one of them? Do we know any of their death dates? The death certificate might give a fathers name if it was late enough. I know 1939 didnt give parents names. But the early 1900s should.
Or we could ask for a lookup for the OPR since we have birth dates.
Bd
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Totally losing track here.....was Claud still missing in 1871 or has that one been solved??
Sorry if he was founf 10 pages back!! :-[
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BD I get the feeling you aren't in England. Death certificates don't give father's names here, at least the last one I have didn't and that was only 5 years ago, nor does one I have dated 1877. It's not necessarily a family member who registers the death either. Mostly fathers die before their children so I'm not sure that works.
We would need an exact reference to get a birth certificate from the GRO, unless we knew for certain at least one of the parents, if not both so they could use it as a criteria and if we asked for that sort of search it's a more expensive certificate. Or do we have exact dates for James/John/George? or maybe even Colin?
I think its the principle of getting a certificate that I'm not sure about, I thought the big challenge was to use all resources we possibly could but without getting a certificate? maybe I'm wrong on that, has one ever been used in the previous challenges?
I wouldn't be too sure that we have exhausted all avenues before a certificate is desparate. There are still two censuses which haven't been checked at all and gaps which I've been trying to find in the hopes that maybe a parent was living with the family and give us a clue that way.
grumble away to yourself but I still think Annie's having fun and if so its only her own time she's wasting :-*
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Uncle George Robertson married Mary Walker Gilkison on 18 July 1849 in Port Glasgow. David Gilkison was visiting them in 1861. he could have been in Glasgow working.
Jo
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;D Anybody found a link to sugary Robertsons Jam and the little badges.
Lesanne.
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BD my apologies, you are in England, but I still don't think we will get a father's name on a death certificate. Do ALL counties have OPR's?
JoT! great, you've confirmed what I wondered about earlier about that David Gilkison.
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Claude has been found - Colin Robertson is definitely interesting, but we're never going to be able to connect other Robertsons without finding George, James and John's father and mother(s).
Well done finding John's son George Douglas in 1871 - can we find him any later?
Annie - how are you suggesting the Canadian Mary M Robertson is linked to our family? Sorry if I've missed something - I'm trying to catch up on the thread while wallpaper glue thickens...
Back soon ;D
Rambler
Jo - great find! Where did you get that from?
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8) Hey Guy's. Been trawling this for Marion and James Robertson,
I'm sure I saw a Marion get married to James.
Anyway, they started the Marmalade and Jam factory in Scotland.
Before that he was in a thread mill.
So where does his cotton and sugar come from, I asked, and looked
for an importer from your Barbadas bits.
I expect it's in there somewhere. 8)
Lesanne.
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Uncle George's wife Mary Walker Gilkison chr. 3 July 1821 in Port Glasgow. Parents were David Gilkison and Elizabeth WOOD. Hence the Wood in George's children's names.
Mary's siblings:
Elizabeth Chr 24 Aug 1816
David chr 4 June 1819
David chr 22 Aug 1817
John Wood Gilkison chr. 19 Oct 1824
Margaret chr 3 Apr 1827
Isabella chr 16 Apr 1829
Janet chr 29 Nov 1822
all from the IGI taken from parish records.
Jo
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Lesanne
Find them bringing coffee in too please, for Colin's partner's Jamaica Coffee House
Go Jo!
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BD my apologies, you are in England, but I still don't think we will get a father's name on a death certificate. Do ALL counties have OPR's?
Um no I'm not in England, and have never been there in my life - although my ancestors do come from Devon & Somerset ;D
Ok so no certificates. Seems to me like death certificates in NZ have far more detail on them than death certs from England. Must be the colonies wanting to keep that last link with the home country. :)
And you're right - OPRS stop at 1837 - and most of our searching is after that date.
I just wish the GRO indexes gave a bit more info. How many of us have decided to not purchase a cert coz we're not absolutely sure that it is the right one.
BD
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OK Here's what I believe ....
We are following TWO families here - it just so happens that they are both involved with the sea...........::)
This is the family we are supposed to be following -
1. Name Mary M. ROBERTSON
Relationship Head
Condition W
Gender F
Age 37
Occupation Annuitant
Birthplace Levihouse, Middlesex, England
Address 26 High Park St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
This family is involved with Ship's Chandlers and Sail Making-
the other family is involved with Shipping (ownership and otherwise )
2. Name Mary M. ROBERTSON
Relationship Head
Condition W
Gender F
Age 60
Occupation Living On Income Investment In Shipping
Birthplace Canada
Address 26 Sussex Rd, North Meols, Lancashire, England
I hope now - you understand where I am coming from ! - I believe we are definitly mixing and matching here - hence my postings...
Annie
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Shame about those OPR's :'( I was hoping this was a new source of data. Another shame are the names John/James/George etc. being so common, without more info we'd never know if they were the right ones. Never mind, back to the drawing board.
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Annie, just don't confuse NORTH Meols with the LITTLE Meols where we found "our" family. I see where you are coming from, but you are going to about 20 miles away, with a large river in between too!
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OK Here's what I believe ....
We are following TWO families here - it just so happens that they are both involved with the sea...........::)
I hope now - you understand where I am coming from ! - I believe we are definitly mixing and matching here - hence my postings...
Annie
In that case Annie, I apologise for my muttering before :). What you said actually makes more sense to me.
BD
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I'm not talking about addresses
I'm talking about families and coincidences - with names etc.
I believe "our" family are regular people -
and the other family are pretty "well off " and we've been intertwining the two !
Annie
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Does that mean my John Muir, regular dock worker, is still in the frame,
down in Shadwell, near limehouse docks.
;D Lesanne.
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Still with the Gilkisons hoping for some clue to suggest where to look for our James', John's and George's father:
David Gilkison, George's brother in law in 1871:
David Gilkison head unmar. 61 West India merchant b. Port Glasgow
address - 2 Glenhuntley House Port Glasgow
Handy brother in law surely for a family of ships chandlers
Jo
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So anyway...what IS a ship chandler anyway? What do they do? ???
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Ship Chandler - An individual or company selling equipment and supplies for ships
A good page of descriptions of occupations for our Robertsons.
http://www.oocl.com/glossary/m_to_s.htm
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Anyway back to the Gilkisons:
Uncle George's wife Mary's father was David. Considering the occupation of her brother David in the 1871 census I think this is reference to her father's will (only one in Port Glasgow):
David Gilkison 19 Dec 1856 merchant and shipowner in Port Glasgow will was dealt withy by Paisley court.
No more details I'm afraid without paying £5!!!
Surely George would have had to be from a worthy family for David to agree to the marriage?
Jo
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I can undserstand the confusion with all these Robertsons and Robinsons flying about!
Imagine if you WERE tracing Mary M Robertson, and the only information you had was that she lived in Meols and was connected to ships...
What a co-incidence that there are two of them, living twenty miles apart!
Re certificates - I think that's a real no-no, and against the spirit of the Challenge.
Isn't it amazing that this thread has attracted over 3,300 views in around 4 days?
And 368 postings over 25 pages? :)
I think its time to pat yourselves on the back for what you've achieved in such a short time!
Keep up the good work!
Paul
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JoT
I don't know so much about the family, but it seems he had his own business anyway and back in London possibly in two premises. Also his business was connected with shipping, no telling at present how well off he was, but wealthy enough to be able to support not only his own family but also his in-laws later, he must have had a few bob.
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Do the "views" add up double when you have the thread open on two windows so as to check back gawd only knows how many pages for that little detail you just can't remember! :P
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Ship Chandler - An individual or company selling equipment and supplies for ships
A good page of descriptions of occupations for our Robertsons.
http://www.oocl.com/glossary/m_to_s.htm
Thank you :)
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And what about when you're trying to post a reply and 3 times you cant coz someone else posted and you get a notice that "maybe you might need to amend your post" in RED no less :)
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A few refs to the Gilkisons and ships before I try to find any link from the Gilkisons to our Robertsons other than the marriage of Uncle George and Mary:
Post nuptial contract of marriage in 1840!!!!
James Gilkison, Shipmaster, later residing at Irvine, spouse of Isobell Montgomerie. An inventory as part of the contract put to Ayr Sheriff Court 19 Feb 1840.
Richard Brown Gilkison, Shipmaster in Port Glasgow thereafter in London. Inventory and will presented to Edinburgh Sheriff Court 8 Sept. 1860.
Robert Gilkison, Shipowner Residing at Port Glasgow. Will presented to Paisley Sheriff Court 21 Feb 1860
Jo
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What would you think about this death? Bearing in mind "our" George's birth was 1859 do you agree there's too much discrepancy?
Especially since there is another George Douglas born 1871 in Wandsworth, Surrey.
Name: Robertson, George Douglas
Record Type: Deaths
Age at death: 27
Quarter: December
Year: 1897
District: Hoxne
County: Norfolk Suffolk
Volume: 4a
Page: 481
There's also one born in 1872 Birkenhead for that matter, Birkenhead is probably the registration district for Little Meols by the way! But this one appears to be living in Liscard in 1881, father an absent Mariner and mother Frances. Probably no connection to ours.
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Do the "views" add up double when you have the thread open on two windows so as to check back gawd only knows how many pages for that little detail you just can't remember! :P
How do you think I do the summaries? ??? ???
I've also had to enter everyone in my software to keep track...
Still up to my ears in wallpaper, but the kitchen's coming on nicely!
My impression is that our Robertson family is comfortably-off, rather than stinking rich - particularly George, who is probably the oldest brother. The Molisons are probably a bit richer, and I love the way the different maritime families intermarry - I agree the Gilkison-Robertson marriage could well have served everyone's business interests! 8)
Rambler
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Geez! you go away for a little nap 'cause you were up all nite playing "lets find the Robertsons" and all heck breaks loose..... 45! posts during my little snooze!
Anyway, I found this a while back but held it 'cause wasn't sure how or IF it fit but just take me out and shoot me if you don't like it..............
IGI 1881 Census Torrs Park No. 1 Kingsley Villas Ilfracombe, Devon
Anne W. Robertson 65 <1816> b. Horsham Sussex
Living from interest income and pension
Dau, Hannah E. Robertson 28 <1853> b. in Scotland
No profession given
G-son, Alan St. Jo. L. Robertson 5 <1876> b. in Scotland
Ellen Graydon 20 Servant b. Tavistock Devon
So did Hannah also marry Robertson or is G-son out of wedlock??
Alan St. John L ?? We have the St. John connection in Barbados. What is the L for -- Lyte??
So is this one the "regular" Robertsons or the wealthy, economically diversified dynasty Robertsons??
On IGI I tried to find take Gson Alan St. Jo. L. Robertson forward 20+years and find a possible marriage --- only one hit came up:
Our Allan's marrige to Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir on July 14, 1898! Interesting, huh?? --- or maybe I'm an idiot with the IGI.
kathy
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;D O.K. going straight in here. Horsham just up the A 24 from Worthing ( Broadwater).
Now, I know Something was said about Worthing, 'cause I live near here
and it's stuck.
So who posted info 'bout Worthing. ;D Lesanne.
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Lesanne
What are you talking about ? weren't you supposed to be WORKING at that wedding ??? LOL you just make me laugh so much...Thanks!!
Annie
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Just can't get away from the Gilkisons - too intriguing I'm afraid. Just for background info.:
Fairly certain that Uncle George Robertson's wife Mary Walker nee Gilkison is a niece of the William and John mentioned below. Elora is in Canada.
"Elora's name came from a more exotic and convoluted source. Captain (retired) William Gilkison founded the settlement in 1832. He was a cousin of John Galt whose namesake has since been changed to Cambridge. Gilkison's brother, also John, was also a captain. He had a ship called "The Ellora" which was named for the seventh and eighth century cave temples and sculptures at Ellora, 273 kilometres northeast of Bombay. William Gilkison named the village after his brother's ship."
In addition to that:
"It is believed that Robert (1791) Gilkison's brother William Gilkison (1777) was best friend to John Galt, and is mentioned in the book titled "The GALTS", a Canadian Odyssey, (part 1 and Part 2) by H B Timothy (1977), as being buried in an unmarked grave close to the tombstone of the great Mohawk indian Chief Joseph Brant ."
promise I'll get back to Robertson's now ;)
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I do not know how you lot do it.
I've got a headache just reading it all. never mind trying to do research.
(Not that I'm any good at it)
well done one and all
Wellie
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I'm going to get even more grumbly than Burrow now!
Annie, I think you are right there are definitely 2 families and with the rapid fire myriad of posts I can't seperate them easily in my head.
Could we calm down a tad and just try and divide all the Robertson (+ var) into the different families.
Obviously this is supposed to just be a bit of fun so certs is pushing the envelope a bit but they are necerssary for certainty in research. I reckon we can do without them if we use the census more effectively.
I think we need to work the 2 families out first before posting anymore "maybes". For example are the Molisons related to our Mary M or the other one?
If no one agrees then I'll retire gracefully punchdrunk with this challenge.
Just to cap my crumbliness a few posts will be of interest to the copyright mods if we aren't careful but references and proper transcriptions (inc ages & proffesions) should still be done.
Would it be easier to split the thread into the different families? That may actually be impossible while so many posts are hitting it.
Pam
;D
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Hi Pam (and everyone else)
I'm worried that in coming up with the original Challenge idea I have created a monster! :)
Obviously there are a few things we need to remember:
- The person 'hosting' the Challenge is, like all of us, working on their own tree too, and its a bit onerous to expect regular summaries given the wealth of detail we have pulled up in this case
- We can't expect Rootschat to host a whole lot of threads for one challenge (although I can see the attraction!)
- Lets not get grumbly - this has been and is a whole load of fun and, speaking personally, I've learnt a lot from watching how others have dug out details from places I would never have thought of looking - its been like a live tutorial at times! :)
- We could desperately do with an outsider who could adjudicate on the information we've pulled together to date. I'm stunned that given the number of non-Rootschatters who have been approached, up to now no one has joined us to say 'This person is in my tree'. :) Wonder if this thread is a bit intimidating given its length?
Maybe finding the elusive outsider is now the priority? ???
cheers
Paul
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I've found someone with Charlotte King b1833 Barbados in their tree on GenesReunited. Hope its not another Rootschatter who, like me, has piggybacked on GR to try to keep track of this thread by storing the Robeertson et al data there! Hope they'll be tempted to join us.
cheers
Paul
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Please Sir .....
Can I ask a question? How do you do that ? PM me if you can't say... ::) ::)
Annie
PS Wish it was MY Charlotte Maria King :'( :'(
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See we all learn on these challenges!!
I've just edited my postings .... so I don't get into trouble with copywrite
Annie
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BINGO!!! ;D
I got a reply from Melinda!!! Heres what she wrote -
I have a whole book about this family which my
grandfather's cousin wrote. If you are
interested, I can make a copy for you, although
it could be a little costly with postage. I have
one of only about 6-8 in existence. Our problem
is that the James Muir it goes back to says he is
from Orkney Islands and we can't determine which
one he is there. I do have some of the Barbados
lines quite a ways back. What you are doing is
such a great idea and I am really interested in
being part of it! Please let me know how I can
help (also, I am living near Salt Lake City now,
I don't have a lot of time but could possibley
look something up for you at the library). I
will look forward to hearing from you,
Melinda
So now what do I do?? ::)
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Oh BD that's great !!! good for you!!
Did you give her the thread so she could read through herself ( I assume she has a computer - don't laugh not everybody does....) and then just ask her to tell us what's right and what's wrong - if there is anything in particular she would like us to find out....... and just go from there........
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62599.0.html
Good hunting by you !!
Annie
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Thank you.
For starters Ann, ;D
She needs to know which one of 3 James Muir is her James Muir,
"wot moved from Orkney down to Yorkshire and married the Robinson lassie"
We can use the IGI and the Cursiter web site that has transcribed a huge number of OPRs from Orkney
http://www.cursiter.com/pages/indices.htm
And below is the starting point. Which I originally posted it back on page 14 of this thread.
I am looking for information on James Muir, who was born 16 Dec 1766 in Sanday, Orkney, Scotland and was christened a month later in London, England (14 Jan 1767). He was a sea captain (as were many of his descendents). He married Ann Robinson, of Whitby, Yorkshire, England. They had 3 children, all born in Whitby.
We now need to find James's parents. I have some knowledge of Orkney but not of Sanday specifically.
BD
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BD
I still think she should look through the thread herself and then go from there - you could be doing a lot of work that she already either has or knows... ::)
everybody is willing to do what needs to be done - as she's the first one to come forward - we'll just give her first dibs on what she wants - that sounds pretty fair doesn't it ?
Personally - I know nothing about Scotland and how to go about getting information - but there are quite a few people here who are very knowledgable!!
wait till tomorrow - give people a chance to look at your posting - and then we can get going - you know how fast it gets on here - it won't take long !!
So relax tonight and just let things follow their course tomorrow
Still think you did good!!
Annie
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Excellent news to wake up to BD! :) Well done!
Lets hope Melinda reads this thread (and the summary) and joins Rootschat and joins in this discussion. It might help us sort out the Wood from Muirs ... and the Robertsons .... and the Dunbars .... and the Kings etc etc etc :)
cheers
Paul
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Our Robertsons:
Allan (starting point) - b. 1872, Camberwell, Surrey.
Siblings: Claude (b. 1867, Peckham, Surrey) and Margaret (b. c1877 Camberwell)
Possibly 2 more siblings b. Scotland
Allan's father - James Robertson, b. c1843 London. Married Mary Marshall Molison in 1866. Died before 1881 census.
James had 2 brothers (or half-brothers):
George Robertson, b. c1820, Wapping. Married Mary Walker Gilkison in Port Glasgow in 1849. Known children: George Wood (c1851), David (c1853), Chales Moodie (c1855) and John Wood (c1857). (NB: middle names "Wood" not very clear on census image - may be something else.) George was a ships chandler, followed into the business by son Charles. David set up on his own account in London as a sail maker. George moved from London to Liverpool c1856.
John Robertson, b. c1834, Limehouse, London. Married Augusta Jane Molison in Worthing in 1858. (NB: Augusta Jane was Mary Marshall's sister, ie. 2 brothers married 2 sisters.) Known children: George Douglas (c1860), Augusta (c1861) and Mary Douglas (c1864) - all born Bromley.
These are the only confirmed members of our family, as I have tried to point out several times! (No, I'm not getting ratty, but I honestly don't see why we should be following anyone else without something concrete to link them to the list above....)
There is, however a Colin Robertson with a very similar background, who might be a brother or cousin to James/George/John.
The Mary M Robertson b. Canada has no proven link with either "our" Robertsons or the Molisons.
I'm sorry if I haven't made the summaries clear enough, but I'm doing my best....
Rambler
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;D Good Morning Everybody,
A very productive session has been had here. :D
Well done ..Rambler...Annie....Digger....etc
I'm off to meet our family, just flown in from Canada,
armed with all my notes... ;D
Have a great hunt today. Lesanne.
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Thank you for that recap MR, especially as Annie I'm confused how the other family have gotten themselves muxed ip with our lot and so which ones to ignore.
Could I ask a question here, and I know I should be able to find the answer somewhere in this 27 pages, but I haven't managed it. Please could somebody confirm why they think this "Robinson lassie" is the same as our "Robertson lassie".
Kathy - the Grandson Alan St. John L (could be son of a son) has so many coincidences to his name I'll see if I can find grandma in censuses further back for other children, again it may be the wrong line but at least it'll hope to rule it out if not confirm.
JoT - if at the end of this somebody connected to the family picks this up I'm sure they would be very interested in any background information, just like the details of the ships that were put in earlier. It all "puts flesh on the bones" as has been said before.
This whole family seem to have a habit of leaving a son behind somewhere at school, first Paul's Claude and then my George Douglas ...... following which they seem to vanish into thin air. Could it be in preparation for say ... joining the Navy? I know Claude was found in 1891, but not afterwards. Is there any way we can check whether they did this rather than following/continuing in their own family concern?
Paul, I was wondering whether anybody confirmed that they had emailed John Robertson from Jumbrella with the Wallasey cotton merchant grandfather. Nobody seems to have mentioned on here that they have, so I'll drop him a line and see whether we get any response during next week.
Email sent
Back later today, have fun all
Mary
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Hi Mary
I think BD did contact Jumbrella but of course it was Friday (though it seems like weeks ago!) and the offices won't open again until Monday I should think.
Strange, isn't it, how the Robertson line is proving tricksier than his wife's? Established wisdom says that tracing a female line is harder but thankfully we've found a family who seem to thrive on carrying former surnames forward.
I like the idea of the preparation for a naval career.
cheers
Paul
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Pfffffffft, knew I wouldn't get out straight away, had to have a quick look on the 1871 for Alan St John L's grandma but it would seem that maybe the whole family were in Scotland until shortly before 1881. Is there somebody more familiar with searching Scottish stuff can find this Alan's daddy and exclude this family from our lot.
Only Friday? geeeeez my square eyes say I've been looking at this thread for at least three weeks!!!
Oh I wish somebody could find the brothers in 1851 or 1841. I've checked the BVRI too but none with the same parents.
I keep thinking back to probably about a third of the way through all this, where we were talking about the age difference between George and James. Are we certain they couldn't be different generations? The age different between John and George is much less and if all Augusta's children were being listed as Niece, then Margaret would probably be put down the same even if she were a "great".
Why did the family move over to the Wirral when their apparently nearest relatives were still in Liverpool? Claude and Allan's jobs (Ships chandler's clerk and Cotton Brokers Apprentice in 1891) make me think they still worked in Liverpool.
One last comment, then I'm gone for a while
Our's is definitely not the "well to do" lot, little two-up two-down houses aren't where George would choose to live with such a crowd if he could afford something bigger.
Mary
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.
I keep thinking back to probably about a third of the way through all this, where we were talking about the age difference between George and James. Are we certain they couldn't be different generations? The age different between John and George is much less and if all Augusta's children were being listed as Niece, then Margaret would probably be put down the same even if she were a "great".
Mary
I think that's a valid point. John's widow Augusta is consistently listed as George's sister-in-law, so we can take it that those two are definitely brothers. The only concrete evidence to make James their brother as well is the fact that his daughter Margaret is listed as George's niece on the 1881 census. As you point out, she might be a great-niece, wrongly recorded.
We therefore have 2 possibilities:
1. James is brother (or half-brother) to George and John.
2. James is the son of an unidentified brother of George and John. (John is too young to be James' father.)
Perhaps there is even a third possibility: that Margaret should have been recorded as George's granddaughter! That, however, is pure speculation...
Rambler
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Why did the family move over to the Wirral when their apparently nearest relatives were still in Liverpool? Claude and Allan's jobs (Ships chandler's clerk and Cotton Brokers Apprentice in 1891) make me think they still worked in Liverpool.
One last comment, then I'm gone for a while
Our's is definitely not the "well to do" lot, little two-up two-down houses aren't where George would choose to live with such a crowd if he could afford something bigger.
Mary
That's puzzling me, too - the Alderley Road house is nothing fancy, although its reasonably well located. It strikes me that this is where someone such as Allan's mum might move if the money was running out.
Nice to visualise Allan hopping on one of the "Frequent Electric Trains" that connect the Wirral with Liverpool though!
Paul
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Why did the family move over to the Wirral when their apparently nearest relatives were still in Liverpool? Claude and Allan's jobs (Ships chandler's clerk and Cotton Brokers Apprentice in 1891) make me think they still worked in Liverpool.
Mary
For the sake of non-Liverpudlians, please can someone explain exactly who moved over the Wirral and when?
Rambler
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Hi Rambler
The references on the 1891 census for Mary M Robertson, Claude and Margaret show them in Little Meols, which is Meols, Hoylake, on the Wirral.
cheers
Paul
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Thanks Paul - I'm fishing for my out-of-date A-Z as I type!
Would this be a move out to a "nicer" suburb? Or going down in the world? I've no idea which areas around Liverpool would have been cheap/expensive, fashionable/unfashionable in the late 19th century.
Both Claude and Allan were earning in 1891, although as an apprentice, Allan possibly didn't earn a lot. They could afford a live-in servant, so weren't exactly on the breadline.
Interesting!
Rambler
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This might be something completely irrelevant - so I apologise in advance (and also apologise if it's been mentioned already) but ....
With this ROBERTSON family on the IGI, I was struck by the middle name Moody, and by the location - Stepney - which we've had previously and which is not too distant (I think) from Limehouse (John's birthplace) or Wapping (George's birthplace).
A George ROBERTSON and a Mary had the following (all extracted records in the IGI - of course these may well represent more than one George and Mary but the dates fit very nicely into a sequence and there is a George born at about the right date, and a John born at about the right date though unfortunately no James at the end of the sequence):
- George & Helen b 2 Mar, bap 22 Apr 1820, Pell Street Independent, Stepney
- Archibald b 3 Mar 1825, bap 2 Mar 1826, Pell Street Independent, Stepney
- Hugh Moody b 19 Dec 1828, bap 23 Jan 1829, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Agnes b 20 Dec 1830, bap 24 Feb 1831, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Charles Mackae b 25 May, bap 25 Jul 1833, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- John b 23 Jan, bap 8 Jun 1835, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Mary b 27 Nov 1837, bap 11 May 1838, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Janet b 6 Feb, bap 3 Apr 1840, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
I think someone mentioned a George ROBERTSON being a ship's chandler in an 1829 directory? Would be good to find his address and to find him in the 1841 and 1851 censuses ...
And, drawing an even longer bow, in the 1881 census there's an 86yo widowed annuitant Mary ROBERTSON, born Camberwell, in Church Alms Houses in Richmond.
JAP
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Could I ask a question here, and I know I should be able to find the answer somewhere in this 27 pages, but I haven't managed it. Please could somebody confirm why they think this "Robinson lassie" is the same as our "Robertson lassie".
Ann Robinson from Whitby in Yorkshire, who married James Muir from Orkney is not connected to the Robertsons in any way, shape or form. But their grandson James Muir married Charlotte King, and of course they were the parents of Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir who married our subject - Alan Robertson. :)
Paul, I was wondering whether anybody confirmed that they had emailed John Robertson from Jumbrella with the Wallasey cotton merchant grandfather. Nobody seems to have mentioned on here that they have, so I'll drop him a line and see whether we get any response during next week.
Email sent
Mary
I actually did send John Robertson an email, but it was late on friday night. So I dont expect to get a reply until Monday since it was a business email address. )
BD
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Hiya,
The chap with Molison and Cornell interests has sent me some cracking info. Still trying to get him to join. Here's some detail for the Molisons...
The Dunbar family of N-E Scotland was distinctive and well recorded as to the titled branches, and not well recorded at all for the rest. One of the 'rest' was Duncan Dunbar who went to the West Indies made a fortune on a sugar plantation, and with his cousin ( Milligan) came back in the 1790s to London with the idea of building an enclosed dock area to prevent pilfering- voila, the West India Dock Company.
Duncan Dunbar prospered as a wine and spirit merchant and wharf owner in Narrow St, Limehouse Reach. The West India Docks are still there, the Dunbar Wharf is, and I am familiar with both having visited there many times. Duncan Dunbar died a wealthy man.
His 2 sons John and Duncan II took over the business. DDII bought out his brother and turned Dunbars into the largest fleet of sail ever assembled. It was larger than the Royal Navy. When he died it was the 3rd largest Probate ever recorded in the UK.
It held that record until some time in the 1980s. DDII died in 1862. The Dunbars had followed that charming Scottish custom of marrying their first cousins to keep the wealth in the family, and employing relatives where they could.
Hence you find that Osbert Forsyth, a cousin, married a Dunbar, was in business with Sir John Pirie Lord Mayor of London, and whose daughter married James Molison, another cousin and brother of Alexander Strachan Molison.
TB was a terrible scourge.
Alexander Strachan Molison lost most of his male family to it as did his brother James. They were both Dunbar captains and very good sailors.
Alexander in DDIIs will was allowed to buy a ship. He bought the Edwin Fox. He had captained it quite a bit on the NZ emigrant trade while his brother James had mostly done the Australian convict trade.
Alexander was quite a breeder.
He married twice. Firstly Augusta Jane Marshall, who died 1868 and about whom we know absolutely nothing. [This could be a helpful brickwall to collapse: Pam]
His second wife was a Dunbar cousin Sarah Anne Shores. He had 7 children by the first wife and 2 by the second.
His last child was born in 1878 the year Alexander died, and that child died in 1958.
So, Alexander's life and that of his children spanned 1802-1958, 156 years!
The Captain of the Edwin Fox was his son Alexander Joseph Molison. He bought the ship for him. AJM was married to a lady from Isle of Man by the name of Rothwell.
They had a child of whom we know absolutely nothing. [Another brickwall]
When ASM heard of the death of his son, he sailed out to India and sailed the Edwin Fox home- with the body of his son on board preserved in a barrel of rum.
A melancholy trip for him indeed. He sold it soon after.
Alex's 2 daughters Augusta Jane Molison and Mary Jean Marshall Molison married 2 brothers named Robertson.
The Robertson father was a sailmaker for DDII. Both the sons died early.
He Rev Thomas Vial Cornell married another daughter and was an Executor of his will. him we know nothing. [Yet another brickwall]
All the best,
Pam
;D
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Thanks Paul - I'm fishing for my out-of-date A-Z as I type!
Would this be a move out to a "nicer" suburb? Or going down in the world? I've no idea which areas around Liverpool would have been cheap/expensive, fashionable/unfashionable in the late 19th century.
Both Claude and Allan were earning in 1891, although as an apprentice, Allan possibly didn't earn a lot. They could afford a live-in servant, so weren't exactly on the breadline.
Interesting!
Rambler
I suspect downward mobility for Allan's mother, as in 1901 she's back in Toxteth, living with her daughter Margaret, aged 24, born Camberwell, Surrey. They are living at 27 Ashbourne Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
They are sharing a house with a widowed Eleanor Hughes, born Holyhead, Anglesey and Eleanor’s son Edward and daughter Elizabeth.
I would think the 1881 residence was the grandest, then its downhill through 1891 to 1901.
Paul
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WOW Pam! That's great stuff there!
And I notice the Narrow Street address corresponds with what we have for George Robertson's Chandlery in the trade directory!
cheers
Paul
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Pam - great stuff here, which will be very interesting to follow up! (I know it's sad really, but the body in the barrel of rum is brilliant! ;D )
JAP - this Robertson family looks promising! If we accept that James might be George and John's nephew, rather than brother (as suggested by MaryA), the "lack" of a James iisn't necessarily a problem. I suggest it's definitely worth trying to find Archibald, Charles and Hugh, to see what happens to them, and what professions they follow. That middle name Moody is perhaps more than a simple coincidence...
Rambler
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BD
I still think she should look through the thread herself and then go from there - you could be doing a lot of work that she already either has or knows... ::)
everybody is willing to do what needs to be done - as she's the first one to come forward - we'll just give her first dibs on what she wants - that sounds pretty fair doesn't it ?
I went to bed before I read this post Annie. It was like 2 am for me. (6 am for your guys) :)
Yes I did send Melinda another email suggesting that she join us because it would make communication much easier. I also mentioned that we were willing to help break down any brick walls she still has and that the first one we would try for is finding James Muir in Orkney. :)
BD
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JAP - this Robertson family looks promising! If we accept that James might be George and John's nephew, rather than brother (as suggested by MaryA), the "lack" of a James iisn't necessarily a problem. Rambler
I beleive I mentioned quite a while back that George was probably James' Uncle. :) I was told that "NO the census proves that George, James & John are brothers."
BD
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Hey BD - shows just what a virtue patience is! :)
Paul
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Alex's [Strachan Molison] 2 daughters Augusta Jane Molison and Mary Jean Marshall Molison married 2 brothers named Robertson.
The Robertson father was a sailmaker for DDII. Both the sons died early.
But then it looks like I wrong anyway. :(
The above person who sent all that lovely info on Duncan Dunbar does say that the 2 Molison girls married 2 brothers - those brothers being John & James Robertson.
Which means that James is not George's nephew. James might still be a half brother. And we also now know that their father was a sailmaker.
BD
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I've asked the chap who teh sailmaker father is as we are all on them there hooks wanting to know.
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Pam that info is incredible and so interesting along with all the other contributions it's turning into a stellar challenge!
Just to put the Narrow St address in perspective, click on Northey Street on this 1862 map - at the bottom of the map the road that runs right along the north side of the Thames is Narrow Street. It still exists somewhat intact. As Pam says many of the Warehouses still exist (now luxury loft apartments!), cobbled streets and some lovely old pubs etc. (the Bunch of Grapes is good!) - it's just down the road from me ;)
http://www.motco.com/Map/81006/
Jonathan :)
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Alex's [Strachan Molison] 2 daughters Augusta Jane Molison and Mary Jean Marshall Molison married 2 brothers named Robertson.
The Robertson father was a sailmaker for DDII. Both the sons died early.
But then it looks like I wrong anyway. :(
The above person who sent all that lovely info on Duncan Dunbar does say that the 2 Molison girls married 2 brothers - those brothers being John & James Robertson.
Which means that James is not George's nephew. James might still be a half brother. And we also now know that their father was a sailmaker.
BD
First time I have quoted myself ;D
Ok more thinking out loud.
George might be James & John's half brother but they all still have the same father by virtue of all being named Robertson. George was born in 1820, so assuming he was the eldest (it was common to name the first or second son after the father right?) then the father would have been anywhere from 20 to 30 years old - the usual age for men to get married at that time. So we are looking for a Robertson man - possibly born in Scotland - between 1790 and 1800.
Now just to add a little bit extra - my own 4x gt granfather died in 1839 at age 73 - nothing weird about that. But his LAST child was born in 1832 when he was 64. And he was 50 when he got married. I personally am thinking he must have been married before - so I am currently looking for previous marriages. My point is that it would be quite possible for Mr Robertson senior to have a child at a late age.
You know that "George Chandlers business founded 1829" is looking better and better for being our missing father - what do you guys think?
Ok I'm turning the brain off for now.
My 3 year old is clamouring to go outside :)
BD
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This might be something completely irrelevant - so I apologise in advance (and also apologise if it's been mentioned already) but ....
With this ROBERTSON family on the IGI, I was struck by the middle name Moody, and by the location - Stepney - which we've had previously and which is not too distant (I think) from Limehouse (John's birthplace) or Wapping (George's birthplace).
A George ROBERTSON and a Mary had the following (all extracted records in the IGI - of course these may well represent more than one George and Mary but the dates fit very nicely into a sequence and there is a George born at about the right date, and a John born at about the right date though unfortunately no James at the end of the sequence):
- George & Helen b 2 Mar, bap 22 Apr 1820, Pell Street Independent, Stepney
- Archibald b 3 Mar 1825, bap 2 Mar 1826, Pell Street Independent, Stepney
- Hugh Moody b 19 Dec 1828, bap 23 Jan 1829, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Agnes b 20 Dec 1830, bap 24 Feb 1831, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Charles Mackae b 25 May, bap 25 Jul 1833, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- John b 23 Jan, bap 8 Jun 1835, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Mary b 27 Nov 1837, bap 11 May 1838, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
- Janet b 6 Feb, bap 3 Apr 1840, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney
I think someone mentioned a George ROBERTSON being a ship's chandler in an 1829 directory? Would be good to find his address and to find him in the 1841 and 1851 censuses ...
And, drawing an even longer bow, in the 1881 census there's an 86yo widowed annuitant Mary ROBERTSON, born Camberwell, in Church Alms Houses in Richmond.
JAP
Found this family in 1861 -
Mary Robertson Head Widow 63 Sailmakers widow Paisley Scotland
Hugh Moody 32 Sailmaker All born Limehouse Middlesex
Agnes 30
Charles Mackae 27
Mary 21
Janet 21
James 18
Louisa Gelly Hamilton Visitor Unm 53 Fundholder Greenock Scotland
Jane Eleanor M Fielding marr 29 Farmers wife Glasgow
Janet Buchanan L Evering?? unmar Landowners daughter Glasgow
plus 3 servants
Wanstead, Essex, RG9/1060 Folio 134 Page 4
Is this fmaily anything to do with ones we are looking for?? Sorry if off on a tangent.....
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We can only work from facts, not speculation. I repeat yet again :-\ that we have little concrete evidence, except the 1881 census entry which lists James' daughter as George's niece.
There is an obvious age difference between George and James, which has already led us to propose that they might be half-brothers, with the same father but different mothers.
As we go along, we find additional clues, such as the IGI entries JAP posted today, where 2 of the sons fit very well with George and John, both in age and location. When Paul found the entry for George Robertson Ships Chandler in 1829, a father named George became an obvious possibility, and here we have a father named George. One of the children also has the middle name Moody, which George (1820) later gave to one of his sons.
In the light of this, we have to look again at the contradictory evidence of the 1881 census, and decide what is the more likely explication. I am quite prepared to accept that Margaret might be George's great-niece, not niece, but at the moment that is a hypothesis, not a fact.
After JAP made the IGI post, we had Pam's info from her Dunbar contact, which states that John and James were brothers, and takes us back to our original idea. (However, we don't know what his source is - it could also be the 1881 census entry.)
Guesswork sometimes cuts corners, but just as often send us off on a false trail....
And Pam's Dunbar contact has confirmed a lot of what we'd already found, so I think we all deserve a pat on the back! 8)
I certainly think we should follow up JAP's George Robertson family. If his wife Mary was quite young when they married, she might have had another child who isn't in the IGI, but we could also look for a second marriage for George 1840-1843.
Sorry if anyone thinks I'm being over-cautious, but keeping this thread on track at times feels like being on a runaway train! ;D ;D ;D
Rambler
CatOne - your post came up as I was typing!
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Looks like the James Robertson on the 1861 census I just posted is the one visiting the Molison Shipowners in 1871 with Mary Marshall Robertson, age and place of birth fits anyway...... (RG10/1641 Folio 63 Page 3)....unless there are more of the same age James out there :-[
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I think we may have cracked the Robertsons!
CatOne's Robertson family on the 1861 census must surely be the same as the IGI entries:
The mother Mary and children Hugh Moody, Agnes, Charles Mackae, Mary and Janet are all identical, and in addition we have a James of exactly the right age to be ours.
This looks like solid evidence to me! Are the rest of you convinced?
And of course the 1861 census wouldn't have been enough on its own without the IGI extracts, the trade directory for 1829, the other censuses which tied the Robertsons together....
I love it when a plan comes together!
(A very happy) Rambler
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Just come in and read through what's come up since I've gone and have a couple of comments.
BD I was doing the double double think the same as you as I was reading it about the two "brothers" marrying the two sisters and it makes more and more sense that they are half brothers.
JAP thanks for listing those births out, I've seen an Archibald somewhere about I believe whilst looking for George Douglas, I'm going to have to try to find him as if I'm right with a child of same name then perhaps this family is connected ......
Wonderful lot of stuff there Pam.
High Park Street, Toxteth Park - I'm trying to give you a visualisation since I was unable to get a photograph. This gives some up to date information, interesting but not of value to us http://www.bwpics.co.uk/gallery/highpark.html and I picked up this quote on there too
"This town is full of Germans, Jews, Welsh, Irish and Dutch; it has its fine sides and the docks are wondrous"
Augustus John 1900
This has a picture of a possible school which our Alan may have attended, Beresford Road being nearly directly across Park Road from High Park Street. You can see the kind of houses that may have predominated in the area, possibly slightly better than those in Uncle George's street.
http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverpool/schools/st%20cleopas.htm even though it's a pretty depressing photograph.
There were some very fine buildings around at that time and areas of Toxteth Park were quite wealthy although this is a terraced street so obviously a bit more downmarket than say, half a mile away where there were some huge houses, with families affording quite a few servants, and set in their own grounds. (remembering the place my own great grandmother was in service between the late 1870's - 1901). I'm slightly surprised to find only the two of them living in the house and did check back to see if they only occupied part of it but there are no other families sharing it in the 1881 census.
Re my comment about moving to the Wirral, maybe Mary saw it as a more genteel (old fashioned word) place on the other side of the River Mersey, but where the cost of living was more to her diminishing pocket. I would take a guess that they moved while Allan was younger rather than when he was old enough to go out to work because of the journey. Looking on the map, Alderley Road is actually listed nowadays as Wallasey which makes it rather nearer to Birkenhead than way out further in the direction of Hoylake, so fairly convenient for either the ferry "cross the Mersey" or - Paul when did those electric trains start? :P
MR - your post came up as I was typing Dunbar contact, which states that George and James were brothers
I'm confused, should that be John and James?
Blast, three times I've hit the Post button, if I get this up THEN I'm going to check out CatOne's 1861 census.
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some lovely old pubs etc. (the Bunch of Grapes is good!) - it's just down the road from me ;)
http://www.motco.com/Map/81006/
Jonathan :)
I guess that's the venue for the next Rootschat Meet sorted, then! :)
Paul
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Sorry Mary! Of course it should be John and James - I'm tying myself in knots now. Just going back to modify my post...
Rambler
Count me in for the pub!
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Oooooooooh yes CatOne, they seem to fit very nicely, well done! and it makes Mary old enough to have started out with George and finish with James too. Love it, it gets my vote.
Added after
I want my pint of lager waiting on the table when I arrive.
Forgot my manners too, thanks to everyone who helped clarify some of my own thinking by responding to my previous queries.
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I wasn't worried about the absence of a James in the IGI especially given that it's around the time that Statutory Registration began and also because the Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church records don't continue past 1840 so one probably wouldn't expect to find James in the IGI.
What I did think was that it was excellent to find a whole series of births from a George in 1820 up through a normal sequence including a John in 1835 and ending with a birth in 1840 - so the birth of a James a couple of years later was more than possible. And it explained the big age difference between George and James, and meant that it was perfectly OK for them to be brothers.
CatOne's 1861 census extract - with the family I posted earlier (from the IGI) plus a younger James - seems to tie in beautifully.
I like them! And interesting that mother Mary was born in Scotland. Perhaps the visitors will give further clues!
JAP
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A contemporary photo that shows Narrow Street (old warehouses that back straight onto the Thames) for a bit of photographic context ... :)
J
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And The Grapes ...
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Well, let's see if we can find a marriage!
As JAP points out, the visitors might be worth following up. We also have children with middle names of Moody (repeated in George Jr's family) and Mackae. These may be family names - or may be red herrings! Up to us to find out. ;D
Let's also try and locate Archibald, Hugh Moody and the others on later censuses.
Rambler
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This is the only Thomas Cornell ( out of a million and a half ..) on the 1881 that fits the criterior .... I assume Eliza is the daughter of Alexander Strachan Molison - but look at her occupation - thats not right is it ???
1. Name Thomas V. CORNELL Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 30 Occupation Curate without cure of Souls Birthplace Wethersfield, Essex, Address Lower House, Fownhope, Hereford
2. Name Eliza W. CORNELL Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 33 Occupation Cook (Domestic) Birthplace Stepney, Middlesex, Address Lower House, Fownhope, Hereford
3. Name Sarah J. ETTLE Relationship Servant Condition U Gender F Age 25 Occupation Cook Domestic Birthplace Cam, Gloucester Address Lower House, Fownhope, Hereford
4. Name Ann TAYLOR Relationship Serv Condition U Gender F Age 24 Occupation Housemaid (Domestic) Birthplace Brockhampton, Hereford Address Lower House, Fownhope, Hereford
Annie :P
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DEATHS
Hugh Moody Robertson - March qtr 1865 Derby Derbyshire 4b 351
Unfortunately no age given, but that's not to say he isn't ours as they seem to have travelled a bit.
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2. Name Eliza W. CORNELL Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 33 Occupation Cook (Domestic) Birthplace Stepney, Middlesex, Address Lower House, Fownhope, Hereford
Annie :P
Annie - I've checked the image, and the enumerator has apparently written the cook's occupation on the wrong line and crossed it out before putting it in the right place.
Rambler
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I assume Eliza is the daughter of Alexander Strachan Molison - but look at her occupation - thats not right is it ???
2. Name Eliza W. CORNELL Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 33 Occupation Cook (Domestic) Birthplace Stepney, Middlesex, Address Lower House, Fownhope, Hereford
Annie :P
Hi,
Checked the image and teh occupation on Eliza's line is crossed out as it is a mistake it should of been written on the line below.
Pam
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Re visitor Louisa Gelly Hamilton:
There's an LDS submission for the birth of a Louisa Gellie HAMILTON b 27 Feb 1806, West Greenock, Renfrew, parents John HAMILTON and Isabella GELLIE. And LDS submissions for the marriage of those parents 22 Sep 1794 in Greenock/West Greenock. And an LDS submission for the birth of that John HAMILTON 11 Oct 1755 in West Greenock, parents Archibald HAMILTON and Agnes HYNDMAN, and his burial 9 Sep 1809 in West Greenock, and a Will dated Jul 1809.
It says that Isabella GELLIE was born in Row Dunbarton, and that her father was a Capt James GELLIE.
Also lists other children to John and Isabella.
No help to us - but mentioned for completeness.
JAP
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Good - I was a little worried - imagining Jane Austen heroines marrying penniless Vicars etc. :P
Annie
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To move along the Cornell line a little though it is tangential to the challenge.
1871 Tonbridge
Dryhill Park
Charles G Clapham Head 32 Stock Exchange London Old Kent Rd, Surrey
Frances E Clapham Wife 25 Weathersfield, Essex
Thomas V Cornell Brother-in-law 20 Student at college Theology Weathersfield, Essex
Ann Growns Servant 21 Housemaid Biddenden, Kent
Mary A Muckel Servant 63 Cook Lambeth, Surrey
And 1861 Weathersfield
Summers Hall
Joseph Cornell Head 48 Farmer of 800 acres emp 40 men & 20 boys Weathersfield, Essex
Matilda Cornell Wife 41 Stoke, Suffolk
Louisa M Cornell Daughter 19 Weathersfield, Essex
Rose Cornell Daughter 17 Weathersfield, Essex
Charlotte Cornell Daughter 14 Weathersfield, Essex
King V Cornell Son 11 Weathersfield, Essex
Thomas V Cornell Son 10 Weathersfield, Essex
Joseph I L Cornell Son 7 Weathersfield, Essex
Ellen Cornell Son 2 Weathersfield, Essex
Sarah Davis Servant 25 Shalford, Essex
Eliza Shipton Servant 17 Pleshy, Essex
Pam
;D
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Possible marriages in Scotland for George Robertson and Mary (considering Mary's age in 1861 started at 1818):
George Robertson Mary Malcolm Leith South 17 Sept 1818
" " Mary Margaret Hunter or Robertson Dumfries 27 Sept 1819
" " Mary Douglas Paisley Middle 9 March 1819
" " Mary Douglas Greenock Old or West 9 March 1819
" " mary Crichton Redgarton 12 Dec 1819
Paisley looked promising and wasn't the Douglas name somewhere.
Mary Douglas chr. 28 Sept 1797 Paisley Middle parents Colin Douglas and Elizabeth Buchanan.
One of the visitors in 1861 was Janet Buchanan L Evering? born Glasgow.
Jo
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Colin Douglas marrried Elizabeth Buchanan 15 aug 1789 parish Abbey Paisley.
Can't find ref to any other children other than Mary.
Jo
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Hey we might find that Robertsons jam connection that was mentioned earlier!! The company was started by a James Robertson, b.1831, Paisley.....we've ended up back in Paisley on that line, u never know..... :)
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Can I ask a question? is this the second wife of Alexander Stachan Molison or is this his daughter ?
Name Mary J. MOLISON
Relationship Visitor
Condition U
Gender F
Age 40
Occupation Dividends
Birthplace Scotland
Address Eildon, Cheltenham, Gloucester
Annie ::) ::)
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Hold the phone... she's unmarried must be the daughter so she was an older bride???
Annie
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Annie,
The first wife of Alexander Strachan MOLISON was Augusta Jane MARSHALL and the second wife was Sarah Ann SHORES.
What date is the census you are quoting? Alexander had a daughter Mary Jean but she died as an infant. He had a later daughter called Mary (1844) but she was Mary Marshall MOLISON (and is the one who married James ROBERTSON).
JAP
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Haven't we found this before? It definitely confirms that George was John's father.
On the IGI
John Robertson married Augusta Jane Molison 16 Mar 1858 Broadwater by Worthing, Sussex, England
Husband age at marriage: 23
Wife Age at marriage: 24
His father George
Her father Alexander Strachan Molison
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This is the only Thomas Cornell ( out of a million and a half ..) on the 1881 that fits the criteria .... I assume Eliza is the daughter of Alexander Strachan Molison
1. Name Thomas V. CORNELL Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 30 Occupation Curate without cure of Souls Birthplace Wethersfield, Essex, Address Lower House, Fownhope, Hereford
The V stands for Viall. He was curate of Fownhope and Brockhampton. Educated at University College Durham.
Source Littlebury's Directory Of Herefordshire 1876-7
CORNELL, Rev. Thomas Vial, born about 1851 in England, m. Eliza Wilson Molison
born on 21 Sep. 1848 at St Dunstan, Stepney.
Source Google. Actual page is down at the moment
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On page 27 Pam said
Alex's 2 daughters Augusta Jane Molison and Mary Jean Marshall Molison married 2 brothers named Robertson.
hence I found Mary J Molison aged 40 ...... Am I going off track again ??? cos I'll stop before I do anymore....
I can't help it - it's a family trait you understand - this not knowing what the heck I'm doing ::) ::) ::)
Annie
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MaryA - we had a wedding date, but not the father's name. More confirmation!
I've posted a Robertson summary on http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=62822.0
Hope this will help everyone keep up with developments.
Rambler
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we had a wedding date, but not the father's name. More confirmation!
I'm puzzled that the name wasn't there before when the marriage was looked up, did they just sneek it in when we weren't looking? perhaps they thought we wouldn't double check 8)
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we had a wedding date, but not the father's name. More confirmation!
I'm puzzled that the name wasn't there before when the marriage was looked up, did they just sneek it in when we weren't looking? perhaps they thought we wouldn't double check 8)
I know when I looked it up I searched for Augusta as she had the more unusual name but I didn't click through the grooms name to see the father didn't think to :-[
There's a lesson learnt!
Pam
;D
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OK this is 1881 - Mary J - must have been babysitting or housesitting because there is no head of household or wife ....... !! is she one of us or shall I give up on her?
1. Name Edith J. SCOTT
Relationship Dau (Head)
Condition –
Gender F
Age 10
Occupation Scholar
Birthplace Cheltenham, Gloucester
Address Eildon, Cheltenham, Gloucester
2. Name Percy A. SCOTT
Relationship Son (Brother)
Condition –
Gender M
Age 9
Occupation Scholar
Birthplace Cheltenham, Gloucester
Address Eildon, Cheltenham, Gloucester
3. Name Mary J. MOLISON
Relationship Visitor
Condition U
Gender F
Age 40
Occupation Dividends
Birthplace Scotland
Address Eildon, Cheltenham, Gloucester
4. Name Margaret J. LAKE
Relationship Servt
Condition U
Gender F
Age 27
Occupation Dom Servt Maid
Birthplace Buckland Brewer, Devon
Address Eildon, Cheltenham, Gloucester
5. Name Mary T. LAKE
Relationship Servt
Condition U
Gender F
Age 16
Occupation Dom Servt Housemaid
Birthplace Buckland Brewer, Devon
Address Eildon, Cheltenham, Gloucester
6. Name Annie WALLIS
Relationship Servt
Condition U
Gender F
Age 29
Occupation Cook
Birthplace Cheltenham, Gloucester
Address Eildon, Cheltenham, Gloucester
Annie
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Did we determine if this family is ours too? I've got segs on me eyeballs looking for these people in the summaries - I didn't see them - could be my old eyes too of course...!!
In the midst is a daughter named Mary Moore - I can't find her anywhere else - could have been a mistranscription ...... I can't get to see images today ... it's Sunday....!! always goes down on Sundays...!!
1. Name William H. MOLISON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 49 Occupation Master Mariner Birthplace Scotland Address 43 Byron St, Westoe, Durham,
2. Name Mary A. MOLISON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 36 Occupation – Birthplace West Boldon, Durham Address 43 Byron St, Westoe, Durham
3. Name Mary J. MOORE Relationship Daur Condition – Gender F Age 16 Occupation Dressmaker Birthplace West Boldon, Durham Address 43 Byron St, Westoe, Durham
4. Name Eleanor J. MOLISON Relationship Daur Condition – Gender F Age 10 Occupation – Birthplace South Shields, Durham Address 43 Byron St, Westoe, Durham
5. Name William MOLISON Relationship Son Condition – Gender M Age 8 Occupation – Birthplace South Shields, Durham Address 43 Byron St, Westoe, Durham
6. Name Alexander MOLISON Relationship Son Condition – Gender M Age 4 Occupation – Birthplace South Shields, Durham Address 43 Byron St, Westoe, Durham
7. Name Hannah I. MOLISON Relationship Daur Condition – Gender F Age 1 Occupation – Birthplace South Shields, Durham Address 43 Byron St, Westoe, Durham
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Yep, checked the scan and it is Mary Moore with same birthplace as her mother, so presumably Mary whatever was Mrs Moore in Durham West Bolden before moving to South Shields with William.
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From IGI ( parish record entry):
Charles McCrae Robertson and Alice
son chr Hugh Moody Robertson 27 June 1869 St Dunstan Stepney
born 29 March 1869
Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody
son chr Hugh Moody Robertson 15 Oct 1790 Old or West Parish Greenock
also John Robertson 27 July 1788
Hopefully we'll find that they also had a George :)
Jo
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So - are they ours???
Annie
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Well done Jo and at least you have confirmed for me that Charles is still about somewhere at 1869, having problems finding him in 1871.
Annie - will tell you when I find the census entry!
Good luck with George, sounds very promising with those names.
Mary
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1881
Justine L. MOLISON Head M Female 31 Poplar, Middlesex No Occupation
Duncan D. SHORES Bro In Law U Male 25 Worthing, Sussex No Occupation
180 Brixton Road Lambeth, Surrey, England
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Can someone please repost the census entry (1861 I think - or was it the IGI family group?) that has everyone all excited about finding the Robertson family? I've read all the way back to page 20 and cant seem to find it.
Thanks.
BD
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BD
Two thirds of the way down Page 28, big blue box with the census beneath it, posted by CatOne.
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Just remembered I have the BVRI discs from LDS and dug them out -
Between 1791 and 1806, Renfrewshire, Scotland (is that the area we want? not very good on Scottish geography)
Children of -
Robert Robertson and Elizabeth Buchanan -
George 1791
James 1794
Robert 1795
Isobel 1798
James 1800
Elizabeth 1802
Robert 1804
John 1806
A possible for the George we want?.....
ps. had a look on multimap.com, says Renfrewshire right next to Paisley, the area we want I think.....
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'Scotlandspeople.gov.uk' has 6 of the Robert Robertson and Elizabeth Buchanan children (1st James and the John are missing). All baptised at Abbey parish Paisley.
Would have liked to see a Robert and Elizabeth amongst George and Mary's children as it seems names were passed down.
Jo
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Between 1791 and 1806, Renfrewshire, Scotland (is that the area we want? not very good on Scottish geography)
Children of -
Robert Robertson and Elizabeth Buchanan -
George 1791
James 1794
Robert 1795
Isobel 1798
James 1800
Elizabeth 1802
Robert 1804
John 1806
A possible for the George we want?.....
George born between 1790 & 1800, probably in Scotland - I was right!!!!!!!!!
BD
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Ta Muchly Mary for Page 28 :)
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Needing help finding the Robertsons in 1871, have checked all the names in Wanstead (where they were in 1861), have looked at all the Charles Mac/Mck plus variants, have checked practically every soundex search with a born Limehouse, have checked every Mary of the age, born Scotland and have looked at every Hugh born 1869 and I'm defeated. Have they all returned to Scotland? Is there any way of checking the census there?
A possible marriage for Charles is to Alice Mary Lousdale 12 December 1865 Christ Church Cheltenham Gloucester but no confirmation, no parents listed, not even his mackae in the middle and I'm now goggle eyed.
Mary
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Needing help finding the Robertsons in 1871, have checked all the names in Wanstead (where they were in 1861), have looked at all the Charles Mac/Mck plus variants, have checked practically every soundex search with a born Limehouse, have checked every Mary of the age, born Scotland and have looked at every Hugh born 1869 and I'm defeated. Have they all returned to Scotland? Is there any way of checking the census there?
A possible marriage for Charles is to Alice Mary Lousdale 12 December 1865 Christ Church Cheltenham Gloucester but no confirmation, no parents listed, not even his mackae in the middle and I'm now goggle eyed.
Mary
Charles M Robertson in West Derby, Lancs with wife Alice and children (5 daughters, 1 son) I think, occ Sailmaker, age difficult to read, been transcribed as 41 but could be 7......RG10/3847 Folio 119 Page 6
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To summarise:
2 couples have been suggested as possible parents of George Robertson Sr.
1. Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody - had children named John Robertson (1788) and Hugh Moody Robertson (1790). No record of a child named George, but heavy coincidence of names - George Sr's first 3 sons are named George, Archibald and Hugh Moody. The birthplace is Greenock.
2. Robert Robertson and Elizabeth Buchanan - had a son named George in 1791, plus James, Robert, Isobel, James, Elizabeth, Robert and John between 1794 and 1806. The birthplace is Paisley.
We have a likely-looking marriage between George Sr and Mary Douglas in Paisley in 1819. Mary was born in 1797 (fits census data), daughter of Colin Douglas and Elizabeth Buchanan. Douglas crops up in the family as a first or second name in later generations.
So which couple do we think were George Sr's parents?
Rambler
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Hi,
Found him living West Derby Lancashire I hope ::)
RG10/3841 Folio 119 page 6
Charles M Robertson Head Mar 41 Sailmaker b London Middlesex
Alice Robertson wife 47 Lancashire Liverpool
Charles M do son unm 18 do do
Jessie do daur 17 do do
Alice M Robertson daur 14 b: Stepney London
Agnes M Robertson daur 8 b: Hertfordshire
Helen E Robertson daur 10 do do
Lilias Robertson daur 5 b: Stratford, Middlesex
Susan ;D
added - thought I was typing faster ???
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Possible death of Agnes Robertson?
West Derby, Lancs (living near her brother Charles then?)
Age 69 (age matches) Vol 8b Page 265 1901 December Qtr
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From the IGI (user submitted entry):
Douglas Muir Robertson
Born 9 January 1900, Liverpool Lancashire
Died 2 October 1942
Marriage 11 July 1928 - spouse unavailable
Parents: Alan Robertson and Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir (as if we didn't know!)
Searches for Douglas, Alan and Charlotte in the 1901 census have drawn a complete blank.
Were they in America or Scotland?
cheers
Paul
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Well done finding Charles Mackae and Agnes - those details look good to me. I suggest Charles' wife is probably Alice Mary Lonsdale, and Lousdale is a mistranscription.
Here's George Jr's son Charles on Free BMD:
Births Dec 1855
Robertson Charles Moody Stepney 1c 517
Rambler
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Anyone got any views on this, from freebmd:
Birth of Allan Holmes Robertson, Toxteth Park, Sept Qtr 1899 - good timing for a first child for Allan and Charlotte (married on 14 July 1898)?
Don't think we've seen a Holmes cropping up anywhere up to now though, so this may be a wild red herring chase. ;)
Paul
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Thank you for CatOne and Keziahemm ..... Kezia? You've been found then! Please let Paul know, he's been very worried ;D ;D you've set my mind at rest, about Charles and family although I never expected to find him in Liverpool, also a search five year each way of 47 nicely misses 41 doh! Poor Hugh has either been left behind again (yet another one!) or has died.
Hmmmmmmm I've checked both scans and I don't think this is the family, much as I would like to believe it is.
In 1861 Charles was Unmarried and 27 years old. In the space of 10 years he suddenly has a family with an 18 year old son and gained 4 - 10 years. Once again we have a confusion of two families, both sailmakers and both born London and who knows whose child the missing Hugh is as both of them could possibly have been in the right place at the right time. Trying to trace these in other years to discount them and I've found Lilias at boarding school in Cheshire in 1881 - these have GOT to be related, they keep leaving their chldren all around the country. There's an Ellen Emily born to a Charles and Alice in St Thomas, Stepney in 1864, date is a little out for this Helen but ....
I need sleep ...... :-\ :'( ??? ??? ??? >:(
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Paul, There's an entry on LancashireBMD for 1928
ROBERTSON Douglas S TAYLOR Mary E Edge Hill, St. Cyprian Liverpool
Do you think the S could be a mistake?
I'd rather chase herrings than gooses anyway! ;D
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Hi Mary
Actually, I was wondering about the 'S', because freebmd has the birth of
Douglas Stanley Robertson in March Qtr 1901, West Derby.
Maybe the IGI submission is a bit dodgy? :)
Paul
Chairman
Campaign for the Right to Mix Metaphors
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I've got to the stage where I think the whole Robertson clan is dodgy.
I'm pretty sure there are definitely two Charles Robertson families about, see my previous on this page. Just haven't got a clue how to prove it.
Mary
President
Confusion Unlimited amongst Scousers
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And just to add grist to the herring...
Birth of Thomas Douglas Robertson, Toxteh Park, Sept Qtr 1901.
Problem is, there are just too many Robertsons around so the parents of Thomas D and Allan H could be anyone.
I'm afraid my knowledge of Liverpool isn;t as complete as it should be :)
West Derby - Edge Hill (I think they're reasonably close aren't they?) But Toxteth Park perhaps a little further away?
Paul
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West Derby is north east of Liverpool but as a registration district covered a lot including across slightly north west to Bootle and Crosby. Liverpool covered the centre and Toxteth Park most of the south. Edge Hill isn't far from West Derby as in the village/town and definitely would be within the registration district. Of course the marriage we were looking at is nearly 30 years after we have any of "our" Robertsons in the Toxteth Park area, so they could easily have moved a bit by then.
March quarter should be early enough to be included in the 1901 census.
Mary
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Yeeehaaaa ;D
Another reply from Melinda.
Dear Burrow Digger,
I registered at Rootschat with the user name of
"Sedona". It's about time I got my genealogy out
and started doing something with it anyway! I
have been using my spare time to create art. But
I will fit this in.
As for brickwalls, the
biggest is finding James Muir in the Orkney
Islands (I would write this to all of you but I
am not sure how to find your group there or if
the link is directly to your group, but you can
paste this in). (Yes the link I gave her was directly to page 1 of this thread) One theory is that he fibbed
about his birth year as he is quite a bit older
than his wife.
My grandfather, James Jennings
Muir, Charlotte's grandson, has a cousin who I
think has passed away. He lived in England and
went up to the Orkneys for the express purpose of
finding our James Muir, but had no luck. He is
the one who wrote the book about the Muir family.
I have the Barbados info on files from a
genealogist down there. Some of it is collateral
lines (which you probably could use for your
project) and I do know that it does have a few
errors, like in one file he skipped a generation,
making the grandfather the father. But if you
want, I can send them as attachments (all
together there is about 50 pages, from around 8
surnames that are directly back from Charlotte).
I will get out my genealogy (on paper) and look
to see where we hit the walls for each related
line and let you know in the next day or two.
Oh,
by the way, last night I skimmed part of your
thread and the L someone was wondering about most
likely stands for Lyte as it is one of the
Barbados surnames.
Well, that is all for now. Let me know if you
want those Barbados files and I can write and
tell you where that mistake is. (what mistake? The grandfather as a father? OOH how interesting)
Sincerely, Sedona.
-
Paul
This will be your Douglas S - 1901
RG13/3491 West Derby Western F82 P17
3 Schomberg Street, Low Hill area (quite near the north end of the City Centre)
John Robertson Head M 45 Stationery Bookbinder
Emma Wife 37
Edith M daur 15
John P Son 14 Shop Boy
Sydney S Son 4
Douglas S " 2 months
All born Liverpool
I'll leave it up to you to figure out whether they could be a son of a son of one of ours.
Mary
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Nice one BD, I wonder how much will confirm ours, can't wait to find out.
Mary
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Hi Mary
That may, therefore, be Douglas you found the marriage for on LancsBMD?
John Robertson Head M 45 Stationery Bookbinder
I prefer Stationary Bookbinders - they're much easier to pin down ::)
BD - what a find!
(By the time this thread finished we should be able to submit a pretty comprehensive Ancestral File to the LDS, don't you think? :))
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Nice one BD, I wonder how much will confirm ours, can't wait to find out.
Mary
Umm so what do you want me to do?? Have her send me 50 pages of files?? Not that I mind, but the hard drive might!! LOL
If you then want me to send her files to anyone who asks? This challenge would be over in a matter of days - we still have 3 weeks to go.
No I think the best idea is as follows. I have stated this to Sedona, as it is more in the spirit of the challenge.
Please dont send me any files for now. I think the best idea is for us to continue looking as we have been doing, and you can confirm if we are correct or if we are wrong.
And Paul,
And would we need her permission to even upload this info to the LDS?
Oh and what about to Rootsweb as part of the World tree? Although I have my doubts about that because Ancestry.com then tend to turn around and resell the info - that which we have lovingly put together for fun - and they want to make a profit from it.
Opinions anyone?
On and I am still encouraging Sedona to reply herself on the thread. I know that she will be warmly welcomed, if she does eventually post. :)
BD
-
Does this little guy fit in anywhere?
Baptised 04/07/1881
Child's name James Muir ROBERTSON
Father Wm.
Mother Ellen E
Mother's Maiden name
Place
Occupation
Birth date 1881/06/12
Parish Newcastle, John Knox (Presbyterian), Nbl
-
The way this thread has taken off, and given that we've come across a really interesting set of related families, I wondered about doing a full summary at the end of the month and posting it as a RootsChat web page?
That way the fruits of our joint research would be freely available to all without folk having to plough through 30+++ pages and the multiple meanderings of our red geese and wild herrings!
I agree with BD that the challenge is to find out as much as possible ourselves, although if Sedona would like to chip in with corrections or confirmations, that would be great...
Past midnght in my part of the world, and I'm off to bed - I'm not going to try and sort out any more Robertsons until tomorrow!
Rambler
-
;D Good Evening All. ;D
How busy youv'e all been.
Just got home after meeting all the family.
Still my John Muir no good to anybody. :'(
He was born in Shadwell, Stepney in 1855.
;D No takers, OK, I'm off to my pit.
Good night all. Lesanne. ;D
-
The way this thread has taken off, and given that we've come across a really interesting set of related families, I wondered about doing a full summary at the end of the month and posting it as a RootsChat web page?
That way the fruits of our joint research would be freely available to all without folk having to plough through 30+++ pages and the multiple meanderings of our red geese and wild herrings!
I agree with BD that the challenge is to find out as much as possible ourselves, although if Sedona would like to chip in with corrections or confirmations, that would be great...
Past midnght in my part of the world, and I'm off to bed - I'm not going to try and sort out any more Robertsons until tomorrow!
Rambler
Great idea to post a website - perhaps we should volunteer to write bits of it up?
Only 11.20 here in the wilds of the Wirral, but work tomorrow so, here's another Rootschatter signing off ...
but with a strange sense of contentment :)
Evening all
Paul
-
1881
Name William John ROBERTSON Relationship – Condition M Gender M Age 25 Occupation Lieut R Horse Artillery Birthplace Rawul Pindee, India Address Serapis
Name Agnes Mary ROBERTSON Relationship – Condition M Gender F Age 26 Occupation Wife Of Above Birthplace Southsea, Hampshire Address Serapis
Name Wilfred Andrew ROBERTSON Relationship – Condition U Gender M Age 2 m Occupation Son Of Above Birthplace Blackheath, Kent Address Serapis
http://www.barnardf.demon.co.uk/pictures/jumna.htm
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Found 2 baptisms refs for George Robertson son of Archibald Robertson, but neither have the mothers name:
George Robertson 1 Jan 1787 Leith South
George Robertson 22 Dec 1793 Newhills
Without the mother we're a bit stuck.
Jo
-
3 cotton brokers named Robertson in 1881 sons of Archibald
Name Archabald ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition W Gender M Age 54 Occupation Iron Monger Birthplace Lpool Address 3 Stanley Rd, Liverpool, Lancashire
Name Archabald ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 22 Occupation Clerk In Cotton Brokers Birthplace Lpool Address 3 Stanley Rd, Liverpool, Lancashire
Name William ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 19 Occupation Clerk In Cotton Brokers Birthplace Lpool Address 3 Stanley Rd, Liverpool, Lancashire
Name Ann ROBERTSON Relationship Daur Condition U Gender F Age 18 Occupation – Birthplace Lpool Address 3 Stanley Rd, Liverpool, Lancashire
Name John ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 8 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Lpool Address 3 Stanley Rd, Liverpool, Lancashire
Name Peter ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 17 Occupation Clerk In Cotton Brokers Birthplace Lpool Address 3 Stanley Rd, Liverpool, Lancashire
-
Found 2 baptisms refs for George Robertson son of Archibald Robertson, but neither have the mothers name:
George Robertson 1 Jan 1787 Leith South
George Robertson 22 Dec 1793 Newhills
Without the mother we're a bit stuck.
Jo
They both could be his if the first one died young :)
BD
-
1881
Name George ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 43 Occupation Rigger Birthplace Shetland Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Catherine ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 42 Occupation – Birthplace Scotland Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Elizabeth G. ROBERTSON Relationship Daur Condition U Gender F Age 12 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire, England Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park Lancashire
Name William C. ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 7 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire, England Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Elizabeth MOODIE Relationship Mother Condition W Gender F Age 77 Occupation – Birthplace Scotland Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
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1881
Name George ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 43 Occupation Rigger Birthplace Shetland Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Catherine ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 42 Occupation – Birthplace Scotland Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Elizabeth G. ROBERTSON Relationship Daur Condition U Gender F Age 12 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire, England Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park Lancashire
Name William C. ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 7 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire, England Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Elizabeth MOODIE Relationship Mother Condition W Gender F Age 77 Occupation – Birthplace Scotland Address 90 Dorrit St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
George was born in shetland?? and no parish or island? oh my. Thats like a needle in the haystack - a lotta islands up there.
Would Elizabeth Moodie be George's mother or more likely Catherines mother?
BD
-
Was Claude Robertson (Alan's brother) ever married?
If yes, to whom was he married & did they have any kids? :)
BD
-
Site down !- couldn't do anything tonight - too pooped now.....!!
we're making it an easy morning for you MR ....!
Annie ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
-
There is considerable duplication in these posts (Part One and Part Two) vis-a-vis earlier posts but I hope that it might be useful as a summary (and, boy, with 33 pages to date, have MR's summaries managed to save us all from nervous breakdowns!!).
GILKISON and WALKER families (Part One)
RootsChat and FamilySearch were both down so I thought I'd have a look in the 1841 census on FreeCEN for Mary Walker GILKISON, wife of "our" Allan's Uncle George ROBERTSON - and would also Google for the family.
This is not Allan's direct line but who knows where it might lead, or even whether it might assist us to find anything more on Allan's grandfather, George ROBERTSON who married Mary from Paisley. And at least it does relate to "our" family!
I typed up some information but thought I'd better not fall into the trap of thinking that I was posting new information when it had already been posted. So I've struggled through the whole 33 pages of the thread (!) only to come across all the wonderful GILKISON information which JoT found and posted back on pages 24/25/26.
So I'll try to put Jo's great information together with my information as a summary.
As it happens there were two (or perhaps three) persons named Mary Walker GILKISON of an appropriate age (one in 1821, one in 1830, the other?) in Port Glasgow - the name presumably traces back to a Mary WALKER who had married a David GILKISON (as you can imagine, GILKISON is a name with a heap of variable spellings).
Unfortunately the GILKISON/WALKER entries in the IGI are LDS submissions - but they look reliable.
David GILKISON married Mary WALKER, 10/18 Dec 1775, Irvine Ayrshire.
They had (all in Irvine Ayr) William 1777, Margaret 1779, Mary Parker 1783, Jacobina 1784, Archibald 1786, Elizabeth 1787, Robert 1791, James 1798, John 1801.
Also, unfortunately (see next section) there doesn't seem to be a David ... But surely David who m Elizabeth WOOD (see below) is a son of David GILKISON and Mary WALKER?
Mary Walker GILKISON #1
Here is the earlier Mary Walker GILKISON (from JoT's post on page 24):
"Uncle George's wife Mary Walker Gilkison chr. 3 July 1821 in Port Glasgow. Parents were David Gilkison and Elizabeth WOOD. Hence the Wood in George's children's names."
David GILKISON married Elizabeth WOOD, 16 Oct 1815 in Port Glasgow (extracted IGI entry).
"Mary's siblings:"
All in Port Glasgow:
Elizabeth chr 24 Aug 1816
David chr 22 Aug 1817
David chr 4 June 1819
Mary Walker chr 3 Jul 1821
Janet chr 29 Nov 1822
John Wood GILKESON chr 19 Oct 1824
Margaret chr 3 Apr 1827
Isabella chr 16 Apr 1829
all from the IGI taken from parish records.
Here is the above family in the 1841 census on FreeCEN.
Glenhuntly, Port Glasgow (574/8/8/11)
David 55 Merchant b Scotland (not RFW)
Elizabeth 50 b RFW
David 20 Agent b RFW
(presumably this is the David GILKISON, b abt 1820 (i.e. aged ca 41) Port Glasgow, whom JoT listed as being a Visitor in George ROBERTSON's household in Toxteth Park, Liverpool in 1861. JoT also listed David as "David Gilkison, George's brother in law in 1871:
David Gilkison head unmar. 61 West India merchant b. Port Glasgow
address - 2 Glenhuntley House Port Glasgow
Handy brother in law surely for a family of ships chandlers"
Could the age of 61 be a mistranscription for 51?)
Eliz 20 b RFW
Mary 15 b RFW
Janet 15 b RFW
Margt 13 b RFW
Isa 11 b RFW
2 servants
Mary Walker GILKISON #2
The later Mary Walker GILKISON was chr 3 Feb 1830 in Port Glasgow, daughter of Robert GILKISON and Eleanora BROWN (extracted entry from the IGI). Robert and Eleanora married in Port Glasgow, 5 Jul 1819 (extracted IGI entry). This seems to be the Robert b 1791, son of David GILKISON and Mary WALKER; and Eleanora the daughter chr 1792 in Port Glasgow, daughter of Richard BROWN and Eleanora BLAIR who married (LDS submission) in 1785 in Irvine Ayr.
Here is this family in the 1841 census from FreeCEN.
Wood Bank, Port Glasgow (574/1/1/8)
Robert 45 Merchant b Scotland (not Renfrewshire)
Eleanor 45 b RFW
David 13 b RFW
Mary 11 b RFW
2 servants
According to the IGI, Robert GILKISON and Eleanor BROWN had, all in Port Glasgow:
Robert chr 1820
Eleanora Blair chr 1821
Richard Brown chr 1825
David chr 1827
Mary Walker chr 1830
Mary Walker GILKISON #3?
Just to add a bit more confusion, there seems possibly to be yet another Mary Walker GILKISON! A Mary Walker GILKISON (father John]/i] GILKISON) married a Robert Adam WHYTLAW, 6 Jun 1854, in Glasgow (extracted entry from the IGI). I guess this Mary could well be an unrecorded daughter of John, 1801, son of David GILKISON and Mary WALKER.
The message is getting too long so will have to be divided!
JAP
-
To add to the Gilkison story:
Fairly certain the 2 Mary Walker Gilkison's are cousins, both named after their paternal grandmother.
David Gilkison and Mary Walker had Robert 1791, John 1801, William(1777) (LDS entries) and David.
Robert married Eleanora Brown and had Robert 1820, Eleanora Blair 1821, Richard Brown 1825, David 1827 and Maryy Walker 1830.
David married Elizabeth Wood and had teh cildren I've already listed.
I'll check LDS entries withe the parish records on scotslandpeople this evening.
Scottish naming tradition has it that (with some variations according to family):
1st son - paternal grandfather
2nd son - maternal grandfather
3rd son - father
1st daughter - maternal grandmother
2nd daughter - paternal grandmother
3rd daughter - mother
Hence the 2 Mary Walker Gilkisons.
Do our Robertsons use a variation of this tradition?
Jo
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GILKISON and WALKER families (Part Two)
MORE GILKISON INFORMATION
There is information on the GILKISON family at:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~macfie/familyconnections.html
There was a Gilkison, Thompson and Company shipyard in Irvine, Ayrshire (the GILKISON was a James, Shipmaster of Ayr).
There are references to Robert GILKISON and Eleanora BROWN though not to David GILKISON and Elizabeth WOOD - though surely Robert and David are brothers.
As JoT said on page 26 (and quoted from that site):
'Just can't get away from the Gilkisons - too intriguing I'm afraid. Just for background info.:
Fairly certain that Uncle George Robertson's wife Mary Walker nee Gilkison is a niece of the William and John mentioned below. Elora is in Canada.
"Elora's name came from a more exotic and convoluted source. Captain (retired) William Gilkison founded the settlement in 1832. He was a cousin of John Galt whose namesake has since been changed to Cambridge. Gilkison's brother, also John, was also a captain. He had a ship called "The Ellora" which was named for the seventh and eighth century cave temples and sculptures at Ellora, 273 kilometres northeast of Bombay. William Gilkison named the village after his brother's ship."
In addition to that:
"It is believed that Robert (1791) Gilkison's brother William Gilkison (1777) was best friend to John Galt, and is mentioned in the book titled "The GALTS", a Canadian Odyssey, (part 1 and Part 2) by H B Timothy (1977), as being buried in an unmarked grave close to the tombstone of the great Mohawk indian Chief Joseph Brant ." '
GILKISON WILLS and CONTRACTS
(From JoT on page 25)
"Uncle George's wife Mary's father was David. Considering the occupation of her brother David in the 1871 census I think this is reference to her father's will (only one in Port Glasgow):
David Gilkison 19 Dec 1856 merchant and shipowner in Port Glasgow will was dealt withy by Paisley court.
No more details I'm afraid without paying £5!!!
Surely George would have had to be from a worthy family for David to agree to the marriage?"
"A few refs to the Gilkisons and ships before I try to find any link from the Gilkisons to our Robertsons other than the marriage of Uncle George and Mary:
Post nuptial contract of marriage in 1840!!!!
James Gilkison, Shipmaster, later residing at Irvine, spouse of Isobell Montgomerie. An inventory as part of the contract put to Ayr Sheriff Court 19 Feb 1840.
Richard Brown Gilkison, Shipmaster in Port Glasgow thereafter in London. Inventory and will presented to Edinburgh Sheriff Court 8 Sept. 1860.
Robert Gilkison, Shipowner Residing at Port Glasgow. Will presented to Paisley Sheriff Court 21 Feb 1860"
JAP
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Was Claude Robertson (Alan's brother) ever married?
If yes, to whom was he married & did they have any kids? :)
BD
We haven't found anything for Claude after the 1891 census - no marriage, no 1901 census entry. No death either, so there's quite a bit to look for! Has anyone looked for him on US passenger lists?
Rambler
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JAP & JoT (now why does that sound like a kids cartoon series? :))
Have just woken up and (a bit bleary eyed) read through your posts - amazing work! I've had another go with Genes Reunited to see if we can tept some Gilchrist family followers to join us.
cheers
Paul
PS Glad we haven't forgotten Claude! There's not a single BMD reference for Claude on Ancestry
-
Claude Robertson/Robinson
I have looked everywhere for him on numerous emigration lists - I'm wondering if he went to the Boer War .......
I've checked all kinds of casualty lists etc
CWG - Honour Rolls - Memorials - checking with the Admiralty waiting for reply checked Army and Navy pension lists - starting to go through tombstones checked Texas up and down - wondering whether to go through the Dunbar line....... tried Australia - tried Canada - got feelers out - but no reply - except a few negatives - but I'm still trucking..... :P :P
Annie
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Paul E,
My absolute favourite post on this incredibly lengthy thread has to be the brilliant photo of the backs of the warehouses fronting/backing on to the Thames posted by JonathanW.
Desirable residences, eh!
I hate to think what one would have to pay to buy one of those these days. Such places often seem to appear in BBC series and in films. Wow!
JAP
-
You're right JAP - brilliant photos from Jonathan. Someday perhaps we'll be able to take a river cruise past these same properties.
cheers
Paul
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:D Good Morning people.
You have been going some, all this info, well done.
I feel a member of the Cheer Leaders now having been away.
But helping you all along, with my notes of encouragement. ;D ;D
:D :D :D Yea, yea, yea, go, go, go, :D :D :D
Have a good day. Lesanne.
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1881
Is this George Robertson and Mary Walker's son Hugh??
Name Hugh E. ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 55 Occupation Shipwright Birthplace Scotland Address Upper Stanhope St 5 Court No 7, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Margaret ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 51 Occupation – Birthplace Ireland Address Upper Stanhope St 5 Court No 7, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Mary C. ROBERTSON Relationship Dau Condition U Gender F Age 12 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address Upper Stanhope St 5 Court No 7, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Annie :P
-
Just thought I'd let you know ...
I thought I would print out this thread for reference.
Before I set the printer running, thought I'd better do a 'print preview'.
For those who are able to access a stationery supplier (maybe John Robertson will help out!) - the thread at the moment is 160 pages long!
Paul :)
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Gee Paul E,
I had intended to print out parts of the thread.
But my printer suddenly decided to die.
Perhaps it knew what might be coming!
; )
JAP
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Is this George Robertson and Mary Walker's son Hugh??
Name Hugh E. ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 55 Occupation Shipwright Birthplace Scotland Address Upper Stanhope St 5 Court No 7, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Annie :P
No - the only definite Hugh Robertson we have so far is Hugh Moody Robertson, b. Limehouse 1828, son of George Robertson Sr and Mary.
Unless I've missed someone, George Robertson Jr and Mary Walker Gilkison had George Wood Robertson (c1851), David Robertson (c1853), Charles Moody Robertson (c1855) and John Wood Robertson (c1857).
Rambler
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Is this George Robertson and Mary Walker's son Hugh??
Name Hugh E. ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 55 Occupation Shipwright Birthplace Scotland Address Upper Stanhope St 5 Court No 7, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Margaret ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 51 Occupation – Birthplace Ireland Address Upper Stanhope St 5 Court No 7, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Mary C. ROBERTSON Relationship Dau Condition U Gender F Age 12 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address Upper Stanhope St 5 Court No 7, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Annie :P
Annie,
Please clarify!!
Firstly, what date is the census?
Secondly are you referring to a George ROBERTSON and a Mary WALKER (or a Mary Walker GILKISON)?
Thirdly, where did Hugh E ROBERTSON come from? Where is the birth of a Hugh E ROBERTSON to a George ROBERTSON and and a Mary WALKER or a Mary Walker GILKISON?
Sorry if I've missed something.
JAP
PS: ROBERTSON is a dreadfully common name ...
-
Can anyone across the pond follow up this tantalising lead...
An obituary in the San Angelo Times, Texas
BIG SPRING - E.H. ''Buddy'' Robertson, 71, died Tuesday, March 4, 2003, in a
local nursing home. Graveside service will be at 2:30 p.m. Thursdayin Trinity
Memorial Park. Arrangements are by Nalley-Pickle & Welch Funeral Home.
Survivors include wife, Vera Robertson of Big Spring; sons, Mike Robertson of
Midland and Brain Scott Robertson of Houston; daughters, Patti Robertson of Big
Spring and Vicki Martin of Lubbock; brother, Claude Robertson of Big Spring;
sisters, Lillian Dossey of Colorado City and Faye Adams of Brazoria.
If Claude DID emigrate, then this Claude might be the right age to be a grandson.
cheers
Paul
-
PRINTING
if anyone wants an adobe pdf version of the thread to date i have one which i could mail you, but it is 14M in size.........
Sue
-
I'm at work so have only time for a quick note.
Nice one BD, I wonder how much will confirm ours, can't wait to find out.
Mary
Umm so what do you want me to do?? Have her send me 50 pages of files?? Not that I mind, but the hard drive might!! LOL
BD No I wasn't suggesting that, but what I am thinking is that anybody with such a lot of information must have a strong interest in genealogy and their own family in particular and I'm sure that at the end of all of this she will find some details that add to her own research, so by reading through she could possibly pinpoint any errors or omissions that we have made.
If it was our own family that was being done we'd be able to see places where researchers not knowing any better would take a wrong avenue. Perhaps she could just see if we have made any major incorrect assumptions.
Annie, I've been looking into similar places for the Robertson family found in 1861 so if you come across any of these while en route, please take note.
Mother - Mary Robertson b 1798 Paisley Scotland
- George & Helen b 2 Mar, bap 22 Apr 1820, - We already know about George, not Helen
- Archibald b 3 Mar 1825, bap 2 Mar 1826,
- Hugh Moody b 19 Dec 1828, bap 23 Jan 1829,
- Agnes b 20 Dec 1830, bap 24 Feb 1831,
- Charles Mackae b 25 May, bap 25 Jul 1833,
- John b 23 Jan, bap 8 Jun 1835, - We already know about him
- Mary b 27 Nov 1837, bap 11 May 1838,
- Janet b 6 Feb, bap 3 Apr 1840,
James b 1843 - We already know about him.
All above except mother Mary, baptised in Stepney. George, Helen and Archibald not at home in 1861.
If we are accepting this family as "ours" for reasons already stated above Charles M in West Derby, 1871 is NOT ours.
Mary, Just trying to summarise.
-
Trying to sort out the 2 Charles Robertsons who've been causing confusion:
1. Charles Robertson - b. c1840 Liverpool - doesn't seem to be one of ours. He married Alice M, b. c1840 Sydney, Australia, and had the following children (census data):
Charles D. Robertson (c1867, Tunbridge Wells)
Percy Robertson (c1869, Milan)
Claud W. Robertson (c1870, Blackheath)
Adrian Robertson (c1871, Walton-on-Thames)
Mildred A. Robertson (c1873, Walton-on-Thames)
Roland S. Robertson (c1877, Walton-on-Thames)
Claud W cropped up earlier when we were looking for Allan's brother Claude, so that's another problem solved - he isn't one of ours.
Alice M is probably the Alice Mary Lousdale (sic) who marries Charles Robertson in Cheltenham in 1865 - an Alice M Lonsdale from New South Wales is listed on the 1861 census. This Charles Robertson is an artist.
2. Charles McCrae Robertson, who may be the same person as George Sr's son Charles Mackae Robertson. His wife is also called Alice, just to confuse matters. They have at least 2 children (IGI data):
Ellen Emily Robertson (1864, Stepney) father's name given as Charles
Hugh Moody Robertson (1869, Stepney) father's name given as Charles McCrae
Unfortunately the only Charles M/Alice Robertson family on census which seems to fit roughly with this one shows other children born before 1861, when our Charles Mackae was still single:
Charles M Robertson (c1853, Liverpool)
Jessie Robertson (c1854, Liverpool)
Alice M Robertson (c1857, Stepney)
Helen E Robertson (c1861, Stepney)
Agnes M Robertson (c1863, Hertfordshire)
Lilias Robertson (c1866, Stratford)
The Charles M Robertson on the 1871 census is a sailmaker, b. c1836 London.
I can't find any trace of Hugh Moody Robertson b. 1869 on census or Free BMD, but he certainly ought to belong to our family.
Is it possible that Charles Mackae, son of George Sr married a widow named Alice, and some of the children on the 1871 census record are really his step-children? It isn't uncommon to find step-children listed with their step-father's surname. But given that the oldest son is also Charles M, I'm a bit doubtful about this. Needless to say, I can't find Charles M (1853) on Free BMD to check the middle name!
Opinions please!
Rambler
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Been looking for a marriage of a Charles on LancashireBMD or FreeBMD and there is only one showing and as there are two grooms sharing three brides I get the feeling another (Alice) wouldn't be wanted in there!
It's a definite possibility that its her second marriage and at present I'm trawling my way through all the Jessie's in the 1861 census in Liverpool to see if I can find them under another name.
Saints and patience come to mind, but then so do English(wo)men and mad dogs. Don't we do all sorts of stupid things just to prove a point.
Just realised, they should be in Stepney! or Hertfordshire blast, they could be anywhere in the country! :'(
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I have just found a list of 1932 births in Texas including EH
but also including a Claude!! -
I have a problem - I can get an image - but I can't put that on the board ....
and it's too big to type out - can I send it to somebody and they can do fancy things with it???
Name Henry E Robertson Jr.
Date of Birth 1 Nov 1932
Gender Male
Birth County McLennan
Father's Name H E Robertson
Mother's Name Johana Cain
Got this much though - this is in reply to Paul's post ...
Annie :P
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No one seems to have any opinion on George Robertson Sr's parents (see p.31).
Here's some data which may help in favour of Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody, who would be my immediate choice if only we could prove they had a son George!
Archibald Robertson married Janet Moody 13 Oct 1878, Greenock, Renfrew.
Known children: John Robertson (1788, Greenock) and Hugh Moody Robertson (1790, Greenock).
Janet Moody - 2 possibles in Greenock, but the probable one was christened on 27 May 1867, dau of Hugh Moody and Janet Howie, who married in Greenock on 21 July 1764. Hugh and Janet also had a son named Hugh Moody, chr. 3 April 1765.
To support this, I found the following quotation from a book published in 1881 at http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/stecit/stecit15.htm
Short biographical notices of the magistrates and merchants of Greenock in 1783
HUGH MOODY, merchant, residing in Cathcart Street. His house is now taken down, and a branch of the Royal Bank built on its site. He is represented by his great-grandson, Archibald Robertson, cashier, Royal Bank, Glasgow
Note - the ggrandson would be a grandson of the Archibald who married Janet Moody, and is not someone we have already identified.
Rambler
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1851
Well - it's Janet and Archibald with no birth dates !!!
Name Janet Robertson
Age –
Occupation House Keeper
BirthPlace SCT. Edinburgh Borough
Liverpool Ward, Parish or Township Gt.George & Pitt Street Ecclesiastical Parish
Name Archibald Robertson
Age –
Occupation Retired Block Mkr./Carver
BirthPlace SCT. Edinburgh Borough
Liverpool Ward, Parish or Township Gt.George & Pitt Street Ecclesiastical Parish
Annie :P :P
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Just in case there's a link back into Liverpool with the Robertsons, this is from the 1832 Poll Book:
ROBERTSON, ALEXANDER, CARVER, KENT SQUARE, LIVERPOOL, S & D,
ROBERTSON, ARCHIBALD, MEDICAL DOCTOR, GREAT GEORGE'S STREET, LIVERPOOL, S & D,
ROBERTSON, ARTHUR, BOOK KEEPER, BROWN STREET, LIVERPOOL, S & D,
ROBERTSON, J AMES, MERCHANT, MILES STREET, TOXTETH PK., S & D,
ROBERTSON, ROBERT, COW KEEPER, FINCH STREET, LIVERPOOL, E & T
(The final initials refer to the candidate each voted for:
Mr.EWART 4,931
Lord SANDON 4,260
Mr. THORNELY 4,096 S
S ir Howard DOUGLAS 3,249
Paul
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Paul
Is that Mr Ewart - my William Ewart Gladstone born in Rodney Street who's mother was a Robertson ??? ??? ???
Sorry Mary - I couldn't resist :P :P :P
Annie
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I think I may have Alice and children in 1861, although whose wife she is, I haven't the faintest idea.
RG9/293 Mile End Old Town Western Folio 177 Page 12
18 Wm Street North
Alice Johnson Wife Mar 23 Lancashire Liverpool
Charles Son 3 Scholar " "
Jessie daur 2 " " "
Alice M " 6 months Middlesex Stepney.
So it looks as though the Alice Lou(n)sdale and Charles with son Hugh aren't ours but despite the ages being a bit out (quite a lot in the case of mother Alice) I think we have something here with the birth places, although can't find a marriage for them.
Just to take note, next door, also with husband missing is an Elizabeth Moore a sugar baker's wife - just thinking back to Colin and co.
Can I have an opinion please?
Annie, we have to be proud of our locals :P :P
Mary
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Some Molison oddments not previously posted (I think!):
Thomas Viall Cornell - husband of Eliza Wilson Molison - b. c1851, Wethersfield, Essex, son of Joseph Cornell and Matilda Viall. (Joseph m. Matilda Dec qtr 1840, Risbridge.) Thomas is recorded as curate of Fawley, Herefordshire in Littlebury's Directory and Gazetteer of Herefordshire, 1876-7.
On the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site, I found this:
Capt. William Strachan Molison, DFC and bar, Royal Artillery. Died 28 March 1945, aged 30. Son of William James Molison and Hilda Maria Molison of Sanderstead, Surrey. Buried in Reichswald Forest War Cemetery.
Alexander Strachan Molison had 2 sons named William James - one by each wife(!). The younger one was born in 1871, and was still unmarried in 1901, so is probably the one referred to here.
I've posted a Molison summary at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.0.html for anyone who wants to follow up this line.
Rambler
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Is this one of our William James Mollisons then?
Death - 1995 Petersfield Hampshire
Registered April 95,
Age 79
DOB 15/08/1916
30C 160
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I don't know - we haven't positively identified a William James Molison b. 1915. He would be contemporary with the war casualty William Strachan Molison.
Rambler
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Is this the banking Archibald or a relative of his ???
1881
Name John C. ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 51 Occupation Financial Agent Birthplace Edinburgh, Scotland Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London, Middlesex
Name Dora A. ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 44 Occupation – Birthplace Glasgow, Scotland Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London, Middlesex
Name Julia H. ROBERTSON Relationship Daur Condition U Gender F Age 19 Occupation – Birthplace Dundee, Scotland Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London, Middlesex
Name Archibald C. ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 18 Occupation Bank Clerk City Birthplace London, Middlesex Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London
Name George WILSON Relationship Boarder Condition W Gender M Age 50 Occupation Civil Engineer Birthplace Leeds, York Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London, Middlesex
Name Margaret HUSSEY Relationship Boarder Condition W Gender F Age 72 Occupation Fund Holder Birthplace Winchelsea, Sussex Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London, Middlesex
Name Annie M. HOWARD Relationship Visitor Condition U Gender F Age 12 Occupation Scholar Birthplace London, Middlesex Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London, Middlesex
Name Amelia D. BATTEN Relationship Serv Condition U Gender F Age 30 Occupation Cook Domestic Serv Birthplace Newbury, Berkshire Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London, Middlesex
Name Ellen BRANDON Relationship Serv Condition U Gender F Age 18 Occupation Housemaid Domestic Serv Birthplace London, Middlesex Address 5 Heathfield Gardens, London, Middlesex
Annie
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Is this a *possible* for the marriage of George Robinson our sailmaker and Mary ?, born Paisley:
IGI, submitted entry:
Marriage of George Robertson on 9 March 1819 at Middle Paisley, Paisley, Renfrew
to
Mary DOUGLAS?
Paul
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I thought that question had been asked before with a couple of others, but my head is a bit befuddled to find the page, I remember wondering that maybe somebody with good Scottish geographical knowledge could tell us whether it would be near Port of Glasgow and so settle the matter.
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1897 National Burial Index ( Suffolk ?)
Think this could be the death of son of John Robertson and Augusta Jane Molison?
George Douglas ROBERTSON Date 3 Oct 1897 Aged 27 Place Hoxne Description St Peter & St Paul Denomination Anglican County code SFK
Annie
Wait - I think I'm 10 years off - aren't I ???
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Is this a *possible* for the marriage of George Robinson our sailmaker and Mary ?, born Paisley:
IGI, submitted entry:
Marriage of George Robertson on 9 March 1819 at Middle Paisley, Paisley, Renfrew
to
Mary DOUGLAS?
Paul
This has been suggested as the most likely prospect - Douglas comes up as a family name in later geneartions, and there is a christening for Mary Douglas (dau of Colin Douglas and Elizabeth Buchanan) in Paisley, Renfrew on 28 Sep 1797. This fits the census info we have for George's wife Mary.
Rambler
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Would a "Word" document help anybody? I'm willing to do the copy and pasting and it would be searchable, surely it will be smaller than the pdf file already suggested?
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Could Charles be George's brother ( the one married to Mary b. Paisley 1798 ) ?
1881
Name Charles ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 80 Occupation Retired Master Mariner Birthplace Scotland Address 18 Berkley St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Isabella ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 80 Occupation – Birthplace Scotland Address 18 Berkley St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Name Kate MORRIS Relationship Serv Condition U Gender F Age 18 Occupation Dom Birthplace Liverpool Address 18 Berkley St, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Annie
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A response from The Oracle about the 1851 look up request:
Hi
Find this for you Robertson Colin D 27
Robertson Elizabeth J 27
Robertson George 1
Living in the Poplar bow area
Hope it help you Sue
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We only seem to have found about 7 blood relatives of Allan so far although we've got a lot of stuff on his wife's family (including the exciting Barbados connection).
Anyone have any bright ideas on how we can follow Allan's 20th century line? Does the lady that researched the Muirs (I think she was a decendent of Reginald Lucock Muir) have anything on the family from the 20th century that might be relevant?
I think those who are working on Allan's paternal grandparents are pretty close to a breakthrough but wouldn't it be nice to be able to trace the line forwards in time too and maybe find some living relatives (obviously we'd have to ask permission before publishing their details)?
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Hi all
Between shopping ;D went into the local R.O. to look for birth of Charles M Robertson (1853). No trace ???
Searched fiche 1851 to 1854 no Charles M Robertson - very odd, although some of the fiche are very difficult to read ::)
Susan
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editted to rethink :(
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Thanks for the tree Al, I love seeing a diagram, helps a lot.
Although nobody has yet responded whether they think the Johnsons I found in 1861 are Charles wife Alice, it seems as though it could well be the family, so I'll be trying to continue these through 1881-1901 and see what we come up with.
Since Allan returned to Liverpool to die it could well be that he came back to family left behind when he went to America.
I think somebody already has GenesReunited covered on this point and a tentative enquiry has been made to a John Robertson who claims his grandfather was a ship chandler.
Being in the Liverpool area there is one place where we suggest advertising to people when they are searching for people who may still be alive and that is on the Liverpool Echo/Daily Post site, an ex pats/reuniteds column. But I think we really need to try to get a little bit closer to 1901 with our searches before we do that, Allan hasn't been found yet so maybe one of George's descendents or if anybody could find CLAUDE!!!
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Returning to the 1861 entry for Mary Robertson, widow of George senior and the family which included James allan's father:
I've been checking on the visitors who were from Scotland hoping for some family connection to give us some clues.
Jane Eleanor Fielding was married age 29 b Glasgow
Janet Buchanan L Evering? unmarried no age b Glasgow
Jane Eleanora Leckie Ewing married Thomas M Fielding at Kippen Stirling in 1856 (parish record from Scotlandspeople)
She was born 3 Feb 1832 and chr 8 March 1832 at Barony Lanark, daughter of William Leckie Ewing and Eleanora McFarlane.
William Leckie Ewing and Eleanora McFarlane married 28 June 1826 in Edinburgh parish. Other children were:
Robert Chr 18 Oct 1830
John Leckie 28 May 1833
Helen Catherine 21 June 1837
Isabella Leckie 5 Oct 1829
all chr at Barony.
William Leckie Ewing was chr 3 June 1798 at Kippen Stirling, son of Robert Ewing and Isobella Leckie. Other child found was:
Janet Buchanan Ewing b. 30 Jan 1796 chr 13 Feb 1796 Kippen.
A Janet Buchanan Ewing married John McFarlan 10 Nov 1819 at Campsie Stirling.
the Janet Buchanan L Evering? in 1861 could be William Leckie Ewing's sister hence Jane Fielding's aunt??
William Leckie Ewing and Janet Buchanan Ewing's mother was Isabella Leckie. Her parents could have been William Leckie and Janet Buchanan or Andrew Leckie and Agnes Buchanan.
William Leckie Ewing's wife Eleanora McFarlane was chr 11 Dec 1801 Edinbugh, parents, John McFarlane and Christian Wardrob!
Unfortunately no obvious connection to our Robertsons but the same tradition of passing maternal surnames down. As a teacher and mother of kids doing exams I frequently use Leckie and Leckie notes on Scottish examination subjects. ;)
Heads swimming, back to the Robertsons.
Jo
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Poor Jo, I'd share my bottle of paracetomol except it seems to be empty. But a nice bit of research there.
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Although nobody has yet responded whether they think the Johnsons I found in 1861 are Charles wife Alice, it seems as though it could well be the family, so I'll be trying to continue these through 1881-1901 and see what we come up with.
There's someone by the name of Johnson on the Ancestry message boards who has a Claude and Kezia in their tree. Could this be the missing link that ties the May and June challenges together? ;D
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Excuse me Mary - are you and Paul E related ??? ??? ??? ???
Claude will be found - but he's playing games with me........ :P
I swear I've been everywhere - sounds like a good title for a song huh ??? ??? ??? ???
but I'll get him..............................
Annie
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Although nobody has yet responded whether they think the Johnsons I found in 1861 are Charles wife Alice, it seems as though it could well be the family, so I'll be trying to continue these through 1881-1901 and see what we come up with.
There's someone by the name of Johnson on the Ancestry message boards who has a Claude and Kezia in their tree. Could this be the missing link that ties the May and June challenges together? ;D
There's also a Kezia Best living at 8 Claude Road Camberwell in the 1881 census. Things are just getting stranger and stranger ;D
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Check out http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/100men/gm34.htm
Very interesting article from 'memoirs and portraits of 100 Glasgow men' on William Leckie Ewing father to Jane Fielding visiting our Robertsons.
Must go and make my boys some food; makes a change me hogging the computer. they just think I'm mad ;)
Jo
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There's an old Beatles song that goes "I'll get you, I'll get you in the end, Yes I will, I'll get you in the eeeennnnd Oh Yeah!!!" Paul always thought Kezia and Claude had eloped together!
Anyway I'm continuing with Charles children in 1881 and I think I mentioned previously that Lilias had been farmed out to a school in Cheshire Rock Lane, Tattenhall RG11/3552 Chester Tattenhall Folio 111 Page 30 the Head is Jane Birch.
Well here are three more of them in Ockham School, Kingsley, Hampshire
Head Anna M Lees
Agnes Robertson – 14 (about 1867) Herts Bushey Scholar
Alice Robertson – 29 (about 1852) London Middlesex – this actually says 20 not 29 Assistant Matron
Helen Robertson – 17 (about 1864) London Middlesex Scholar
Still working on Charles Jnr and Jessie, but it would seem as though Charles and Alice have either popped their clogs or gone abroad? So still keep your eyes out for any emigrants please while you are looking for others.
Mary
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Just to let you know that Michael the descendent of Alexander Strachan Molison has sent me a 19 page word doc which is the descendency of Alexander.
To post or not to post?
I'm not trying to tease :-\ just don't know if it spoils the game a bit?
I'll go through it and post stuff that I don't think we have got.
Is that the best thing to do?
Pam
;D
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The theory of Alexander's birth from Michael...
We do not know who his mother was, but we certainly know his father to be William Maule Molison.
He was the first born of his father who was 21 years old when ASM was born, and William’s next child was some 12 years later.
ASM's closest association was with James Molison his younger brother. It is likely that ASM was illegitimate. It is impossible to prove, but the absence of an earlier marriage strongly suggests this to be the case.
Also, it was common to simply add the father's surname at a later date. The absence of any Strachans in the family up until that time, and it being a common name around Aberdeen, the mother of ASM was probably a Strachan, and the Molison was added later
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Oh this gets exciting, I think I would prefer just to know if we have gone majorly wrong anywhere.... and to know if there are any preferably Robertsons to be found nearer the 1900+ era.
I also have some news, but I'll wait a little while until Pam has done rather than plonking it in the middle. (half an hour be enough?)
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Don't think there is a lot of Robertson info here. But there are pages of cracking info on the voyages of ASM (as I shall call him)
Here's ASMs death details.
3 Feb 1878 ASM dies. Was 76 when he died, fathering a daughter in his last year of life! Buried at Nunhead cemetery in Sth. London in a family vault with his wife Sarah Ann Shores, son William James Molison, and others. Grave 15029.
PS if it is in blue it is lifted directly from Michael's research.
Pam
;D
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From ASM's Will...
Alexander Strachan Molison of Morant Cottage, Blackheath Rd, Greenwich, Kent, Esq, died 1 October 1878.
Probate of the will granted 19 October 1878 for an estate under 4000 pounds.
...'Appoints my son-in-law Rev. Thomas Vial Cornell of Sussex as Executor.
Will goes on to mention 'my wife Sarah Ann Molison, my daughters Augusta Jane Robertson, the widow of John Robertson.
Mary Marshall Robertson, widow of James Robertson.
Eliza Wilson Cornell wife of Rev. Thomas Vial Cornell, my son Duncan Dunbar Molison who married Justina Louisa Shores, my daughter Louisa Helen Molison, my son William James Molison.'
This helps place the deaths of the Robertson boys a bit.
P ;D
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From the will of Sarah Ann Molison ...
The details are ...
'Sarah Ann Shores of Fairlawn Elgin Road in the County of Surrey, widow, formerly of 79 Bensham Manor Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey died on the 25th day of November 1908 at Fairlawn aforesaid, and Probate being granted to William James Molison of Fairlawn aforesaid, stockbroker, son of ASM and one of the executors.
Dated 8 January 1909. Value of estate 245 pounds and ninepence, value of personal estate 141 pounds fifteen shillings and ninepence.
More About SARAH ANN SHORES:
Burial: Nunhead Cemetery, London
Fact 1: 28 Nov 1908, INTERRED GRAVE 15029, NUNHEAD CEMETERY, LONDON
This is posted for completeness,
I feel such a fraud that I'm not finding any of this under my own endeavours!
Pam
;D
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Don't worry, take the credit, you made the contact, its just such lovely stuff.
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Children of ALEXANDER MOLISON and AUGUSTA MARSHALL are:
2. i. AUGUSTA JANE MOLISON, b. 15 Sep 1833, STEPNEY ST. DUNSTAN, LONDON; d. Aft. 1881.
ii. ALEXANDER JOSEPH MOLISON, b. 03 Jul 1836, STEPNEY, LONDON; d. 23 Feb 1867, BOMBAY, INDIA; m. SUSAN CATHARINE ROTHWELL, 23 May 1865, MALEW, ISLE OF MAN, ENGLAND; b. 08 Sep 1839, Castletown, Isle of Man.
From the IGI...
SUSAN CATHARINE ROTHWELL:
Susannah Catherine ROTHWELL
Christening: 8 Sep 1839
Saint Marys, Castletown, Isle Of Man, England
Parents:
Father: John ROTHWELL
Mother: Elizabeth Isabella
Elizabeth Isabella LOONEY
Marriage: 11 Sep 1832
Malew, Isle Of Man, England
John Thomas Rothwell chr 4 Jan 1857
Saint Barnabas, Douglas, Isle Of Man, England
Parents:
Father: James ROTHWELL
Mother: Elizabeth Isabella LOONEY
Marriage: 21 Dec 1850 to John Rothwell
Maughold, Isle Of Man, England
Next post is "our" lot - but it is very different and a bit worrying!
Pam
???
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Michael has a completely different theory on Mary...
iii. MARY JEAN MARSHALL MOLISON, b. 07 Oct 1838, St DUNSTAN, STEPNEY; d. Aft. 1881; m. JAMES ROBERTSON; b. Abt. 1835, Wapping, Middlesex, England; d. Abt. 1877.
Notes for MARY JEAN MARSHALL MOLISON:
From the 1881 census comes the following entries. As Mary's husband had died, there is the suspicion she married again, and these entries must be them. Reason is Dunbars still had a substantial wine and spirit business and a great deal of continuity in employees. Lee was an employee.
Mary ROBERTSON Household
Birth Year <1838>
Birthplace London, Middlesex, England
Age 43
Occupation
Marital Status M <Married>
Head of Household Aubrey LEE
Relation Wife
Dwelling 10 Holden Ter
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
She was living with;
Aubrey LEE Household
Birth Year <1852>
Birthplace Fulham, Middlesex, England
Age 29
Occupation Wine Merchants Manager
Marital Status U <Unmarried>
Head of Household Aubrey LEE
Relation Manager (Head)
Dwelling 10 Holden Ter
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Household:
Aubrey LEE Manager (Head) U Male 29 Fulham, Middlesex, England Wine Merchants Manager
Joseph SMELLWOOD Servt U Male 20 Birmingham, Warwick, England Inn Merchants Assistant
Mary ROBERTSON Wife M Female 43 London, Middlesex, England
Eliza COLLIER Serv U Female 22 Nottinghill, Middlesex, England General Servant
Notes for JAMES ROBERTSON:
He died before his father in law in 1878.
In the notes of Leila Shores she mentions Mary Robertson and David Robertson. Does not say if they were husband and wife, or brother and sister. David was a Mincing Lane tea merchant and an artist. Pulbrook, Robertson and Co, 2 Mincing Lane, London, E.C.,
They had a son amongst other children. The son Malcolm went to India in the Indian Civil Service, and is said to have been killed in France in the 1914-1918 war.
A difficult family to follow up as there is no record in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for a Robertson that even remotely fits Malcolm as having been killed in France.
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And the children continue...
iv. ALEXANDER MOLISON, b. 09 Aug 1841.
Notes for ALEXANDER MOLISON:
1871 Deaf And Dumb Institute Swansea
Alexander MOLISON head unm 31 m master of school Scotland
v. DUNCAN DUNBAR MOLISON, b. 04 Nov 1845, 9 WARKWORTH TCE, LIMEHOUSE, LONDON, ENGLAND; d. Aft. 1912; m. JUSTINA LOUISA SHORES, 18 Jul 1872, PARISH CHURCH, STEPNEY, LONDON, ENGLAND; b. 1849, Worthing, Sussex, England; d. 1932.
Notes for DUNCAN DUNBAR MOLISON:
A registered Captain with Lloyds Certificate no. 29.670 first issued London 1869.
At time of marriage both lived in Stepney, he was described as a Master Mariner, and she as a spinster
At time of death of his father is shown as witness to the death and DDM living at 186 Brixton Rd, London.
The story is that they eloped because she was under age. However she was 23 when they married.
One of the witnesses on the Certificate Ithiel Price is unknown, but the other certainly is a long serving member of the ASM household- Maria Milton Benoist.
Maria was the witness to the death in 1851 of John Strachan Molison, Duncan's brother. She lived at 6 Warkworth Terrace, Limehouse, which was the Molison home. They were perhaps estranged from their parents. No issue of the marriage.
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vi. ELIZA WILSON MOLISON, b. 21 Sep 1848, St Dunstan, Stepney; d. Aft. 1881; m. THOMAS VIAL CORNELL, REV, Bef. 1878; b. 1851, Wethersfield, Essex, England; d. Aft. 1881.
Notes for ELIZA WILSON MOLISON:
The Wilson is a family name. Her aunt married a Wilson. The family connection was quite strong, as Robert James Molison put his address at a Dr. Wilson in Huntley Scotland when he was at University in Aberdeen.
vii. JOHN STRACHAN MOLISON, b. Oct 1850, 6 Warkworth Terrace, Limehouse, London; d. 08 Aug 1851, 6 Warkworth Tce, Limehouse, London.
Notes for JOHN STRACHAN MOLISON:
Died at 6 Warkworth Terrace, Limehouse of Hydroencephalus which he had had for 15 days. Witness and present at the death was A.M Benoist who gave her address as 6 Warkworth Terrace, Limehouse.
More About JOHN STRACHAN MOLISON:
Cause of Death: HYDROENCEPHALUS
Medical Information: 10 MONTHS OLD.
Children of ALEXANDER MOLISON and SARAH SHORES are:
3. viii. WILLIAM JAMES4 MOLISON, b. 1871; d. 1958, 'STANWAY' PURLEY OAKS ROAD, SANDERSTEAD, SURREY.
ix. LOUISA HELEN MOLISON, b. 1878; d. 1942
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Generation No. 2
2. AUGUSTA JANE MOLISON was born 15 Sep 1833 in STEPNEY ST. DUNSTAN, LONDON, and died Aft. 1881. She met JOHN ROBERTSON 16 Mar 1858 in PARISH CHURCH, BROADWATER by WORTHING, SUSSEX, ENGLAND, son of GEORGE ROBERTSON. He was born 1835 in Wapping, Middlesex, England, and died Bef. 01 Oct 1878.
Notes for AUGUSTA JANE MOLISON:
Lived in Worthing at the time of her marriage. A spinster. Her husband was from Hampstead, Middlesex. The witnesses were both Robertson by name and likely to be her sister in law Janet, and her brother in law.
George ROBERTSON Head W Male 61 Wapping, Middlesex, England Ship Chandler
Charles M. ROBERTSON Son U Male 25 Limehouse, Middlesex, England Ship Chandler
Augusta J. ROBERTSON Sister In Law W Female 47 Stepney, Middlesex, England
Augusta ROBERTSON Niece U Female 20 Bromley, Middlesex, England
Mary D. ROBERTSON Niece U Female 16 Bromley, Middlesex, England Scholar
Margaret ROBERTSON Niece U Female 4 Camberwell, Surrey, England
HIGH PARK STREET, PARKHILL ROAD and SOUTH HILL ROAD 8
High Park was the highest point in Toxteth Park and, in the l8th century, because of its salubrity, became a popular summer resort for Liverpool folk. The area was often referred to as `the Richmond of the Mersey'. Parkhill and South Hill are names relating to High Park.
I've included the bits we already have i.e. the census for familiarity.
P
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Continued...
Notes for JOHN ROBERTSON:
In marine service trades like his father. His father was one of the sailmakers who worked in the sail loft at Dunbar Wharf. Married into the Molison side of the family. Died early and his wife Augusta ended up living in Liverpool with her father in law- the father of John in the 1881 census. There were 3 girls of the marriage, details of whom are very scant indeed. John and Augusta moved to Worthing at some time, and lived there for a while at least. He probably died here. It was popular to move to a seaside location if you had TB- a disease that was rampant then.
The town of Worthing built up around the village of Broadwater, whose church St Mary's, became the parish church of Worthing, until 1893. The town began to expand when sea-bathing became popular in the 19th century. In 1861, the population of Broadwater (including Worthing) was 5,970. In 1724 there had been only about 300 inhabitants. This number had grown to 1,018 by 1801.
The following entries from a bankrupt estate sale may be relevant to this family. The sale took place in 1826.
A ship’s chandler in 1851 was a tradesman who dealt in ropes, canvas, and other equipment need to fit out a sailing ship.
Douglas and Robertson, Ship Chandler, Limehouse 226 0 0
George Robertson, Limehouse Ship Ch. 200 0 0
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3. WILLIAM JAMES4 MOLISON (ALEXANDER STRACHAN3, WILLIAM MAULE2, JAMES1) was born 1871, and died 1958 in 'STANWAY' PURLEY OAKS ROAD, SANDERSTEAD, SURREY. He married HILDA MARIA MILNES, daughter of WILLIAM MILNES. She was born 1877 in Lee, Kent, England.
Notes for WILLIAM JAMES MOLISON:
William James Molison, of Sanderstead, Surrey. A stockbroker.
Burial: Nunhead Cemetery, London
Fact 1: 24 Sep 1958, ASHES INTERRED GRAVE 15029 NUNHEAD CEMETERY, LONDON
Children of WILLIAM MOLISON and HILDA MILNES are:
i. MARGARET JUSTINA HELEN5 MOLISON, b. 1913; d. 1985, Isles of Scilly, England; m. (1) VIVIAN RUPERT DALBIAC BORMAN, Abt. 1937, England; b. 1910; m. (2) ERIC WELLINGTON GROSE, 1954; b. 1911; d. Aft. Jul 1990.
ii. WILLIAM STRACHAN MOLISON, CAPT, DFC AND BAR, b. 1915; d. 28 Mar 1945, KILLED IN ACTION FAC, RHINE CROSSING, GERMANY.
Notes for WILLIAM STRACHAN MOLISON, CAPT, DFC AND BAR:
In Memory of Captain WILLIAM STRACHAN MOLISON, DFC and Bar, Royal Artillery, attd. 622 A.O.P. Sqdn., Royal Air Force who died aged 30 on Wednesday, 28th March 1945.
MOLISON was the son of William James Molison and Hilda Maria Molison, of Sanderstead, Surrey.
Remembered with honour REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY, Germany.
In Memory of
WILLIAM STRACHAN MOLISON DFC and Bar
Captain
109759
Royal Artillery
attd. 622 A.O.P. Sqdn., Royal Air Force
who died on
Wednesday, 28th March 1945. Age 30.
Additional Information: Son of William James Molison and Hilda Maria Molison, of Sanderstead, Surrey.
Commemorative Information
Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY, Germany
Grave Reference/
Panel Number: 60. C. 13.
Location: The cemetery is 5 kilometres south west of Kleve. From Kleve take the Hoffmannallee from the town centre, which becomes the Materbornerallee. This road enters Reichswald Forest and becomes the Grunewaldstrasse. Follow the directions for Gennep, and on entering Reichswald Forest the cemetery is situated 500 metres on the left.
AOP stands for Air Observation Post, and they were the forward air controllers and observers.
The only bits I've missed out are the voyages which I'll post seperately at a later date.
I really think it would be a great idea to join up all the great finds and work done by you guys with the research of others and host a simple webpage consolidating what appears a fascinating family.
Just one of the ASM voyage incidents...
15 April 1840 Capt of 'Blenheim' at a disturbance of natives in New Zealand. Molison was anchored in the Bay of Islands. In the late afternoon trouble was brewing ashore with the natives, and Hobson asked for help. Molison quietly moved his ship to a position where his broadside guns commanded several of the gathering places of the natives, and dropped a stern anchor as well so he could bring his guns to bear regardless of tide. The quiet message was not lost, and the disturbances quietened and then ceased. For this practical effort, he was commended by Hobson.
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Wonderful info.
What was the mention of Robert James Molison in the notes for Eliza Wilson Molison? Can't see/remember who he is.
Intrigued by refs to Aberdeen. Only been up here since 1992, stayed at Huntley for a couple of weeks when first arrived - fair commute to get into the University even nowadays.
Jo
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All I can say is WOW ::)
How cool is that ? but could you please make Paul and Mary happy - and see if Claude is there............. ::) ::)
Seriously - we've disregarded some of this information -I know I have - I have 23 pages of info that I didn't think was relevant - and I guess 7 pages were right !! I'm shocked - but this is so great because we were nearly there.......
Annie
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So on the basis of Pam's lovely posts above, should I now ask Sedona to send me 50 pages of Muirs & Kings from Barbados and do the same thing that Pam did? I enjoyed reading it BTW.
There are still brick walls, you know - James Muir for one.
I havent received any reply from John Robertson.
I know that Mary faxed him. I'm waiting to read if maybe Mary received a reply. ;D
Please advise re the Muir file.
Thanks
BD
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Michael has a completely different theory on Mary...
iii. MARY JEAN MARSHALL MOLISON, b. 07 Oct 1838, St DUNSTAN, STEPNEY; d. Aft. 1881; m. JAMES ROBERTSON; b. Abt. 1835, Wapping, Middlesex, England; d. Abt. 1877.
Notes for MARY JEAN MARSHALL MOLISON:
From the 1881 census comes the following entries. As Mary's husband had died, there is the suspicion she married again, and these entries must be them. Reason is Dunbars still had a substantial wine and spirit business and a great deal of continuity in employees. Lee was an employee.
If Michael's theory is right then Allan's mother was not Mary Marshall Molinson but another Mary. Have we been chasing the wrong line or have I misunderstood?
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Just got back home after choir rehearsal (yes, I do have other interests) and found the last 3 pages...
Perhaps I'm stupid, but I'm very disappointed, because I would have preferred to continue searching ourselves, and now there's nothing left to do... I thought the whole point of the challenge was to build up a genealogy from scratch?
And as far as I can see, if Michael's version of what happened to Mary Marshall Molison after James' death is correct, then Allan didn't exist! ??? ??? ??? Which probably just means that I'm too tired to think straight.
NB I posted my Molison summary BEFORE we had this new info, and I'm not going to update it now, so please don't tell me I've missed out all the essentials.
BD - Post your Muir info if that's what everyone wants.
Rambler
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OK Mary it's your turn - it's been more than half an hour......!!!
Annie
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Ahhh, I'm sorry MR :'(
Now I've read it more (as I was posting the snippets) I think our Mary is the right one and we may be helping Michael more? Though the Lee connection to the Dunbar's is interesting.
Obviously we need to look at both ideas.
Most of the notes on teh new info is IGI & 1881 so the other census info we have may prove or disprove?
Pam
;D
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BD I emailed John Robertson at Jumbrella but as yet no response.
I have been contacted by Sue (The Oracle) in response to EmilySiobahn's post on the London board for an 1851 look up. She sent me a copy of the 1841 census for Bedford Row, Poplar/Bow area Folio 11 Page 10 for a George Robertson age 20, Merchant. BUT on the top of the next page follows Margaret age 30 so I don't know how this would fit in.
Here are the two bits as the copy is terribly bad and I'm not sure I'm reading the writing properly, there seems to be two other people in the house, maybe somebody else can read it. (Bits were bitmaps, which I changed to tiffs and they won't upload, I'll upload them if I can change them to something else)
I also have 1851 for the mysterious Colin and his family with relative John Dale (I'm sure we've had that name mentioned somewhere)
HO107 1555? can't find page and folio number on it
30 Coborn Street, South ?? Walford (maybe) Bow Tower Hamlets
Colin D Robertson Head M 27 Provision Merchant Middlesex Ratcliff
Elizabeth J Wife M 27 " "
George Son 1 " Bow
John C Dale Brother in Law Unm 29 Coal Factor Clerk " Ratcliff
Harriett Smith Servant Unm 26 Devonshire Colebrook
Francis E Millington " " 23 Norfolk Lymm Regis
Although the first George matches "our" George born 1820 the presence of Margaret age 30 makes me doubt. Sue is going to look again to see if she can find anything in 1851.
Mary
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I agree that our Allan shouldn't exist, but then we're working backwards from him and maybe Michael worked around him, so therefore Michael's information is wrong and ours is right and we should continue :P :P :P
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OK try these from the 1841, transcription as to George's age and occupation apparently came from the index, but maybe we'd like to decide for ourselves.
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Just got back home after choir rehearsal (yes, I do have other interests) and found the last 3 pages...
Perhaps I'm stupid, but I'm very disappointed, because I would have preferred to continue searching ourselves, and now there's nothing left to do... I thought the whole point of the challenge was to build up a genealogy from scratch?
BD - Post your Muir info if that's what everyone wants.
Rambler
No you're right MR. I wont ask for the Muir file. We still need something to search for. :)
It might also be an idea to post a sticky about rules of the challenge. Something like the following - if anyone makes contact with someone who has information about the family being researched, then we cannot post their files, but just ask them to confirm whether or not a name or connection or other detail is correct. And find any brickwalls they may still have.
The first challenge (in April) we did with Mr Bland (Abraham & Lionel I think) actually worked out very well.
BD
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I think Jane Cribb and Esther Dixon
and I think maybe live-in help!!
Annie
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Alright, I get the message :-\
I don't think it gives us that much actually. Not that it isn't a great body of work. It is confirming what we've done more than telling us an answer. AND since it is Allan that is our subject it has thrown up a great puzzle.
Which Mary is his mam???
P ;D
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Well my opinion is - that we still have plenty to do and when Pam posted that stuff - it was great to see that in some areas we were doing Ok
and as we didn't have anybody who came forward to moderate us - like that guy in April -
think about it - he gave a lot of info to get people back on track..... remember?
I think this will keep us more focused - OK I'll amend that - this will keep ME more focused :P :P :P :P
Annie
PS Look at it this way MR
it'll save on the frazzled nerves a bit -
'cos it's that much less for you to do :P :P :P
And you do do a terrific job !!
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Annie, those names don't mean anything to our search do they? perhaps either lodgers or servants.
Jonathan looked up Colins family in the 1881 census on Page 20 when Elizabeth was a widow.
BD and MR I agree with what was previously proposed, that it is suggested to Sedona to read and maybe make a comment if we have gone seriously wrong, also of course if there is anywhere she was particularly stuck and we could concentrate on that bit.
Just in case it's overlooked the posting I made just before Pam's Novel, gave details of Charles girls all at schools, so please everybody keep a look out for Charles and Alice either deaths or emigrations.
I now have a Word document of the text of this thread so its searchable, if anybody would like a copy please email me.
Mary
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Did I see a Malcolm Robertson mentioned somewhere?
Info. 1891 census RG12/2924 Folio 61 page 9
Jessie M Robertson Mar 25 at home with parents.
Jessie Mary Barclay b liverpool c 1866 (daughter of John Barclay, Manager of Sugar Refiners, Liverpool) married Robert Malcolm Robertson Liverpool 1888.
They had a son Charles Malcolm Robertson b Toxteth 1890.
Hope this doesn't confuse things ???
Susan
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Am I missing something? Surely we have to go with the Mary that was with Allan in the original census reference. There was only a suspicion that she remarried.
Jo
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I agree with Annie - sorry MR! :)
I don't think it does us any harm to have the vast majority of what you geniuses have found confirmed. And if there are any differences with the nw details and what has been found, then they can be teased out.
I have been surprised quite how reluctant outsiders have been to join in this particular Challenge, when we have located a fair share of folk tracing different elements of the families.
When I lay in my bath (its always nice to have an image, isn't it? :)) and conceived of the Rootschat Challenge, I little imagined we would be embarking on such an odyssey as this!
I don't think it spoils it to have alternative research available which confirms - or confounds - what's been found.
This is a fascinating family, isn't it?
Particularly that Claude chappie... ;)
Paul
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:) Hi Guys,
Back on track then, any chance we could see some of the voyages,
or will they be on the new Web page for this thread? 8)
Did I spot a ref to Blackheath, there was a Claude in Blackheath.... ::)
Yes, I did and a ref to Malcolm, his family came from Lanark, so they did. ::)
Gota go soon, have a good night all. Lesanne. ;D
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Lesanne
if you've got Claude you'd better post him
or you're going to be travelling the Oregon Trail Girl!!
Don't be tossing things over your shoulder and then go to bed..... :P :P :P :P
Annie
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;D Hi Annie,
I did post it, years ago, Claude Robertson.
Born Blackheath 15th September ( my dad's birthday)
1869.
Night, Lesanne.
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Lesanne
Our Claude was born in Peckham.................. ::)
you got me all excited for nothing.......
Annie
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I have some Lanarkshire deaths - but I can't hook them up - can you???
most don't have ages - there really isn't too much info - but I hate to throw them away.....!!!
William B ROBERTSON Certificate type Death Cert Relationship Informant aged – Date 17 Aug 1886 Place Shettleston County LKS
Margaret ROBERTSON Certificate type Death Cert Relationship Mother aged d Date 17 Aug 1886 Place Shettleston County LKS
John ROBERTSON Certificate type Death Cert Relationship Subject aged 65 Date 17 Aug 1886 Place Shettleston County LKS
William B ROBERTSON Certificate type Death Cert Relationship Son of Subject aged – Date 17 Aug 1886 Place Shettleston County LKS
Elizabeth ROBERTSON Certificate type Death Cert Relationship Wife aged – Date 17 Aug 1886 Place Shettlestone County LKS
Annie ::)
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Sorry Paul
The obit family aren't ours ...... ??? received an email saying " Sorry !!"
Annie
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I know we were supposed to have a Malcolm in the Indian Civil Service but I found an Archibald in Bombay Civil Service - does that count ???
1881
Archibald David ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 58 Occupation H M Bombay Civil Service School Birthplace East Indies Address 53 Queens Gate, London, Middlesex
Charlotte Henrietta ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 50 Occupation H M Bombay Civil Service School Wife Birthplace East Indies Address 53 Queens Gate, London, Middlesex
Name Henrietta Matilda ROBERTSON Relationship Servant Condition U Gender F Age 28 Occupation H M Bombay Civil Service School Daughter Birthplace East Indies Address 53 Queens Gate, London, Middlesex
Henry KISHUA ? Relationship Servant Condition U Gender M Age 23 Occupation Footman Birthplace Auholt ? (F), Germany Address 53 Queens Gate, London, Middlesex
Name Isabella BARR Relationship Servant Condition U Gender F Age 46 Occupation Cook Birthplace Kilmarnock, Scotland Address 53 Queens Gate, London
Emily Fredericka SEBARD Relationship Servant Condition U Gender F Age 34 Occupation Ladies Maid Birthplace Wurtemburg (F), Germany Address 53 Queens Gate, London, Middlesex
Elizabeth DOWNES Relationship Servant Condition U Gender F Age 36 Occupation House Maid Birthplace Barnock ?, Northampton, Address 53 Queens Gate, London, Middlesex
Agnes CRACKNELL Relationship Servant Condition U Gender F Age 20 Occupation House Maid Birthplace Broomfield, Norfolk, Address 53 Queens Gate, London, Middlesex
Louisa SMITH Relationship Servant Condition U Gender F Age 19 Occupation Kitchen Maid Birthplace London Brompton , London, Middlesex Address 53 Queens Gate, London, Middlesex
Annie
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1881
Emma Millar abt 1828 West Hackney, Middlesex, Sister-in-law
Emma Robertson abt 1819 St Pancras, Middlesex, Wife
Fred Wm Robertson abt 1845 Islington, Middlesex, Son
Henry Ernest Robertson abt 1857 Islington, Middlesex, Son
Herbert Edward Robertson abt 1853 Islington, Middlesex, Son
Jane Douglas Robertson abt 1855 Islington, Middlesex, Daughter
Jas Douglas Robertson abt 1846 Islington, Middlesex, Son
Walter Jordas Robertson abt 1852 Islington, Middlesex, Son
William Robertson abt 1823 Scotland Head
Couple of Douglas' in here :P
Annie
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ROBERTSONs and Visitors
On page 36, JoT posted wonderful information identifying the remaining two Scottish visitors in the 1861 census entry for the household of Mary ROBERTSON (which CatOne had posted on page 28). This Mary ROBERTSON, b Paisley ca 1798 (her maiden name might perhaps have been Mary DOUGLAS) was the widow of George snr and mother of 10 children including her youngest child, "our" Allan's father James.
Just to recap, the visitors were:
Louisa Gelly HAMILTON, unm, 53 b Greenock (on page 29 I posted identifying her - but not any connexion with the ROBERTSONs)
Jane Eleanor M FIELDING, marr, 29, Farmer's wife, b Glasgow
Janet Buchanan L EVERING??, unm, no age given, b Glasgow
JoT, on page 36, has identified Jane as Jane Eleanora Leckie EWING who married Thomas M FIELDING at Kippen Stirlingshire in 1856. She also identified Jane's birth as 3 Feb 1832 and chr 8 March 1832 at Barony Lanarkshire, daughter of William Leckie EWING and Eleanora MCFARLANE - William Leckie EWING (aka Leckie EWING) b Glasgow and chr Kippen in 1798, the son of Robert EWING and Isabella LECKIE.
Jo thought therefore that Janet's surname was surely EWING and that she might have been Jane's aunt (Jane's father, William Leckie EWING, had a sister named Janet Buchanan EWING). However Jo, Janet is listed as unmarried whereas you found a marriage for William's sister.
Jo, I think that Janet is probably Jane's unmarried sister. You listed the children of William Leckie EWING and Eleanora MCFARLANE as:
Isabella Leckie 5 Oct 1829
Robert Chr 18 Oct 1830
Jean Eleanora Leckie 1832
John Leckie 28 May 1833
Helen Catherine 21 June 1837
all chr at Barony.
I've also come across the following further two extracted entries:
Janet Buchanan 1835
Mary Elizabeth 1838
and a (dodgy?) LDS submission
Eleanora 1841 in Dunbartonshire.
So it seems likely that Janet Buchanan EWING b 1835 is the visitor in 1861.
Anyway, the above is a prelude to the next post - a possible
connexion between the Leckie EWING family and ROBERTSON.
JAP
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http://deena.ca/df_cross_lc.html
In Memory of
William Strachan Molison DFC and Bar
Captain
109759
Royal Artillery
attd. 622 A.O.P. Sqdn., Royal Air Force
died Wednesday, 28th March 1945. Age 30.
Additional Information Son of William James Molison and Hilda Maria Molison,
Sanderstead, Surrey.
Cemetery Reichswald Forest War Cemetery Germany
Grave Reference/Panel Number: 60. C. 13.
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'Leckie EWING' visitors and ROBERTSON link
Before posting this information, I can't stress too strongly how common a name ROBERTSON is!
Here is the information.
A Christian Leckie EWING, father William Leckie EWING married an Archibald ROBERTSON in Oct 1849 - extracted entries in both Kippen, Stirlingshire and Barony, Lanarkshire.
Obviously it is very tempting to think that Archibald might be "our" Archibald, 1825 - son of George snr and Mary (Mary from Paisley). It is also tempting to think that this Archibald might be the Greatgrandson of Hugh MOODY mentioned by Manchester Rambler on page 35. But there is nothing to sustain this tempting thought so far apart from the presence of 'Leckie EWING' visitors in the household of "our" George snr's widow Mary (mother of "our" Allan's father, James).
Although - look at the name of their last child!
Archibald ROBERTSON and Christian Leckie EWING had:
John Aeneas b 5 Jul 1850 Barony LKS
Eleanora McFarlane b 13 Jan 1852 Kippen STI (don't know about this one - it's an LDS submission)
Elizabeth Morrison b 13 Dec 1853 Barony LKS
Isabella Lilly b 23 Feb 1858 Milton, Glasgow LKS
William Leckie Ewing b 30 Dec 1850 Milton, Glasgow LKS
Janet Georgina b 9 Apr 1861 Milton, Glasgow LKS
Helen Margaret b 10 Oct 1862 Milton, Glasgow LKS
Archibald b 24 Nov 1863 Milton, Glasgow LKS
Archy Mary Douglas b 30 Mar 1870 Anderston, Glasgow LKS
Could someone who has the full 1881 census CD (i.e. including Scotland) do a lookup for this family? Especially to find the occupation, date of birth, and birthplace of this Archibald ROBERTSON.
And, if the above Archibald is not the Archibald ROBERTSON, cashier at the Royal Bank, Glasgow (grandson of the Archibald ROBERTSON who married Janet MOODY mentioned by Manchester Rambler on page 35), please look for a bank cashier Archibald ROBERTSON.
Fingers crossed!
JAP
PS: I do hope we end up in Kippen, Stirlingshire - a Ggggma of mine (Janet HALL ms MCLAUSE) was born there ca 1815.
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It's Sedona here at 11 pm our time and I need to go to bed but I didn't want you guys to think I forgot about you! In the meantime, here is a brick wall for you: my great grandfather, Reginald Luckock Muir disappeared and the family never knew what happened to him. It seems he did come to the USA, maybe with a brother but no one in the family knows what became of him. There was something about a bad investment in a mine in the United States (having borrowed money from a brother in England). His wife and 3 children (including my grandfather) moved to the USA on their own before he did, I think. We have no info of there ever being a divorce but wonder if he married again anyway and may have had other children. He may have died in the US but we can't find a death record. My father and his brother and sister and I have all tried to find some record of Reginald but can't. He did send money to his family for a little while. I thought my grandfather once told me that at some time he was in Texas but my father said he never heard that. Anyway, there is a tidbit for now. I'm sure I have several more "brick walls", as well as being able to fill in some gaps for you. Good night and thank you, Sedona.
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Wow ... Hi Sedona and welcome - we thought you were a figment of our imagination !!!!
What do you think so far?? - before you go to bed do you have any approx dates? - names etc?
Annie
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Re my post two posts back.
The Archibald ROBERTSON who married Christian Leckie EWING was the cashier at the Glasgow Bank i.e. he is the same person as the grandson of Hugh MOODY.
From:
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/smihou/smihou006.htm
(emphasis added)
Mr. Leckie Ewing was a well known Glasgow merchant, a member of the old firm of Stirling Gordon & Co., and for many years, in connection with his partners, John Gordon of Aikenhead, Charles Stirling of Cadder, and Charles Stirling of Gargunnock, took a leading part in the politics of Glasgow and the West of Scotland on the Tory or Conservative side. He formed one of the deputation who went to Drayton Manor to invite Sir Robert Peel to a public banquet in Glasgow in 1837 on the occasion of his installation as Lord Rector of the University. He died in 1866. His eldest daughter married Archibald Robertson, cashier of the Royal Bank in Glasgow, and another daughter is the wife of Michael Connal, a very well known and esteemed citizen of Glasgow
We still need a census lookup for Archibald's age and birthplace.
JAP
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You worked hard on that one Jap - good going !! I was going to say I had posted on page 35 - a very young Archibald banker :P :P
but it looks like you have that one nailed !!
Annie
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Annie, I have so many names and dates related to this line of my family that I would be up all night! Unless, of course you are only referring to Reginald. He was born 10 may 1870 on a ship off Bombay Harbor, India. I have the name of the ship but will need to look it up. He is the son of Charlotte Maria Ann Wilkinson King and James Muir. He married Jane Ellen (Nellie) Blackett Jennings (who I met as a young child not long before she died in 1955). They married on 29 July 1892 in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Northumberland. He had 3 children with Nellie. Jane Kathleen Muir b. 4 Mar 1893, James Jennings Muir (my grandfather) b. 3 June 1894 Cardiff, Wales (possibly at sea and just registered here), and Charlotte Gertrude Muir b. 21 Nov 1896. I have so much more info but it is getting close to midnight. I have never scanned text before but if my scanner does that, maybe I can scan some of this. I can definitely send more names than you want from Barbados relatives! I do know that my grandfather was somewhere around 11 or 12 when he came here with his mother and sisters. I will write in the daytime next time! Good night and nice to meet you!.
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Reginald Luckock Muir
B: 10 May 1870
British Golden Eagle Bombay Harbor, Bombay, Maharashtra, India
Married
Jane Ellen Jennings
Birth 4 Apr 1868 in Newcastle, Northumberland,
Death 13 Apr 1955 in Oakland, Alameda, CA, USA
Marriage
29 Jul 1892 in Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland
Children
James Jennings Muir M 3 Jun 1894 in Cardiff, Glamorganshire Wales
who married
Alice May Webster
Birth: 19 May 1892 in Holden, Millard, UT, USA
Death: 28 Jun 1965 in Oakland, Alameda, CA, USA
Marriage
10 Jun 1922 in Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, UT, USA
Children Sex Birth
Jim Muir M
Gwendolyn Muir F 1923
James W Muir M 1924
William Jennings Muir M 21 Nov 1927 in Austin, Lander, NV, US
Eugene M Muir M 1928
Melba Muir F 29 Dec 1930 in Oakland, Alameda, CA, USA
Well here's a start
Annie ::)
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Brilliant Jap , my head was swimming with all the leckie Ewing MacFarlane names yesterday and couldn't go much further. Glad the 100 men of Glasgow article was useful.
The Eleanora MacFarlane Robertson LDS entry for daughter of archibald and Christain Leckie Ewing will be named after her maternal grandmother Eleanora McFarlane who married William Leckie Ewing.
Interestingly it looks like George Robertson senior son's George and Archibald were both married in Scotland despite being born in London. (George married Mary Walker Gilkison was it Paisley I can't find my notes on that one) (Archibald married Christian Leckie Ewing in Kippen).
Just to clarify teh Hugh Moody Robertson. He was the son of Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody chr 15 Oct 1790 Greenock. Had a brother John chr 27 July 1788 same place. Still looking for another brother who would be called George and be our George Senior. Hugh Moody would be young Archibald's uncle - unless I've missed something.
Must get ready for work - I'll be late.
Jo
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As you all prefer for "outside" contributions - but if the info is in the IGI and census, we're capable of finding it ourselves, aren't we? I have no objection to an arbitrator to keep us on track, but at only a week into the challenge I was a bit fed up to see all the t's crossed and i's dotted on a family I was enjoying researching...
In the notes of Leila Shores she mentions Mary Robertson and David Robertson. Does not say if they were husband and wife, or brother and sister. David was a Mincing Lane tea merchant and an artist. Pulbrook, Robertson and Co, 2 Mincing Lane, London, E.C.,
They had a son amongst other children. The son Malcolm went to India in the Indian Civil Service, and is said to have been killed in France in the 1914-1918 war.
A difficult family to follow up as there is no record in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for a Robertson that even remotely fits Malcolm as having been killed in France.
Before jumping on every Malcolm Robertson we can find, wouldn't it be better to establish who David and Mary Robertson are? (And if they had a son, I sure hope they were husband and wife, rather than brother and sister! :o :o)
Rambler
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You worked hard on that one Jap - good going !! I was going to say I had posted on page 35 - a very young Archibald banker :P :P
but it looks like you have that one nailed !!
Annie
Annie, your post on page 35 was a family in London of a John C ROBERTSON, b Scotland, with an 18yo son born London - Archibald C ROBERTSON - who happened to be a clerk in a bank. As I said, ROBERTSON is a very very common name. There are thousands of them in the 1881 England & Wales census. How many thousands I don't know because FamilySearch doesn't allow one to go past 5000... I think we really need to stick to ROBERTSON people who we know, or have very good reason to suspect might, have a connexion.
JAP
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JoT and JAP - congratulations on some excellent research! What else can I say? Your marvellous follow-up on Mary Robertson's visitors in the 1861 census ties in beautifully with our other info, and confirms Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody as George Sr's parents, even if we don't have a birth record for George. Along with all Archibald Jr's family!
I'm really impressd! 8)
Rambler
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Brilliant Jap , my head was swimming with all the leckie Ewing MacFarlane names yesterday and couldn't go much further. Glad the 100 men of Glasgow article was useful.
The Eleanora MacFarlane Robertson LDS entry for daughter of archibald and Christain Leckie Ewing will be named after her maternal grandmother Eleanora McFarlane who married William Leckie Ewing.
Interestingly it looks like George Robertson senior son's George and Archibald were both married in Scotland despite being born in London. (George married Mary Walker Gilkison was it Paisley I can't find my notes on that one) (Archibald married Christian Leckie Ewing in Kippen).
Just to clarify teh Hugh Moody Robertson. He was the son of Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody chr 15 Oct 1790 Greenock. Had a brother John chr 27 July 1788 same place. Still looking for another brother who would be called George and be our George Senior. Hugh Moody would be young Archibald's uncle - unless I've missed something.
Must get ready for work - I'll be late.
Jo
Jo, I would never have found the connexion without your terrific research (not to mention MR's wonderful summaries and finds re Janet MOODY who m an Archibald ROBERTSON in 1787, and re Janet MOODY's father Hugh MOODY). It is this Hugh MOODY who is the Ggfather of the Archibald ROBERTSON (who may, or may not, be connected to "our" ROBERTSONs) who married Christian Leckie EWING in 1849.
Incidentally, what I did for a start was look on Hugh Wallis's IGI middle names site for 'Leckie' or 'Ewing' as a middle name connected with the surname ROBERTSON (in Lanarkshire or Renfrewshire). That's how I found William Leckie Ewing ROBERTSON b 30 Dec 1859. There's also an Elizabeth Leckie ROBERTSON b 14 Jul 1850, parents Robert ROBERTSON and Janet FERGUSON who married in 1848 in the Gorbals. I didn't follow them up.
I was aware of the Eleanora McFARLANE connexion but , as it happens, there are a couple of other Archibald ROBERTSONs around at the time (1850s or so) who married ladies, or had children with ladies, named MCFARLANE so ...
George ROBERTSON who married Mary Walker GILKISON in Port Glasgow in 1849 is certainly "our" Allan's uncle - son of George snr and his wife Mary (Mary b Paisley).
But we have yet to prove that Archibald who married Christian Leckie EWING in 1849 (entries in both Kippen and Barony) was the same chap as Archibald, brother of the above George. That's why I'm hoping someone will do a lookup - heaps of people must have the LDS 1881 census CD. Unless and until we get that information we really can't accept this Archibald as "ours".
JAP
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Good morning people,
So much done over night, well done all.
Sun is shining here today.
Have a good one. Lesanne. :D
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Although nobody has yet responded whether they think the Johnsons I found in 1861 are Charles wife Alice, it seems as though it could well be the family, so I'll be trying to continue these through 1881-1901 and see what we come up with.
Mary - I hoped someone else might have an opinion on this, seeing I was the one who suggested it might be a second marriage, so I'm possibly prejudiced! But you certainly convince me. Let's put the 2 families together for the sake of those who haven't followed this line:
1861 census
Charles Mackae Robertson 27, b. Limehouse. Unmarried, living with his mother
In a completely different household, Mary found:
Alice Johnson Wife Mar 23, b. Liverpool no husband listed
Charles Johnson Son 3, b. Liverpool
Jessie Johnson daur 2, b. Liverpool
Alice M Johnson 6 months, b. Stepney
1871 census
Charles M Robertson Head Mar 47 b. London Sailmaker
Alice Robertson Wife Mar 47 b. Liverpool
Charles M Robertson Son 18 b. Liverpool
Jessie Robertson Dau 17 b. Liverpool
Alice M Robertson Dau 14 b. Stepney
Helen E Robertson Dau 10 b. Stepney
Agnes M Robertson Dau 8 b. Hertfordshire
Lilias Robertson Dau 5 b. Stratford.
Although the ages vary a bit, I don't think there's any doubt it's the same family.
Helen E is probably the Ellen Emily Robertson christened by Charles Robertson and Alice in Stepney on 15 May 1864. (IGI)
According to the IGI, Charles McCrae Robertson (sic) and Alice had a son Hugh Moody Robertson in Stepney on 29 Mar 1869. Perhaps he died young, because he doesn't seem to show up on the 1871 census - although I'm willing to be proved wrong!
For completeness, I will add that Mary has found 4 of the children in 1881, but no sign of Charles and Alice:
At a school in Hampshire, Alice Robertson (20) b. London, is assistant matron. Helen Robertson (17), b. London and Agnes Robertson (14) b. Bushey, Herts, are scholars.
Lilias Robertson (13) b. London is at a different school in Cheshire.
NB The ages given in 1881 fit better with 1861 than 1871 - I don't think Charles knew how old his step-chidren were!
OK: I'm going to enter all this in my software - back shortly.
Rambler
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Great work, JAP and JoT!
Incidentally, what I did for a start was look on Hugh Wallis's IGI middle names site for 'Leckie' or 'Ewing' as a middle name connected with the surname ROBERTSON (in Lanarkshire or Renfrewshire). JAP
This Middle Names site sounds interesting - is it different from the general Hugh Wallis site and, if so, could you post a link?
cheers
Paul
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This is Hugh Wallis' site for IGI batch numbers and middle names index:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/index.htm
bearkat
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Roxburghshire Parish and Probate Records Roxburgh Scotland
24 Mar 1793 Alexander Muir and Janet Aymers in Melrose,
a.s.n.
William, baptised 24 Mar 1793 ; w. John Muir, R. Paterson.
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JoT and JAP - congratulations on some excellent research! What else can I say? Your marvellous follow-up on Mary Robertson's visitors in the 1861 census ties in beautifully with our other info, and confirms Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody as George Sr's parents, even if we don't have a birth record for George. Along with all Archibald Jr's family!
I'm really impressd! 8)
Rambler
Rambler, while (like you) I'm confident of the above, I really won't be entirely happy until we find a census entry (1851, 1861, 1871, 1881) which confirms that the Archibald ROBERTSON who married Christian Leckie EWING in 1849 (entries in Kippen and Barony) was the right age and was born in the Limehouse/Stepney/Wapping area.
I'm not really worried about the lack of a birth/christening record for George senior. The Scottish records in the IGI are mainly for the Established (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland. There were umpteen schisms, secessions and re-formings of the Presbyterian Church so it is common to be unable to find records if the people concerned were not members of the Established Church - even though they may well have been members of the Church of Scotland.
There is a good diagram showing this at:
http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/churchhistory.html
Feelings ran high! Here is an extract from:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/scottish_life8.htm
' A worthy old Seceder used to ride from Gargunnock to Buchlyvie every Sabbath to attend the Burgher kirk. One day as he rode past the parish kirk of Kippen, the elder at the plate accosted him, "I’m sure, John, it’s no’ like the thing to see you ridin’ in sic a doonpour o’ rain sac far by to thae Seceders. Ye ken the mercifu’ man is mercifu’ to his beast. Could ye no’ step in by?" "Weel," said John, "I wadna care sae muckle about stablin’ my beast inside, but it’s anither thing mysel’ gain’ in." '
JAP
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A likely entry for Alice Johnson's birth from Free BMD:
Dec qtr 1859 - JOHNSON Alice Mary Stepney 1c 514
Also a rather dubious possibility for Lilias Robertson:
Mar qtr 1868 - ROBERTSON Lilies Mile End 1c 614
Rambler
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Son of Reginald Luckock Muir
World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918
Name - James Jennings Muir
Age - 23
Home address - Logan Utah
Birthplace - Cardiff Wales - American subject
Birth Date - 3 Jun 1894
Present trade - Ranch hand
Employer - Chas O' Bannon
Address - Cokeville
County - Lincoln
State - Wyoming
Dependents - Mother
note - missing one finger
Dated - June 5th 1917
Tall - Medium build - blue eyes - fair hair
Roll 2022241
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JoT and JAP - congratulations on some excellent research! What else can I say? Your marvellous follow-up on Mary Robertson's visitors in the 1861 census ties in beautifully with our other info, and confirms Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody as George Sr's parents, even if we don't have a birth record for George. Along with all Archibald Jr's family!
I'm really impressd! 8)
Rambler
Rambler, while (like you) I'm confident of the above, I really won't be entirely happy until we find a census entry (1851, 1861, 1871, 1881) which confirms that the Archibald ROBERTSON who married Christian Leckie EWING in 1849 (entries in Kippen and Barony) was the right age and was born in the Limehouse/Stepney/Wapping area.JAP
I quite agree that it's best to err on the side of caution, but shall we say we now have a good working hypothesis? Certainly with the work you've done, no one can accuse you of jumping to conclusions!
I'm not really worried about the lack of a birth/christening record for George senior. The Scottish records in the IGI are mainly for the Established (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland. There were umpteen schisms, secessions and re-formings of the Presbyterian Church so it is common to be unable to find records if the people concerned were not members of the Established Church - even though they may well have been members of the Church of Scotland.
Don't tell me about non-conformists! Ggrandfather was a (supposedly) excommunicated Catholic turned vaguely Anglican, while half the rest of my ancestors were Methodists, including a bunch from the Countess of Huntingdon's Connection.... Records? What records?? ;D
But that's beside the point.... Let's hope someone out there has access to the census records we need for that final confirmation.
By the way, not having any Scottish ancestry myself, I was suprised to find that Archibald was a relatively common name there - I'd never connected it with Scotland before.
Rambler
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1861
John F Muir age 16 b. 1845
Archibald M Muir age 14 b. 1847
both born East Indies
both pupils
Rugby School
Warickshire
Picked out the two boys - long listing on census
Annie
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Do we have the details of George and Mary Robertson from 1851 yet?
Oracle has found a George and Mary at 1Providence place:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=63406.new#new
which fits with the address from the PO directory.
If we have them already in 1851 can someone add a post there that we don't need them anymore...I"ve completely lost track with this all at the moment.
Emily :)
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Oracle has found them in 1841 now I think.....and there is a Colin in the family (or at least living in the same place, I guess 1841 doesn't actually give relationships)
Apparently in 1841 living with a George and Mary Robertson at 1 Providence place are:
George 21 Collin17 hugh12 Agnes10 Charles 8 john6 Mary3 Janet1
I think this fits in with the births found in the IGI?
Apologies if we have this already ten pages ago, but I've not had time to read everything today.
Emily
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Some bits of trivia re the LECKIE and EWING people in Scotland - particularly William Leckie (known as Leckie) EWING and his family. I see that a hyphenated surname LECKIE-EWING appears today in various places on the Internet.
From:
http://www.edmonstone.com/Pages/dunredh.htm
"Archibald Edmonstone of Ballewan and Harlehaven had three sons, James, John and Archibald.
James, who received Broich from his father in 1662, had two sons who both died childless, the second of whom named George, sold Broich to Mr William Leckie in 1773. Consequently the name of the estate was changed by the latter's grandson, Mr Leckie Ewing, to Arngomery, which it still remains."
From:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/LANARK/2001-04/0987489483
(Family History Library (LDS)Film Number 1041479 Barony Parish Register of Births and Baptisms for 1838.0) "William Leckie EWING merchant Athole Place and Elenora McFARLINE had a lawful daughter their 9th child born 14th September 1838 named Mary Elizabeth. John McFARLANE and Dr Patrick McFARLANE witnesses. Baptised 30 Oct 1838."
From:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/INDIA/2003-03/1047242035
"All the following marriges took place at St. Paul's Cathedral, Calcutta
Date - 17th November 1864 by Licence
Robert Leckie EWING and Margaret BARROW
Both of full age
He a batchelor and she a spinster
Occupation of Groom - Indigo Planter
Abode of both - Alahabad ?
Groom's father - William Leckie
Bride's father - Richard Barrow
Witnesses - Michael Fox and Walter Thomson
Conducted by Horatio Monle (?) Junior Cathedral Chaplain"
From:
http://www.scottap.com/family/Lanark/MLNTestaments/MLNTestaments2B.html
"John BUCHANAN res sometime George St afterwards Melville St, Edin d 21 Oct 1836. James BUCHANAN Tertius mercht Glasgow brother of defunct. William Leckie EWING mercht Glasgow his cousin & Andrew Buchanan YUILLE of Darleith? his son in law"
From:
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/mac/macfarlane04.htm
Here there is ancestry of Eleanor MCFARLANE who married William Leckie EWING of Arngomery.
This is not, of course, the direct line of "our" Allan but (we are thinking) of cousins of his of various degrees.
JAP
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Oracle has found them in 1841 now I think.....and there is a Colin in the family (or at least living in the same place, I guess 1841 doesn't actually give relationships)
Apparently in 1841 living with a George and Mary Robertson at 1 Providence place are:
George 21 Collin17 huge12 think it Agnes10 Charles 8 john6 Mary3 Janet1
I think this fits in with the births found in the IGI?
Apologies if we have this already ten pages ago, but I've not had time to read everything today.
Emily
That's great Emily - it's the first time we've seen a Colin with them though he certainly suits the gap between twins George & Helen, and Archibald.
Missing are Helen (George's twin b 1820), and Archibald (b 1825); James (pa of "our" Allan) hasn't yet been born of course. Perhaps Helen didn't survive but, oh dear, where is Archie!
JAP
Just editing this post.
We've probably had this but it might help to put it here.
Colin Douglas ROBERTSON married Elizabeth Jane DALE on 30 Sep 1848 at St Thomas Stepney (extracted IGI entry)
On page 38, we had, in 1851, Colin D ROBERTSON, 27, provision merchant, b Middlesex Ratcliff, wife Elizabeth J 27, son George 1 and b-i-l John C DALE.
And adding another comment.
If we think that the wife of George ROBERTSON (Mary b Paisley ca 1798) is Mary DOUGLAS (there are LDS submissions for such a marriage in 1819 in Paisley/Greenock); and if we think that this might be the Mary DOUGLAS chr 28 Sep 1797 Paisley, parents Colin DOUGLAS and Elizabeth BUCHANAN, then it is great to find a possible Colin as the second son in the family (in line with Scottish naming patterns). But why was the first daughter named Helen? And why is there no Elizabeth? I guess there's room for an unrecorded Elizabeth between George&Helen and Colin - but where is she in 1841? And if there was one who didn't survive, it's a bit surprising that they didn't name one of the subsequent daughters Elizabeth.
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Yawwwwwing & stretching
Good morning everyone.
Gosh darn I went to bed too early & missed Sedona's entry. :)
Hi Sedona. welcome to Rootschat. :D
BD
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Hello everyone,
Wow,this thread is growing at an incredible rate. It's taken me ages to read it all and you might be interested to know (although not surprised) that this thread is now at no.3 in the top 10 Topics by replies, weighing in with an incredible 604,the number one slot being held by the 'British Isles Vital Records Index look up offer PART 2' with 717.
I reckon that very soon,this thread will be at the top!
Great work by everyone,only 3 weeks to go!! Eek........... :o
Cheers,Mick ;)
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While at work I can't do a lot except congratulate, especially Jo and JAP on what seems to be an enormous amount of info, and Annie and Rambler for confirming my tie-in with young Charles family.
Emily, The Oracle seems to have done great things overnight, hope she joins in with us. I love that she's confirmed the Colin. I don't believe we have George and Mary in 1851.
Welcome Sedona, its nice to meet you. I hope some of our findings will be good for you.
A general comment, wouldn't it be nice if some of English records were as comprehensive as other countries like those Scottish death entries and some of the USA and NZ ones. We just seem to have to work that much harder to make the connections with births, marriages and deaths.
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Do we have the details of George and Mary Robertson from 1851 yet?
Oracle has found a George and Mary at 1Providence place:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=63406.new#new
which fits with the address from the PO directory.
If we have them already in 1851 can someone add a post there that we don't need them anymore...I"ve completely lost track with this all at the moment.
Emily :)
The 1851 details haven't been posted on this thread - would love to see them!
Shame Archibald isn't on the 1841 census - would have liked confirmation that he survived childhood to marry Christian Leckie Ewing. Perhaps he's at school - seems to be a family tradition! Colin is a very interesting find, and I'm going to go back and find the previous references we had to a Colin Robertson, ships chandler. Helen would have been 21 in 1841, and possibly married. (If, of course, she survived childhood.)
Rambler
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We've probably had this?
Colin ROBERTSON's widow, Elizabeth, in 1881.
At 59 Up Gloster Pl, London, Middlesex, England
- Elizabeth J. ROBERTSON, Head, W, Female, 53, Stratford Le Bow, Middlesex, England; Annuitant
- George ROBERTSON, Son, U, Male, 28, Stratford Le Bow, Middlesex, England; Bankers Clerk
- Henry Douglas ROBERTSON, Son, U, Male, 23, Marylebone; Accountants Clerk
- Emma DALE, Sister, U, Female, 49, Stratford Le Bow, Middlesex, England; Annuitant
JAP
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Hi all,
I'm just downloading the 1841 census image that oracle has sent me so I'll let you know if I can see any other Robertsons on it.
She seems to have sent me 1851 as well, so I'll check that too...in the PM she sent me she mentioned a Robert erwing livingthere...so maybe this is connected with archibald..
JAP..I think I posted Elizabeth Robertson before..but this thread is so long that its now dificult to find anything. She was a Dale as I also came across the marriage somewhere as well.
I'll invite Oracle to join the thread.
Emily
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I have the 1851 image now, and I think it maybe has Helen on it..
As far as I can make out the family is:
George age 55 Head Ship chandler and sailmaker bn Scotland
Mary age 53 wife bn Scotland
Helen? age 31 daughter unmarried
Hugh M age 22 son prof cl?(chandler??)
Agnes age 21 daughter
Charles X? son 17 proffesion Cl?
John age 16 son...scholar
Mary? age 13 daughter....at home(scholar at home?)
Janet age 11 daugt at home
James age 8 son at home
then on the next page:
Robert A? Ewing visitor age 20 prof. Cl born Scotland
+ three servants
Emily
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Hi
I think your right about Helen Robertson age 31 now for the son 22 I think it Hugh
Hope it help you all
Sue
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Hi Sue,
I think you're right about the Hugh...I've now changed it.
Thanks again for your help...I'd been especially trying to tie Colin in with the family since last week.
Emily
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That's a long gap between the birth of Helen and Hugh ???
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That's a long gap between the birth of Helen and Hugh ???
Colin is in between (I think?) but had left home by 1851...Archibald too, but who knows where he is....
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OK - Having read through all 42 pages, if anyone wants to see the original "finds" regarding Colin, they're on p.20 & 21, but to recap quickly:
Colin married Elizabeth Jane Dale 30 Sep 1848 St Thomas, Stepney.
On the 1851 census he's a provisions merchant; in 1861 a ships chandler.
Known children:
George Robertson b. c1849, London
Hannah M Robertson b. c1854, London
Henry D Robertson b. c1856, London
So a few more rellies to follow up!
Rambler
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there an Archibald Robertson, Cotton merchant, in North Meols in 1861 visiting the Rector Charles Hesketh and family, but his age would put his birth year at 1823 :(
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1891 - Theres a Henry D Robertson, the right age, a patient in Camberwell House, London (accountant) RG12/472 Folio 164 Page 12
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Thank you Sue (Oracle) for your look ups, lovely to see Helen in there.
Just having a little delve in lunchtime, still looking at Charles family but now this has got me thinking.
Extracted
Jessie RobertsonJohnson b 17/11/58 C 28/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
Alice Maud Johnson b 1/10.1860 C 27/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
Parents Charles Johnson and Alice.
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Free BMD has possible births for Colin's children:
Sep qtr 1849: ROBERTSON George Poplar 2 318/319 (2 entries)
Sep qtr 1854: ROBERTSON Hannah Mary St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 180
Sep qtr 1856: ROBERTSON Henry Douglas Marylebone 1a 438
All different reg. districts, so I'm not sure, but Henry Douglas looks a good bet.
Rambler
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I have the 1851 image now, and I think it maybe has Helen on it..
As far as I can make out the family is:
George age 55 Head Ship chandler and sailmaker bn Scotland
Mary age 53 wife bn Scotland
Helen? age 31 daughter unmarried
Hugh M age 22 son prof cl?(chandler??)
Agnes age 21 daughter
Charles X? son 17 proffesion Cl?
John age 16 son...scholar
Mary? age 13 daughter....at home(scholar at home?)
Janet age 11 daugt at home
James age 8 son at home
then on the next page:
Robert A? Ewing visitor age 20 prof. Cl born Scotland
+ three servants
Emily
Just in case anyone hasn't caught up with who Robert EWING is likely to be ...
If our hypotheses are correct, then Archibald b 1825, a son of the above George ROBERTSON and wife Mary, had married - in 1849 in Scotland - Christian Leckie EWING, a daughter of William Leckie EWING and Eleanora MCFARLANE.
Among the other children of William Leckie EWING and Eleanora MCFARLANE was a Robert EWING, b 1830 in Barony, Lanarkshire, Scotland - very likely to be the Robert EWING in the census above.
Interesting to see Helen turning up!
JAP
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Free BMD has possible births for Colin's children:
Sep qtr 1849: ROBERTSON George Poplar 2 318/319 (2 entries)
Sep qtr 1854: ROBERTSON Hannah Mary St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 180
Sep qtr 1856: ROBERTSON Henry Douglas Marylebone 1a 438
All different reg. districts, so I'm not sure, but Henry Douglas looks a good bet.
Rambler
Rambler, Henry Douglas ROBERTSON's birthplace is given in the 1881 census as Marylebone; George's as Stratford le Bow (Genuki says that Poplar included Bow - also known as Stratford le Bow).
JAP
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Thank you Sue (Oracle) for your look ups, lovely to see Helen in there.
Just having a little delve in lunchtime, still looking at Charles family but now this has got me thinking.
Extracted
Jessie RobertsonJohnson b 17/11/58 C 28/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
Alice Maud Johnson b 1/10.1860 C 27/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
Parents Charles Johnson and Alice.
I've no idea what this means, but I don't like it! These Robertsons certainly like to confuse us... I was convinced we had Charles Mackae's family sorted, but this puts the cat among the pigeons , doesn't it? (Or herrings if you prefer.) Yuk! ??? ??? ???
Rambler
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Rambler, Henry Douglas ROBERTSON's birthplace is given in the 1881 census as Marylebone; George's as Stratford le Bow (Genuki says that Poplar included Bow - also known as Stratford le Bow).
JAP
Thanks JAP - as a true northerner, I know zip about London districts, and you've saved me having to look them up! ;D
Rambler
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Thank you Sue (Oracle) for your look ups, lovely to see Helen in there.
Just having a little delve in lunchtime, still looking at Charles family but now this has got me thinking.
Extracted
Jessie RobertsonJohnson b 17/11/58 C 28/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
Alice Maud Johnson b 1/10.1860 C 27/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
Parents Charles Johnson and Alice.
Mary A, I hadn't seen those but something I did notice on FreeBMD earlier today but didn't mention was the following birth:
Charles Robertson Johnson, births Jun qtr 1857, Liverpool
; )
JAP
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my great grandfather, Reginald Luckock Muir disappeared and the family never knew what happened to him. It seems he did come to the USA, maybe with a brother but no one in the family knows what became of him. There was something about a bad investment in a mine in the United States (having borrowed money from a brother in England). His wife and 3 children (including my grandfather) moved to the USA on their own before he did, I think. We have no info of there ever being a divorce but wonder if he married again anyway and may have had other children. He may have died in the US but we can't find a death record. My father and his brother and sister and I have all tried to find some record of Reginald but can't.
I'm sure someone found a death record for Reginald Lucock Muir in this thread but I can't find it. Did I imagine it? ???
Welcome to Rootschat Sedona, let's hope we can solve this family mystery for you.
Allan
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Thanks for that birth ref JAP, doesn't it seem strange how all of these Johnsons have added about 4 years each onto their ages by 1871? Nice to have a birth record to go by.
Allan send me a pm with your email addy and I'll send you a copy of my Word doc of this thread, it should make it easier to search for something. I won't be home for a few hours though.
Mary
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Dec qtr 1859 - JOHNSON Alice Mary Stepney 1c 514
Jessie RobertsonJohnson b 17/11/58 C 28/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
Alice Maud Johnson b 1/10.1860 C 27/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
I wonder if we'll ever find out which is our young Alice ???
I don't like this middle name Robertson popping up in the Johnsons either, I really don't think that Alice was a Robertson since she was born too early in Liverpool ..... the other possibility is that Charles was born on the wrong side of the blanket and father was :o Robertson?
Any other speculations?
Mary
shhhhhhh I really AM supposed to be working.
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We have had this before I think.......!!??? The Gilchrists are on here ....... !!
1881
Mary Barrow MUIR Relationship Daur (Head) Condition U Gender F Age 19 Occupation – Birthplace London, London, Middlesex Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
James E. MUIR Relationship Son (Brother) Condition U Gender M Age 15 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Ceylon, India Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Charlotte G. MUIR Relationship Daur (Sister) Condition – Gender F Age 13 Occupation Scholar Birthplace At Sea Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Reginald L. MUIR Relationship Son (Brother) Condition – Gender M Age 10 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Bombay, India Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Gertrude MUIR Relationship Daur (Sister) Condition – Gender F Age 8 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Liverpool Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Emma HARRISON Relationship Visitor Condition U Gender F Age 24 Occupation – Birthplace St Helens, Lancashire Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Robt. GILCHRIST Relationship Visitor Condition M Gender M Age 52 Occupation Shipowner (Navgans) Birthplace Montrose, Scotland Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Mary GILCHRIST Relationship Visitor Condition M Gender F Age 45 Occupation – Birthplace Glasgow Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Ann GRANT Relationship Servt Condition U Gender F Age 24 Occupation General Servt Domestic Birthplace Liverpool Address 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
________
County Durham 1891 Census (S. Shields R.D.)
56 Croft Terrace Name Reginald L MUIR Relationship to head Boarder Condition S Age 21 Occupation Marine Engineer Drau Birth Place India, – Census Place Jarrow Monkton & Hebburn District South Shields
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Marriage of Hannah Mary Robertson to Edward St G Wolseley (a solicitor from Ireland) Marylebone Sept 1877 Vol 1a Page 1086
On the 1881 census they are living with their daughter Kathleen M and a servant
On the 1891 census they are living in St Mary Paddington (Marylands Road) with Kathleen and "aunt" Emma Dale" who is "living on own means". Wasnt she living with other relatives in earlier censuses? Found it - sister in law to Colin, living with them on 1861 census (RG12/7 Folio 33 Page 60)
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By the time of the 1901 census Kathleen is a Teacher of Music, aged 22, Edward still a solicitor and aunt Emma Dale aged 72 is still living with them. Edwards sister Alice aged 40 is also living with them, a Printers Clerk, I think it says (RG13/1214 Folio 93 Page 3) They have moved to Willesden, Funley? Road)
(Edward died Sept qtr 1907 aged 54 Hendon Vol. 3a P137)
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CatOne, Isn't it nice when you get the confirmation of a visitor that you know!
Still following Charlie & co. because of the wide range of ages given by both him and Alice its difficult. Not finding them in 1881 census and with the children scattered at boarding schools, I think this might be Alice, worth bearing in mind until a complete search of emigrants has been finished.
Deaths Alice Robertson June Qtr 1876 West Derby 8b 218 - 35 years old.
I kow she said 47 in 1871, but she also said 23 in 1861 and by the ages of the children that seems more likely to me, maybe the enumerator simply followed the 4something down the column under Charles. Do I make as much sense as usual? :P
Mary
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Forgive me ... its been a long day .... but have we already had:
IGI extracted record:
Birth of John MOLLISON ROBERTSON, parents James Robertson and Mary Mollison, on 1 October 1856 at Alyth, Perth, Scotland?
Paul
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Forgive me ... its been a long day .... but have we already had:
IGI extracted record:
Birth of John MOLLISON ROBERTSON, parents James Robertson and Mary Mollison, on 1 October 1856 at Alyth, Perth, Scotland?
Paul
No, I don't remember seeing this, and don't have any idea how it fits. Do you think it means the wife was called Mary Molison XXX before her marriage? Right at the beginning of our search, if you remember, we found Mary Marshall Molison referred to as Mary Marshall on at least one birth record. Another couple with Robertson-Molison connections at the very least....
Rambler
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Female middle names that are surnames aren't necessarily their maiden name; they may be their mother's maiden name or even grandmother's.
Just in from work and trying to sneak onto the computer before my boys demand food ;)
Jo
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Perhaps I expressed myself badly: what I meant is that we can't tell from this record whether the mother's maiden name was Mary Molison or Mary Molison Something-Else, as many baptismal records don't give the mother's maiden name, and family surnames are often used as middle names.
Rambler
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:( Hi Guys,
I wish they would stop doing the flamin' housework round 'ere. :-\
Lost 3 posting's now.
One I was on, only 7 hrs before it was whipped off somewhere,
probably to pressed and folded away, in the drawer.... ;D
Anyhow (35) postings looking for Robertson's.
Would you like me to contact them, to let them know about this thread,
just in case they don't already... :)
Lesanne.
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I wanted to 'resurrect' this post from the estimable BD which, along with Annie's post which indicated that he was married to a 'DG' sugests we should be looking for a marriage in the UK or USA in 1928 for Douglas.
From the IGI again
Husband
Douglas Muir Robertson
Birth: 09 JAN 1900 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Christening:
Marriage: 11 JUL 1928
Death: 02 OCT 1942
Father: Alan Robertson Family
Mother: Charlotte Georgina Dale Muir
Wife
Name Unavailable
Douglas was married in 1928 but his wife's name is unavailable.
We still need to find Alan's parents :)
Can we find a 1928 marriage for Douglas?
cheers
Paul
PS Douglas is of course the son of Alan.
Does anyone remember that satirical series 'SOAP'? :) :) :)
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OK - found on 1837Online, marriage of Douglas M Robertson in September Qtr 1928, Portsmouth to a Miss Barr.
So at least we know that Douglas was in England in 1928 :)
DG Barr?
Paul
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I've just posted an updated summary of the Robertsons, hopefully without too many typos or glaring mistakes...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.0.html
Hope it's useful. 8)
Rambler
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Well, we knw that neither Alan, Charlotte or Douglas appear in the 1901 England census.
But we know that Douglas is back in England (at Portsmouth) to marry ? DG Barr in 1928.
He dies in 1942, and his father is back in England a week later, when he too dies.
I would mistrust the US Census entries we have for Alan in America in 1920 and 1930: as MR has said, the Mariner is most suspect, but the other one for a Cotton Mill supervisor is a very different role than a Cotton Broker, and the estimated year for first marriage is a few years out.
Where were the Robertsons in 1901? (Never mind Claude!) :)
Paul
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I've been looking for David Robertson b. 1853 I think this is his son -
http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/certificate.aspx?casualty=45475
Archibald Allan Robertson
I had a marriage between Elizabeth and David now I've lost it - will repost..!
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Paul: Oh poor Claude, you can't forget about him after all this time.
Still following Charles family
Lilias Robertson married George Herbert Preston at St Pauls Toxeth Park 1895 December qtr, 8b 390.
1901 census
19 Hyde Road, Waterloo, Waterloo with Seaforth, Parliamentary Borough of Southport (which means its in Lancashire, not the Waterloo in London :P)
Lilias Preston Wife M 32 London Bow
Ronald Son 5 months Lancs Waterloo
Minnie " Servant S 28 General Servant (Domestic) " Liverpool
Jean Butter Serv S 15 " "
Birth of Ronald Percy R Preston December qtr 1900 West Derby 8b 238.
"R" stand for Robertson maybe?
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A possible death record for Charles from Free BMD:
Deaths Mar 1877
ROBERTSON Charles McCree 43 Wirral 8a 309
The age fits, and the IGI birth record for Hugh Moody Robertson (1869) gave the father as Charles McCrae Robertson. We have his middle name as Mackae from the 1861 census, but looking at the image, it could possibly be a capital R, not a k, ie. MacRae.
Rambler
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That's a nice tie up MR, although I think we need to have another look over on the Wirral since he died there. Maybe some family moved over, especially since that was where Lilias boarded at school.
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Link of 1861 visitor HAMILTON to the ROBERTSONs
The following seems to provide the link of visitor HAMILTON in the 1861 census to the ROBERTSONs.
Re visitor Louisa Gelly Hamilton:
There's an LDS submission for the birth of a Louisa Gellie HAMILTON b 27 Feb 1806, West Greenock, Renfrew, parents John HAMILTON and Isabella GELLIE. And LDS submissions for the marriage of those parents 22 Sep 1794 in Greenock/West Greenock. And an LDS submission for the birth of that John HAMILTON 11 Oct 1755 in West Greenock, parents Archibald HAMILTON and Agnes HYNDMAN, and his burial 9 Sep 1809 in West Greenock, and a Will dated Jul 1809.
It says that Isabella GELLIE was born in Row Dunbarton, and that her father was a Capt James GELLIE.
Also lists other children to John and Isabella.
No help to us - but mentioned for completeness.
JAP
I posted the above on page 29, and mentioned it again on page 39 as follows:
Louisa Gelly HAMILTON, unm, 53 b Greenock (on page 29 I posted identifying her - but not any connexion with the ROBERTSONs)
Well, I've found a HAMILTON-ROBERTSON connexion which seems to be the one. An Archibald ROBERTSON (another unrecorded son of George snr's putative parents, Archibald ROBERTSON and Janet MOODY?) married an Agnes HAMILTON (LDS submissions say that she was a daughter of John HAMILTON and Isabella GELLIE, b 8 Jul, chr 4 Aug 1797 in Greenock, d 4 Mar 1887).
Just look at the children of Archibald and Agnes - not just the middle name Moody but also their birthplaces.
The following are all extracted entries.
Archibald ROBERTSON m Agnes HAMILTON, 22 Jul 1822 Greenock.
They had:
Isabella Gillie ROBERTSON, 1823 Greenock
1st daughter named after Agnes's mother - forename and middle name
Archibald Moody ROBERTSON, 1825 Greenock
1st son named after Archibald's father (forename), middle name the m.s. of Archibald's mother
Janet ROBERTSON, 1828 Greenock
2nd daughter named after Archibald's mother
Louisa Mary ROBERTSON, 1831 Liverpool
Helen ROBERTSON, 1833 Liverpool
Agnes Hamilton ROBERTSON, 1839 Liverpool
So perhaps George ROBERTSON jnr (uncle of "our" Allan) went from London to Liverpool ca 1856 to join, or take over from, his own Uncle Archibald?
JAP
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Archibald ROBERTSON the Cashier
See page 39.
We still haven't proved whether Archibald ROBERTSON, Cashier of the Royal Bank, Glasgow, Great-grandson of Hugh MOODY, and husband of Christian Leckie EWING is "our" Archibald b 1825, elder brother of "our" Allan's father James.
Doesn't anyone have the 1881 census CD to do a lookup please for the age and birthplace of Alexander the cashier?
He was still alive in 1881.
There are two Will entries for him and his death date is given as 28 Nov 1890.
ROBERTSON Archibald, 07/01/1891, late cashier of the Royal Bank of Scotland, Glasgow, residing at Ballancleroch, co Stirling, d. 28/11/1890 at Ballancleroch aforesaid, testate, spouse of Mrs Christian Leckie Ewing or Robertson - Inventory; Extract Registered Trust Disposition and Settlement; Codicils
ROBERTSON Archibald, 25/02/1891, late cashier of the Royal Bank of Scotland, Glasgow, residing at Ballancleroch, co Stirling, d. 28/11/1890 at Ballancleroch aforesaid, testate, father of Eleanora McFarlan Robertson, etc - Additional Inventory
Archibald's widow, Christian, died in London in 1900
ROBERTSON Christian Leckie, 05/10/1900, or Ewing, 21 Carlyle Square, Chelsea, London, widow of Archibald Robertson, Banker, Glasgow, d. 08/03/1900 at Chelsea, London, testate - Will
JAP
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Douglas M Robertson married Daisy G Barr in Portsmouth on 11 July 1928.
The 1901 census has seven Daisy Barrs (thank goodness Daisy was a new-ish name then!) and only one Daisy G Barr:
At 14 Grange Terrace, Station Road, Wood Green, London
Arthur Barr, Head, 29, Grocers' Manager, Liverpool
Margaret Barr, Wife, 30 , Liverpool
Daisy G Barr, Daur, 2, Liverpool
Hilda M Barr, 2mths, London Wood Green
So - a recent move to London for the Barrs, or perhaps Margaret returned home to have Hilda?
Paul
NB
Marriage of Arthur Stock Barr to Margaret Howard in Sept Qtr of 1897 in West Derby, Liverpool
(Now isn't Stock a lovely name for a Grocer? :))
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Looking for the Barrs in 1891, we find them in West Derby, Liverpool...
Father of Arthur is a retired Grocer, also Arthur (57, born Scotland)
and his mother is Elizabeth, (47, born Canada), shown with children Margaret 25, Arthur S 19, Archibald JR 13, Alice E 10, Gertrude 8 - all born Liverpool.
So, Douglas marries into a family of Grocers originating in Scotland, who move to Liverpool and then London. (Could we write the script? :) - if so, then lets leave a part for 'JR' 8))
cheers
Paul
Looking at the 1881 census, its actually Archibald JK - shame!
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I did have a quick look at the 1881 Scotland yesterday evening for Archibald and Christain Robertson to no avail. Will have another go this evening.
Love the Hamilton Robertson connection - brilliant work.
Jo
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Gro Vol 475 Eun dis1 page 13
Ballandorch Mansion House, Campsie Stirling.
Arichibald Robertson head Banker age 60 born greenock Glasgow.
Christine wife age 52 born Glasgow.
Eleanor Mc F dau age 29 born Kippen Glasgow.
Janet G daug age 19 born Glasgow.
helen M dau age 18 born Glasgow.
Plus six servants,
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Found this just before saw 1881 entry just posted - it refers to the house Archibald was in in 1881. But with him being born Glasgow !!!!!!!!!
The next laird was his eldest son, John M'Farlan, a surgeon in Edinburgh. He married Janet Buchanan Ewing, daughter of Robert Ewing, merchant in Glasgow, and Isabella Leckie, of the old family of Leckies of Croy Leckie and Broich in the county of Stirling, and he died in 1852. (2)
The family connection was further strengthened by the marriage of John M'Farlan's eldest sister Eleanora to William Leckie Ewing of Arngomery in the county of Stirling, and who more than once occupied the mansion house and shootings of Ballancleroch for a considerable time.
Mr. Leckie Ewing was a well known Glasgow merchant, a member of the old firm of Stirling Gordon & Co., and for many years, in connection with his partners, John Gordon of Aikenhead, Charles Stirling of Cadder, and Charles Stirling of Gargunnock, took a leading part in the politics of Glasgow and the West of Scotland on the Tory or Conservative side. He formed one of the deputation who went to Drayton Manor to invite Sir Robert Peel to a public banquet in Glasgow in 1837 on the occasion of his installation as Lord Rector of the University. He died in 1866. His eldest daughter married Archibald Robertson, cashier of the Royal Bank in Glasgow, and another daughter is the wife of Michael Connal, a very well known and esteemed citizen of Glasgow.
From http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/smihou/smihou006.htm
Jo
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Nessie, thank you very much indeed for that!
But what a disappointment! I was really hoping that Archibald the banker would be "ours" as it would virtually have proven the link of "our" family to Archibald ROBERTSON and Janet MOODY (daughter of Hugh MOODY). But it was not to be! Of course, it hasn't disproven such a link - circumstantial evidence is still strong given the use in "our" family of the forenames 'Hugh Moody' - but it would have been great to have it confirmed. (Though a birthplace given as Kippen Glasgow - for Eleanor - doesn't give one much faith in the birthplaces! But they surely wouldn't get both age and birthplace wrong.)
Ah well, back to the drawing board.
Thanks again Nessie.
JAP
PS: Jo, it's hard to keep up with this thread! We had the relevant part of the quote from the Ballancleroch site back on p39 - it was how we knew that Archibald ROBERTSON the cashier, Ggson of Hugh MOODY, was the same chap as the Archibald ROBERTSON who married Christian Leckie EWING.
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Just to tie up the possible descent of Archibald ROBERTSON the Cashier/Banker, Ggson of Hugh MOODY.
Looking at the names of the children of Archibald the Cashier in terms of Scottish naming practices (which I should have done earlier and it would have struck warning bells) - the 1st son of Archibald the Cashier and his wife Christian was John Aeneas ROBERTSON (presumably named after Archibald's father, John) and their second daughter was Elizabeth Morrison ROBERTSON (presumably named after Archibald's mother, Elizabeth MORRISON).
Sure enough, it looks as though Cashier Archibald was a son of John ROBERTSON and Betsey/Betsy/Betty MORRISON. John ROBERTSON who married Betsy presumably the son chr 1788 in Greenock of Archibald ROBERTSON and Janet MOODY - Janet the daughter of Hugh MOODY. So this would make Cashier Archibald the son of John ROBERTSON, grandson of Archibald ROBERTSON, and Ggson of Hugh MOODY.
John ROBERTSON married Betsey MORRISON 6 Sep 1819 (records in Glasgow and Greenock). They had:
- Archibald (unfortunately this is an LDS submission) b 20 Sep 1820 Glasgow
- Janet 1822 Glasgow
- Hugh 1824 Barony
- John Wallace 1825 Barony
- Georgina Susannah 1827 Barony
- James 1829 Barony
- Kenneth Stuart 1830 Barony
The 1881 age and birthplace of Archibald the Cashier tie in exactly with those of Archibald b Sep 1820 in Glasgow - and the names of his children (1st son and 2nd daughter) tie in with his being the son of John ROBERTSON and Betsy MORRISON ...
JAP
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Archibald Robertson, cashier
Well done JAP - with the similar names used in all branches of the Robertson family, this was a real puzzle.
Will have a proper look at the new info later - just back from the doctor with my 2nd son (sports injury!), and about to feed the horde before taking youngest daughter to a friend's birthday outing...
Good hunting!
Rambler
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Birthdate right with BVRI for Archibald, JAP, and birthdate for Janet is 21/08/1822. Others arent on my (2nd ed) BVRI
I know the name McFarlane cropped up earlier, so do these fit in with ours anywhere?
Margaret (b.1819), John (b.1822) and Elizabeth (b.1823) to parents John Robertson and Elizabeth McFarlane
Abbey (Paisley) Renfrewshire
(cant find a marriage for the parents though)
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Hi CatOne,
Nice to have the birthdate and place of this Archibald confirmed!
It did look reliable as there were also LDS submissions for the other children which tallied precisely with their extracted births & christenings. But there's always a lingering doubt when it isn't an extracted entry so it's very good to have the BVRI for this Archie.
The McFARLANE we had before was the ms of the mother of Archibald the cashier's wife (Christian Leckie EWING's mother was Eleanora McFARLANE) so I don't think there's anything specifically to connect the ROBERTSONs you mention.
JAP
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Now that we have a couple of connections coming post 1900 it seemed appropriate to post a notice in the Old Pals Section of the local paper, the Liverpool Echo. Due to size constraints (1000 characters) I had to reduce the story to just a little paragraph, which you can read here if you wish. http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/expats/oldpals/ If anyone has any extra thoughts then maybe they could post an additional message.
Mary
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So perhaps George ROBERTSON jnr (uncle of "our" Allan) went from London to Liverpool ca 1856 to join, or take over from, his own Uncle Archibald?
JAP
The only trade directory I've found is too early I'm afraid 1828-29 Pigots there are no Archibald or George Robertsons in Liverpool
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Do you think the unaccustomed heat is getting to us and slowing us up? :)
Temperatures here in England are 21degrees C + today and the sky is blue.
Maybe the garden is proving more tempting than the PC, as posts to this thread have slowed up a little!
MR - time to get the whip out!
cheers
Paul
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Paul
After being up most of the night for the last 3 days - looking for your buddy Claude - all I can say is - some of us have to sleep sometime and it's only 9 am here - so I have plenty of time........... ??? ??? ??? ???
Annie
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Just got home and yes the garden is beckoning, the ideal solution would be a laptop with wireless internet, how cool would that be!
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I found this request for information
I couldn't find a date but this is about HMS Curacao
This the ship Douglas Muir Robertson went down on - think we could find out if they got any Robertson replies??
The Canadian TV show Disasters of the Century is looking for ancestors of/or survivors and witnesses of the Queen Mary and HMS Curacoa collision off the coast of Ireland on Oct. 2, 1942.
If you have any information please contact:
Jackie Lay
Researcher
Disasters of the Century
2704 10th Ave.
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
S4T 1E9
Phone: (306) 545-1426
Fax: 1-306-569-9616
Toll Free in the US and Canada 1-877-302-4333 ext 76
**********
Thought this was kind of weird too....
Many unexplained things happen aboard The Queen Mary. Hatches and doors open by themselves in the hours after midnight, sounds are heard in various areas of the ship, wet footprints have appeared along the empty pool, and the ship's first captain who died aboard the ship is seen pacing the bridge.
Most spine chilling is an incident that occurred during the trip into California. A marine engineer aboard was in the bow below deck when he heard the voices of panicked men screaming in horror. Then he heard the sound of crunching metal being ripped apart and the sound of rushing water. The same noises have been heard occasionally since the ship has been permanently berthed. Is this the accident of the Curacoa being relived again?
Skeptical?
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Well it looks like Michael's info has chased everyone off the Molison's. :'(
Michael can't join us in the thread but he has read it and seems to agree that Mary Marshall Molison may not have shacked up with Mr Aubrey Lee.
So come on this is great we've helped :-*
Anyway, here's some real flesh onto bones and voyage information. Some of this comes from yet another researcher of the family.
The records show ASM voyages as;
13 December 1832
Capt. of Barque 'Westminster' and on this day receives letter from passengers of ship on arrival-port not known-of commendation on his running a good ship.
27 March 1835
Sailed from The Downs Capt Barque 'Westmorland' 405 tons, built Lynn in 1832, arr. Sydney 15 July 1835 in a passage of 100 days. 220 male convicts shipped. 2 died en route.
6 November 1835
Obtains Crown Grant for land in Wollongong., New South Wales.
31 August 1836
Sailed from Portsmouth, Capt Ship 'Eden' 513 tons, built London 1826, arr. Hobart via the Cape 22 Dec 1836, a voyage of 113 days. 280 male convicts embarked, 3 deaths en route.
15 April 1840
Capt of 'Blenheim' at a disturbance of natives in New Zealand. Molison was anchored in the Bay of Islands. In the late afternoon trouble was brewing ashore with the natives, and Hobson asked for help. Molison quietly moved his ship to a position where his broadside guns commanded several of the gathering places of the natives, and dropped a stern anchor as well so he could bring his guns to bear regardless of tide. The quiet message was not lost, and the disturbances quietened and then ceased. For this practical effort, he was commended by Hobson.
The original is signed by Lieut-Governor Hobson..... the following account from 'The Maori Wars, by Tom Gibson, pub 1974, p.22....'On 16 April 1840, the Government storeship Buffalo sailed into the Bay of Islands with a company of the 80th Regiment under Major Thomas Bunbury. ' The men who wore red garments' had arrived in New Zealand in support of the Treaty of Waitangi. Though 2,500 troops under a Major-General were stationed on the Australian mainland and Van Diemens Land, belonging to the regiments who assembled there from convict escort duty, the Governor of New South Wales, Sir George Gipps, was expressly instructed by the Imperial Government, already operationally committed to China and Afghanistan and fearful of further involvement, to detach no more than a garrison of one hundred men to his new responsibility. While the soldiers settled in at Kororareka, Bunbury was despatched almost immediately in Herald to South Island...' The disturbance must have been before this despatch of Bunbury ie in terms of Hobson's letter, the Monday before 22 April 1840.
5 October 1842
Sailed from Plymouth, Capt 'Earl Grey' Barque 571 tons, built Newcastle 1835, arr Hobart 14 Jan 1843. 264 male convicts embarked 3 died en route. From a barely decipherable letter of a Mr. Edwin Atkins written by him from Tumut River on 2 March 1843,to Capt Molison, Capt Earl Grey, Sydney, it appears that after leaving Hobart, ASM went to Sydney and then Manila. As he was back in Sydney in July, it may well be he did not return to England, but went to India via Manila to embark the troops he landed in Sydney on 20 July.
20 July 1843
Capt. of 'Earl Grey' and arrived in Sydney on this day and received a letter of commendation from Edward Lash, Major commanding 99th regiment, and co-signed by Ensign Robert Mendel and E.W. Isdell Ensign.
4 Nov 1845
At the time of the birth of his son DDM was resident at 1 Vittoria Place Limehouse.
10 April 1850
Sailed from Plymouth, Capt 'Blenheim' Ship 808 tons, built Shields 1845, arr Hobart 24 July 1850 in a passage of 143 days. 300 male convicts embarked, 7 relanded, 4 died en route. By the standards of the day, he must have been a humane captain. Relanding convicts was unusual. There must be a story here.
29 July 1851
Sailed from Cork, Capt Ship 'Blenheim' , arr Hobart 31 Oct 1851 a passage of 94 days. 310 male convicts embarked, 2 died en route. Ship class A1, Master Alex. S. Molison, Surgeon Jn. Smith.
Embarked with 310 male convicts, 2 deaths, landed 308 at Hobart.
Canterbury, full-rigged ship of 681/789 tons built in Sunderland in 1851, owned by D. Dunbar, registered at London, captained by Molison, with a destined voyage to New Zealand. The vessel does not appear in the Register for 1856 onwards, maybe "sold foreign". This may well be an erroneous entry.
8 August 1851
ASM's residence was 6 Warkworth Terrace, Limehouse. This was the date of death of his son at the age of 10 months, John, from Hydroencephalus.
To be continued
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26th Jan 1853
Arrival of the ship Forres from London to Sydney 17th May 1853 Master Molison Cargo/other agent: Smith, Campbell & Co
Passenger / crew list; Molison Mrs tsg:477 Forsyth Mr tsg:477
Feb 1854
In Melbourne as Captain of the Blenheim- see British Shipping Index 1852-9 held at the Victorian Govt Archives. Owner: D. Dunbar Port of registry: London
'Canterbury', full-rigged ship of 681/789 tons built in Sunderland in 1851, owned by D. Dunbar, registered at London, captained by Molison, with a destined voyage to New Zealand. The vessel does not appear in the Register for 1856 onwards, maybe "sold foreign".
2 February 1855
Signs a Power of Attorney in favour of his 'half brother' James Molison, then resident in Sydney.
4 April 1856
Lancashire Witch sailed from Gravesend and arrived Auckland 1 August 1856 . A S Molison Captain. This was a troop ship and came via Australia and Wellington.
20 July 1856
Lancashire Witch entered Wellington Harbour, N.Z.
White Wings Vol. 2 Brett wrote: "In 1856 Lancashire Witch, 1368 tons, from London, via Australia, arrived July 20th. Brought 226 passengers, including 149 men of the 65th Regiment to Wellington.
Another vessel of the same name, a ship of 1574 tons, made several voyages to New Zealand in the sixties." Details given in White Wings, Vol. 1. Reference: 'White Wings' Vol. 2
The Illustrated London News Jan. 30, 1858
"CHINA -THE ATTACK ON CANTON"
"We take the following from the Overland China Mail of Dec. 16:-
The two squadrons are to act in concert, and, in token of the alliance, the British, on the 13th, hoisted the French, and the French the British, flags at the main on board the men-of war.... As nothing is further from probability than that Yeh will surrender unconditionally, the assault on the city, it is pretty
evident, will take place in the course of a few days. All the marines are in the river, and a portion were to land on the Honan side. The artillery are on board the troop-ship 'Moresfoot', ready to start. The party of Engineers arrived by mail-steamer, with, it is said, four companies of the 59th Regiment, are under orders to embark on board the LANCASHIRE WITCH, and about 300 hundred of the Chinese
Coolie Corps go up in the 'Inflexible'."
Until 31 October 1858- in command of ship 'Lancashire Witch' as a transport under the command of the Royal Navy. Since 4 April 1856- a 2 and a half year stint carrying troops.
31 December 1858- given a certificate of commendation by Rear-Admiral commanding the Naval transport. The certificate given in Hong Kong on this day. Certificate given by the Admiral as to the service given to the RN as Capt of a transport in period 8/6/1856-31/10/1858.
The Ship Whirlwind from Hong Kong out 114 days, arrived yesterday with 347 immigrants.
Captain Edghill reports that the Lancashire Witch left Hong Kong 15 days before the Whirlwind, and that when this last named vessel left the Cape of Good Hope, the other had not been heard of. The Whirlwind experienced some severe weather and it is to be hoped that no accident has occurred to the Lancashire Witch, now out 129 days.
[Royal Gazette, 1 Aug 1861]
We are glad to say that the Lancashire Witch arrived yesterday, after the unusually long passage of 131 days. She took in 461 immigrants and one birth occurred on board, but she lost 29 people during the voyage. Of these, 24 died, chiefly from diarrhoea, and 5 were missing, supposed to have been drowned either from suicide, or through accident; the last death took place three days ago. Of the 433 persons brought here 26 are females.
[Royal Gazette, 6 Aug 1861]
At around about this time, on a trip to Siam, he gave the King of Siam a sheep. The King wrote a letter to ASM thanking him and requesting another sheep be sent- a ram this time- 'to perpetuate the species.'
11 Feb 1862
Edwin Fox sailed from Colombo for London. Arrived London 29 May after a reasonably uneventful voyage.
6 April 1862
Duncan Dunbar II dies and gives ASM the right to have first purchase of any Dunbar vessels. The Edwin Fox was subsequently put up for sale after its return to London. It was bought by Edward Gellatly, a beneficiary of Dunbar and the Executor of his estate, for 7600 pounds. Gellatly later formed the partnership of Gellatly, Hankey and Sewell, but the ship's shares were not included in the partnership until 1866. Also, Captain Ferguson, who had been in command since the ship's early years, left and was replaced by Captain Francis Freemantle McLean, 50 years old.
Circa 15 Apr 1862
Edwin Fox sailed for London, having loaded at the ports of Calicut and Cochin. There is no record of the 1863 cargo, but Calicut is the home of calico. Arrived London on 28 August 1862.
11 Sept 1862
ASM buys 14/64ths of the 'Edwin Fox' from Edward Gellatly who had bought the whole ship. Gellatly had been in DDII's employ as well, and was also mentioned in his will. ASM's address was given as 8 Tredegar Sq, Mile End.
15 Sept 1862
Edwin Fox sailed from London for Bombay. There is no record of her cargo, but she probably carried her normal load of "London General" and "India Pale Ale". Arrived at Bombay on 29 January 1863.
To be continued...
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7 January 1863
Sells his land in Wollongong New South Wales to James Waddell Frazer for 100 pounds. The deed of conveyance signed under Power of Attorney by his half brother James Molison. See No. 427, Book 81 Registrar Generals Office, Sydney.
19 Oct 1863
Edwin Fox sailed for Bombay with her regular cargo of London General and India Pale Ale. Arrived at Bombay on 8 February 1864. The ship lay idle until 7 May 1864.
7 May 1864
Sailed for Calcutta with coastal cargo. Arrived 26 May 1864.
11 July 1864
Sailed in ballast for Hong Kong looking for cargo. On 17 July the First Mate died of dysentery and was buried at sea. Arrived Hong Kong on 10 August. Unable to secure cargo the ship lay idle for two months.
12 Oct 1864
Sailed in ballast for Singapore. A full load of general cargo was obtained in Singapore.
28 Dec 1864
Sailed for Capetown and London. Arrived Capetown about 15 March 1865. Took on "wool, and skins" from Capetown. Called off St. Helena on 7 April and reached Gravesend on 8 June 1865.
June 1865
A new Master came on board the Edwin Fox in London, a Captain Alexander J. Molison, 29 years old.
10 August 1865
The Edwin Fox was again chartered by the Transport Service and loaded units of the Royal Horse Artillery, 26th Cameronians, 33rd, 45th, 103rd, 106th and 113th Regiments of Foot, all from Aldershot Barracks. There were 195 men, 20 women and 22 children. She sailed from Portsmouth and arrived in Bombay on 9 December, 121 days. During this voyage 12 of the soldiers died as well as 3 infant children. Two births were recorded.
3 Feb 1866
Sailed from Bombay, called at St. Helena on 6 April 1866, and arrived at Spithead on 30 May 1866. Still in the service of the Transport Service she carried 143 military personnel, many of them invalids, 14 women and 31 children. During the voyage 15 invalids and 1 child died, plus 1 saloon passenger who died just 14 days out.
30 May 1866
ASM increases his shares in the Edwin Fox to 20.
24 November 1866
'Edwin Fox', goes aground on the South Male atoll, Maldive Islands while captained by his son AJM, who by a masterpiece of seamanship got the ship off the reef and sailed it without a rudder from South Male to Bombay for repairs. Masters certificate suspended pending an enquiry-which exonerated him of blame, and returned his certificate praising him for his seamanship.
Captain Alexander Strachan Molison assumed command following the death of his son. He was still one of the ship's owners at this time.
4 May 1867
ASM- Sailed as Captain on a homeward voyage Bombay to London with general cargo and 4 officers and 59 invalid soldiers, 12 convicted men, 11 women, 33 children and 2 "lunatics". Six soldiers died enroute. As the ship's doctor later wrote, the cold southern waters seemed to carry more mortality potential than the heat of the tropics. The ship arrived in London on 30 August 1867. The ship received a new Master, Captain William Black. ASM left the Edwin Fox as Captain at this time.
29 Oct 1867
ASM sold his shares in the ship to Gellatlys.
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Good Girl Pam .... fill up the pages !! - but what a tremendous amount of information you have there........
( "I have thinker's block" ......!! :P
I don't know why - can't get anything to work out.......!! )
But there's some really good info here and confirmations too !!
Thanks for all of this - this is so cool isn't it??
Annie ::) ::)
PS Just figured out why I can't think - it's 1pm and I haven't had a ciggie all day :-* :-* :-* :P
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Do you think the unaccustomed heat is getting to us and slowing us up? :)
Temperatures here in England are 21degrees C + today and the sky is blue.
Maybe the garden is proving more tempting than the PC, as posts to this thread have slowed up a little!
MR - time to get the whip out!
cheers
Paul
Thanks Paul! My own garden's in dire need of weeding, and the housework is building up ominously - I don't object at all if folk need a breathing space to take in the incredible amount of information we've amassed so far!
Now shhh! If I don't do some flute practice before Friday, I'm going to be in serious trouble, so please type your posts QUIETLY for the next half-hour....
Rambler
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I am going to post these and I apologise to those who think this is spoiling the game. But anyone out there with Master Seaman can see what a great lot of info is out there.
DUNCAN DUNBAR MOLISON:
A reg'd Captain with Lloyds Cert no. 29.670 first issued London 1869.
His record of service at sea was extracted from the registers of Lloyds Ships Captains held at the Guildhall Library, London
1869
'Celia' till July 27th
'Medway' till Sept 23rd.
1870
'Sabrina' 2 voyages Out 1 March, back May 7, and out May 12 and back Aug 14.
1871
'Medora" Jan 11-June 11
'Sabrina' Aug 2-Nov 21
1873
Capt 'Great Eastern' Lloyds ships register for Captains at the Guildhall Library shows the entries against DDM's name as '21891 NA May 5. US Sept 19.' This indicates he sailed her to the United States on that date. (from 1865-1874, the Great Eastern submerged 5 Trans.-Atlantic lines and repaired 4 of them in mid-ocean) 1873 Jun. 6, sailed from Valencia to Hearts Content
1874
Aug. 23, arrives at Hearts Content to lay cable West to East
1874
Aug. 26, begins laying cable West to East to Valencia (took 2 weeks)
1874 ?
Sails to Millhaven to be "mothballed". Stays until 1876 when it assists in making 2 dry docks
ARTICLES: #1
'IN THE 1860'S, the 'Great Eastern' was the only ship large enough to carry the single length of cable needed to span the Atlantic. She began life in 1858 as the Leviathan, designed by Isambard Kingdom Brunel. She was used as a passenger ship on the Australia and Far East route and her name was changed to Great Eastern. However, this route was not a financial success and by 1864 she was in dock.
On the 4th April 1864, the cable manufacturers Glass Elliot of Greenwich came to an arrangement with the Great Eastern Steamship Company and her new life as a cableship began. She laid the successful Atlantic cable of 1866 with James Anderson as her captain. In 1872 the Great Eastern was docked in Liverpool. She rusted away until she was scrapped in 1888.
The Great Eastern weighed 18,000 tons and was 700 feet long and 85 feet wide. When converted into a cableship she had three enormous cable tanks.
The only known photograph of the commander and ship's officers of the Great Eastern. It was taken on November 5, 1869.'
NOTE: This article is clearly wrong on its dates. The ship was at sea extensively in 1873 and 1874
ARTICLES: #2
The Great Eastern was the largest steamship in the world in the second half of the 19th century. Launched in 1858, the Great Eastern was unsurpassed in length until White Star's Oceanic II in 1899 and not in displacement until Cunard's Lusitania in 1906.
The ship was designed by the British engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunel and constructed for the Eastern Steam Navigation Company.
The ship took five years to build, had a displacement of 22,500 tons, a length of 211 meters (693 ft), a width of 37 meters (120 ft), and a depth of hull of 18 meters (58 ft).
The iron hull had both screw and paddle wheel propulsion, with auxiliary power from 5435 square m (6500 square yd) of sail on six masts. The masts were named after the days of the week (Monday, Tuesday..)
The ship had five funnels, each 100 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. The two paddle wheels were 58 feet in diameter, and the propeller 24 feet.
The Eastern Steam Navigation Company was a British corporation formed in 1852 to maintain an ocean steam route from Great Britain to Australia around the Cape of Good Hope. In 1853 the directors concluded that, because of the cost of maintaining coaling stations on the way, such a route would not pay unless the carrier could carry enough coal for the voyage out and home, besides a large number of passengers and a sizable cargo. The result was the Great Eastern.
Despite the elaborate planning for the Great Eastern and the renown it gained because of its size, the vessel did not make a financial success as a passenger vessel. It is best remembered as the ship that laid the first successful Atlantic cable and several other cables. The ship was dismantled in 1889.
With the help of your imagination we hope to give you a glimpse of 1858, the year the great Eastern was completed.
Brunel built the ship for a side launch. Due to a number of factors, the difficulty of getting the ship from the building ways and into the water became an immense undertaking. The Great Eastern was initially called the "Leviathan".
1874
Richmond
Arratoon Apcar
1875
Arratoon Apcar to Uruguay again.
1876
Ostrich
1877
Earl of Aberdeen
1878
Merlin
Dragon from 25 July 1878
New Cert issued C07666
1880
Clan Frazer
1881
Flamingo
Dryburgh Abbey
1882
Dryburgh Abbey
1883
Abydos
1884
Petrarch
Mula
1885
Lutetia
The record in the book ends there. They were the original books kept by Lloyds. DDM only qualified for steam, and not for sail. To have captained the Great Eastern must have been a great thrill.
That's it.
Pam
;D
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I'm going to totally change the subject from the Molisons so Pam can you tell me when you finish this thread and then I'll check in with my next bit.
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Thanks Pam!!
Somebody has done an awful lot of work - there is NO WAY we could have got a tenth of that - I'm amazed that people even think to write that down - my family will have an awful time with me - for that very reason - I don't keep diaries or logs or journals or anything like that - and it is so cool to read other people's information - fascinating ....!
I'm imagining Yul Brynner taking charge of a sheep!!
Thanks so much for sharing that :-*
Annie
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Paul - I reckon we should all retire to the garden with a stiff drink to digest all the above info ;D
I don't know if this has been posted before
1881 RG11/0134 Folio 40 page 21 29 Margaret St., Marlebone, London
Annie Horndey (Houndey) (?) - Unm 75 Householder b: Somerset
Alice M Robertson visitor Unm 22 Lady of Means b: London
Susan :)
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So much stuff there Pam, really informative, I'm a bit like Annie, like to know where and what the ships are doing, so many places they must have seen, although I don't know whether I'd like to have been a wife of one of these guys, you would never know where you were going to have your next child, on dry land or water.
Now my thread back to Charles children again, that is these people who like to confuse us, with ages, names and other stuff. I know we have the Ewing name running through this thread but do we have any connected with Nottingham? The only mention of Nottingham I can find is where Claude was at school. But then this is a widow, soI suppose that could explain it, or maybe her name is just a coincidence.
September 1877 Liverpool 8b 450
TAYLOR William JOHNSON Jessie Liverpool, Register Office Liverpool
Source LancashireBMD – extracted from Parish Registers so “Register Office” ceremony may well mean that this marriage took place in a Catholic Church and the registrar attended.
RG11/3639 Toxteth Park Folio 34 Page 2
1881 10 Upper Hill Street, Toxteth Park
William Taylor Head Mar 28 Ship Carpenter Scotland
Jessie Wife M 28 Lancashire Liverpool
James Son 1 “ “
John Allan Boarder Unm 23 Ship Carpenter Scotland
RG12/2926 Toxteth Park, Folio 108 Page 46
1891 6 Upper Hill Street, Toxteth Park
William G Taylor Head M 37 Shipwright Born at Sea
Janet Wife M 38 Liverpool
Margaret G daug 13 scholar “ “
James D son 11 “ “
Jessie A dau 8 “ “
Harriet B “ 6 “ “
Florence V “ 3 “
Amy E “ 1month “
William Evans Boarder S 29 Break Examiner ? ? N Wales Brymbo
George H “ S 18 Plumber Manchester
Annie Ewing “ Widow 38 Stewardess Nottingham
RG13/3433 Toxteth Park Folio 104 Page 1
1901 6 Upper Hill Street, Toxteth Park
William Taylor Head M 47 Shipwright Scotland
Jessie Wife M 48 Lancs Liverpool
James Son S 21 Ships Engineer “ “
Jessie daur S 18 Dressmaker “ “
Harriet “ 16 Milliner “ “
Florence “ 13 “ “
Amy “ 11 “ “
Annie “ 7 “ “
Once again we seem to have a missing child in 1881, we SHOULD have a 3 year old Margaret with them and how on earth has Jessie suddenly changed to Janet? I thought he had remarried until I found them in 1901.
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Pam - there's no way that 'spoils the game': that level of information would have taken months for someone to assemble and our task is helped if we can use the researches of others.
Now... Liverpool Annie has dug up an interesting record of entry to to San Francisco of a Douglas Robertson, born London 1 May 1901, on the SS Siberia Maru in September 1919. Shown as the son of a US citizen, destination Leavensworth Kansas.
I *think* the record we have for Douglas' birth is an IGI submission.
Definately worth keeping an eye on ths one - thanks Annie!
Paul
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You know what Mary?? I've been looking at that but I just couldn't figure it out - I was confused with Janet and Jessie - but I think you're right :P
Good girl!!
I think I have Margaret somewhere - see I need your organizational skills !
Annie:P :P
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Parents William Taylor and Jessie
Jessie Helena Taylor Christened 30 JUL 1882 St Peter'S, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Harriet Taylor b 26 Apr 1885 Christened 21 June 1885 St Peter's Liverpool Lancashire
Here's an interesting bit
Amy Euing Taylor March qtr 1891 Toxteth Park 8b 243
This is a possible, based on the census entry "V" for middle name
Florence Victoria Taylor March qtr 1886 Liverpool 8b 81
There are two possible William James Taylors in September qtr 1880 Liverpool, 8b 62 and 8b 11
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I've been looking for Allan - you know our original guy.........!!
I have this and he's travelling with a female aged 39 - initials FMC Robertson - does that ring any bells with anybody ???
Name: A Robertson
Arrival Date: 10 Apr 1890
Estimated Birth Year: 1873
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination: United States of America
Place of Origin: England
Ship Name: Majestic
Port of Arrival: New York
Line: 37
Microfilm Roll: 545
List Number: 448
Would this work d'you think??
Annie
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Got no organisational skills here, I keep bobbing about too much, it's a scouse trait yanno! but I hae' me doots about us finding Margaret, there's ALWAYS one of these blasted Robertsons missing on a census. The only one with Toxteth as a keyword is daughter of another family. There's quite a number of others born Lancashire but you never know we might find one with a relative.
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Just checked back to our beginning Annie, it would only work if he returned within the year to be in Little Meols for the census in 1891.
-
Once again we seem to have a missing child in 1881, we SHOULD have a 3 year old Margaret with them and how on earth has Jessie suddenly changed to Janet? I thought he had remarried until I found them in 1901.
Have to think how this might fit in, but Jessie is/was a pet form of Janet, particularly in Scotland, even if they're regarded as separate names now.
Can't see Annie Ewing on any other census!
Rambler
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I thought this thread was supposed to be the Onedin Line?
With all these Ewings popping up I'm starting to think its Dallas! :)
On a more serious note, does anyone have any views as to whether Douglas, son of Alan, might have enlisted in WW1?
Towards the end of the war he may have been old enough to be involved in the war.
As for Annie's finding of an Alan visiting America in 1890, I think tis very feasible. The fact that he may have been back in Meols in 1891 wouldn't concern me - I think this family enjoyed travelling!
Paul
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MR we have to remember that this is Jessie Robertson Johnson too, just to complicate matters further.
Do our Ewings have any connection with Fife. Wondering about a connection with
1881 Curators House Botanical Gardens Eccleshall Bierlow Sheffield
John Ewing Head Wid 66 Curator of Botanical Gardens Scotland Fife
Mary E daur Unm 26 Notts Worksop
Eveline M " " 19 Yorks Sheffield
Jane Tummor Serv Unm 20 General Servant " "
There could have been a brother who married Annie, which would fit in right for age. If this is too far fetched I won't follow it further.
Ewings and Dallas, check the text, we've had any number of JR's popping up and I'm sure there was a Bobbie in the shower last time I looked.
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Looking for Margaret - I found these - ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Name - Muir, Reginald Luckock
Record Type - Marriages
Quarter - September
Year - 1892
District - Newcastle upon Tyne
County - Northumberland
Volume 10b
Page 159
1891 County Durham (S Shields RD)
Address 56 Croft Terrace Name Reginald L MUIR Relationship to head Boarder Condition S Age 21 Occupation Marine Engineer Drau Birth Place India, – PRO Piece 4166 Folio 72 Page – Census Place Jarrow Monkton & Hebburn District South Shields Sub district South Shields
World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918
Name - James Jennings Muir
Age - 23
Home address - Logan Utah
Birthplace Cardiff Wales - American subject
Birth Date - 3 Jun 1894
Present trade - Ranch hand
Employer - Chas O' Bannon
Address - Cokeville ?
County - Lincoln
State Wyoming
Dependents - Mother
note - missing one finger
Dated - June 5th 1917
Roll 2022241
Talking about WW1 reminded me - I did check registration cards - for all the Robertson boys who were eligible including Douglas - and the Muirs - I even checked for CLAUDE ::) ::) ::)
Annie
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The National Archives list a medal card for Douglas M Robertson, Acting Sergeant in the Tank Corps, but I think the rank's a bit high for a teenager? There is also a D M Robertson, Private in the Rifle Brigade.
Of course, not all WW1 records survived, and he might be listed just as Douglas, in which case I don't know how we could identifiy him.
Rambler
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And I kept this for a reason but I can't remember what :P
Name Janet Robertson
Age 25
Occupation -
BirthPlace Scotland
Borough West Derby Ward,
Parish or Township Toxteth Park
Ecclesiastical Parish St.Thomas
Piece No & Part 2187/1
Folio 0227
Don't yell at me - you never know :o :o
Annie
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And you say you aren't focussed Annie! :o seems to me you have all avenues covered.
Well I looked for a Ewing brother to that family, connected to Nottingham .....
RG10/4671 Eccleshall Brierlow Folio 79 Page 29
1871 Curators House, Botanical Gardens, Eccleshall, Sheffield
John Ewing Head M 56 Gardener Scotland
Elizabeth Wife M 54 Huntingdon Water Newton
Henry Son Unm 24 Bankers Clerk Notts Worksop
Mary E daur 16 Scholar " "
Harriet " 14 " " "
Evelyn M " 9 " Yorks Eccleshall
Charlotte Linton Servant Unm 18 General Servant Domestic Yorks Brookes
Makes me wonder, but there are no marriage entries for a Henry Ewing and an Ann between 1871 and 1881 that I can find.
-
Wouldn't dream of yelling ;D ;D just a little question .......... what does it relate to? ?
I don't honestly think our Jessie has been registered at birth as a Janet as we have a birth entry to confuse us with middle name Robertson. ???
-
The National Archives list a medal card for Douglas M Robertson, Acting Sergeant in the Tank Corps, but I think the rank's a bit high for a teenager? There is also a D M Robertson, Private in the Rifle Brigade.
Of course, not all WW1 records survived, and he might be listed just as Douglas, in which case I don't know how we could identifiy him.
Rambler
We can probably assume Douglas has been public school educated - or is this rash?
In that case, being a Sergeant at a young age might not be so improbable.
I can smell us getting closer to Dougie!
Paul
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See -
I keep little snippets of information - then I can't remember what the heck I kept them for - OR - which is more usual - I don't know WHO they are - I just know they seemed good at the time ::) ::) ::) ::)
Now THAT'S good organization....... :P :P :P
Annie
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I think I've totally lost the plot on people I'm not focussed on at any particular moment. Feel like I'm going round and round in circles. I just had to read back to figure out which Douglas we were talking about.
We are talking Allan's son right? as in the apprentice Cotton Broker - how much would they earn? or would Charlotte have money from her family to be able to privately educate him? and where could this have taken place? could it be another journey into Scottish records maybe for a school?
Annie - the best! ::)
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Hi Mary
Yes, I've been trying to trace forward from Douglas (Alan's son) as I thing its our best way of finding a living relative who migth know something about the family. But not much luck yet!
cheers
Paul
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Excuse me JR in the Bathtub :o :o :o :o :o
I don't know about Dougie - but Claude was in school
Name Claude ROBERTSON Relationship Boarder Condition – Gender M Age 13 Occupation School Boy Birthplace London Camberwell, London, Middlesex, Address 35 Gateford Road, Worksop, Nottingham
WOOHOO I got to say his name in context ....
Annie
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From ASM's voyages:
'2 February 1855
Signs a Power of Attorney in favour of his 'half brother' James Molison, then resident in Sydney.'
Found in will search on scotlandspeople:
Will at Stonehaven sheriff Court
'James Molison 10 Dec 1869
Residing at Sydney, thereafter Commission Agent in London, thereafter residing at Craigshaw in County of Kincardine'
A James Molison died 1869 at Nigg aged 53
Nigg is south Aberdeen on the city border with the old county Kincardine. Craigshaw Drive, Road and Crescent are roads nearby, mainly industrial estate.
Looking for James therefore born 1816:
IGI parish record:
James Molison chr 23 Dec 1816 Fraserburgh son of William M Molison and Margaret Davidson.
William Maule Molison married Margaret Davidson 15 Feb 1813 Nigg
Other children found so far, all chr at Fraserburgh:
27 Apr 1814 Robert Davidson
24 apr 1819 Christian daughter
23 Oct 1820 Saltoun son
19 June 1822 Margaret Maria.
For anyone unsure of north east Scotland Fraserburgh is further north up the coast. I have a day off next Monday and will try to get into Aberdeen library for a search for anything useful on this bunch.
Jo
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I've just been reading about officer training on the excellent "Long Long Trail" website http://www.1914-1918.net/training.htm
"In February 1916, a new system of training for officers was introduced, after which, temporary commissions could only be granted if a man had been through an Officer Cadet unit. Entrants would have to be aged over 18 and a half, and to have served as a ranker or to have been with an OTC. "
Douglas was only 18 and a half in mid-1918, which doesn't leave much time for training and commission before the Armistice. Perhaps just enough, so I suppose we can't rule it out.
Rambler
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Well done Jo, good connecting. Saltoun? what an unusual name. Would that Christian be the same one as mentioned before or just a coincidence of names?
-
Jo
You're so good at coming up with this stuff - I'm so proud of you!!
Annie
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James Molison married Isabella Anne Forsyth in Elgin, Moray on 18 Jul 1849. 2 children I've found so far:
Margaret Molison - chr. 28 Aug 1851, Stockwell, Surrey
Annie Forsyth Molison - 22 Jan 1854, Balwain, New South Wales, Australia.
I know it's not Allan Robertson's direct family, but we haven't had anyone born in the Antipodes so far on this thread!
Just noticed I've acquired veteran status since stating the June Challenge - no grey hairs that I can see, though.
Rambler
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Delving further back:
IGI parish records: all at Nigg
Margaret Davidson chr 1 Aug 1789 parents Robert Davidson and Christian Philp
parents married 13 June 1784
other children:
Robert 4 Jan 1783
Katharine 21 Aug 1784
Alexander 29 March 1786
James 22 Oct 1787
Isobel 28 Aug 1791
Our Alexander Strachan molison (ASM) was born 1802/3. The info we've had is that William Maule Molison is his father so that would make Margaret Davidson his step mum.
On with the search ....
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Congrats on both counts MR, the family is spreading to every part of the world.
Jessie Robertson Johnson born 1858
Charles Robertson Johnson born 1857
Does anybody have an opinion about these two names, do you think they might have been illegitimate and Alice gave them their father's name in the middle?
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Congratulations on Veteranhood, MR - I think we all knew you had it in you! At the rate this thread is developing, I think we can predict another star by the end of the month!
Hmm - back to Douglas - useful information re officer training.
Of course, Douglas may have lied about his age. I'll try to check 1837Online tomorrow to determine the Quarter when Douglas was registered.
What is clear from this whole thread is that there are an awful lot of user-submitted IGI records. As someone remarked earlier, someone has gone to a lot of trouble to collect records about these people!
cheers
Paul
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I just know that these people are connected - but I'm going doodle alley - so please could you take a look and see if they work
Elizabeth J. ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition W Gender F Age 53 Occupation Annuitant Birthplace Stratford Le Bow, Middlesex Address 59 Up Gloster Pl, London, Middlesex
George ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 28 Occupation Bankers Clerk Birthplace Stratford Le Bow, Middlesex Address 59 Up Gloster Pl, London, Middlesex
Henry Douglas ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 23 Occupation Accountants Clerk Birthplace Marylebone Address 59 Up Gloster Pl, London, Middlesex
Emma DALE Relationship Sister Condition U Gender F Age 49 Occupation Annuitant Birthplace Stratford Le Bow, Middlesex, Address 59 Up Gloster Pl, London, Middlesex
Thanks
Annie
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Congrats on both counts MR, the family is spreading to every part of the world.
Jessie Robertson Johnson born 1858
Charles Robertson Johnson born 1857
Does anybody have an opinion about these two names, do you think they might have been illegitimate and Alice gave them their father's name in the middle?
Unfortunately there is an IGI extracted christening record giving Jessie's parents as Charles Johnson and Alice - I don't know how we can get round that one.
Jessie Robertson Johnson - b. 17 Nov 1858, chr. 28 May 1861 Saint Peter, Liverpool
Hmmm... She was christened after the 1861 census, where Alice is "wife", but her husband isn't with her. I wonder if the father was actually present in church?
Rambler
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Annie - Colin Douglas Robertson (c1823), son of Allan's uncle George Robertson, married Elizabeth Jane Dale, and had children George, Hannah Mary and Henry Douglas. Elizabeth's unmarried sister Emma lived with them.
Rambler
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Now here's a challenge, can we ever link William Maule Molison back this far??? ::)
MAULE
Local: from the town of Maule in France. Gaurin de Maule came into England with William the Conqueror; his descendant, William de Maule, settled in Scotland, temp. David I, where he received a grant of the lordship of Foulis, in which he was succeeded by his nephew, Sir Richard de Maule, who was the ancestor of the Scottish family of Maule.
Jo
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Oh pleeeseeeeeeee Jo no!! - not another family.......!!
http://www.maulefamily.com/
:P :P :P :P
Who was it that talked about Charlemagne (?) was it Sedona???
-
Only one Charles likely in 1881.
RG11/3629 Liverpool Islington Folio 63 Page 12
4-9 Blandford Street, Liverpool
Charles Johnson Boarder Unm 25 Seaman Liverpool.
I wonder if its coincidence that the Head is Lilly Johnson Unm 23 Dressmaker born Liverpool
On FreeBMD marriage between Charles Johnson and Jessie Brownlow Dec qtr 1888 West Derby 8b 904.
1891 RG12/2889 Birkenhead Tranmere Folio 16 Page 25
Tranmere, Birkenhead
16 Well Lane
Madge Hurst Aunt Wid 40 Living on her own means Dublin
William Brownlow Father in Law Widr 60 “ Liverpool Lancashire
Charles Johnson Head M 36 Stock & Share Broker “ “
Jessie Wife M 22 Edinburgh
At the moment I've come to a stop, no trace in 1901, will have to pick this up tomorrow as I'm off to water the grass now, got to go find the hosepipe in the garage without walking on the floor as I think we have a mouse in there eeeeeeek :-\ and then I'm going to bed, yawwwn, Night everyone.
Mary
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Think we could find some relatives in here ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/SALEM.HTM
Lordy lordy lordy......................
Annie
'nite Mary!!
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Congrats on both counts MR, the family is spreading to every part of the world.
Jessie Robertson Johnson born 1858
Charles Robertson Johnson born 1857
Does anybody have an opinion about these two names, do you think they might have been illegitimate and Alice gave them their father's name in the middle?
Went back into local R.O. to look again for births of Charles M Robertson's (1830) children, two years either side of given dates can't find any of them ???
After staring at fiche for a view hours I am goggle eyed. ::)
Susan
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Oops not quoted a "quote" before doesn't look quite right :o
Think I'd better go to bed ;D
Susan
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Antipodean MOLISONs
I noticed mention (in the four pages since last I looked!) of a half-brother James MOLISON in Sydney (ASM - "2 February 1855 Signs a Power of Attorney in favour of his 'half brother' James Molison, then resident in Sydney.." and "7 January 1863 Sells his land in Wollongong New South Wales to James Waddell Frazer for 100 pounds. The deed of conveyance signed under Power of Attorney by his half brother James Molison.")
This will be the James MOLISON Rambler mentioned a couple of pages back as follows:
"James Molison married Isabella Anne Forsyth in Elgin, Moray on 18 Jul 1849. 2 children I've found so far:
Margaret Molison - chr. 28 Aug 1851, Stockwell, Surrey
Annie Forsyth Molison - 22 Jan 1854, Balwain, New South Wales, Australia"
There were Antipodean MOLISONs in the 1881 census on FamilySearch which I couldn't tie in earlier but we now find that they are linked (and one is named Osbert - wasn't there an Osbert FORSYTH or some such name mentioned at one stage?).
Anyway, an exact spelling search for MOLISON in the 1881 census on FamilySearch only brings up 20 names. As an aide-memoire, I'll list the family with Antipodean connexions. It is in Lewisham Kent and comprises:
- Osbert W MOLISON, Head, 25, b Sydney Australia, Commercial Clerk
- Isabella E. MOLISON, Sister, U, 30, b Kennington, Surrey, England
- Annie F. MOLISON, Sister, U, 27, b Balmain, Australia
(Balmain is a suburb of Sydney)
- Mildred F. MOLISON, Sister, U, 18, b Woolhara(sic), Australia
(Woollahra is a suburb of Sydney)
- Jeanie W. MOLISON, Sister, U, 14, b Upper Holloway, Middlesex, England
- Florence WATSON, Visitor, U, 25, b Hammersmith, Middlesex, England
- and 2 servants.
Noticing that birth in Holloway, Middlesex, I suspect that the following lad is a member of the same family:
At school in Lancing as a Boarder:
- Robert J MOLISON, 12, b Holloway, Middlesex
The following births (I didn't find any marriages or deaths) are in the New South Wales BDM at:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
To James MOLISON and Isabella A (this will be Isabella Anne FORSYTH)
1854 Annie F
1856 Osbert W
1860 Allan D
1862 Annie F
1862 Mildred F
1865 Saltoun F
There's that forename Saltoun! It was mentioned a few pages back - IGI extracted entry is: Saltoun MOLISON chr 23 Oct 1820, Fraserburgh Aberdeen, parents Wm M MOLISON and Margt DAVIDSON
JAP
PS: Isabella Ann FORSYTH chr 12 Mar 1826, Saint Mathew, Brixton, London, parents Osbert FORSYTH and Isabella.
Osbert FORSYTH married Isabella REID, 6 Nov 1819, Banff, Banff, Scotland
(both extracted entris from IGI)
PPS: a couple of entries from FreeBMD
Death, Jun qtr 1879 - Isabella Anne MOLISON, age 54, Isle of Wight(?)
Death, Dec qtr 1882 - Osbert William MOLISON, age 26, Hastings
PPPS: a couple of facts which we had earlier in the thread (one just a page or so back!) and which I'd forgotten about (it's getting so hard to keep track of it all).
1. Alexander Strachan MOLISON ("our" Allan's maternal grandfather) was thought to have been illegitimate. It seems to be accepted that William Maule MOLISON (we already have JoT's challenge of trying to link William back to Gaurin de Maule who came with William the Conqueror!) was ASM's father ( i.e. "our" Allan's maternal ggfather) but there doesn't seem to be any record of ASM's birth/christening or of his mother's name (there's a challenge - find "our" Allan's maternal ggrandmother!). ASM was born ca 1802 when William Maule MOLISON was supposed to have been about 21. WMM married Margaret DAVIDSON in 1813 and had several children including James MOLISON - so that's why James (who went to the Antipodes) b 1816 is referred to as ASM's 'half-brother'.
2. JoT (more great work) found (a page or so back) the death of half-brother James, age 53, in 1869 in Nigg, Kincardine; also his Will - "James Molison 10 Dec 1869 Residing at Sydney, thereafter Commission Agent in London, thereafter residing at Craigshaw in County of Kincardine"
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This is the most comprehensive site I have found - that lists casualties of the Boer War - there are Robertsons on there - but I was just looking for Claude in particular - I'm posting it in case anybody wants to check more -
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/kevinasplin/home.html
This man has worked so hard on this site and is keeping us safe at the same time - Thanks Kevin.. ;)
Thanks to Ryan this is a find.... all ships in port 1881
http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/81Intro.html
And MickeyM's terrific find
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/
I know I shouldn't be just giving site addresses but these are just so good - for all of us to bookmark - hope you agree
Annie
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Another busy 'night' on the Rootschat Challenge - great links Annie (and mickey and Ryan!). I've lost track of the number of families we are now hunting - Six Degrees of Separation springs to mind though :)
Paul
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Has anyone been able to check the Texas birth records on Ancestry to see if we have any additional Robertsons born to Alan and Charlotte between 1901 and 1913?
Wonder if Charlotte died in childbirth?
Paul
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Hi Paul
I couldn't find any - but I sort of concentrated on Rice Navarro and surrounding areas because that's where Charlotte died .... if you have any suggestions of where else to look .................................... ::)
I couldn't find her death there either - apart from what we have here - no tombstones obits nada..!! It's funny though even though it was supposed to be a cotton town - no mention of the Robertson's........ !I'm wondering if that's even HER....... !!
Annie
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Ah well, Annie!
I've just found this site on Toxteth - a labour of love:
http://www.toxteth.net/index.htm
No obvious mentions of Robertsons, but lots of collateral information about the area.
cheers
Paul
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I'm going to have a good look at that Toxteth site I have quite a few relatives there....
Have a good day you guys - it's time for bed here...............!!
Annie
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Nice to wake up and find leads have been followed up during the night!
Love the Australian connection.
Saltoun, as far as I can see, is usually a surname, so it's perhaps worth keeping an eye open for it in connection with either the Molison or Davidson family. (Margaret Davidson, wife of William Maule Molison, and mother of the first Saltoun we came across.)
I agree it's getting hard to keep track with so much info, so I'll try and post a Molison summary some time today. But I really MUST do the ironing first!
Rambler
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Has anyone been able to check the Texas birth records on Ancestry to see if we have any additional Robertsons born to Alan and Charlotte between 1901 and 1913?
Wonder if Charlotte died in childbirth?
Paul
Charlotte's death was a user-submitted IGI record, so we don't know how accurate it is, but all other details on the same submission have been confirmed, I think.
One possibility we haven't considered is that Charlotte perhaps travelled with Allan on his trips to the US, and may have died in the US without being a permanent resident there.
Rambler
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Morning all, this getting up early to check this site before going out is murder, missing half a night's sleep here, by choice! :P
Thanks for those useful links everybody has posted and especially Annie's for the Boer War and I will find it useful in my own research.
Lots of good stuff JAP, this is where my Word doc comes in useful, back on Page 20 Jonathan posted
Married
On the 18th inst. at the Greyfriars Elgin ..... James Molison Esq Commander of the ship Collingwood to Isabella Anne elder daughter of Osbert Forsyth Esq late of Clapham Rise.
The Times 23 July 1849
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<snip>, this is where my Word doc comes in useful, back on Page 20 Jonathan posted
Married
On the 18th inst. at the Greyfriars Elgin ..... James Molison Esq Commander of the ship Collingwood to Isabella Anne elder daughter of Osbert Forsyth Esq late of Clapham Rise.
The Times 23 July 1849
MaryA, I did see that when I was checking today; I even still have in my head that it was page 20 and I had intended to mention it when I mentioned MR's reference to the marriage - but then I forgot to do so (sorry Jonathan!). I guess part of the challenge is not having the Word document!
MR, that chap is William Maule MOLISON. Googling for Saltoun finds a few place names (I guess it could be variously spelled) esp a parish in East Lothian which is probably the original source. But more directly (given the Fraserburgh etc locations we've seen) it is probably linked to the Lords of Saltoun of the Fraserburgh region. It seems that the current Head of Clan Fraser is the 20th Lady Saltoun (of the Frasers of Pilorth, now Saltoun). Well, that's what a quick Google seems to find!
Apart from tracing forwards, we still have plenty of "our" Allan's ancestry to find - we have to prove the ancestry of George ROBERTSON snr and his wife Mary. Not to mention finding the mother of the (illegitimate?) Alexander Strachan MOLISON and tracing the Maule of William Maule MOLISON back to the time of William the Conqueror... And now we also have to find the Saltoun link ... Just as well we have plenty of June left ; )
JAP
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Sorry for the typo JAP, but I think you understood what I meant?
Give me time to put a summary together, so that all the essential details are in one place for reference - I'm doing my best, but do have other commitments...
Rambler
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Just a thought, and apologies if this is said in the last pages (I'm still trying to get through it all without getting caught by eagle-eyed managers LOL).
Are we still looking for Allan's paternal grandparents?
There's a James Robertson on the 1861, born slightly later than 1843 - 1845 in fact. But he is born in Camberwell, like Allan. The other linking factor is that he (at the age of 16) is a 'Boy 2 Class' aboard the ship the Nile.
Once again, apologies if this has already been found, but could this be Allan's father on the 1861? It could help in finding his parents maybe?
Mads
xxxxxx
Update: Sorry, just finally managed to reach some kind of confirmation about this being wrong (circa P26 I believe). 'Pologies!
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Anyone who can follow the plot of this thread without being misled by the various red herrings we've chased at different times is doing very well indeed! Paul called it the Onedin Line, but wth a touch of Dallas thrown in! (The famous Ewing connection...)
For an up to date summary of the Robertson and Molison families, see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=62822.msg262749#msg262749
(Newest Robertson info in blue.)
Of course, there's a wealth of detail about the Molisons in the info Pam has posted, but for the bare bones of the family this should help show how it all fits together.
Let me know if I've made any howlers!
Rambler
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Am I right in thinking that we don't have info on Helen Robertson (Allan's aunt) post 1851?
I found a possible marriage of a Helen Robertson Sep 1852 in Stepney 1c 923
also on the page is a James Ewing...
In 1861 in Liverpool RG9/2683 are a:
James Ewing bn 1819 Scotland head
Helen Ewing bn 1821 X, Middlesex, wife
Willm. Ewing bn 1854 Liverpool
John O bn 1855 "
George R bn 1856 "
Archibald O bn 1858 "
Hugh M R Ewing bn 1860 "
The names of the sons would seem to suggest that it is Allans auntie Helen.
Emily
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Helen must have died between 1861 and 1871 though I think as James seems to have a new wife Sarah and be living in London in 1871.
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And she's married a Ewing! Another one!
Nice one Emily - Scottish naming patterns can be really helpful, although they can also give several people of the same generation the same name, like our friend Archibald Robertson...
I've been playing with the middle names index menioned earlier, trying to find combinations of names which crop up in the family, but nothing conclusive so far.(http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/)
Rambler
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Just thought I'd let you know that I e-mailed a person in Oz who's related to Rev. Thomas Vial Cornell and is wanting to know more about the Cornell's and (especially) the Molisons.
Just wondered if she could shed any light on ASM.........
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Some of James Ewing and Helen Robertson's chidren from Free BMD:
Sep qtr 1853 - William EWING - Liverpool 8b 160
Jun qtr 1856 - George Robertson EWING - Liverpool 8b 174
Mar 1860 - Hugh Moody Robertson EWING - Liverpool 8b 156
I make that 5 Hugh Moodys named after the original one so far!
Rambler
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On the 1891 census, Archibald Orr Ewing a married man of 33, is a visitor (minus wife and/or kids) in the household of Alfred Sharp in Bromley. Archibald's occupation is given as "missionary of outreach".
(RG12/630 - Folio 94- Pg 5)
Also in 1891, John Orr Ewing (36) is living on his own means in Preston Deanery, Northamptonshire.
Family:
Wife - Edith Alice Ewing (36), b. Ealing
Dau - Helen C D Orr Ewing (11), b. Bedford
Dau - Edith W Orr Ewing (1), b. Preston Deanery, Northamptonshire
(RG12/1192 - Folio 116 - Pg 2)
Rambler
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This says Isabella E but we have Isabella Anne........ hope we don't have this already..!!
Kent 1881
Osbert W. MOLISON Relationship Head Condition U Gender M Age 25 Occupation Commercial Clerk Birthplace Sydney, Australia Address 10 Mayow Rd, Lewisham, Kent
Isabella E. MOLISON Relationship Sister Condition U Gender F Age 30 Occupation – Birthplace Kennington, Surrey Address 10 Mayow Rd, Lewisham, Kent
Annie F. MOLISON Relationship Sister Condition U Gender F Age 27 Occupation – Birthplace Balmain, Australia Address 10 Mayow Rd, Lewisham, Kent
Mildred F. MOLISON Relationship Sister Condition U Gender F Age 18 Occupation – Birthplace Woolhara, Australia Address 10 Mayow Rd, Lewisham, Kent
Jeanie W. MOLISON Relationship Sister Condition U Gender F Age 14 Occupation – Birthplace Upper Holloway, Middlesex, Address 10 Mayow Rd, Lewisham, Kent
Florence WATSON Relationship Visitor Condition U Gender F Age 25 Occupation – Birthplace Hammersmith, Middlesex Address 10 Mayow Rd, Lewisham, Kent
Henrietta MOSS Relationship Servant Condition U Gender F Age 23 Occupation Cook Domestic Birthplace Little Linton, Cambridge Address 10 Mayow Rd, Lewisham, Kent
Alice FLEETWOOD Relationship Servant Condition – Gender F Age 19 Occupation Housemaid Domestic Birthplace Norwood, Surrey, Address 10 Mayow Rd, Lewisham, Kent
Annie
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This says Isabella E but we have Isabella Anne........ hope we don't have this already..!!
Annie
These are James Molison and Isabella Ann Forsyth's children - see previous page.
Rambler
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A Lyte connection (remember them? ;)) on GenesReunited has promised to pour himself a glass of wine and have a look at this thread at the weekend. Think he'll need a case of the stuff?
Paul
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Following up James Ewing, who has 2 sons with middle name Orr. According to the 1871 census, he was born in Glasgow c1819. The IGI has a user-submitted birth record for James Ewing, son of William Ewing and Susan Orr, b. Glasgow, 27 Feb 1820.
All children listed in the IGI for William Ewing and Susan (or Susannah) Orr:
William Ewing - 06 Aug 1806, Baldernock, Stirling
Agnes Ewing - 24 Jan 1808, Baldernock, Stirling
John Orr Ewing - 14 Jul 1809, Baldernock, Stirling
Alexander Ewing - 03 Mar 1811, Baldernock, Stirling
William Ewing - 16 Feb 1813, Baldernock, Stirling
Walter Ewing - 27 Dec 1814, Baldernock, Stirling
William Ewing - 24 Apr 1816, Baldernock, Stirling
Archibald Ewing - 04 Jan 1818, Baldernock, Stirling
James Ewing - 27 Feb 1819, Baldernock, Stirling
Duncan Leckie Ewing - 23 Feb 1820, Baldernock, Stirling
James Ewing - 27 Feb 1820, Glasgow, Lanark
Susan Orr Ewing - 12 Oct 1821, Glasgow, Lanark
Isabella Buchanan Ewing - 09 Oct 1823, Glasgow, Lanark
The last 3 entries are user-submitted; the others are extracted records.
The same family or not?
Middle names Leckie and Buchanan associated with Ewing - remind anyone of Christian Leckie Ewing's family? (The wife of Archibald Robertson, cashier.)
Biog of John Orr Ewing: http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/100men/gm33.htm Brother Archibald also mentioned.
Rambler
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Emily and MR,
Stunning stuff about all those EWING connexions with Robertson and Moody and Orr forenames! I can't think straight now - more than past my bedtime - but will see if I can make anything further out of it tomorrow.
Propinquity certainly seems to be the thing!
And I always like anything that takes us to Stirlingshire ; )
Liverpool Annie,
Yes we do have the full 1881 census details with Osbert MOLISON as Head (he died young) - it's on the previous page in my posts referring to the Antipodean connexions of James MOLISON, 'half-brother' of "our" Allan's maternal grandfather Alexander Strachan MOLISON.
All the best, everyone,
JAP
PS: Let's hope the Lyte connexion pours himself just the right number of glasses to keep the mind in gear but the tongue fluent!
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Loads of stuff on Google for Orr/Ewing: I'll try and sift out anything likely to help us:
From The History of Stirlingshire - Chapter XXVII – Titled and Untitled Aristocracy
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/stirlingshire/chap27.htm
Archibald Orr-Ewing, Esquire, of Ballikinrain, is the seventh son of the late William Ewing, Esquire, of Ardvullin, Dunoon, by Susan, daughter of John Orr, Esquire, of Underwood, Paisley. He was born in 1819; and, in 1847, married Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of James Reid, Esquire, of Berriedale and Caldercruix. He has, with other issue, William, born in 1848; and educated at Pembroke College, Cambridge. Mr. Orr-Ewing was elected M.P. for Dumbartonshire in 1868.
John Warden M’Farlane, Esquire, of Ballencleroch House, Campsie, is the eldest son of John M’Falan, Esquire, by Janet Buchanan, daughter of Robert Ewing, Esquire, of Glasgow. He was born in 1824; succeeded his father in 1852; and in 1857, married Elizabeth, daughter of Duncan Gibb, Esq., of Liverpool. Mr. M’Farlan, who is a captain in the 5th Lancers, was educated at Edinburgh.
The Janet Buchanan Ewing mentioned in the second extract is the aunt of Christian Leckie Ewing, wife of Archibald Robertson, the cashier.
Rambler
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I find this strangely moving and I haven't followed through yet but I'm putting it out there in case anybody has any information already.........
Name: EWING, ARCHIBALD
Initials: A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Telegraphist
Regiment: Royal Navy
Unit Text: S.S. Ceramic
Age: 32
Date of Death: 07/12/1942
Service No: C/JX 269663
Additional information: Son of Archibald and Margaret B. Ewing, of Edinburgh.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 59, 2.
Cemetery: CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL
Name: EWING, MARY CONNOLLY
Initials: M C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Civilian
Regiment: Civilian War Dead
Age: 32
Date of Death: between 06/12/1942 and 07/12/1942
Additional information: of 36 Montgomery Street, Edinburgh; daughter of Mr. and Mrs. W. Topp, of the same address; wife of A. Ewing.
Casualty Type: Civilian War Dead
Cemetery: S.S. "CERAMIC"
Name: EWING, DOREEN MARGARET
Initials: D M
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Civilian
Regiment: Civilian War Dead
Age: 6
Date of Death: between 06/12/1942 and 07/12/1942
Additional information: of 36 Montgomery Street, Edinburgh. Daughter of A. Ewing, and of Mary Connolly Ewing.
Casualty Type: Civilian War Dead
Cemetery: S.S. "CERAMIC"
http://www.geocities.com/mulderspants/S_S_CERAMIC.html
Annie
PS Also index on Ancestry for Archibald ANN Ewing for 1871 looks like ORR on the image to me - can anybody confirm that ?
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Annie - I also read it as Archibald Orr Ewing. His occupation is given as MP and manufacturer, which (combined with dob) makes him the son of William Ewing and Susan Orr mentioned previously.
I'll list the family for convenience, even if we don't know quite how to connect them to our other Ewings yet:
Archibald Orr Ewing Head 52 MP [..] Manafacturer b. Scotland
Elizabeth L Ewing Wife 44 b. Scotland
William Ewing Son 22 Student Cambridge (I think!) b. Scotland
Charles L Ewing Son 10 b. Scotland
John Ewing Bro 62 Merchant b. Scotland
?? Jane Ewing Sis-in-law 53 b. Scotland
(Plus assorted servants.)
( RG10/131 - Folio 56 - Pg51)
This guy became 1st Baronet Orr-Ewing, and his children are:
Sir William Orr-Ewing, 2nd Bt. b. 14 Feb 1848, d. 20 Aug 1903
Sir Archibald Ernest Orr-Ewing, 3rd Bt. b. 22 Feb 1853, d. 21 Apr 1919
Janet Edith Orr-Ewing b. c 1858, d. 15 Jun 1935
Charles Lindsay Orr-Ewing b. 8 Sep 1860, d. 24 Dec 1903
http://www.thepeerage.com/p5229.htm#i52283
But we still don't know how to connect them to the other line!
Rambler
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http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/smihou/smihou084.htm
has information (and a nice piccie) of the property of Ralston in the parish of Paisley and county of Renfrew, about six miles from Glasgow.
Worth quoting the detail from the site:
The Ralstons of that Ilk were a very old family in Renfrewshire. The name is supposed to have originated in one Ralph or Ralf, who is said to have been a son of one of the Earls of Fife. He came to Renfrewshire, and having obtained lands there, named them after himself, "Ralfstoune" or "Ralstoune."
Be their origin, however, what it may, the Ralstons were undoubtedly of great antiquity in this parish and county.
In the chartulary of Paisley "Nicolaus de Ralphston" is mentioned in 1272. In the Ragman Roll, "Hew de Ralstoune", is a subscriber about 1296, and "Jacobus Ralstoune dominus ejusdem" is a witness to a charter in 1346. A John de Ralstoune appears in 1488, and afterwards a Richard. There was a Hugh Ralston of that Ilk in 1560, who "is an subscryver of that solemn bond entered into by many for manteaning the trew evangell." (1)
From the old Ralstons was descended in a direct line Gavin Ralston of that Ilk, who about the beginning of last century sold his lands to John, Earl of Dundonald; and upon the marriage of the Lady Anne Cochrane, eldest daughter of this nobleman, to James, fifth Duke of Hamilton, Ralston passed with her to the house of Hamilton.
In 1755 James, the succeeding Duke, sold Ralston to William M'Dowall of Castlesemple. This gentleman was much connected with Glasgow. His father, Colonel M'Dowall, of an old Galloway family, acquired by marriage large estates in the West Indies, and in 1727 purchased Castlesemple. In the same year he acquired the "Shawfield Mansion" in Glasgow, and was engaged in business there. His house was occupied by Prince Charles Stuart during his residence in Glasgow in 1745. Colonel M'Dowall died in 1748, and was succeeded by his eldest son, who purchased Ralston. He was one of the six enterprising Glasgow merchants who founded the Ship Bank in 1750. This was the first Glasgow Bank, and is now amalgamated with the Union Bank.
In 1800 William M'Dowall sold a considerable part of Ralston to William Orr, (2) who died in 1812, and was succeeded by his eldest son, Robert Orr. After again changing owners, Ralston came into the possession, in 1840, of the late James Richardson, merchant in Glasgow. On his death his eldest son Thomas succeeded. He added to the property by the purchase of Hillington, in the immediate neighbourhood, and dying at Pesth in Hungary in 1872, his son Robert Young Richardson, became the proprietor.
Ralston is described by Wishaw as "the seat of ane old family; a very pleasant place lyand near to Paisley. . . . Bot having their residence att Woodsyde (3) in Cunninghame, westward of this, they neglected this place." About the beginning of this century William Orr built an excellent house upon the property, and in 1864 large additions were made to it from furnished by Campbell Douglas, architect, Glasgow.
(1) Hamilton of Wishaw.
(2) William Orr of Ralston had a brother, whose descendants, John and Robert Orr, John Orr Ewing,* Archibald Orr Ewing M.P., and others, are well known and prominent citizens of Glasgow.
* Mr. John Orr Ewing died while this volume was passing through the press.
(3) "Woodsyde" was acquired by Hew Ralston in 1551, and he built a "strong tower" there, which is part of the present house. He transferred the family residence from Ralston to Woodside, and called it Woodside-Ralston.
Gavin Ralston, who succeeded in 1691, and who sold Ralston, had, with other children, a daughter, Jean, who married in 1732 John Shedden of Ruchwood; the eldest daughter of this marriage married John Patrick of Treehorn. The estate of Woodside is now in the possession of Robert William Cochrane Patrick, the great-great-great-grandson of Gavin Ralston, who sold Ralston.
Gavin Ralston, the grandson of the last laird of Ralston, died at Edinburgh in 1819, aged eighty-five, and as he left no sons, he was the last male representative of this ancient family.
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From the same website, but referring to the property at BALLANCLEROCH - http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/smihou/smihou006.htm - with another lovely piccie!
The family connection was further strengthened by the marriage of John M'Farlan's eldest sister Eleanora to William Leckie Ewing of Arngomery in the county of Stirling, and who more than once occupied the mansion house and shootings of Ballancleroch for a considerable time.
Mr. Leckie Ewing was a well known Glasgow merchant, a member of the old firm of Stirling Gordon & Co., and for many years, in connection with his partners, John Gordon of Aikenhead, Charles Stirling of Cadder, and Charles Stirling of Gargunnock, took a leading part in the politics of Glasgow and the West of Scotland on the Tory or Conservative side. He formed one of the deputation who went to Drayton Manor to invite Sir Robert Peel to a public banquet in Glasgow in 1837 on the occasion of his installation as Lord Rector of the University. He died in 1866. His eldest daughter married Archibald Robertson, cashier of the Royal Bank in Glasgow, and another daughter is the wife of Michael Connal, a very well known and esteemed citizen of Glasgow.
(Now that I've copied this I think I recall it being posted before by JoT / JAP or MR so apologies!)
Paul
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Do we have any connection to these Robertsons?
Banks / Chandlery / West Indies?
In 1783 this property was purchased by John Robertson, merchant in Glasgow. There was then a small dwelling house upon it. Mr. Robertson was a well known citizen. He and his brothers were proprietors of several sugar and cotton plantations in the West Indies, and this induced him to change the name of the property from Craigiehall to that of "Plantation." Mr. Robertson was also many years cashier of "The Glasgow Arms Bank," originally composed of about thirty of the principal merchants in Glasgow, which began in 1750, and ceased in 1793. Mr. Robertson and his brothers were likewise partners in the lucrative business of "The Smithfield Company," for the manufacture of various articles of iron, such as nails, axes, spades, hoes, shovels, &c. This old company began in 1734, and was conducted by descendants of former partners down till within the last forty years. They had slitting rolling and grinding mills on the Kelvin, near the Point-house, and the present "Slit Mill" there derives its name from this old iron-work. They had also a cluster of houses at the "Point-house" mouth of the Kelvin, and established the ferry there across the Clyde. The warehouse was in a large edifice at the Broomielaw, a short way west from the Jamaica Street bridge. Robertson Street was carried through part of the property of these brothers Robertson, and is named after them.
From the same site about Glasgow Landed Gentry at http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/smihou/smihou080.htm - this property (Plantations) is situated about one mile west from Tradeston, near the toll bar where the roads diverge, leading to Govan, and to Paisley
Any views?
Paul
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Hi Rambler,
Charles and Alice weren't living in sin ;D
1863 March qtr. St. Luke Vol. 1b page 679
Charles Macral Robertson
Alice Johnson
Got a copy off the fiche and "blew" it up definitely looks like an L on the end of Macra and not E.
Susan :)
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More on the Robertsons of Glasgow - hinting at financial difficulties following the French Revolution - to be found at http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/stecit/stecit11.htm#p145
Paul
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http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/100men/gm34.htm
for a portrait of WILLIAM Leckie Ewing.
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Just thought I'd let you know that I e-mailed a person in Oz who's related to Rev. Thomas Vial Cornell and is wanting to know more about the Cornell's and (especially) the Molisons.
Just wondered if she could shed any light on ASM.........
Erm - I think that is the chap I've already emailled and got the info from. ;D
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Wheeeeeeeew I come home from work to find that Paul's potentially connected back to 13th Century!!!!!!
Thank you for finding Charles and Alice, Susan, it still bothers me how the children got the "Robertson" in their names, it wasn't added afterwards as it was in their christening details.
I haven't yet managed to find a Johnson with an Alice marriage, I'm expecting Liverpool, but who knows.
Well there is one, but I wouldn't have thought Alice would get married in Manchester.
Charles Johnson married Alice Duffy 25th October, 1852 Cathedral Manchester
Mary, still looking ........ but after the pub!
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2. JoT (more great work) found (a page or so back) the death of half-brother James, age 53, in 1869 in Nigg, Kincardine; also his Will - "James Molison 10 Dec 1869 Residing at Sydney, thereafter Commission Agent in London, thereafter residing at Craigshaw in County of Kincardine"[/color]
I've got credits left on Scotlandspeople I'll look this death up to confirm Jamess parents. Unfortunately the Scotlandspeople site is down for maintenance at the mo.
I'm just leaving work & having dinner out so I'll look later tonight.
P ;D
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A couple of helpful quotations from the biography of William Leckie Ewing at http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/100men/gm34.htm
WILLIAM LECKIE EWING was born at Broich, in later years known as Arngomery, in the parish of Kippen and county of Stirling, the home of his maternal grandfather, on the 16th May, 1798. His father was the eldest son of Robert Ewing, one of the Balloch family, and his mother was Isabella Leckie, third daughter of Dr. William Leckie, of Broich. His father, Robert Ewing, died at the early age of thirty-three, leaving his widow, with their son not yet a year old and a daughter two years older
The world prospered with Mr. Leckie Ewing, and in 1826 he married Eleanora McFarlan, eldest daughter of John McFarlan of Ballancleroch, advocate, Edinburgh, the families having already become connected through the marriage of Mr. McFarlan's eldest son to Mr. Ewing's only sister.
If I read this correctly, William Leckie Ewing's father Robert died c1799 aged 33, so was born c1766. Robert's father was also called Robert Ewing.
And this is the first confirmation, I think, that Eleanor McFarlane (William's wife) and John McFarlane (Janet Buchanan Ewing's husband) were siblings.
Rambler
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;D Hi Guy's,
Don't suppose Charles and Alice M. Robertson married 1865.Glos.
Had a Claude in 1869.
In Godalming. Surrey. in 1881. fit in anywhere?
Been watching thread from work, but it shows not on-line, so I can't cheer you all on.
Keep up the good work.
:D Lesanne. :D
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Claude W Robertson belongs to a Charles and Alice Robertson who are NOT connected to our family. Most confusingly, there are 2 couples with the same names.
Way back in the thread somewhere there's a comparison of the 2 couples, and the "wrong" Charles is an artist, while ours is a sail maker.
Rambler
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This snippet taken from:
http://www.strath.ac.uk/Departments/JHLibrary/archives/cowie2.html
In the year 1793, there occurred the dreadful financial crisis which resulted in the collapse of the Arms Bank, the Merchants' Bank and the new Thomson's Bank. Only one major bank stood firm - the Ship Bank. Houston, however, had to realise some of his assets to meet the crisis, and, in 1800, the estate entered into the possession of a merchant who had made his money in the West Indian Trade. This was Archibald Smith, a figure already well known in Glasgow, being Dean of Guild in 1799. On acquiring the property, he added considerably to the house built by the Houstons. His wife, Isabel Ewing was noted as a gifted letter-writer, and she lived on till 1855, when she died at the age of 101.
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Rambler/Mary
re Jessie Robertson Johnson b 1858 IGI extract..
In my notes made from BMD fiche Jessie Johnson Dec. qtr 1853 Liverpool.
No Jessie Robertson or Johnson birth registered 1858/59.
Could the IGI extract be wrong i.e. the 8 should be a 3? This woulld tie in with her age on 1871 census.
Alice may not have been married before she married Charles in 1863.
These children are proving intriguing ???
Susan ;D
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2. JoT (more great work) found (a page or so back) the death of half-brother James, age 53, in 1869 in Nigg, Kincardine; also his Will - "James Molison 10 Dec 1869 Residing at Sydney, thereafter Commission Agent in London, thereafter residing at Craigshaw in County of Kincardine"[/color]
Hmmm? Od the only Molison turning up on Scotlands people is this one...
1856
JAMES MOLISON
Mother's maiden name: STEWART
Sex: M
Age: 71
Where: LETHNOT AND NAVAR ANGUS
Doesn't seem to fit with the one above?
Am I misunderstanding the quote from the will. Where would he of died?
I'm going to try variations.
Ignore me - searched for wrong date!
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Susan,
Intriguing! I'm tearing my hair out over them. I could almost believe that there are two families with children of the same name, in addition to one of them having the Hugh, but ours do seem to have all come to Liverpool, even if split up before 1881, probably on the death of the parents.
Charles M Robertson (c1853, Liverpool)
Jessie Robertson (c1854, Liverpool)
Alice M Robertson (c1857, Stepney)
Helen E Robertson (c1861, Stepney)
Agnes M Robertson (c1863, Hertfordshire)
Lilias Robertson (c1866, Stratford)
The IGI could be wrong as they are primarily concerned with Christenings I think but they noted both birth and Christening, but I wouldn't want our Jessie's birth to be before Charles
Charles Robertson Johnson, births Jun qtr 1857, Liverpool
I really don't know what to think.
Mary
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Here you go.
1869 Nigg Kincardine
James Molison
Merchant married to Isabella Ann Forsyth
1869 June 29th
11h 30m AM
at Balnagask House
M
53 years
Parents
William Maule Molison
Lieutenant 71 (?) Regimant (deceased)
Margaret Molison m.s. Davidson
Cause of death
Albuminiuma
& Morbas Cordis
several months
as certified M Kelgreen(?) M.D. Aberdeen
Informant
J Davidson (might not be J - image attached)
Nephew
(present)
1869 June 29th Nigg
This only really acts as confirmation to info we had.
Cheers,
Pam
;D
PS Balnagask House is now a care home fro the elderly.
-
Maragret Molison nee Davidson died in 1877 here's her death cert.
1877 Nigg Kincardine
Margaret Molison
Widow of William Maule Molison
of H. M. 71st Regt Highland Light Infantry
1877 August 17th
2h am
Balnagask House
F
88 years
Parents
Robert Davidson of Balnagask (deceased)
Christian Davidson m.s. Philip (deceased)
Cause
Infermities of Old Age
Injury to thigh bone 10 days
as cert'd by A?g? Fraser M.D.
Informant
M M Davidson
Daughter
(Present)
1877 August 25th Nigg
That "of Balnagask" for her father is unusual and not typical of teh Ag Lab entries I'm used to so I suppose we are dealing with landed gentry here.
Jeez I'm itching to tackle a sasine - no need for my own tree.
Pam
;D
-
A quick google finds this...
"John Blaikie Manson. Born Old Meldrum 19th June 1843. Married at Balnagask House, Nigg, Kincardineshire, 24 August 1880, Margaret Davidson"
From a Blaikie family tree here.
http://www.kittybrewster.com/ancestry/blaikie.htm
-
Here's the history of the 71st Regiment of the Highland Light Infantry.
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/inf/071-786.htm#titles
It doesn't have too much but the timeline gives an idea of teh action William may have seen.
Pam
;D
-
From IGI...
13 JUN 1784 Nigg, Kincardine, Scotland
Robert Davidson & Christian Philip married batch: M112664 (extracted)
Hey I know she is probably the "step-mum" but I reckon a fair bit of cash came through this route into the family.
-
Pam
YOU GO GIRL!!!!
Annie ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Just so you don't think you're talking to yourself!!
-
Is this the "S" name somebody ....... mentioned ........!!???
Name - Robertson, M Souler
Age - 33
birth year - 1858
Relation - Visitor
Gender - Female
Birth Country - Scotland
Civil parish - Tormoham ???
Town - Torquay
County - Devon
Source information RG12/1705
-
1881
A H M Robertson
abt 1854
Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Master
Vessels
Lancashire
Huskisson Dock Liverpool
-
I've had too many interuptions tonight - if these are way off - ignore them OK?
1881
David ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 51 Occupation Master Shipwright Birthplace Sunderland, Durham, Address 121 Boundary Lane, Everton, Lancashire
Elizabeth A. ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 22 Occupation – Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 121 Boundary Lane, Everton, Lancashire
Archibald ROBERTSON Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 26 Occupation Shipwright Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire, Address 121 Boundary Lane, Everton, Lancashire
Dorothy ROBERTSON Relationship Daur Condition – Gender F Age 1 Occupation – Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 121 Boundary Lane, Everton, Lancashire
Infant ROBERTSON Relationship Daur Condition – Gender F Age 1 w Occupation – Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 121 Boundary Lane, Everton, Lancashire
Sarah SPRUCE Relationship Nurse Condition W Gender F Age 46 Occupation Nurse Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 121 Boundary Lane, Everton, Lancashire
Jane BROWN Relationship Servant Condition – Gender F Age 14 Occupation Domestic Servant Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 121 Boundary Lane, Everton, Lancashire
-
1881
William ROBERTSON Relationship Head Condition M Gender M Age 66 Occupation Ship Keeper (Harbor) Birthplace Scotland Address 66 Carter St., Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Ellen ROBERTSON Relationship Wife Condition M Gender F Age 58 Occupation – Birthplace Gisburn, York Address 66 Carter St., Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Charles QUAYLE Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 30 Occupation Master Joiner Employing 3 Men And 3 Boys Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 66 Carter St., Toxteth Park, Lancashire
John H. QUAYLE Relationship Son Condition U Gender M Age 24 Occupation Joiner Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire, Address 66 Carter St., Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Ellen ROBERTSON Relationship Daur Condition U Gender F Age 15 Occupation – Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 66 Carter St., Toxteth Park, Lancashire
William G. WILLIAMS Relationship Boarder Condition – Gender M Age 14 Occupation Scholar Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 66 Carter St., Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Gwendoline G. WILLIAMS Relationship Boarder Condition – Gender F Age 3 Occupation – Birthplace Liverpool, Lancashire Address 66 Carter St., Toxteth Park, Lancashire
-
1881
with the Bryan Family - School Master and Mistress
William C. ROBERTSON Relationship Boarder Condition – Gender M Age 13 Occupation Pupil (Sch) Birthplace Australia Address 55 Hawkshead St South, North Meols, Lancashire
-
Parish St Peters,
Church Street
Date 12.10.1800
Groom William Robertson of parish Liverpool
occupation Mariner
Bride Jesse Shaw of parish Liverpool a Widow
by Banns/Licence L
-
1881 Ship Caxcapeda
William ROBERTSON
Relationship –
Condition U
Gender M
Age 38
Occupation 3 Officer
Birthplace Longhope, Orkney, Scotland
Address Caxcapeda, London, Middlesex
-
Great work, Annie, Pam and Mary.
At this rate, all we'll need to determine is George Robertsons's shoe size and we'll have cracked it! :)
cheers
Paul
-
Margaret Maria MOLISON, chr 1822 in Fraserburgh ABD was one of the daughters of William Maule MOLISON and his wife Margaret DAVIDSON and thus one of the half-sisters of "our" Allan's maternal gfather, Alexander Strachan MOLISON.
Just for completeness.
There is an LDS submission for the following:
William Adams DAVIDSON married Margaret Maria MOLISON, 27 Mar 1851, Old Machar ABD.
And an extracted record for the following:
Catherine DAVIDSON b 23 Apr 1855, St Cyrus Kincardine, parents William Adam DAVIDSON and Margaret Maria MOLISON.
There is a Will on ScotlandsPeople for Margaret Maria; the Index lists her date and place of death.
Davidson Margaret Maria, 04/09/1889, or Molison, of Balnagask, County of Kincardine, d. 26/06/1889 at Ventnor, Isle of Wight, intestate.
There are several mentions of Balnagask by Boongie Pam on page 51. She mentioned Margaret (DAVIDSON) MOLISON's father Robert as being "of Balnagask". She said that Balnagask House was where Margaret (DAVIDSON) MOLISON (widow of William Maule MOLISON) died in 1877 (and I now note that the informant was M M DAVIDSON, daughter!). And was where James MOLISON died in 1869. She added that Balnagask House is now a care home for the elderly.
JAP
PS: I note that the Scottish Genealogy Society holds the following:
"DAVIDSON 1 LKS.MLN.RFW.DFS 1720-1989 T C 5 pages
Three linked family trees. Letter detailing members of the family of Balnagask."
-
Great work Pam; its good to see what I pieced together confirmed. I'll try and get a photo of Balnagask House this weekend. Craigshaw where James Molison was according to the will ref. would have been very close going by the roads that have replaced it.
I've been looking for William's death but guess he must have died prior to 1855. Aberdeen library may have something on the family or even Balnagask House that will give us some clues, I try to go on Monday.
Jo
-
I really can't recall if this has been mentioned - but i googled Balnagash davidson - and found a family tree online with this...
(A) John Blaikie Manson. Born Old Meldrum 19th June 1843. Married at Balnagask House, Nigg, Kincardineshire, 24 August 1880, Margaret Davidson
There's no other mention than her name....
I thought I recalled Mansons from reading the string.....
Tom
P.S. - This has been the most amazing string - you guys are doing a great job...
-
A snippet extracted from
http://www.kittybrewster.com/ancestry/blaikie.htm
John Blaikie Manson. Born Old Meldrum 19th June 1843. Married at Balnagask House, Nigg, Kincardineshire, 24 August 1880, Margaret Davidson
Not sure how this fits in though! I can only follow one or two lines of this tree at once!
Paul
Beaten to the post! Well done Tom and great to have you aboard!
-
And of course, when we finally all crack up from over exposure to this thread, we can check in at the Balnagask House Nursing Home (but we'll be wearing cricket pads and AFL helmets if we've got any sense :()
Paul
-
Nice work Pam - all useful confirmation plus a few extra details to follow up.
Annie - I don't think any of those Robertsons tie in at present, but keep digging!
Susan/MaryA - I don't know what to make of these children either. I'll have another look at them today and see if anything comes to mind. But as far as I can see, if they are really all from the same family, 4 of them were born before Alice married Charles, so were they his or someone else's?
Would love to see a photo of Balnagask House! Makes it all more real to see the places where these folk lived.
Rambler
-
Paul E and tommytoronto,
The Manson/Davidson quote is on the previous page - page 51 - posted by Boongie Pam.
JAP
-
Doh! Have to start paying more attention / wipe the sleep from my eyes when I log on!
Couldn;t understand the Manson connection though.
Thanks JAP! :)
Paul
-
Hi Paul E,
You and me both! I guess it's just the DAVIDSON and Balnagask connexion that are relevant!
JAP
-
Re: Jessie Johnsons DOB
Got some credits spare with 1837online so checked it out. Her birth is registered as -
Jessie Johnson Dec 1853 Vol. 8b Page 91 Liverpool
If you want any more birthdates verifying, let me know, still got a few credits spare.
Catherine :)
-
If we want to keep following up "our" Allan's mother's half-relatives (via children of "our" Allan's putative maternal ggfather William Maule MOLISON) here are a few more (possibly relevant) Balnagask KCD references from Scottish Wills (now on ScotlandsPeople - previously at Scottish Documents).
Davidson Katherine, 20/06/1874, Daughter of Margaret Maria Molison Davidson, residing in Balnagask - Inventory
(we had her birth as Catherine in 1855 just a few posts ago - 1855 is an interesting year; the first year of Statutory Registration in Scotland and birth certs from that year contain considerably more information, including info re previous issue, cf those from subsequent years)
Davidson Robert 02/05/1827 sr., residing at Balnagask - Inventory,Testament
Davidson Robert 19/10/1827, Esquire of Balnagask - Inventory
Davidson Alexandrina, Mrs. 16/02/1870, alias Duthie widow of Robert Davidson Esquire of Balnagask thereafter residing in Parish of Fetteresso - Inventory; Trust Conveyance and Settlement
Davidson Katherine, 15/07/1875 Residing at Craigshaw in Parish of Nigg - Inventory; Last Will and Testament
JAP
-
Ewing - Orr - Leckie - Buchanan
I've been playing around with the 2 Ewing lines connected to our family, but can't make them link up. Can anyone find something I've missed?
Branch A (Orr-Ewing)
Allan's aunt Helen Robertson married James Ewing. James was the son of William Ewing and Susanna Orr. His older brother Archibald became Sir Archibald Orr-Ewing, 1st baronet, and Archibald's descendants used the surname Orr-Ewing with a hyphen. Other descendants of William and Susanna frequently used Orr as a middle name, but stuck to the surname Ewing.
Susanna Orr was chr. 1 May 1785 in Paisley, dau of John Orr and Agnes Anderson.
William Ewing's birthdate is given in a Gilmour family history at http://homepages.luc.edu/~pgilmou/familyhistory.pdf as 10 Feb 1773, but there is no entry for him in the IGI. Can anyone verify this?
I listed James Ewing's siblings a couple of pages back, and 2 of them have middle names Leckie and Buchanan, which make me think they ought to tie up with Branch B.
Branch B (Leckie Ewing)
Christian Leckie Ewing (1829) m. Archibald Robertson, cashier. Her parents were William Leckie Ewing (1798) and Eleanora McFarlane (1801).
Eleanora McFarlane was the dau of John McFarlane and Christian Wardrob(!), and had a brother John, who married William Leckie Ewing's sister, Janet Buchanan Ewing.
William Leckie Ewing was the son of Robert Ewing (c1766), a merchant, and Isabel Leckie (1772). Robert Ewing's father was also called Robert. Isabel Leckie was the dau of William Leckie and Janet Buchanan.
I can't find anything to link the 2 groups, except the middle names Leckie and Buchanan, which may be pure coincidence. If anyone has any bright ideas, I'd love to hear them - otherwise I'm giving up on this line!
Rambler
-
Just thought I'd let you know that I e-mailed a person in Oz who's related to Rev. Thomas Vial Cornell and is wanting to know more about the Cornell's and (especially) the Molisons.
Just wondered if she could shed any light on ASM.........
Erm - I think that is the chap I've already emailled and got the info from. ;D
Nope, was definitely a woman - she said she'd take a peek at the weekend!
-
Just thought I'd let you know that I e-mailed a person in Oz who's related to Rev. Thomas Vial Cornell and is wanting to know more about the Cornell's and (especially) the Molisons.
Just wondered if she could shed any light on ASM.........
Erm - I think that is the chap I've already emailled and got the info from. ;D
Nope, was definitely a woman - she said she'd take a peek at the weekend!
That's excellent. I know the contact I made used a woman's (ex wife's) email address that's why I thought it might be the same person ;D.
I noticed one of the wills on scotlandspeople is 21 pages long! That must be some inventory! Can't remember which one now. A fiver? Is t worth it? It is to the family ;D
All the best,
Pam
;D
-
Just noticed this from MR on the Summary thread
I'm sorry if I haven't made the summaries clear enough, but I'm doing my best....
MR, your summaries have been EXCELLENT - goodness knows how you have managed with this thread. Bet when you agreed to take this on, you had NO idea... :) Hope your daughter hasn't been grounded! :)
Paul
-
Just noticed this from MR on the Summary thread
I'm sorry if I haven't made the summaries clear enough, but I'm doing my best....
MR, your summaries have been EXCELLENT - goodness knows how you have managed with this thread. Bet when you agreed to take this on, you had NO idea... :) Hope your daughter hasn't been grounded! :)
Paul
Hear hear! (Or Here, here - I'm never too sure ;D )
Without the summaries this would be impossible. You have done a great great job there.
Whoever get's your baton beware, there's a lot to live upto unless you are canny and manage to pick the only child born to an only child who dies (sadly) 2 days after the census.
Manchester you are a star!
(As a scouser that is not a sentence fragment I thought I'd ever say/type!)
-
Do I remember coming across the name KIPPEN on this thread (or was it just a dream?) :) Can anyone jog my memory?
Paul
PS
We could do with a Berlin-Bob Surname Interests Table JUST for this thread!
-
This directory of Glasgow, from 1787, seems to contain so many of the names we have encountered so far: Orr, Robertson, Leckie, Moody etc:
http://www.amostcuriousmurder.com/JonesDirectory2.htm
Paul
-
This directory of Glasgow, from 1787, seems to contain so many of the names we have encountered so far: Orr, Robertson, Leckie, Moody etc:
http://www.amostcuriousmurder.com/JonesDirectory2.htm
Paul
-
Thanks for the encouragement - I didn't realise this was going to be a full-time job for the month!
I don't think we've had KIPPEN as a surname, but the place has cropped up a few times for births/marriages.
Rambler
-
Mary
Sorry to have given you palpatations with Jessie's birth ::)
I had put the wrong year on my notes had two page 1860's for Dec. qtr. instead of 1858 ???
Jessie Robertson Johnson Dec. qtr. 1858 Liverpool vol 8b page 171.
Charles Robertson Johnson June qtr. 1857 Liverpool 8b 238.
This ties her age in with the 1861 census.
Still wondering about the other dates for a Jessie and Charles Johnson that links them with ages in 1871 census. Could they have been re-registered in their father's name?
Or could be totally different people.
I have a cousin who has two birth certificates, his mother wasn't married when he was born, she later married the father and he was re-registered under his father's name two years after birth :o
Susan ;D
-
Yes well done Rambler on the summaries ;D
I for one wouldn't have been able to keep track, makes it easier to print out the relevant bits.
Susan :)
-
Still wondering about the other dates for a Jessie and Charles Johnson that links them with ages in 1871 census. Could they have been re-registered in their father's name?
Or could be totally different people.
I have a cousin who has two birth certificates, his mother wasn't married when he was born, she later married the father and he was re-registered under his father's name two years after birth :o
Susan ;D
Although we'd have trouble proving it, I think this is a very possible explanation. The ages on the 1881 census are iffy, but it certainly looks like the same people.
Rambler
-
Another daughter of William Maule Molison and Margaret Davidson therefoer step sister to Alexander Strachan Molison (ASM):
Catharine Molison chr 27 June 1823 Fraserburgh
Looks like her niece was named after her.
Jo
-
I asked Doug the guy who knows everything about the Wars and regiments etc
to look up Our Claude the only Claude he could come up with is the Claude W ..
I'm posting - because he keeps popping up for a reason......!! call me crazy ::) ::) ::)
ROBERTSON Claude William
Rank: Captain
Regiment Force:Royal Marine Light Infantry
Place of Event:Selous River
Event:22 July 1900 Killed in action, while attached to the 1st Australian Bushmen
Age:31
-
Well it now seems I have a Molison obsession!
1871 St Cyrus Kincardine
p8
House Sch No: 31
Morphy Farm House
James Adamson Head mar 44 Farmer of 450 acres arable employing 13 labourers Forfarshire Brechin
Catherine Adamson Wife mar 47 Aberdeenshire Fraserburgh
Robert Adamson son 14 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
James Adamson son 13 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
Catherine Adamson daur 11 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
Henry Adamson son 9 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
Alexander Adamson son 6 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
Margaret Molison Mother in Law Wid 82 Kincardineshire Nigg
Maria Davidson Sister in law Mar 49 Aberdeenshire Fraserburgh
Margaret Davidson Niece 19 Surrey Croydon
James Davidson Nephew 17 Arts Student Surrey Croydon
Agnes AItken Serv 46 Housekeeper Forfarshire Brechin
Mary Morrison Serv 37 Cook Kincardineshire Glen Bevis?
Mary Forsyth Serv 20 Housemaid Banffshire Keith
Ha ha - JoT you posted as I was typing here's Catherine ;D
-
I asked Doug the guy who knows everything about the Wars and regiments etc
to look up Our Claude the only Claude he could come up with is the Claude W ..
I'm posting - because he keeps popping up for a reason......!! call me crazy ::) ::) ::)
ROBERTSON Claude William
Rank: Captain
Regiment Force:Royal Marine Light Infantry
Place of Event:Selous River
Event:22 July 1900 Killed in action, while attached to the 1st Australian Bushmen
Age:31
Annie - Claude W is the son of Charles Robertson, artist, and Alice Mary (Lonsdale) from Sydney. (See p.34) We haven't found any connection between them and "our" Robertsons.
Rambler
-
Hi Annie, MR,
Has anyone posted the 71 census for Claude william and his parents?
Just wondered.!!
Lesanne. ;D
Just got home, 'nother wedding.... Big pink , blousy peonies and lilac delph's,
very summery. Shame it's all cloudy.
-
If Charles the artist and family were in England for the 1871 census, I haven't been able to find them. Info posted p.34 of this thread is from 1881/1891 censuses.
Rambler
-
For those who are feeling a bit lost with the Robertsons and Molisons, how about taking a look at Allan's wife Charlotte's family? I've posted a summary of the info we have collected so far on the Muirs at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.15.html
Lots of siblings, aunts and uncles to follow up here, not to mention the challenge of trying to take the line further back!
Rambler
-
I'm sure its been mentioned before on this thread, but apparently Simon & Garfunkle's iconic song 'Mrs Robinson' had the working title of 'Allan Robertson'.
Hence the opening lyrics:
We'd like to know
A little bit about you
For our files
:)
-
1881 RG11/3647 Folio 105 page 4
38 Wellesley Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
Charlotte (Muir) Robertson's grandmother -
Mary Muir Head Widow 76 b: Yorkshire Whitby
Richard W Muir son unm 42 General Merchant do
Kate Muir daur unm 35 do
Jane Kirk serv unm 28 Domestic servant b: Lancashire, Liverpool
Susan :)
-
Here's Charlotte (under the name Georgina) and 3 older siblings, living with uncle Richard in 1871 - while their parents were at sea?
44 Wellesley Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
R[ichard] W[illiam] Muir Head 31 Merchant Shipowner b. Whitby, Yorkshire
Kate Muir Sister 25 b. Whitby, Yorkshire
Mary B Muir Niece 9 b. London
Thomas Muir Nephew 8 b. India E I
Ernest Muir Nephew 5 b. India E I
Georgina Dale Muir Niece 3 b. India E I
RG10/3803 - Folio 158 - Pg 38
Rambler
-
Very well done on the summaries Rambler, it must be a near enough full time job, as well as solving some of our problems for us too.
Thank you CatOne and Susan for the birth details for Jessie.
Jessie Johnson Dec 1853 Vol. 8b Page 91 Liverpool
Susan - I was thinking about your suggestion of the "re-registering". I didn't know people could be re-registered, are you sure this was in England? If the BMD entry was later than the IGI entry, then that might have been a possibility since that would be a second registration, but it was earlier than the IGI stated "birth", so I'm not sure that could be right and we also have a birth entry for Jessie Robertson Johnson, matching the 1861 census. It seems to me that there must be two Jessies born Liverpool. It's unfortunate that there's no way of confirming the parents of the earlier born Jessie, but thanks to the IGI we have confirmation that both the Jessie Robertson Johnson and also Charles Robertson Johnson were born to Charles Johnson and Alice.
Now when Susan found them in 1871 Charles the middle initial M as did the father, Charles Robertson, which led us to the Mackae or Macrae. Now this could easily have been an error on the part of the enumerator just copying son as father's name and I suppose we have just assumed this.
1861 census
Alice Johnson Wife Mar 23, b. Liverpool no husband listed
Charles Johnson Son 3, b. Liverpool
Jessie Johnson daur 2, b. Liverpool
Alice M Johnson 6 months, b. Stepney
1871 census
Charles M Robertson Head Mar 47 b. London Sailmaker
Alice Robertson Wife Mar 47 b. Liverpool
Charles M Robertson Son 18 b. Liverpool
Jessie Robertson Dau 17 b. Liverpool
Alice M Robertson Dau 14 b. Stepney
Helen E Robertson Dau 10 b. Stepney
Agnes M Robertson Dau 8 b. Hertfordshire
Lilias Robertson Dau 5 b. Stratford.
1881 census
At a school in Hampshire, Alice Robertson (20) b. London, is assistant matron. Helen Robertson (17), b. London and Agnes Robertson (14) b. Bushey, Herts, are scholars.
Lilias Robertson (13) b. London is at a different school in Cheshire.
Can anybody convince me that there are two Alice Johnson/Charles Robertson families, both with the same names for their children or why there are such large discrepancies between each census. From births there are
1. IGI Jessie Robertson Johnson b 17/11/58 C 28/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool
BMD Jessie Robertson Johnson Dec. qtr. 1858 Liverpool vol 8b page 171. (matches 1861)
2. Jessie Johnson Dec 1853 Vol. 8b Page 91 Liverpool (matches 1871)
1. Charles Robertson Johnson June qtr. 1857 Liverpool 8b 238 Liverpool (matches 1861)
2. Charles Johnson June qtr. 1852 Liverpool vol 8b page 199 (matches 1871)
1. Alice Maud Johnson b 1/10.1860 C 27/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool 1861 census says 6 months, born Stepney. Just because she was christened in Liverpool doesn’t mean she was born Liverpool.
2. JOHNSON Alice Mary Dec qtr 1859 - Stepney 1c 514 – this would make her over 1 year old in 1861 so not ours.
Charles, Jessie and Alice are 5/4 years older than they should be in 1871.
In 1881 Alice is back to the right age, (so losing 4 years between 1871 and 1881) and Helen, Agnes and Lilias are all 2 - 4 years younger than they should be compared to 1871. So are the people in 1861 and 1881 the same and a different family in 1871, yet their names and birthplaces are right.
I hope this summary covers all angles rather than having to go back pages to check entries, please can anybody give an opinion whether we just agree with these or is there an alternative family somewhere – bearing in mind that the only one found for Charles the father was this family in 1871.
Paul - no it hasn't been mentioned before, but I can't stop singing it now. Any links to Widnes yet and we'll join in with Homeward Bound too.
-
1881 RG11/3647 Folio 105 page 4
38 Wellesley Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
Charlotte (Muir) Robertson's grandmother -
Mary Muir Head Widow 76 b: Yorkshire Whitby
Richard W Muir son unm 42 General Merchant do
Kate Muir daur unm 35 do
Jane Kirk serv unm 28 Domestic servant b: Lancashire, Liverpool
Susan :)
In 1891, at Windle, St Helens, Lancashire:
William Harrison, Head, M, 67, Builder and Contractor, Keswick, Cumberland
Ann Elizabeth, Wife, M, 65, Whitby, Yorkshire
Emma M, Daur, 34, S, St Helens, Lancs
Ann J, Daur, 32, S, St Helens, Lancs
William J, Son, 30, Builder and contractor, St Helens Lancs
Kate Muir, Sister in Law, 45, Whitby, Lancs
Paul
Mary - Getting close to Widnes with St Helens!
-
Mary,
birth reg for
Charles Johnson June qtr. 1852 Liverpool vol 8b page 199 (This would tie up with 1871 census).
will have to try and find parents ???
As regards re-registering - yes it was England - my cousin has two birth entries in the registers, there is a note at the bottom of the page of the first referring to the second ::) I don't know how strict they were with registers in the 1800's
Susan :)
-
Thank you Susan, I've included it in my previous post so as to keep continuity.
The point I'm trying to make though I don't think I'm being very clear about it is, see the entries for Jessie, the IGI is referring to a BIRTH which takes place a few years after a registration, so these must be two different Jessies, not a re-register which would have to take place after the birth.
Mary, head still spinning.
-
From freeBMD, marriage of Ann Elizabeth Muir to William Harrison, March Qtr 1854 at West Derby, Liverpool.
-
Name: Robertson, Charles M
Age: 11/12
birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where Born: Liverpool, Lancashire
Civil parish: Toxteth Park
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Toxteth Park
County/Island: Lancashire
On the image - Charles is with his mother Jessie living with her family - but there doesn't seem to be any money there - so I'm not sure if this is the right family - would somebody check it please?
-
1871 St Cyrus Kincardine
James Adamson Head mar 44 Farmer of 450 acres arable employing 13 labourers Forfarshire Brechin
Catherine Adamson Wife mar 47 Aberdeenshire Fraserburgh
Robert Adamson son 14 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
James Adamson son 13 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
Catherine Adamson daur 11 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
Henry Adamson son 9 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
Alexander Adamson son 6 Scholar Kincardineshire St Cyrus
Margaret Molison Mother in Law Wid 82 Kincardineshire Nigg
Maria Davidson Sister in law Mar 49 Aberdeenshire Fraserburgh
Margaret Davidson Niece 19 Surrey Croydon
James Davidson Nephew 17 Arts Student Surrey Croydon
Agnes AItken Serv 46 Housekeeper Forfarshire Brechin
Mary Morrison Serv 37 Cook Kincardineshire Glen Bevis?
Mary Forsyth Serv 20 Housemaid Banffshire Keith
For completeness...
From the St Cyrus extracted baptismal entries (IGI)...
1. ROBERT WILLIAM ADAMSON 10 OCT 1856
2. JAMES ADAMSON 12 JAN 1858
3. CATHERINE ADAMSON 24 FEB 1860
4. HENRY MACKENZIE ADAMSON 26 NOV 1861
5. ALEXANDER DAVIDSON ADAMSON 08 APR 1864
Cheers,
Pam
;D
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Name: Robertson, Charles M
Age: 11/12
birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where Born: Liverpool, Lancashire
Civil parish: Toxteth Park
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Toxteth Park
County/Island: Lancashire
On the image - Charles is with his mother Jessie living with her family - but there doesn't seem to be any money there - so I'm not sure if this is the right family - would somebody check it please?
Annie is this from the 1901 census? I have a Chas M born 1891 with mother Jessie, but it doesn't seem to be the same one you have as yours mentions "grandson" and "St James" Parish.
I would have suspected it might have been Charles wife and children but not sure as that Jessie was born Scotland and by rights young Charles should have been in evidence in the 1891 census. Too many Jessies about aren't there?
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OK - I checked the Summaries page and I didn't see these - so if it's already been posted - I'm going to go eat Chinese food ??? ???
1891
14 Collingham Place Kensington
Charles M Robertson Head 37 Own Means Ceylon
Charlotte M Robertson Wife 32 India
Ada Hume Sister in Law 23 India
Eleanor M Robertson daughter 6 Ceylon
Violet M Robertson daughter 5 Ceylon
Henry Ward Butler 51 Dorset
Ann Ward Cook 52 Dorset
Isabella Lewis nurse 48 Oxford
Harriet Hillyer housemaid 17 Somerset
Annie
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Blimey some more countries!
Referring to young Charles, previous post
Robertson, Charles Malcolm born June qtr 1890
Toxteth Park Lancashire Volume: 8b Page: 203
which definitely means that he should have been with parents in 1891.
I got you, you found the 1891 while I found the 1901. Jessie Barclay married Robert Malcolm Robertson September qtr 1888 Liverpool 8b 316.
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Annie,
Charles M Robertson 11/12 is the age transcribed, on the image it's 11 months!
I think this is the info I posted a few pages back Jessie living with parents father John Barclay?
Susan :)
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OK - I just checked it again - you're right it is 11 months - but not wanting to sound snobby or anything but a "fishmonger" in the family ??? ??? ???
That's why I questioned it ::) ::)
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Phew ::)
Still to do with the sea I suppose ;D
Where does Robert Malcolm Robertson fit in?
Susan
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Fishmonger is the son John Barclay, her father is John Barclay, Manager to a Sugar Refiners, once again born Scotland, Glasgow.
No other connections to a Robert Malcolm
Mary
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To heck with it ..... let's just have them open a fish and chip shop and eat jam butties ::)
I'm fed up with this game - can we play another :o :o :o :o :o :o I am so confused I can't stand it ??? ???
Annie :P
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xox
oxo
xox
I win! Share your chinese and I'll let you have a turn. ;D
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Mary
I've told you before - it's only because you're organized - and I loved that you sent me the Word - but guess what ??? I can't open it - so I can't win for losing ::) ::) ::) ::)
And oh alright then - you can have an egg roll ::) ::) ::)
Annie
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Thank you, but can I have noodles to go with it please? Sorry about the word doc. I tried to save it in an older format but somehow my software is missing some of the functions to do that so I hoped everybody had the up to date version. :(
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I hoped the Harrisons/Muirs in St Helens would have been in Keswick or Whitby by 1861 but unfortunately not, they don't seem to have moved about much after that.
I think this is the most likely William J in 1901
RG13/3970 Fylde Blackpool Folio 44 Page 44
113 Handsworth Road, Blackpool
William J Harrison Head M 40 Builders Clerk CC Worker Lancashire St Helens
Mary E Wife M 28 Staffs Burton on Trent
Clifford Son 1 Lancashire Blackpool
Death William Harrison Age 71 December qtr 1894 Prescot Lancashire 8b 457
Death Ann Elizabeth Harrison Age 74 June qtr 1900 Fylde Lancashire 8e 528
RG11/3734 Folio 33 Page 4 Prescot St Helens
1881 1 Cotham Street Windle St Helens
William Harrison Head M 57 Builder employing 2 men and 15 boys Cumberland Keswick
Ann E Wife M 55 “ Wife Yorkshire Whitby
Annie J daur Unm 22 Lancashire St Helens
William J Harrison Son Unm 21 Builder Son “ “
RG11/3651 - Folio 113 - Pg 61: 20 Linnet Lane, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Mary Barrow Muir abt 1862 London, Middlesex, England Daughter
James E. Muir abt 1866 Sri Lanka Son
Charlotte G. Muir abt 1868 At Sea Daughter
Gertrude Muir abt 1873 Liverpool Daughter
Reginald L. Muir abt 1871 Bombay, India Son
Emma Harrison abt 1857 St Helens, Lancashire, England Visitor
Mary Gilchrist abt 1836 Lanarkshire, Scotland Visitor
Robt. Gilchrist abt 1829 Montrose, Scotland Visitor
Ann Grant abt 1857 Liverpool Servant
Remember this Rambler? Emma Harrison is William and Ann Elizabeth’s daughter.
1871 RG10/3863 Folio 175 Page 36
West Balderson Street, Windle
Wm Harrison Head M 47 Builder and Contractor employing 79 men and 10 appr Keswick Cumb
Ann E Wife 45 Wife Whitby Yorks
Emma M daur 14 Scholar St Helens Lancs
Annie J “ 12 “ “ “
William J Son 10 “ “ “
Mary Muir Mother in Law Widow 66 Retired Whitby York
1861
81 Duke Street, St Helens
William Harrison Head M 36 Joiner and Carpenter Manager Cumberland Keswick
Ann E Wife M 35 Yorkshire Whitby
Emma M Daur 4 Scholar Lancashire St Helens
Annie J “ 2 “ “ “
William J Son 1 month “ “
Ellen Watkinson Servant Unm 19 House Servant Lancashire Rainford
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I remember that 'cos I got told off for following the Gilchrists - ::) ::) ::)
By the way - MR told us to look for Claude's school this is what I found for that address - an Indian Restaurant ...............
Kashmir Tandoori
35 Gateford Road
Worksop
01909 477573
I must have food on the brain today.... :P :P :P
Annie
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Hello everyone,
I while ago, I posted some stats for this thread, and out of curiosity,I had another look today.
I'm sure that it will come as no suprise,but this ole thread is now number one in the Top 10 Topics (By replies) with a huge 820 replies,2nd place is British Isles Vital Records Index look up offer PART 2 with 725.
Amazing stuff,keep up the good work all of you. :)
Mick ;)
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If Charles the artist and family were in England for the 1871 census, I haven't been able to find them. Info posted p.34 of this thread is from 1881/1891 censuses.
Rambler
Just to tie up who Charles ROBERTSON the artist probably is. Charles the artist was said to be 40 and b Liverpool in the 1881 census; wife Alice said to be 40 and b Sydney (ages not quite right ...?). Their family included a son Claud W age 11 - who, we think, is the Capt Claude William ROBERTSON who was killed in action in 1900.
I looked up his wife Alice in the NSW BDMs. MR thought it was probably the ROBERTSON-LOUSDALE(sic) marriage in 1865 in Cheltenman in the IGI and mentioned an Alice M LONSDALE b Sydney in the 1861 census. In the NSW BDMs there's an Alice M LONSDALE b 1836 in Sydney, parents William and Martha (presumably the William LONSDALE and Martha SMYTHE who married there in 1835).
Then I looked up the children of Charles and Alice on FreeBMD. Adrian is there as Adrian Van Der M ROBERTSON, Mar qtr 1871, Chertsey.
The IGI has an LDS submission for the birth of a Charles ROBERTSON, 5 May 1844 in Liverpool to a Charles Vander Meulen ROBERTSON and Harriet HOPE (also several other children to this couple). There's also an LDS submission for their marriage in 1843; that marriage - but without the middle name - is on FreeBMD in West Derby, LAN. Charles and Harriet are mentioned briefly on the following website:
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~slkarner/WC15/WC15_201.HTML
JAP
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Checked the Muir summary - and didn't notice Mary Dale's birth. I found an IGI listing for a Mary Dale born Apr 17 1804 Whitby, Yorkshire and died Nov 30 1890. It shows her marriage to Cpt Thomas Muir on Feb 7 1825. It is member submitted, and there are two member submissions with the same info.
There is also a listing for a christening on May 8 1804 at Silver Street Independent, Whitby, Yorkshire. The birth date is also referenced as April 17, 1804 so my guess is it the same Mary Dale as above ;-) Her parents are listed as Richard Dale and Ann. Off to look for a marriage now...
Tom
Oh I hope I found something new......
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Well - we have a marriage on the IGI between a Richard Dale and an Ann Hebron in Whitby on Mar 8 1800. Hmmmm........ Not at the same church however.
Tom
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and a sibling for Mary
Ann Dale born june 4 1807 chr july 17 1807 dau. Richard Dale and Ann at Silver Street Independent
Tom
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Robertsons:
I hope everyone now accepts that Charles Robertson (artist) and son Claude William do NOT belong to our family!
I'm afraid I've missed something (not fully awake, perhaps!): please can someone who's been following Robert Malcolm Robertson, wife Jessie and son Charles explain what connection they think they have to our family? Sorry if I'm being thick this morning!
Charles M Robertson (sailmaker) and family - seem to want to confuse us deliberately! I'm practically certain that the 1871 census entry is for "our" Charles Macrae Robertson, but don't know how to explain the discrepancies with 1861/1881. I'm going to let them simmer for a while, and hopefully come back to them with a fresh mind.
India/Ceylon-born Robertsons? None connected to our family as far as we know...
Love the Tandoori restaurant!
Muir-Harrison
Nice work folk - Ann Elizabeth Muir apparently preferred a man who kept his feet on dry land!
Molison
More loose ends tied up -thanks Pam!
On with the hunt...
Rambler
Tommy - your info just came up! Excellent - more ancestors for Charlotte to follow.
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The various Jessie JOHNSONs
From FreeBMD and previous posts (note JOHNSON with and without a 'T')
Jessie JOHNSON Sep 1852 Vol 8b Page 82 Liverpool
Jessie JOHNSON Dec 1853 Vol. 8b Page 91 Liverpool (posted)
DeathJessie JOHNSON, Mar qtr 1858, Liverpool
Jessie Robertson JOHNSON Dec 1858 Vol 8b page 171 (posted)
Jessie JOHNSTON Mar 1859 Vol 8b Page 112 Liverpool
Jessie Brown JOHNSTON Dec 1860 Vol 8b Page 28 Liverpool
From the IGI (extracted entries)
Jessie JOHNSON
Born: 1853
Christening: 11 May 1854, Saint Paul Saint Paul's Square, Liverpool Lancashire England
Age at Christening: 1
Father: David JOHNSON
Mother: Anne
Jessie Robertson JOHNSON
Born: 17 Nov 1858
Christening: 28 May 1861, Saint Peter, Liverpool Lancashire England
Father: Charles JOHNSON
Mother: Alice
Jessie Brown JOHNSTON (Male)
Born: 18 Dec 1860
Christening: 13 May 1862, Saint Peter, Liverpool Lancashire England
Father: David JOHNSTON
Mother: Ann
It rather looks as though the 1853 Jessie was the daughter of David and Ann, died in 1858, and they named another child Jessie in 1860. As for the 1852 and 1859 Jessies ...
JAP
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Good work on the Yorkshire Dales, Tommy (pun intended!) ::)
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Following in Tommy's footsteps for the Dales...
The 1823 Baine's Directory for Whitby (courtesy of the Genuki Whitby pages), lists:
Thomas Gallilee Dale, Bridge Street, Grocer & Tea Dealer
Ann Dale, Flowergate, Boot & Shoemaker
John Dale, St Anne's staith, Plumber & Glazier
Edward Dale, Skinner Street, Ship Owner
Dale & Backhouse, Church Street, Wharfingers (def: Manager or owner of a wharf)
Thomas Gallilee Dale, chief constable for the wapentake of Whitby Strand, inspector of corn returns & assize of bread, Bridge street
Water Carriage: From Dale and Backhouse's wharf,
Vessels to London every week, during the Summer and once a fortnight during the Winter
Plus, for Muirs:
Ann Muir, Flowergate, Confectioner
The 1861 census has, born Whitby:
John Dale, M, 69, Masonic Annuitant, with wife Margaret, 72 and unmarried daughter Isabella, 43, Milliner and Dressmaker.
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From the 1829 Pigot's Directory for Whitby:
Dale Thomas Gallilee, chief constable and corn inspector, Bridge street
Dale Thomas Gallilee, Bridge street, Tallow Chandler
Dale Jane, Silver street, Shopkeeper & Dealer
Dale John, St. Ann's staith, Plumbers & Glaziers
Dale William, Bridge street, Linen & Woollen Drapers
Dale Thomas Gallilee, Bridge street, Grocer & Tea Merchant
Dale John, St. Ann's staith, Carvers & Gilders
Dale Ann, Flower gate, Boot & Shoemakers
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Robertsons:
please can someone who's been following Robert Malcolm Robertson, wife Jessie and son Charles explain what connection they think they have to our family?
Sorry Rambler, we were trying to tie down Jessies, my answers proved that this one was married to Robert Malcolm and so did NOT belong to us, rather than proving that she did.
Mary
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Sorry Rambler, we were trying to tie down Jessies, my answers proved that this one was married to Robert Malcolm and so did NOT belong to us, rather than proving that she did.
Mary
OK - Glad to hear it! Another red herring eliminated.
Rambler
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Robertsons:
<snip>
Charles M Robertson (sailmaker) and family - seem to want to confuse us deliberately! I'm practically certain that the 1871 census entry is for "our" Charles Macrae Robertson, but don't know how to explain the discrepancies with 1861/1881. I'm going to let them simmer for a while, and hopefully come back to them with a fresh mind.
<snip>
Rambler
Rambler, I've been puzzling over them too - but to no avail.
I have lots of questions/thoughts - remembering again that ROBERTSON and JOHNS(T)ON(E) are pretty common names - but I'll just mention a few in case someone can add some information.
1. The only fairly definite connexion we seem to have between "our" Charles Mackae ROBERTSON and an Alice JOHNSON is:
- A Charles Macral ROBERTSON married an Alice JOHNSON, 1863 Mar qtr St Luke.
- (Not certain as no middle name for Charles) an Ellen Emily ROBERTSON, parents Charles ROBERTSON and Alice was bap 15 May 1864 St Thomas, Stepney (extracted IGI record).
- Hugh Moody ROBERTSON, parents Charles McCrae ROBERTSON and Alice was b 29 Mar, bap 27 Jun 1869 St Dunstans, Stepney (extracted IGI record) - surely must be "our" family.
Questions
Where is Hugh Moody ROBERTSON (b 1869) in 1871 and 1881?
Has anyone found a death record for him, or found a possible Hugh ROBERTSON in the 1871 census?
Is there any other family in the 1871 census (apart from the family we already have) that could be the Charles and Alice who married in 1863, and had Hugh Moody in 1869 and perhaps Ellen Emily in 1864?
We have a possible death record for Charles Macrae between 1871 and 1881 but what about Alice ROBERTSON?
2. We have an 1871 census record with ages apparently all over the place.
Questions
One could understand Charles getting his wife's age wrong (though, if she's the Alice who was 23 in 1861, she should be only 33 rather than 47 in 1871). And one could understand Charles getting his children's (or step-children's) ages wrong. But getting his own age so very wrong? We have him as 47 in the 1871 census but, if he is "our" Charles Mackae ROBERTSON born in 1833, he should be only ca 37.
Has anyone seen the actual image? Might the ages have been wrongly transcribed?
Has anyone found Statutory Register birth entries for Helen (or for an Ellen Emily), Agnes M, and Lilias?
3. 1881 census
Question
Are the people we've picked as Alice jnr, Helen, Agnes and Lilias really the same as the people in the 1871?
4. The JOHNSON children - the only reference (I think) that we have to a father called Charles JOHNSON is the IGI entry for Jessie Robertson JOHNSON.
Questions
Might this be some sort of mix-up or transcription error? Has anyone found a possible Statutory Register marriage entry for a Charles JOHNSON and an Alice (pre the birth of Charles Robertson JOHNSON in 1858)?
Apologies in advance if I've missed posts which answer my questions/thoughts.
And thanks if anyone can answer any of the questions/thoughts!
JAP
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Questions
One could understand Charles getting his wife's age wrong (though, if she's the Alice who was 23 in 1861, she should be only 33 rather than 47 in 1871). And one could understand Charles getting his children's (or step-children's) ages wrong. But getting his own age so very wrong? We have him as 47 in the 1871 census but, if he is "our" Charles Mackae ROBERTSON born in 1833, he should be only ca 37.
Has anyone seen the actual image?
Hi, Had a look again at the image and the first number is definately four but the second number is harder to read because its got a line through it, could be a 1,4 or 7........
Is this family one of ours? (sorry if its been posted before, losing track, its not on the summary)
1881 Knapp? Road, St Leonard, Bromley RG11/0498 Folio 24 Page 41
William Muir 47 (or 9) Sailmaker Bristol, Gloucester
Ann E 47 Bristol, Gloucester
Agness 22 Limehouse Middlesex
James 20 Sailmaker Limehouse Middlesex
Annie 18 Limehouse Middlesex
Tom E 12 Limehouse Middlesex
Amy C 11 Bromley
Jessie M 6 Bromley
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<snip>
I have lots of questions/thoughts - remembering again that ROBERTSON and JOHNS(T)ON(E) are pretty common names - but I'll just mention a few in case someone can add some information.
1. The only fairly definite connexion we seem to have between "our" Charles Mackae ROBERTSON and an Alice JOHNSON is:
- A Charles Macral ROBERTSON married an Alice JOHNSON, 1863 Mar qtr St Luke.
- (Not certain as no middle name for Charles) an Ellen Emily ROBERTSON, parents Charles ROBERTSON and Alice was bap 15 May 1864 St Thomas, Stepney (extracted IGI record).
- Hugh Moody ROBERTSON, parents Charles McCrae ROBERTSON and Alice was b 29 Mar, bap 27 Jun 1869 St Dunstans, Stepney (extracted IGI record) - surely must be "our" family.
Questions
Where is Hugh Moody ROBERTSON (b 1869) in 1871 and 1881?
Has anyone found a death record for him, or found a possible Hugh ROBERTSON in the 1871 census?
Is there any other family in the 1871 census (apart from the family we already have) that could be the Charles and Alice who married in 1863, and had Hugh Moody in 1869 and perhaps Ellen Emily in 1864?
We have a possible death record for Charles Macrae between 1871 and 1881 but what about Alice ROBERTSON?
Here's the 1871 entry that fits the closest. I will caveat all my posts with a sorry if posted before I haven't been clever enough to create a word doc.
RG10/3847 Ed 49 P 6
1871 West Derby
78 White Rock St
Charles M Robertson Head 41 Sailmaker London, Middlesex
Alice Robertson Wife 47 Liverpool, Lancashire
Charles M Robertson Son 18 Liverpool, Lancashire
Jessie Robertson Daughter 17 Liverpool, Lancashire
Alice M Robertson Daughter 14 Stepney, London
Helen E Robertson Daughter 10 Stepney, London
Agnes M Robertson Daughter 8 Hertfordshire
Lilias Robertson Daughter 5 Stratford, Middlesex
No Hugh present.
Cheers,
Pam
;D
PS Sorry I'm bleary eyed - I just got what you meant and you already have this family. Doh!
Ok ok I totally lost the plot on this post. Trying to reclaim some dignity I can say that the ages are quite clear except for Charles (the head & father).
I'm a wee bit confused still over Charles Moody Robertson son of George and whether this is where we are confusing the families?
Also, this Alice was born in Liverpool by virtue of the 1871 census yet the Alice mentioned as marrying Charles Macrae Robertson is thought to be baptised in Stepney. Obviously this is possible but is it likely?
P :D
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Marriage of a Lilias Robertson to a George Herbert Preston Dec 1895 Vol. 8b Page 390 Toxteth Park, and on the 1901 census shes on her own with son Ronald 5months and 2 servants, Crosby, Waterloo, Lancs (married, not widowed, so husband away) RG13/3444 Folio154 Page44. Her age puts her year of birth at 1869..........
Have you noticed a Lilias Robertson, "foster daughter/housekeeper" aged 33 on the 1891 census, living in Stepney, London, with another "foster daughter" Beatrice Amy Hart aged 11, and James Orson Hansford widower aged 61 Hammer-Man Engineer E&M
RG12/294 Folio 58 Page 10
Lilias uncommon name and cant find any others on Ancestry.....
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On the 1871 census the age of our Alice Robertson is 47.
On the 1881 census there is an Alice Robertson, aged 57, annuitant, widower visiting a shipowners family, the Cruikshanks in Toxteth Park, Lancs. The husband is away, so dont know his name, but his wife is called Isabelle J?, and another visitor is 19 year old Douglas D Robertson, Clerk. Some of the Cruikshank children were born Canada, and the enumerator has put Alices place of birth as Canada and Douglas's :-\ (RG11/3650 Folio 100 Page 37)
Dont know if these fit in with ours but it looks like they do.....
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Oo oo Cat our posts are intertwining ;D
I've posted an image of the ages from 1871 in my previous mail as Cat says Charles' age isn't clear cut.
Douglas D Robertson could be Douglas Dunbar Robertson.
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The 1881 census Cat has found she is Alice K Robertson and Douglas D Robertson is listed as BROTHER.
Not exactly sure who he is brother to as there is no HEAD listed. Isabella is listed as wife.
Pam
;D
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Have we got this family ? - the Muirs and Robertsons uniting again - (looking at the BVRI, these families - Robertsons/Muirs/Molisons/Ewing etc, have been intermarrying for centuries)
Agnes Robertson m. John Muir Dec 1852 West Derby Vol.8b Page 554
1861 Everton, Lancs, 20 St Albans RG9/2715 Folio 16 Page 26
John Muir 42 Master Mariner Edinburgh
Agnes 36 Edinburgh
Janet 10 Edinburgh
John 6 Liverpool
Charles 5 Liverpool
Agnes 2 Liverpool
Janet Muir Grandmother 66 Widow "Air" Scotland
Robert Donald Visitor Mechanic 29 Widower Greenock
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Since I shamed myself posting an oft repeated census entry I've copied all the census entries that have been mentioned into a Word doc. I've saved this as a text document so everyone should be able to open it?
Thought it maybe useful.
I may have duplicates in there and I may have missed a couple if nthey weren't transcribed in a standard format.
I've included page numbers which correspond to this thread. SO if you want to find the post go to the page and ctrl F.
Cheers,
Pam
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As a person who has continually repeated census information - I appreciate that!! Mary tried to help me but I have a Mac and couldn't open it - but I got this one :P :P
Trouble is - now I have no excuse - I just have to be more diligent ::) ::) :Thanks Pammy!!
Annie
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Really helpful Pam! Now, with the benefit of MR's summary, Mary's word file of the thread and your census listings, we should have no excuse for repeating info. But I'm sure we still will! :)
Pau
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At the risk of repeating some answers, here goes again ...
JAP Thank you for asking the questions clarifying the queries.
I’m sorry to keep going back to this family, but they are one of the few that hopefully at least one of the members have been brought through to 1901 and so have the chance of making a living connection.
1.
Where is Hugh Moody ROBERTSON (b 1869) in 1871 and 1881?
No “Moody” Robertsons of any variations showing up in 1871 or 1881.
1871
Hugh M Robertson in West Derby born Liverpool 1869, son of Hugh M Robertson born Cheshire. (probably in West Derby Union Workhouse School in 1881)
Hugh Robertson born Stepney approx 1865, son of Alexander and Eleanor.
No death record found.
Is there any other family in the 1871 census (apart from the family we already have) that could be the Charles and Alice who married in 1863, and had Hugh Moody in 1869 and perhaps Ellen Emily in 1864?
Not that I have been able to find.
We have a possible death record for Charles Macrae between 1871 and 1881 but what about Alice ROBERTSON?
I think we may have had this before, not sure – based on the age in 1861 Alice Robertson Deaths Age 35 June qtr 1873 West Derby Lancashire 8b 218. The Charles McCree I found, age 43 March qtr 1877 Wirral Cheshire 8a 309 was presumed because of son Charles moving to Birkenhead – I know this was in the 1891 census, with Jessie Brownlow but it was the only thing I could think of and also finding Lilias in school in Cheshire in 1881.
2.
Has anyone seen the actual image? Might the ages have been wrongly transcribed?
Image already on page, dubious for Charles
Has anyone found Statutory Register birth entries for Helen (or for an Ellen Emily), Agnes M, and Lilias?
Also a rather dubious possibility for Lilias Robertson:
Mar qtr 1868 - ROBERTSON Lilies Mile End 1c 614
3.
Are the people we've picked as Alice jnr, Helen, Agnes and Lilias really the same as the people in the 1871?
That’s the six million dollar question, but apart from Lilias being separate from the others, the coincidence of names seems overwhelming.
possible Statutory Register marriage entry for a Charles JOHNSON and an Alice
only the unlikely one for Alice Duffy 1852 Cathedral, Manchester.
Pam
Also, this Alice was born in Liverpool by virtue of the 1871 census yet the Alice mentioned as marrying Charles Macrae Robertson is thought to be baptised in Stepney. Obviously this is possible but is it likely?
I think this refers to Alice the daughter not Alice the mother.
1. Alice Maud Johnson b 1/10.1860 C 27/5/1861 St Peter Liverpool 1861 census says 6 months, born Stepney. Just because she was christened in Liverpool doesn’t mean she was born Liverpool.
2. JOHNSON Alice Mary Dec qtr 1859 - Stepney 1c 514 – this would make her over 1 year old in 1861 so not ours.
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I haven't summarised or anything :-\ So Mary's doc will be better as it contains more I just couldn't fit the full txt doc as an attachment.
I think I now know more about this family than my own!
P ;D
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Me too - and I'm still working on Claude but every creative thought I have - turns up Claude W ....
Annie :P
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To return to the Muirs:
Thomas Muir's birth (10 Apr 1799) comes from Sedona's info - there isn't an IGI entry. There are 2 user-submitted entries for the marriage of his parents, James Muir and Ann Robinson in Whitby on 28 Sep 1791 or 1792.
Extracted records for other children (parents given as James Muir and Ann):
James Muir - 8 Oct 1801, Whitby
William Muir - 25 Feb 1804, Whitby
John Robinson Muir - 13 Feb 1806, Whitby
Rambler
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Thanks everyone for all the thoughts and information and summaries!
I'm afraid I'm working only with what's been posted and with freebies online - I don't subscribe to 1837online or to Ancestry - which is why I asked so many of these questions ; (
And I'm very far indeed from doubting that all the people we are talking about are the same family - but answers to some questions might rule out all possibility that they are not (if that's not too convoluted!)
<snip>
Where is Hugh Moody ROBERTSON (b 1869) in 1871 and 1881?
Has anyone found a death record for him, or found a possible Hugh ROBERTSON in the 1871 census?
This one seems to be a real puzzle.
We have Hugh Moody ROBERTSON b 29 Mar 1869 (we don't know where) and bap 27 Jun 1869 at St Dunstans Stepney, son of Charles McCrae ROBERTSON and Alice.
The only Hugh R b ca 1869 in the 1871 census seems to be one b in Liverpool and living with father Hugh ROBERTSON in West Derby. And there's a Hugh R b ca 1869 in West Derby in the West Derby Union Workhouse in 1881. So, yes, one would have to think that Hugh in the Workhouse is the same as Hugh son of Hugh.
If that's the case, where is Hugh Moody, son of Charles and Alice in 1871 and 1881?
So it would be great to have all the GRO Index records of a Hugh ROBERTSON born (anywhere) ca 1869, and deaths of any ditto from then until after the 1881 census.
We have a possible death record for Charles Macrae between 1871 and 1881 but what about Alice ROBERTSON?
That 1873 death in West Derby of an Alice ROBERTSON certainly sounds an interesting possibility - but I guess it could be unconnected.
Has anyone found Statutory Register birth entries for Helen (or for an Ellen Emily), Agnes M, and Lilias?
If anyone can find these it would be helpful if only to rule things out.
So far we have an Ellen Emily ROBERTSON bap 1864 Stepney in the IGI, and a Helen ROBERTSON 10 b Stepney, Agnes M ROBERTSON 8 b Hertfordshire, and Lilias ROBERTSON 5 b Stratford, in the 1871 census.
And in 1881 (at Ockham School, Hampshire) Alic(sic) ROBERTSON {age 29 (should be ca 20!), b London, Asst Matron}, Helen ROBERTSON {age 17, b London, scholar}, Agnes ROBERTSON {age 14, b Bushey Hertfordshire, scholar}; and (at school in Cheshire) Lilias ROBERTSON {age 13, b London}.
Getting the births of Ellen Emily and/or Helen, Agnes M, and Lilias ROBERTSON in the GRO Index would be useful if only to ascertain their real ages.
Still puzzling,
JAP
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I wish I was able to get to a Record Office to search the indexes as they are sometimes better quality than those online, well the freebie ones anyway. You can see the images on FreeBMD but they have probably only got those that they have transcribed already, so if our other girls aren't transcribed, its probably useless to search for the scans, and its very time consuming to find the right one anyway.
As we had the "dubious Lillies" I did go for that one and I would say that it reads Lilias, with this quality to work with its no wonder the transcribers aren't positive.
March Quarter 1868
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JAP
The Alice Robertson in 1881 at Ockham School I don't believe to be "ours".
I posted a few pages back the following
RG11/0134 folio 40 page 21
Alice M Robertson visitor unm 22 Lady of Means b: London
There's a few more well to do's also visiting ;D
Susan :)
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Sorry Susan, I'd missed that post, so much to follow.
We have to remember that there are two Alice M's born within a year of each other, both in the London area. I wish we knew any of the other names in the household to link her to.
Annie Horndey (maybe Torndey), householder with visitors John (Lieut Col Indian Army Retired) and Sarah A Anderson, Alfred Ince (British Guard or is there a place British Guano?) D J Overman (Merchant) and Alice M Robertson.
I think there are two points against this one.
1. Is she a Lady of Means? Apart from somebody affording to send the girls to boarding school, Father was a sailmaker. Do we have evidence of money in this branch of the family?
2. I just have the feeling that she took the job at the school to be near the other two.
Mary
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is there a place British Guano?)
Could be British Guiana (British Guyana)
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June quarter 1869
Hugh Robertson West Derby 8b 104? page number unclear
Hugh Moody Robertson Mile End 1?c 520
So there we have confirmation of the two Hughs, I would suspect that Hugh's son Hugh in 1871 and in the Workhouse in 1881 will be the first.
How lucky was that they were both registered in the same quarter.
Mary
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Instead of looking for Claude being alive, maybe we should be looking for Claude being dead? since we cant find him anywhere.
IMO
BD
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Instead of looking for Claude being alive, maybe we should be looking for Claude being dead? since we cant find him anywhere.
IMO
BD
Yes, BD - I for one would settle for a dead Claude! Thing is, he's around in 1881 and 1891 but nowhere to be seen as a 4 yr old in 1871. He's certainly not with his parents then, who are on one of the regular Robertson visits to relatives.
Maybe at sea with other relatives? We're not likely to find him in 1871 so a death before 1901 would be good to find.
Yet given that neither Alan, Charlotte or Douglas Robertson are enumerated in 1901, do we not suspect a mass Robertson emigration?
cheers
Paul
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Paul
He's with the Servant aged 4 as Claude Robinson remember ??? ??? ??? ???
Annie
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Humble apologies Annie! ::) I plead overload and stand corrected - we're missing Claude only in 1901.
cheers
Paul
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Here are a lot of familiar names - but the image doesn't match up so I can't check it out - but can anybody else get access ?
1881
Alexander Robertson abt 1834 Scotland Head 13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London
Alexandra A. Robertson abt 1869 Camberwell, Surrey Daughter 13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London
Ernest F. Robertson abt 1880 Poplar, Middlesex Unknown 13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London
Gilbert C. Robertson abt 1873 South Hackney, Middlesex Son 13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London
Isabella B. Robertson abt 1879 Poplar, Middlesex Daughter 13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London,
Isabella I. Robertson abt 1841 Scotland Wife 13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London
John S. Robertson abt 1875 South Hackney, Middlesex Son 13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London
Murray E. Robertson abt 1880 Poplar, Middlesex Unknown 13 Arbour St West, Hamlet, London
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I asked Rutti Tutti in South Africa to help us and this is what she found ......
DESCRIPTION ERECTION OF MEMORIAL TO CAPTAIN CLAUDE ROBERTSON AND LIEUT. WILSON AT RUSTENBURG. STARTING 19040619 ENDING 19040912
This is Claude W....................???
DESCRIPTION RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS OF CRIMINAL CASE. CRIMINAL SESSION, AUGUST 1944. REX VERSUS HAROLD KAYE, ROBERT WILLIAM VENNING, CLAUDE ROBERTSON, ARTHUR LYON LITTLEJOHN, ROBERT CECIL JOHNSON AND SAMUEL CARNOFSKY, CHARGED WITH THEFT. STARTING 19440000 ENDING 19440000
I think this makes our Claude too old to be this guy ???
DEPOT TAB SOURCE MHG TYPE LEER SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 11777/72 PART 1 DESCRIPTION ROBERTSON, CLAUDE CYRIL. STARTING 19720000 ENDING 19720000 REMARKS SURVIVING SPOUSE MURIEL HAMILTON ROBERTSON
Waiting back on this one - possible Son ???
I was hoping but high hopes are dwindling.............
Annie :P
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More Muirs
Thomas Muir's brother William (b.1804) m. Betsey Wilson on 3 Aug 1830 in Sculcoates, Yorkshire. (Extracted IGI record. User-submitted version says 28 Feb 1804.) Children:
Mary Ann Muir- 17 Jul 1833, Whitby
William Robinson Muir - 8 Oct 1836, Whitby
Thomas and William's brother John Robinson Muir was married twice - here's his second marriage:
Mar 1861 - Whitby 9d 608:
John Robinson MUIR
Margaret KIDSON
And on the 1861 census:
2 West Terrace, Whitby
John Robinson Muir Head 53 Butcher b. Whitby
Margaret Muir Wife 48 b. Whitby
George Young Muir Son 13 b. Whitby
James William (?)Cumphus Muir Son 5 b. Whitby
Margaret Kidson Dau 12 b. Glasgow
William Henry Kidson Son 10 b. Whitby
(RG9/3648 - Folio 112 - Pg 29)
There are Free BMD entries for the births of George Young Muir (Sep 1847 Whitby 24 570 ) and James William Muir (Jun 1856 Whitby 9d 392).
Also a birth for John Robinson Muir (Dec 1845 Whitby 24 340) who presumably belongs to one of the Muir brothers.
The Elizabeth Muir who dies in Whitby in Dec qtr 1859 (Whitby 9d 292 ) may be John Robinson Muir's first wife.
Rambler
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Fantastic work Pam and MaryA!
So, here's an update on the puzzling Charles Mackae ROBERTSON and Alice JOHNSON lot.
1833 London
Charles Mackae ROBERTSON, b 25 May, bap 25 Jul 1833, Saint Vincent Street Scotch Church, Stepney, parents George ROBERTSON and Mary (extracted entry IGI)
*****
1857 Liverpool
1. Charles Robertson JOHNSON, birth, June qtr 1857 8b 238 Liverpool
1858 Liverpool
2. Jessie Robertson JOHNSON, birth, Dec qtr 1858, 8b 171, Liverpool
1860 London
3. Alice Maud JOHNSON, birth, Dec qtr 1860, Mile End Old Town, vol 1c, page 533 (Mile End Old Town was a district created Oct 1857 out of Stepney district so not surprising that Alice’s birthplace is later given as Stepney)
There’s also, on FreeBMD, the birth of an Alice Maud JOHNSON in Islington – interesting given the location where Charles and Alice married in 1863; but Mile End more likely.
At her christening in Liverpool in May 1861, Alice Maud's birthdate is given as 1 Oct 1860. And later her birthplace is given as London. So it all fits.
This suggests that, some time between 17 Nov 1858 (Jessie's birth) and 1 Oct 1860 (Alice jnr's birth), Alice snr has moved to London with her two Liverpool-born children, Charles Robertson JOHNSON and Jessie Robertson JOHNSON
1861 (7/8 April) Essex
Wanstead, Essex, RG9/1060 Folio 134 Page 4
Mary ROBERTSON Head Widow 63 Sailmakers widow Paisley Scotland
Hugh Moody 32 Sailmaker All born Limehouse Middlesex
Agnes 30
Charles Mackae 27
Mary 21
Janet 21
James 18
Plus 3 visitors and 3 servants
Another posting lists Charles Mackae as:
"Charles Mackae Robertson 27, b. Limehouse. Unmarried, living with his mother" (i.e. in Wanstead, Essex)
Hmmm-hmm-hm!
1861 (7/8 April) London
RG9/293 Mile End Old Town Western Folio 177 Page 12
18 Wm Street North
Alice JOHNSON Wife Mar 23 b Lancashire Liverpool
Charles Son 3 Scholar b Lancashire Liverpool
Jessie daur 2 b Lancashire Liverpool
Alice M daur 6 months b Middlesex Stepney
We now have Alice living in London with no sign of a husband, and with her two Liverpool-born children and her London-born baby daughter Alice jnr
Can anyone find a married Charles JOHNSON without a wife anywhere in 1861?
1861 (May) Liverpool
Alice Maud JOHNSON b 1 Oct 1860, bap 27 May 1861, St Peter, Liverpool, parents Charles JOHNSON and Alice (extracted entry IGI)
Jessie Robertson JOHNSON, b 17 Nov 1858, chr 28 May 1861, St Peter Liverpool, parents Charles JOHNSON and Alice (extracted entry IGI)
Why did Alice snr take Jessie and Alice jnr back to Liverpool to be christened (and why the two different dates - 27 and 28 - and why wasn't Charles also christened then)? Could it be that Charles Mackae ROBERTSON visited the family firm in Liverpool from time to time, and was known in Liverpool at times as Charles JOHNSON - and was actually the father of Charles J, Jessie J (both b Liverpool with middle name Robertson) and Alice Maud J (b London)? We've found only one marriage of a Charles JOHNSON and an Alice - in Manchester in 1852 which seems unlikely. And we haven't found an appropriate Charles JOHNSON in the 1861 census, nor the death of a Charles JOHNSON before our Charles R married Alice in 1863. But perhaps there truly was a husband called Charles JOHNSON who died between the time of the 1861 census and Alice's marriage to Charles Mackae ROBERTSON in early 1863 ...
1863 London
Charles Macral ROBERTSON married Alice JOHNSON, Mar qtr 1863, St Luke (St Luke is now in Islington, London)
1864 London
4. Helen ROBERTSON, birth, Mar qtr 1864, Mile End, Vol 1c, Page 552
(Seems likely to be our Helen)
Ellen Emily ROBERTSON, bap 15 May 1864, St Thomas, Stepney, parents Charles ROBERTSON and Alice
Later Note: 1866 Hertfordshire
5. Agnes M ROBERTSON birth, Sept qtr 1866, Watford, Vol 3a, Page 305
1868 London
6. Lilias ROBERTSON, birth, Mar qtr 1868, Mile End, Vol 1c Page 614
1869 London
6. Hugh Moody ROBERTSON, birth Jun qtr 1869, Mile End, Vol 1?c Page 520
Hugh Moody ROBERTSON, b 29 Mar, bap 27 Jun 1869, St Dunstan, Stepney, parents Charles McCrae ROBERTSON and Alice
(There’s another Hugh ROBERTSON bap in the same qtr and year in West Derby. He’s probably the son of a Hugh M ROBERTSON, and is the Hugh ROBERTSON b West Derby who is in a Union Workhouse School in Kirkdale, Lancashire in 1881)
We haven't found our Hugh Moody ROBERTSON in 1871 or 1881 - perhaps he died though we haven't found a death record yet.
1871 Lancashire
RG10/3847 Ed 49 P 6
West Derby
78 White Rock St
Charles M Robertson Head 41 Sailmaker London, Middlesex
Alice Robertson Wife 47 Liverpool, Lancashire
Charles M Robertson Son 18 Liverpool, Lancashire
Jessie Robertson Daughter 17 Liverpool, Lancashire
Alice M Robertson Daughter 14 Stepney, London
Helen E Robertson Daughter 10 Stepney, London
Agnes M Robertson Daughter 8 Hertfordshire
Lilias Robertson Daughter 5 Stratford, Middlesex (note Stratford will be Stratford-le-Bow often known as Bow)
So, they've now moved to West Derby (interesting in itself) - and the ages are wildly astray. Perhaps Charles took the instruction to fill it in at midnight literally - and was a little the worse for wear by the time midnight arrived
Part 2 to follow
JAP
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Charles Mackae ROBERTSON and Alice JOHNSON, Part 2
Part 1 finished with the family (the JOHNSON children now recorded as ROBERTSON children) in West Derby, Lancashire but with ages astray as follows:
1871 West Derby, Lancashire
RG10/3847 Ed 49 P 6
West Derby
78 White Rock St
Charles M Robertson Head 41 Sailmaker London, Middlesex
(age should be about 37 from 1861 census and baptismal entry)
Alice Robertson Wife 47 Liverpool, Lancashire
(age should be about 33 from age of 23 in 1861 census)
Charles M Robertson Son 18 Liverpool, Lancashire
(age should be about 13/14 from 1857 birth entry and 13 from age of 3 in 1861 census - and where did that middle initial of 'M' come from and what does it stand for)
Jessie Robertson Daughter 17 Liverpool, Lancashire
(age should be about 12 from 1858 birth entry, and from age of 2 in 1861 census, and from date of birth of 1 Oct 1858 in baptismal record)
Alice M Robertson Daughter 14 Stepney, London
(age should be about 10 from 1860 birth entry, age of 6 months in 1861 census, and date of birth of 1 Oct 1860 in baptismal record)
Helen E Robertson Daughter 10 Stepney, London
(age should be about 7 from 1864 birth entry, and baptismal record.)
Agnes M Robertson Daughter 8 Hertfordshire
Lilias Robertson Daughter 5 Stratford, Middlesex
(age should be about 3 from 1868 brith entry)
1873 West Derby, Lancashire
Alice ROBERTSON, death, Age 35 June qtr 1873 West Derby Lancashire 8b 218
(Could well be our Alice, formerly JOHNSON –age fits with age of 23 in the 1861 census and she hasn’t been found in the 1881 census)
1877 Wirral, Cheshire
Charles McCree ROBERTSON, death, age 43 March qtr 1877 Wirral Cheshire 8a 309
(Could well be our Charles – age fits pretty well with age of 27 in the 1861 census, and baptismal year of 1833, and he hasn’t been found in the 1881 census)
So, is the family of Charles and Alice (perhaps including some step-children of Charles but perhaps none are step-children but all are his own children) now orphaned?
1881 census
At Ockham School in Hampshire, we have Alic(sic) Robertson (29 - though someone gave this as 20? Later Note: MaryA has now posted the relevant section of the image and it is clearly 20 with a line through it so this is surely "our" Alice) b. London, as assistant matron. Scholars include Helen Robertson (17), b. London (right for our Helen/Ellen) and Agnes Robertson (14) b. Bushey, Herts (we don't have her birth entry yet but her birthplace is given on the 1871 census as Hertfordshire).
Lilias Robertson (13) b. London (right for our Lilias) is at a different school in Cheshire.
Note: FamilySearch is down - I'll fill in details when it comes back up
There is also an Alice M ROBERTSON 22 unm Lady of Means b London who might be possible but I prefer Alice at the school if her age is OK Later Note: It is - from MaryA's image - so let's stick with Alice working at the school where her sisters (or half-sisters?) Helen and Agnes are scholars.
Lilias being a fairly uncommon name (as was stated) the following which have been posted certainly look relevant.
1891 London
There has been mention of a Lilias ROBERTSON, "foster daughter/housekeeper" aged 33 (should be 23) on the 1891 census, living in Stepney, London, with another "foster daughter" Beatrice Amy Hart aged 11, and James Orson Hansford widower aged 61 Hammer-Man Engineer E&M
RG12/294 Folio 58 Page 10
Later Note; MaryA has posted the relevant section of the image and the age is clearly 33, and birthplace Miliwall(sic). There is a birth on FreeBMD in 1858 for a Lilias ROBERTSON (in Poplar) so that seems to rule out Lilias the foster daughter/housekeeper as being ours.
1895 Liverpool
There has been mention of the marriage of a Lilias ROBERTSON to a George Herbert PRESTON Dec 1895 Vol. 8b Page 390 St Pauls, Toxteth Park
1901 Lancashire
19 Hyde Road, Waterloo, Waterloo with Seaforth, Parliamentary Borough of Southport (which means its in Lancashire, not the Waterloo in London )
Lilias PRESTON Wife M 32 London Bow (age and birthplace right for our Lilias ROBERTSON)
Ronald Son 5 months Lancs Waterloo
Minnie " Servant S 28 General Servant (Domestic) " Liverpool
Jean Butter Serv S 15 " "
Hope all this collated stuff is of some use ; )
Will gladly correct bloopers and omissions.
JAP
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JAP, I hope some of this helps
Lilias had been farmed out to a school in Cheshire Rock Lane, Tattenhall RG11/3552 Chester Tattenhall Folio 111 Page 30 the Head is Jane Birch.
There is no school name, the entry is just noted as Rocky Lane, Lilias birthplace just noted as London.
The entry for Alice has a downward stroke from the 0 but as can be seen from the column to the left there is also one there, I think these have been made by the enumerator when adding up. There is a 9 further up the page which looks quite different.
The entry for Lilias looks fairly clear at 33, I expect the thing to do is to find another birth for a Lilias in 1858. I've included the whole line from this scan so the birthplace can be seen. My knowledge of London geography isn't good, is Millwall near to Stepney and other places we know about?
Mary
Berlin Bob: I hope no-one minds, but as the width of the images was making the thread difficult to read, I've "cut" each image into two parts and made two "lines" out of each one.
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Sorry to widen the page like that, are we near the bottom? or shall I make the images smaller?
I thought we had a birth for Lilias but there is this one which I can't find on my summary so maybe we didn't. Probably the 33 year old one in 1891.
Lilias Robertson, birth June qtr 1858 Poplar London Middlesex 1c 577
Annie (click one page to the right to get the image)
Mary
Berlin Bob: Mary, I've done it for you.See above
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Hello again MaryA,
My knowledge of London districts is mainly that gained from Googling Genuki and Multimap!
And yes, there is a Lilias ROBERTSON in 1858 - in Poplar (which includes Bow ...). I think Millwall (near Camberwell, in Isle of Dogs?) could be fine for this - no doubt someone will correct this!
The age of 33 is very clear so I think Lilias the housekeeper is out of our picture.
Cheers,
Judy
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Trying to find her on the 1881 and 1901 census to definitely rule her out isn't easy, I would try harder if I thought it was worth it to confirm she WAS, but not that she wasN'T. She's not with James Hansford on either census. There is no death for a Lilias Robertson, nor ay other marriage except the one I have and being in the Toxteth Park area, well maybe she came back to family after school. The age in 1901 fits anyway, although I think she is still missing in 1891. I'll have to have another look.
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MaryA,
Sorry about posting what you'd just posted! Whatever the case, it does seem that the foster child/housekeeper isn't ours (though who knows if she might come from a connected line!) so I'll modify my summary post. I think I'd feel as you do - not really worth chasing up the 33yo Lilias.
But the Lilias who married George PRESTON surely is "ours". And the image for Alic(sic) at the school where Helen and Agnes are, is clearly a zero with a line through it (thanks for great image!) so that has to be our Alice! Perhaps Lilias was at a different school because she was too young for the other school (FamilySearch is still down so I can't check the ages of other pupils).
It's great to see the images! All my ancestors left England (and Scotland and Ireland) way way back so I've never subscribed to Ancestry or 1837online - but there's certainly lots of information available.
I would love to see the entries in the St Peter Liverpool OPR for the christenings of Jessie and Alice - just in case they throw some light on the Papa! I've probably had the relevant films out in the past - I have HACKING ancestors from Liverpool and they married/christened in St Peter (not to mention St Nicholas and St Luke and even St John Haymarket). Just as an aside, you can imagine what it's like Googling for 'hacking' in this computer age!
Best Regards,
JAP
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Is Edgware Road anywhere near Bow please anybody? There seems to be 3 of them on streetmap.co.uk
1891 36 Alfred Place, St Giles, Holborn
Frederick Ashton Gideon Driver/Divan Head M 49 Collector of Income Tax Civ C London Islington
Sarah Wife M 42 " Stepney
Charles A H Nephew 10 Scholar Middlesex Ray of Wriean
Myra JS Niece 7 " " Arkariane
Lilian Robertson Nurse S 24 Nurse (Domestic) London Edgware Road
If this is our girl, she's been about quite a bit.
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Hi Mary
There doesn;t seem to be an Edgware Rd in Bow (Bow is East London, Edgeware road is in North and West) :(
Paul
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Can't stop laughing at your "Hackings" Judy ;D ;D
Its nice having somebody else searching for the same people, bouncing ideas off each other helps a bit, so I like your summaries.
Could be right about her being too young for the other school.
I believe the transcriptions on familysearch give the same information as are on the parish register for St Peter, christenings don't give very much detail.
The ages of the other two are clearly Helen 17 and Agnes 14, send me a pm with your email address and I'll forward you the scans for the school (2 pages listing Robertsons). Try something - search the 1881 census on Ancestry.com and see if you can see the scans. It's free to search I know, but don't know whether they have made the scans available too.
Paul - maybe that's a Lilian after all, not our girl, thanks.
Mary
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MaryA,
I've actually found some not bad stuff in the actual Liverpool OPRs - certainly more than is indexed on FamilySearch.
Mostly in St Nick's but here's one from St Peter: this is the daughter of my Ggggpa William HACKING - yes that dreadful name - and his second wife, the Widow JONAS (nee BELLIN):
Page 133
BAPTISMS solemnized in the Parish Church of ST. PETER, Liverpool, in the County of LANCASTER, in the Year One Thousand Eight Hundred and Thirty (six)
1836 July No. 1060
When Baptized 24
Child's Christian Name Lydia
Parents' Name Christian William & Lydia
Surname Hacking
Abode Fontenoy St
Quality, Trade or Profession Cabinet Maker
By whom the Ceremony was performed Thos. Halton Curate
It's always worth looking at the actual OPRs - I have some utter gems! Here's one from Nottinghamshire for my Ggggma Hannah TINK(L)ER later FREEMAN:
Parish Register for 1803 lists TINKER, Hannah, born Thursday the 13th January and baptized Sunday the 20th February. Under 'Father's Name Abode, Profession and Descent' it lists "John Tinker of Finningley, Labourer Son of Samuel Tinker of Bentley Labourer by Ann Daughter of". Under 'Mother's Name and Descent' it lists "Helen Daughter of Robert Walker of Corthourn Shoe-maker by Ann Daughter of" . The IGI entry has the mother's name as Eleanor but it is clearly Helen in the Register.
Well, I hope that might encourage people to look at the original OPR films (though please without false expectations).
But it's high time to get back to our hero Allan!
I will PM you my address.
JAP
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Hi folks,
Just reading through to see how it's going. I have been trying to put the map I have of the area in and around Stepney etc, as my own research is this same area.
But can I do it, huh, can I 'eck.
Read most of the links to various forum's etc on posting images.
At one time got 'orrible lines all across poor old puta's screen.
Is it anything to do with aol?
Anyway, Stepney, Shadwell,Limehouse,Mile End are all around St George.,along side the Thames, West and East India Dockyards.
Lesanne.
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I have found a birth for Agnes
Agnes M Robertson Sept. qtr 1866 3a 305 Watford
The census says pob Hertfordshire and as Watford is in Herts ....... ;D
and I reckon this could be reg. for Alice
Alice Maud Johnson Dec. qtr 1860 Mile End 1c 533
Alice Johnson was living Mile End 1861 RG9/293 folio 177 page 12
Susan :)
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Well everybody, I managed a quick hour in the records office and came up with two jackpots ..... well one could be a bit of bad news, in fact .... so could the other, but at least I found what I went for.
St Peter, Liverpool
Jessie Robertson Johnson, birth 17/11/1858, christened 28/5/1861, parents Charles and Alice, Abode: Prescot Street, Occupation is BOOK KEEPER.
No sign of Charles christening there by the way.
and there is no dratted Jessie living with those parents in Liverpool in 1861, I'm trying to find Prescot Street in the 1861 enumeration districts but its going to be a long job ...... unless anybody has access to the street index, I know there is one on one of the genealogy sites but its a subscription access and I don't have it.
If Charles and Jessie were in London in connection with his work in 1861 then where is he???
The other piece of information I have, so that we can put this poor wee mite to bed finally is:
Deaths
Hugh Moody Robertson 1869 (oh blast I forgot to write down the quarter, it must have been December cos I found it first off) Mile End 1c 435 AGE 0.
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This has nothing to do with what you're talking about Mary - but this is a site that's worth taking a look at - if you want to know about streets in old Liverpool might even find something of interest there :P :P
Annie
http://liverpool-1825.tripod.com/
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Annie, that looks like a good site to have a ramble through, I have details of my own family earlier than the censuses so I'll see what I can find on there. Thanks
Mary
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MaryA, Its only Charles that missing in 1861 isnt it?? Alice (23), Charles Junior (3), Jessie (2) and Alice M (6mths) are the ones in Stepney aren't they, William Street North, Mile End Old Town RG9/293 Folio 177 Page 12. (sorry to be thick but its hard to keep track of who we're still looking for.....except Claude......no one could forget him :)
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yes It seems to be a Charles Johnson we're missing and if we have the right Jessie, as in the christening details I found in St Peters, then he should be a book keeper.
What I'm trying to do is figure out whether this Jessie, with parents Charles and Alice are different ones to those you have listed.
Mary
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Oh right......theres an interesting Charles Johnson (35) and wife Alice (29) on the 1871 census, in Mile End Old Town, Stepney, Rigger and Mariner, but his birthplace is Sweden!!! Got a child Alice M too, aged 1 though (+ other children and lodgers)......wonder if they're connected in anyway..... (RG10/556 Folio 85 Page 53 if anyone wants to take a look) Probably just a coincidence to confuse me!! :)
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I hope it IS just to confuse you as if the older children aren't in evidence then there is no connection, it's only when we found Charles together with family that we made the connection - that is Charles ROBERTSON by that time.
Mary
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Why are all the Charles Robertsons/Johnsons I find Master Mariners/Mariners/Riggers??!! Cant find any bookkeepers!! (just found one lodging on 1861 census in Stepney, plus several others in the area!!) oh well, gonna take a break and see whats been found in the morning.....no doubt there'll be 2/3 more pages by then :)
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OK, having scoured Liverpool for Prescot Street only to find it listed under the West Derby District, I then personally knocked on every house - about 200 in all I'll have you know! ;D ;D and interrogated the families about any Johnsons or Robertsons in the area, all without success. I conclude:
Alice and family in London in 1861 ARE our family and were enumerated there for the census, subsequently returning before the end of May to have Jessie christened in St Peters. At two and a half years old I bet the little brat ran all over the place and squawked when the vicar chucked water over her head too.
There are any number of deaths for father Charles Johnson before 1871 so you can take your pick.
Just one thought, if young Hugh Moody was born and died in Mile End to this family, then they did an awful lot of moving about.
HOWEVER, how would it have been if Alice and Charles Johnson just came home to visit family and got Jessie christened while they were home, after all St Peters is a prestigious church and maybe they saved it up.
Blast, I've just remembered I was supposed to look at another christening on 27th wasn't I while I was there? I know somebody's going to bring that up and it completely slipped my list before I went as I only had an hour and wanted to cram in quite a lot of things, sorry! and now I can't even find the other one which was the day before.
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Hi Mary,
Found this one on the BMD I told you about
Hugh Moody Robertson 0 Sept. qtr. 1869 Mile End vol 1c page 435.
Save you going back to have another look ;D
Susan
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Thanks Susan, he died before the next 3 months was up, his death listed above.
Oh sorry, I just realised that is the death date?? Didn't know you had it. It's one of those questions that always seemed to be being asked which is why I went to town to see if I could find it.
Mary
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Oops sorry Mary ??? forgot to write down that it was his deathdate.
Susan ;D
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Hi Cat
The Charles Johnson you found in 1871 born Sweden, Nat. Brit. Subject, here he is in 1861 serving in the Royal Navy
HMS Edgar English Channel
Charles Johnson S Ab 22 b: Sweden, British Subject
RG9/4439 folio 18 page 11
Susan ;D
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Alice and family in London in 1861 ARE our family and were enumerated there for the census, subsequently returning before the end of May to have Jessie christened in St Peters. At two and a half years old I bet the little brat ran all over the place and squawked when the vicar chucked water over her head too.
...
HOWEVER, how would it have been if Alice and Charles Johnson just came home to visit family and got Jessie christened while they were home, after all St Peters is a prestigious church and maybe they saved it up.
I'm sure I read on another Rootschat thread (what do you mean, there are others? :)) just yesterday that it was not uncommon for people to return to family homes to have their children christened.
Sounds like you've got it sorted, Mary!
Paul
PS
Please excuse my absence from this thread. At a family barbecue at my in-laws today, a less than bright nephew managed to lock his mother's car keys in the boot of her car. It was, of course, the one AT THE END of the drive, thus blocking the departure of three car loads for the 90 minutes it took the AA to arrive. To cap it all, when we finally got a lift home we found that the nephew's less than bright uncle had managed to leave HIS car keys at the in-laws.
C'est la vie! :)
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How come you waited for the only rainy day this week to have a barbecue? That's in-laws for you ;D ;D I did sorta wonder who the less than bright nephew's uncle was!
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Are the Orr Ewing's anything to do with this family we are tracking? If so found a "live" one mentioned in a Sunday paper, running a pub ;D
Susan
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I've just received another mail from our Molison/Cornell researcher. This time it's a William Maule Molison descendancy.
I'll be careful only to post cool info that doesn't kill our playing.
How's this for starters?
On James Molison migrating to Sydney, he went home in a hurry after demolishing most of what is now the CBD of Sydney in an explosion- huge, it levelled a radius of 4 blocks.
I so want to know more about this! Some accident!
...everything from the big roundabout in Craigshaw out to Girdle Ness and round to the Torry Battery on one side and round and including Nigg Bay on the south side was the Davidson/Molison estate. over 1000 acres. I gave the last bits of it all away.
WILLIAM MAULE MOLISON, LIEUT:
August 23, 1803 he entered the Forfar and Kincardine Volunteers.
1808- volunteered for the 71st Regiment. Wounded at Walcheren in 1809.
1828 living at Kirkton, Fraserburgh. Died of heart disease, and buried at Nigg.
Died probably in poor financial circumstances. The Aberdeen Journal of 29 August 1832 carried a notice to creditors of his estate.
The Aberdeen Journal in 1914 carried a question about him under the heading "who was he?' (see para 1083 of the Journal. There was no answer from anyone.
MARGARET MARIA DAVIDSON:
Margaret was the only member of the Davidson family to marry and have children. As she married a Molison, she could have ended up with the whole estate, but didn't because she was by-passed and the estate was left to her son James, and Colonel James Davidson the nephew, and son of her daughter Margaret Maria Molison.
Margaret married a Davidson, but he was not related to the earlier Davidsons who had put the whole estate together.
Nevertheless, this did not stop Colonel James applying to the
Lord Lyon to add the title 4th of Balnagask to his name.
ROBERT DAVIDSON MOLISON
1829 THE RECORDS OF MARISCHAL COLLEGE, UNIVERSITY OF ABERDEEN HAVE AN ENTRY 'ART CLASSES, ALUMNI AND GRADUATES, ROBERT D. MOLLISON(SIC) FATHER GULIELMI(WILLIAM) AGRICO IN PAR DE FRASERBURGH 1ST 2ND 3RD'
SALTOUN MOLISON, b. 23 Oct 1820, KIRKTOWN, FRASERBURGH, SCOTLAND; d. 21 Mar 1821.
MARGARET MARIA MOLISON, b. 19 Jan 1822, KIRKTOWN, FRASERBURGH, SCOTLAND; d. 26 Jun 1889, VENTNOR, ISLE OF WIGHT.
Isle of Wight connection is interesting.
There is some lovely info about William James Molison son of Alexander Strachan Molison (whom our contact is directly descended from).
I don't want to lift it as it is written by another researcher but some snippets include...
...There is some evidence that WJM visited Australia and New Zealand as a young man and he was certainly resident in California as a gold-miner. He was reputed by hearsay to be an associate of Wm. Cody but I have no recollection of him speaking to me of this. I now have in my little family archive his RFU cap awarded for an international match, GB vs California!
A fascinating family all together!
Pam
;D
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Keziahemm,
Michael says...
I have noticed one of your members- Kezia- is studying Mytton. She should read 'The last of the Myttons- Halston House.' in Abbeys Castles and Ancient Halls of England & Wales, by Timbs and Gunn.
A great story indeed.
Have you seen this book?
Pam
;D
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I live about 15 minutes away from Buffalo Bill's grave and Museum - could be a project for the boys and I to see if they have anything regarding WJM
Annie
http://www.buffalobill.org/
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Hi Pam,
No I haven't seen the book about the Mytton's I shall have to seek it out and have a read. Looks as if it could be very interesting. Thanks Michael ;D
Susan :)
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Some pages back we had from 1881:
It is in Lewisham Kent and comprises:
- Osbert W MOLISON, Head, 25, b Sydney Australia, Commercial Clerk
- Isabella E. MOLISON, Sister, U, 30, b Kennington, Surrey, England
- Annie F. MOLISON, Sister, U, 27, b Balmain, Australia
(Balmain is a suburb of Sydney)
- Mildred F. MOLISON, Sister, U, 18, b Woolhara(sic), Australia
(Woollahra is a suburb of Sydney)
- Jeanie W. MOLISON, Sister, U, 14, b Upper Holloway, Middlesex, England
- Florence WATSON, Visitor, U, 25, b Hammersmith, Middlesex, England
- and 2 servants.
Noticing that birth in Holloway, Middlesex, I suspect that the following lad is a member of the same family:
At school in Lancing as a Boarder:
- Robert J MOLISON, 12, b Holloway, Middlesex
We've also got James Molison father of the above dying in Nigg, Kincardine just south Aberdeen in 1869. where are the children in 1871? I've checked England and Scotland to no avail.
Some pages back we also had the 1871 census details showing Margaret Molison nee Davidson, James' mother, with married daughter Catherine Adamson and family. Just out of interest, Catherine's son Henry McKenzie Adamson, medical student, by 1881 had moved in Balnagask House.
Great info from Pam. I intend to head into Aberdeen library tomorrow to see if I can find out anymore snippets.
Jo
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The only one we know about at present is James, who married Isabella Anne Forsyth in Elgin, Moray on 18 Jul 1849. Isabella was chr. 12 Mar 1826), dau of Osbert Forsyth and Isabella Reid.
James was a ships captain, working for the Duncan Dunbar fleet. His wife was related to the Dunbar family. James and Isabella had at least 9 children: from the wonderful summaries.
Osbert Forsyth was the son of Alexander Forsyth and Margaret Dunbar chr 15 June 1779 Huntley Aberdeenshire. Guessing that Margaret will connect to Duncan Dunbar.
Jo
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Could be the connection to the Duncan Dunbar fleet:
John dunbar and Margaret Hoyes had:
Margaret Dunbar chr 30 Jan 1752 Forres
duncan dunbar 17 May 1764 Forres
There are 13 other children!
Jo
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From http://www.dunbarfamilysociety.org.uk/DATA/data.html
Duncan Dunbar (1764-1825) set up business in London, and later was joined by his son Duncan (1804 - 1862). Their business became very successful and they were owners of at least 75 ships - but no steamships - and son Duncan died a millionaire
Looks like we've got the right connection to the Dunbar fleet. Osbert Forsyth (father in law to James Molison who was half brother to our Alexander Strachan Molison) was the cousin to the second Duncan Dunbar who built up the fleet. somewhere i've read that Duncan Dunbar died without issue and something to do with the terms of the will that to inherit anything family had to keep Dunbar in the name.
Jo
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Duncan did have offspring. I have a full descendancy for him from Michael. Much of the info has come from the massive will he left. I won't post the details as that would be an interesting family to follow but if anyone wants any info let me know.
At the end of this challenge it would be great to bring it all together on a webpage - I can add the detail then?
P ;D
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Pam, if I'm going into Aberdeen library tomorrow is there anything left to find out re the Molisons and Davidsons or are most avenues covered by Michael's research?
Jo
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Wow - another great days/nights work from all sides of the world! Pam and JoT, especially!
Keziahemm - were there any contact details for the Orr Ewing ink? Might be worth an e-mail to the newspaper.
Paul
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Good morning people,
I notice the boarding school for Robert J Molison b1869 Holloway, is Lancing.
I take it this Lancing college, Sussex.
Worthing is about 5 mls away (Broadwater and all).
I'm often at Lancing and can take a look for any
other member of the family that boarded
at the "college" as well.
Do we have any other names?
Lesanne. :D
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Found this snippet from Austraiana Vol 9 No 2,
The Bridge Street Explosion of 1866. A.Wayne Johnson.
Glass plate negative in Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences, Sydney, of aftermath of 4 March 1866 explosion destroying the premises of Molison and Black, 17-19 Bridge Street, Sydney, used to store goods. Board of Inquiry found the cause was the Spontaneous explosion of 100lb nitroglycerin sample, imported from Hamburg, 19 February 1866.
Some sample !! Lesanne. :)
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Great work here everybody - spent yesterday transporting older daughter to regional final of her gym competition, including car trouble on the way back, so haven't had time to catch up yet.
Some of the Orr Ewings are descendants of Allan's aunt Helen Robertson, who married James Ewing. The Orr-Ewings (with hyphen) seem to be the descendants of James' brother Sir Archibald.
Love the exploding nitroglycerin sample!
Rambler
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Good morning people,
I notice the boarding school for Robert J Molison b1869 Holloway, is Lancing. I take it this Lancing college, Sussex. Worthing is about 5 mls away (Broadwater and all). I'm often at Lancing and can take a look for any other member of the family that boarded at the "college" as well.
Do we have any other names?
Lesanne. :D
Lesanne, the 1881 transcription on FamilySearch is pretty dreadful ('Colligate School'!) but there's obviously a brother of Robert's - transcribed as Salton MOLIS...! His forename is clearly Saltoun on the image though the end of his surname is a bit messy.
So we now have two of the sons of James MOLISON ('half-brother' of "our" Alexander Strachan MOLISON) boarding at Lancing - one b Sydney and one (after they'd escaped the fallout of the great explosion!!) b Holloway:
Lancing Sussex
Collegiate School
Boarders include "our":
Saltoun MOLISON, Boarder, 16, Scholar, b Sydney NSW
We hadn't picked him up before due to the rotten transcription
And his brother
Robert MOLISON, Boarder, 12, Scholar, b Holloway
We've had him previously - see my post on page 48 for this and for the birth of Saltoun and others in Sydney
JAP
PS: I had a friend here in Australia who, as a boy, used regularly to travel alone to and from Athens to Lancing in the 1930s to board at the College. Boat to Marseilles, train to Calais, cross the channel, train to Sussex ...
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The "Australian" Molisons (James and Isabella's children) only seem to show up on the 1881 census. Did they go back to Australia afterwards? We're missing one of the children, Allan D (b.1860) in 1881 - where is he? (He may have died young, of course.)
Both William Maule Molison and his son James named a child Saltoun, which is normally a surname. Any chance this was WMM's mother's maiden name?
Rambler
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Here another Orr Ewing family on the 1891 census (dont think we've had these before) -
Kelemore House, Shellingford, Berkshire
John Orr Ewing 32 Living on own means (retired army) Scotland
Ellen C Orr Ewing 32 Middlesex London
Archibald J 6 Middlesex London
Edith G 4 Ireland
Olive 3 Ireland
Hilda M Barrington Visitor 16 Bucks Westbury
Florence M Duffield 26 Berks Marcham
Lilly Kenard 7 Middlesex London
Geraldine Dawn 29 Norfolk Broughton Castle (the only Broughton Castle I can find is in Banbury, Oxon)
Charles J Duffield 28 Berkshire Marcham
+ 10 servants !!! wealthy family!!
RG12/976 Folio 7 Page 8
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Hi Cat
Re the Orr Ewings in 1891, wonder if it might be "Kylemore House", as if so it could be named after the Kylemore House in Connemara, Ireland (I notice some of the children were born Ireland)?
cheers
Paul
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<snip>
Both William Maule Molison and his son James named a child Saltoun, which is normally a surname. Any chance this was WMM's mother's maiden name?
Rambler
Hi Rambler, I thought the naming of the earlier Saltoun MOLISON (b 1820 in Fraserburgh) might well have been linked to (i.e. was perhaps in recognition of) the Fraserburgh aristocracy - and that then it was used again because they liked it ...
See first post on page 49. A Fraser lot in the Fraserburgh region (probably coming from the Lowlands - East Lothian - previously) became the Lords of Saltoun (the current Lady Saltoun is Head of Clan Fraser).
But there may well be some closer and meaningful connexion!
JAP
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The Orr Ewings are obviously very well connected as, on the 1901 census, theres a one year old Millicent L E Orr Ewing visiting Lilian Warren, Duchess of Marlborough (age 40, widow), at Deepdene, Dorking, Surrey, along with the Duchesses son, William de la p. Beresford......along with 30 house serevants to look after them!!! and 30ish garden/bothy and stables servants!!!! RG13/622 Folio 12 Page 16
ps. Paul, i wondered that too, googled it and thats the closest it came up with
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Been checking ancestry out for Orr Ewings on the censuses and the only other two I can find are on the 1881 census -
RG11/4727 Folio 72 Page 1
Corraby Barracks, Gate Fulford, Yorks
"Cavalry Barracks" Fulford Road
Leiutenant J/S A Orr Ewing 24 16th Lancers POB. Scotland
Aldershot, Hamps RG11/0786 Folio 68 Page 1
John Orr Ewing 22 4th 2nd Leiutenant Royal Irish Dragoon Guards POB. Scotland
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The Dunbar connections:
Duncan Dunbar Molison (son of Alexander Strachan Molison, nephew to James Molison whose father in law was cousin to Duncan Dunbar shipping millionaire, see my posting last night) married Justina Louisa Shores daughter of John wallis Shores and Justina Tatham.
Found on IGI:
Justina Tatham chr 8 July 1862 Walthamstow parents Duncan Dunbar and Mary Ann Tatham
From NOTES ON THE ISSUERS OF THE CEYLON TOKENS
The partners parted company in 1860 and Thomas Dickson started the firm under the name Thomas Dickson & Co. with Christopher Tatham as partner. The name was again changed in 1863 to Dickson, Tatham & Co.
Tatham was a nephew of Duncan Dunbar, the millionaire owner of the Dunbar Line of first class sailing ships.
Thomas Dickson retired in the early 1860s and Tatham took over the entire business.
can't find the direct link between Justina Tatham, who married John Wallis Shores and Duncan Dunbar but must be close.
How many Duncan Dunbar XXXs are there???!
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Another DuncanDunbar XXX:
1861 Broadwater sTreet Broadwater Sussex
John Wallis Shores head widr 36 proprietor of houses b. Poplar
Charles Latham Shores son 7 b Poplar
Duncan Dunbar Shores son 5 b Worthing
Sarah Ann Shores sister unmar 24 fundholder b Poplar
Sarah ann married Alexander Strachan Molison
Jo
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I found this via Google, on a website about a Morrison family (
http://users.bigpond.net.au/morrisons.engadine.australia/canadian%20morrisons.html):
In attempting to establish the origins of Janet [Jenny] Morrison it is necessary to take into account the apparent distortions she made on occasion relating to information that she provided.
Jenny's death certificate in 1939 gives her age as being 81 years. This indicates her birth year as being about 1859. This is consistent with her being born as the result of a relationship her mother, Janet Fleming Robertson had with William Morrison that was recorded at Kinnoul, Perthshire, Scotland.
Why Jenny changed the facts of her previous life is not understood. In 1907 she 'married' a William Mackay at Glasgow where she claimed to be a 37 year old spinster which establishes her birth year as1870. There has been no record found of this wedding. It is believed that she did not mention her previous marriage to Robert Morrison, although she nominated William Morrison of Hawick as her father and Janet Fleming Robertson, now deceased, as her mother. The legend goes that Mackay was of the aristocrat class and did nor believe in 'working'. He is supposed to have spent all of Jenny's money and left her penniless. There is no knowledge as to whether he died or just disappeared.
Jenny cut her losses and migrated on March 15, 1915 to the USA. She arrived at Ellis Island New York on board the SS Arabic from Liverpool, England as Jenny Fleming Mackay. The Manifest shows her last residential address as being at Manchester, England. She gave her age as being 49 year old widow born in Edinburgh Scotland. Her given reason for migration was to join her "brother", J. Morrison in Phillidelphia. Her next of kin was listed as Allan Robertson, a cousin living at Dundee. Her description stated she was 5ft. 2 inches tall, light hair and brown eyes. Her claimed age gives her a birth year of about 1866. This would indicate that she was about 17 when her son James was born in 1884. She had no brother in the USA but her son James was living at Philadelphia.
In 1917 Jenny moved to Canada at the same time as her son James and she ran a "Rooming House" in Toronto. Amongst the few items left after she died is a book of poetry that was published in 1889 by the Hawick Advertiser that featured a poem by Mrs. William Morrison and a newspaper clipping regarding the death in France of J McE Morrison in WW1. This related to a son of her half-brother William, who had migrated to Australia in 1883.
Given links between Manchester, USA and Canada, is there anything to suggest this might be a relative of 'our' Allan?
cheers
Paul
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Guess that Charles Latham Shores should be Charles Tatham Shores after his mother Justina who married John Wallis Shores junior in 1848, must check the image.
Jo
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I'm just bringing the Harrisons up to date, if I can. These are the daughters of William Harrison and Ann Elizabeth Muir.
1901 RG13/3970 Fylde Blackpool Folio 55 Page 8
94 Egerton Road, Blackpool
Emma A Harrison Head S 44 Boarding House Keeper Working on own account at home Lancashire St Helens
Annie J " Sister 42 " " " " "
Thomas W " Nephew 8 Lancashire Grange over Sands.
Birth of Clifford harrison (see previous post of William the son and Mary Ellen with son Clifford)
June qtr 1900 Fylde Lancashire 8e 679
A couple of Thomas's to choose from b 1895, neither of them are Thomas W.
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Hi Rambler, I thought the naming of the earlier Saltoun MOLISON (b 1820 in Fraserburgh) might well have been linked to (i.e. was perhaps in recognition of) the Fraserburgh aristocracy - and that then it was used again because they liked it ...
See first post on page 49. A Fraser lot in the Fraserburgh region (probably coming from the Lowlands - East Lothian - previously) became the Lords of Saltoun (the current Lady Saltoun is Head of Clan Fraser).
But there may well be some closer and meaningful connexion!
JAP
I quite agree that the name may have no "biological" connection to the family, but we don't have many clues for taking the Molisons back any further - except of course William's middle name Maule - so it's probably worth keeping an eye out for.
If we look at WMM's children in the light of Scottish naming patterns, we have:
Alexander Strachan - should be named after paternal grandfather, but was illegitimate, so may not fit the pattern. It's been suggested that Strachan was his birth name, and that Molison was added later.
Robert Davidson - named after maternal grandfather.
James - doesn't fit the pattern! (Should be named after father.)
Christian - named after maternal grandmother
Saltoun - ???
Margaret Maria - named after mother.
Catharine - ???
This leaves the possibility that either Saltoun or Catharine (or both!) may have been named after their paternal grandmother. Unfortunately, the family doesn't follow the pattern 100%, so it's just a possibility - no more.
Rambler
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Lanarkshire: Glasgow - Burgesses and Guild Brethren, 1751-1846 and 1825-1840
This is the rol of the parish of Portpatrick above tuelve yeirs of age according to my knowleg and subt. be me Master John Calduell, minister throf this day of Oct 1684. M. J. Calduell.
This is the rol of the parish of Portpatrick above tuelve yeirs of age according to my knowleg and subt. be me Master John Calduell, minister throf this day of Oct 1684. M. J. Calduell.
1839.
County: Lanarkshire
Country: Scotland
Ewing, John Orr, merchant, 17 George Square, B. and G.B., as younger l. son to William E., merchant, B. and G.B. 14 Jan 1839
Found this, but what does it mean??
Also found -
Archibald Ernest Orr Ewing Marriage Dec 1879 Vol 1a Page 689 St George Hanover Square (only 1 bride listed for 2 men though - Marie Rungas) Did we already have this one?
Birth - Edward L Orr Ewing June 1899 St George Hanover Square Vol 1a Page 425 (wonder if its the older brother of the Millicent I found earlier staying with the Duchess)
Also, nearer present day, possible "live" Orr Ewing - marriage of Patricia P Orr Ewing to a Cedric Talbot-Weiss Dec 1985 Ken&Chelsea Vol13 Page967
(There are also 3 births in the 1990s and one in 2001 for Orr Ewings, so they are still alive and well, down in the Surrey/Wiltshire/Hamps area - a few Orr Ewings are coming up on 192.com, including and Archie D Orr Ewing, in Surrey and London, but cant get full details cos not subscribed, just in case u r still looking to come into the present day with the families?)
ps. Interesting story, Paul, about Janet Morrison - when Alan Robertson was chosen as the subject, who'd have thought it would end up with Scottish/English aristocracy, Shipping magnates and worldwide connections!! :)
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All you ever wanted to know about Turkey Red:
United Turkey Red Co Ltd was by far the largest firm in the bleaching, finishing, dyeing and printing industry in Scotland. It was formed during the 1890s, growing naturally out of a number of occasional associations between dyeing firms in the West of Scotland, set up to deal with difficulties encountered by the industry as a whole. In the 1880s, for example, a German technical monopoly in the production of artificial alizarine, the chemical extracted originally from the madder root, which produced the Turkey-red colour, led to steep price increases for English and Scottish dyers, with consequent loss of business and unemployment. In the 1890s, the dyers set up a protective association, the Dyers in Glasgow and the West of Scotland, to contest what were seen as discriminative tariffs imposed on British dyed yarns imported into India. An important figure in the establishment of the new company was John Hyde Christie (1836-1926), who began work for John Orr Ewing & Co as chief chemist in 1859, becoming general manager and, in 1878, a partner in the firm. The companies involved in the merger were John Orr Ewing & Co (established 1830), Archibald Orr Ewing & Co (established 1830), Wm Stirling & Sons (established 1723) and, in 1900, Alexander Reid & Sons was purchased.
from http://www.archiveshub.ac.uk/news/0405utr.html
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The "Australian" Molisons (James and Isabella's children) only seem to show up on the 1881 census. Did they go back to Australia afterwards? We're missing one of the children, Allan D (b.1860) in 1881 - where is he? (He may have died young, of course.)
<snip>
Rambler
Hi Rambler,
Might the "Australian" MOLISONs have been in Scotland in the other relevant censuses (1871 - we need them there too - and 1891 and 1901)? And might other records (marriages and deaths) also be in Scotland?
The Scottish censuses and BDMs are jealously guarded by GROS; and it seems a little bit like cheating to pay to look at them (I might be tempted if I had time remaining on SP - but I can resist that temptation because, although I have credits remaining, I don't have any time.)
We have James marrying Isabella in Scotland in 1849.
Then in England we have Isabella b Surrey ca 1850 and Margaret b Surrey ca 1851 (we don't know what happened to Margaret).
Then it's off to NSW Australia where Annie Forsyth (presumably died young as another child was given the same name), Osbert W, Allan D (we don't know what happened to Allan D), Annie F, Mildred F and Saltoun are born.
1861 census: they are all presumably in Australia so won't appear.
Then back to England where Jeannie W (ca 1867) and Robert (ca 1869) are born in England in Holloway.
1869 the father James died in Scotland.
1871 Census: we don't have any of them in England. Perhaps the widowed Isabella and her children are all in Scotland? Or have they gone back to Australia for some reason?
1879 The mother Isabella dies in England - on the Isle of Wight.
1881 Census: the following orphaned children (some adult, some not) are in England - Isabella jnr, Osbert W, Annie F, Mildred F, Saltoun (boarding at school), Jeannie W, and Robert (boarding at school)
1882 Osbert W dies in England
1891 Census: we don't have any of them. Some girls might perhaps have married (in either England or Scotland) and be hiding under other names. But what about Saltoun and Robert - are they in the 1891 Scotland census, or have they died (England or Scotland or wherever), or have they left the country?
1901 We don't have any of them (comments as for 1891).
It makes it hard when there's no easy/free access to the Scottish records!
JAP
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Well, it's supposed to be a challenge....! ;D
Yes - Scotland's a real possibility, as is Australia. I haven't managed to find a likely-looking marriage for any of the girls, or anything helpful on Free BMD, IGI or Google. It's odd how they appear and disappear en bloc.
Will keep digging!
Rambler
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Duplicated post as RootsChat went down on me - full version below!
Rambler
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Hi all,
Just a quickie about the "Canada Jenny's" Allan, he's got 2 "LL's".
Tatham, my gran used to play at a whist drive with a lady Tatham, the Tatham corner at Aintree racecourse was named after her family.
Lesanne. ;D
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Very quick note - I'm in work and I sit outside the director's office now so can't be long :'(
On the 1861 census I saw a Christian Mollison (think it was "ll") can anyone check the entry to see if the age fits for our William Maule's mother? I'm sure it was an old girl.
P ;D
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Orr-Ewings - the well-connected lot!
Archibald Ewing (bro of James who married Allan's aunt Helen Robertson) married Elizabeth Lindsay Reid on 27 Apr 1847. (Extracted records at Row and Bonhill, Dunbarton.) He was married under the name Archibald Orr Ewing, and at some point became Sir Archibald Orr-Ewing, 1st baronet.
Archibald and Elizabeth's children:
William Ewing - 14 Feb 1848, Bonhill, Dunbarton
Archibald Ernest Ewing - 22 Feb 1853, Barony, Lanark
Jannette Edith Ewing - Aug 1854, Barony, Lanark
John Orr Ewing - 29 Mar 1859, Anderston, Glasgow, Lanark
Charles Lindsay Ewing - 08 Sep 1860, Bonhill, Dunbarton
Elizabeth Constance Lindsay Orr Ewing - 2 Aug 1862, Dunoon and Kilmun, Argyll
CatOne has found Archibald Jr's marriage and a 1891 census entry for John Orr Ewing and family.
Note that all but 2 are plain "Ewing" at birth.
Rambler
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Re: the Orr Ewing girl who was visiting the Duchess of Marlborough in 1901 - I think this is the connection -
On 25/07/1898 James Alexander Orr Ewing married Lady Margaret Frances Susan Innes Ker, daughter of Anne Elizabeth Spencer Churchill (daughter of the 7th Duke of Marlborough) and James Henry Robert Innes Ker (7th Duke of Roxburgh)
James A Orr Ewing was KIA'd 28/05/1900
(The Spencer Churchill/Dukes of Marlborough line includes Diana, Princess of Wales and Sir Winston Churchill)
See -
web.ukonline.co.uk/bean95/ft/frippuk/pafg38.htm#1095
and
pages.prodigy.net/ptheoff/gotha/marlborough.html
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ps. Christian Mollisons age on 1861 is 76 (b.1785)
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This thread is starting to read like "Six Degrees of Separation" :)
I can't believe the number of lines that you guys have been tracing. I did intend to shove all this information onto a tree on Genes Reunited but I think I would need six months to do it!
Paul
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Definitely a well-connected lot!
Here's Charles Lindsay Ewing and family on the 1901 census:
38 Bryanston Sq, St Marylebone
C L Orr Ewing Head 40 Living on own means b. Scotland
Augusta Orr Ewing Wife 24 b. Scotland
Janet Orr Ewing Dau 10 b. Scotland
James Orr Ewing Son 7 b. Scotland
Edward Orr Ewing Son 2 b. London
David Orr Ewing Son 1 b. London
(Plus a governess and 15 other servants!)
RG13/110 - Folio 85 - pg 18
Presumably a second marriage.
Rambler
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ps. Christian Mollisons age on 1861 is 76 (b.1785)
Hmmm. Interesting age - was she with anyone else in the house? Sorry to ask but I can't get access at work.
P
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I have looked in Scotland 1871 for Isabella Anne Molison wife of James Molison and their children to no avail and yet James (and more see below)were buried at Nigg 1869....
Spent good chunk of my day in Aberdeen library (scottish local holiday in Banchory where I teach but not in Aberdeen where I live so boys still at school - day to myself!)
Had a good look through anything that may have given some clues in the local studies section, found a few snippets and then asked - instant response from very knowledgable librarian. Here goes:
From St Fitticks churchyard inscriptions: (another source had a photo of the Davidson burial ground with the north sea stretching out beyond, a somewhat wild and windy place)
Robert Davidson of Balnagask d. 16 Dec 1829 age 90
Christian Philip his wife d Oct 1807
Children of the above:
Isobel b. 1791 d. 22 july 1804
John b 1793 d 15 July 1805
James b 1787 d in India 1812
William b 1797 d 14 March 1821
Robert of Balnagask b 1783 d 27 Jan 1827
Alexander of Balnagask b 1786 d 26 Dec 1868
Andrew b 1810 d 4 June 1860
Katherine b 1784 d 25 June 1875
Christian b 1795 d 8 Aug 1885
Also:
William Maule Molison Lieut 71st Highland ight Infantry d July 1832
His children:
Saltoun d in infancy
Christian d 1832 age 13
Robert d 1841 age 29
James d 1869 age 52 and his wife Isabella Anne Forsyth d 21 May 1879 age 53.
Their daughter, Margaret d 9 Aug 1875 age 24
Also:
Margaret Davidson wife of above William Maule Molison d 17 Aug 1877 age 88
Katherine Davidson d 12 July 1873 age 18
her sister Margaret wife of John Blaikie manson d 6 Oct 1882 age 30
daughters of William A Davidson and their mother
Margaret Maria Molison d 26 June 1889 age 67 wife of William A Davidson and daughter of William Maule Molison
That confirms everything we've found so far I think with the addition of a few more Robert Davidson and Christian Philip children. We cab also see how the inheritence came down through Margaret Davidson who married William Maule Molison; her other brothers had all died by the time Alexander Davidson died in 1868. Guess alexander had inherited on Robert Davidson senior's death in 1829, heir presumptive Robert junior had died in 1827.
More to follow, I'll try to type quickly without mistakes - not easy.
Jo
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Pam,
1861 Christian Mollison is a lodger in the house of a carpenter and his wife, Kensington St Mary Abbott
Regards,
Catherine
(just noticed condition is down as unmarried too?!)
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From Aberdeen Obituries 1823 -1839 Mcdonnell:
Robert Davidson died 27 Jan 1827 at Aberdeen aged 44 of Balnagask, drowned attempting to cross the ferry.
There was a ferry disaster later in the 1800s which prompted the building of a bridge over the Dee.
From Epitaphs and inscriptions vol2 Jervise:
Nigg churchyard
granite monument in East wall of churchyard
Robert Davidson of Balnagask d 1826 age 90
Christian Philip d 1807
Alexander Davidson b 1786 d 1868 flour miller in London, left a good estate included a legacy to village of Torry of £1200 for educational purposes.
Before buying Balnagask Robert had farmed the property. Alexander had bought Kirkhillocks and Craigieshaw. He left Balnagask and Kirkhillocks to Mr Davidson son of his sisters daughter and Craigieshaw to Mr Molison his own nephew.
Mr Davidson's mother was Margaret maria Molison who'd married William A Davidson and she in turn the daughter of Margaret Davidson who'd married William Maule Molison daughter of Robert Davidson sister to alexander.
Mr Molison, I think is James Molison who we have ref to residing at Craigshaw when he died in 1869. our Alexander Strachan Molison must have missed out as his mother was a previous wife or mistress of William Maule Molison.
Mr Davidson above I think must be Colonel James Davidson:
newspaper cutting 6 May 1932
Obituary
Colonel James Davidson CBE of Balnagask Vice Lieuteant of Kincardine born 1853, became Colonel in 1896, married Margaret Berry daughter of Colonel Berry Hyde Park Gate London. One child Alister James Davidson.
From Leopard mag May 1985:
Colonel was known as Laird of Torry at one time because he owned most of it. Sold land for the new dock at Torry, land for Balnagask golf course and land to Aberdeen corporation. Buried in St Fitticks churchyard. After the burial the writer had to dig the surrounding area of vault to tidy up and sow grass seed. Came across a 6 ft tall skeleton about 18 inches deep, never told anyone. Writer reckoned some of Balnagask house was 250 years old.
bit more to come.
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Looking in 1891 for the missing Molisons, I came across this one I don't think has been posted, I think it's the sister of Osbert, hasn't the Isle of Wight been mentioned somewhere too. However, forgive me if it has already been posted.
1891 RG12/895 Isle of Wight, Godshill Folio 23 Page 10
Holly Mount, Boniface Road, Ventnor, Isle of Wight
Mary Francis Head S 52 Living on own means Mauritius B Subject
Caroline Price Sister M 50 " " " "
Mildred F Steele Visitor Wid 28 " " Sydney N.S. Wales
Marion D " Visitor 4 Durban S Africa
Jeanie W Molison Visitor S 24 " " London Holloway
Frances A Cross Serv S 27 Cook (Domestic) Hants Portsmouth
Sarah E Wilkinson Serv S 21 Parlour Maid (Domestic) Muswell Hill, Middlesex
Mary
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ref. my previous post about a "live" Orr Ewing mentioned in Sunday paper
Archie Orr Ewing, landlord of Kings' Head, Bledington, Oxon.
Article was about Prince William staying at the pub after a society wedding.
Do we have anyone in the area that fancies a trip to the pub ;D
Susan
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From Leopard mag June/July 1985:
Memories of Frank Cook, inhabitant of Balnagask House Home for the Elderly formed 1950, one of 8 men and 19 ladies.
"The beauty of the House has been preserved, and the patterns of brasswork on the doors of the residents' lounge have a polish worthy of the most particular days of the Colonel's drawing room. There's a warmth about the house that must gladden the ghosts of the Davidsons ..."
Frank had known the Colonel and his wife but had never dreamt he would one day live in "the big hoose".
From Leopard mag June 1990:
A mystery unearthed at Balnagask House as it was reduced to a hole by demolition squad. They found an ancient block of sandstone in gable wall. maybe linked to Cormac de Nag's 13thc motte stronghold or Abbots of Arbroath who built a villa and doocote in vicinity.
So sorry no photos of the house to show everyone. There was one in the magazine but no brilliant quality to photocopy and scan into computer; big house though.
So we've definitely got independant evidence for William Maule Molison being our Alexander Strachan Molison's father as we had ref in ASM voyages of his brother James in Sydney. We've also got a link to 71st Highland Light Infantry for Lieut. William Maule Molison.
Just a bit to add on the Duncan Dunbars next.
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Aberdeen library gave me details of Moray library who have a wonderful people finding facility - http://libindx.moray.gov.uk
Duncan Dunbar the elder, uncle to Osbert Forsyth father in law to James Molison
Occupation : MERCHANT
Date of Birth : 14 MAY 1764
Spouses Name : PHOEBE BAILEY
Date of Death : c. 1825
Place of Death : LONDON
Father's Name: JOHN DUNBAR of FORRES
Mother's Name: MARGARET HOYES
Biography: BROTHER OF ROBERT & ELSPETH & JOHN & MARGARET & ALEXANDER & JANET & WILLIAM & JAMES & GEORGE & ANDREW & HELEN & JUSTINA
Marriage Narrative: PARENTS OF MARIA ANNE & JUSTINA & DUNCAN & JOHN & JANET & MARGARET & HELEN & PHOEBE
Duncan Dunbar junior, cousin to Osbert Forsyth
Occupation : BUSINESSMAN & SHIP OWNER
Date of Birth : 1804
Place of Birth : 7 TORE STREET LIMEHOUSE LONDON
Date of Death : 06 MAR 1862
Place of Death : PORCHESTER TERRACE LONDON
Father's Name: DUNCAN DUNBAR of BALNAGEITH FORRES
Mother's Name: PHOEBE BAILEY
Biography: BROTHER OF JOHN DUNBAR EDUCATED AT FORRES GRAMMAR SCHOOL
All the Duncan Dunbar XXX we come across most likely descend from the sisters in either generation. I'm sure with Duncan Dunbar becoming a millionaire they would have all wanted to maintain the family connection ;)
Time to get back to the Molisons or even the Robertsons.
Jo
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Did we have Sir Archibald Orr Ewing remarrying?? I've come across a webpage that says he married a Mabel Addington in Oct, 1879
http://www.pellew.com/Family%20Tree/Family%20Tree.htm
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Have we got Christian Mollisons death -
Kensington March 1864 Vol 1a Page 90
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Have we got Christian Mollisons death -
Kensington March 1864 Vol 1a Page 90
So she's a different one to the one JoT has grave info for. Very interesting.
Tremendous lot of info building up - well done JoT for giving your day off.
I hope you had some finds for yourself too.
Pam
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Just one last indulgence on the Duncan Dunbar- promise:
1861
50 Porchester Terrace Paddington
Duncan Dunbar head unmar 57 Shipowner b Limehouse
Margaret D Mapson sister widow 56 fundowner b Limehouse
Enesie D Mapson niece 30
Phoebe A Mapson niece 27
plus umpteen servants
An unmarried millionaire, bet the ladies were queueing up ;)
Jo
Pam, got stuck on all my family especially up here in Aberden when they're all down South england, London and Wales - its just been intrigueing to find things out.
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I think this is Georgina Susannah's Robertsons death (John Robertson and Betsey Morrisons daughter) -
Lambeth March 1900 Aged 72 Vol. 1d Page 371
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http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/Westburyhouse/71stparttwo.htm
An extremely detailed account of the 71st Highland Light Infantry but alas no mention of a Molison William Maule or otherwise.
Jo
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Marvellous info, Jo - you've done us proud in Aberdeen! Will try and catch up tomorrow, but I'm too tired to think straight now.
Night all!
Rambler
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Looking in 1891 for the missing Molisons, I came across this one I don't think has been posted, I think it's the sister of Osbert, hasn't the Isle of Wight been mentioned somewhere too. However, forgive me if it has already been posted.
1891 RG12/895 Isle of Wight, Godshill Folio 23 Page 10
Holly Mount, Boniface Road, Ventnor, Isle of Wight
Mary Francis Head S 52 Living on own means Mauritius B Subject
Caroline Price Sister M 50 " " " "
Mildred F Steele Visitor Wid 28 " " Sydney N.S. Wales
Marion D " Visitor 4 Durban S Africa
Jeanie W Molison Visitor S 24 " " London Holloway
Frances A Cross Serv S 27 Cook (Domestic) Hants Portsmouth
Sarah E Wilkinson Serv S 21 Parlour Maid (Domestic) Muswell Hill, Middlesex
Mary
MaryA,
Great work! Yes, it was Isabella Anne (FORSYTH) MOLISON who d on the Isle of Wight in 1879. She was the widow of 'Australian' James (half-brother of "our" Alexander Strachan MOLISON) who d in Nigg in 1869, and thus mother of Osbert W and his siblings.
So you've now found two of the sisters of Osbert W (he d 1882) - the widowed Mildred F STEELE (surely must be ours with a marriage we didn't know about - and Marion D possibly her daughter) and unmarried Jeannie W MOLISON!
So the 1891 round-up so far of the 'Australian' MOLISONs we had in the 1881 Census is:
Isabella
Osbert W d 1882
Annie F
Mildred F found by MaryA on the Isle of Wight, married a STEELE after the census, and now widowed
Saltoun
Jeannie W found by MaryA on the Isle of Wight, unmarried
Robert
Still to be found in 1891 are:
Isabella (b Surrey ca 1850)
Annie F (b Sydney 1862)
Saltoun F (b Sydney 1865)
Robert (b Holloway ca 1869)
JAP
PS: Children we didn't find in 1881 (and whose deaths we don't have) were Margaret F (b Surrey ca 1851) and Allan D (b Sydney 1860)
Extra Note: In 1881, the FRANCIS sisters were in London - Edward FRANCIS, 74 b Middlesex, Mary 42, Caroline 42, and Edward 26 all b Mauritius, plus 2 servants. Both men were East India Merchants.
Another Extra Note: In 1901, Mildred Forsyth STEELE 39, b Sydney, Independent Means is living in Gnosall Staffordshire with her widowed brother-in-law, Ross STEELE, a 38yo Surgeon b Ayrshire, and his 3yo daughter Elizabeth and servants. No sign of Marion D STEELE?
The IGI shows that b-i-l Ross is Ross Stewart STEELE, born Dalry Ayr in 1862, parents Alexander STEELE and Marion ROBERTSON (that ubiquitous name again!). The marriage of Alexander and Marion is recorded in 1849 in Dalry, Ayr and Paisley, Renfrew - we don't by any chance have a missing Marion ROBERTSON? Ross's siblings listed are William 1855, Marion Robertson 1857, and Matthew Ross 1858 - don't know which one our Mildred married or whether it was an earlier, unrecorded son. Marriage of a Ross Stewart STEELE is on FreeBMD - Newport S Dec qtr 1889; births and deaths of children and first wife, their 10yo son is boarding in 1901, then a second marriage in Jun qtr 1902 (wonder what happened then to our Mildred).
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Pam,
1861 Christian Mollison is a lodger in the house of a carpenter and his wife, Kensington St Mary Abbott
Regards,
Catherine
(just noticed condition is down as unmarried too?!)
Based on her age in 1861, the only possibility on the IGI is Christian Mollison (double ll), dau of Patrick Mollison and Jean Doig, b. 23 May 1784, Campbeltown, Argyll. If it's this lady, then she probably isn't connected to "our" Molisons. But let's keep an eye on her in case she fits in later!
Rambler
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Did we have Sir Archibald Orr Ewing remarrying?? I've come across a webpage that says he married a Mabel Addington in Oct, 1879
http://www.pellew.com/Family%20Tree/Family%20Tree.htm
I think this is the marriage recorded on Free BMD for Dec 1879 that you mentioned earlier - there were 2 husbands and only one wife, so Mabel wasn't actually listed.
Here they are on the 1881 census:
South Cliff, Holdenhurst, Hampshire
Archibald E O Ewing Head 28 (??)Late b. Lanarkshire, Scotland
Mabel Ewing Wife 22 b. Devon
Norman A Ewing 5m (or 5wks?) b. Argyll
(Plus 2 servants.)
RG11/1195 - Folio 61 - pg 60
And in 1891:
Park View House, W Chester Rd, Towcester
A E Orr Ewing Head 38 East India Merchant b. Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Mabel Ewing Wife 37 b. Up Otley, Honiton, Devon
Norman A Ewing Son 10 b. Argyllshire, Scotland
Violet E Ewing Dau 9 b. Dumbartonshire, Scotland
Earnest P Ewing Son 8 b. Ayrshire, Scotland
Mabel U Ewing Dau 3 b. Perthshire, Scotland
Alice M Addington Sis-in-law 41 b. Up Otley, Honiton, Devon
(Not to mention a governess and 9 servants - business was obviously doing well!)
RG12/1188 - Folio 138 - Pg 15
Rambler
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Did we already have this family? I think its Thomas Muir's brother (so James Muir's uncle)
1861 2 West Terrace, Whitby RG9/3648 Folio 112 Page 29
John Robinson Muir 53 (cant make out occupation, "But......" something....) Whitby
Margaret Muir 48 Whitby
George Young Muir 13 Whitby
James William C........ Muir 5 Whitby
Margaret Kidson 12 Glasgow
William Henry Kidson 10 Whitby?
(ps. what page is the summary of census entries already posted so I dont have to rely on my terrible memory :) looked on the summaries page and couldnt find any mention of the above)
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On 25/07/1898 James Alexander Orr Ewing married Lady Margaret Frances Susan Innes Ker, daughter of Anne Elizabeth Spencer Churchill (daughter of the 7th Duke of Marlborough) and James Henry Robert Innes Ker (7th Duke of Roxburgh)
James A Orr Ewing was KIA'd 28/05/1900
I think James Alexander is another son of Sir Archibald and Elizabeth Reid, although he's not listed in the IGI. On the 1871 census, James A O Ewing (b. Scotland c1857) and John O Ewing (b. Scotland c1859) are pupils at a school in Hampshire - this fits with John Orr Ewing, a son of Sir A we already had.
Rambler
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Did we already have this family? I think its Thomas Muir's brother (so James Muir's uncle)
1861 2 West Terrace, Whitby RG9/3648 Folio 112 Page 29
John Robinson Muir 53 (cant make out occupation, "But......" something....) Whitby
Margaret Muir 48 Whitby
George Young Muir 13 Whitby
James William C........ Muir 5 Whitby
Margaret Kidson 12 Glasgow
William Henry Kidson 10 Whitby?
(ps. what page is the summary of census entries already posted so I dont have to rely on my terrible memory :) looked on the summaries page and couldnt find any mention of the above)
More about these Muirs on p.58 of thread - found them AFTER I did the Muir summary and haven't updated yet. (Sorry!)
Will update Robertson/Molison/Muir summaries sometime today.
Rambler
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Did we already have this family? I think its Thomas Muir's brother (so James Muir's uncle)
1861 2 West Terrace, Whitby RG9/3648 Folio 112 Page 29
John Robinson Muir 53 (cant make out occupation, "But......" something....) Whitby
Cat
Just to show that we're awake in the back row here :), I think its Butcher.
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Thanks Paul, the enumerator for that census writes worse than my little boy!! :)
and thanks Rambler, my memory is like a sieve!!! :)
Re: James Alexander Orr Ewing, thought it must be son of Archibald, but missed him at the school u mentioned (wonder if our Allan knew his wifes cousins were marrying so highly!)
Cat :)
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We had John Orr Ewing and family on the 1891 census earlier - here they are in 1901:
29 Brunswick Sq, Hove
John O Ewing Head 42 Capt in His M Army b. Scotland
Ellen O Ewing Wife 41 b. London
Gwendoline Ewing Dau 14 b. Ireland
Olive O Ewing Dau 13 b. Ireland
Jean O Ewing Dau 3 b. Oxford
(Governess and 11 servants)
RG13/935 - Folio 22 - Pg 35
I don't think we've found a marriage for John and Ellen yet?
Rambler
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Oh dear, found a marriage for a John Orr Ewing in 1879 but not to an Ellen -
Possible brides are Emily Rawlins or Caroline Dora Rodgers Bedford March 1879 Vol 3b Page 475
Will keep looking.....
scrap the above..... found this one -
Ellen Clarissa Kennard Sept 1883 Kensington Vol 1a Page 242
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theres also a marriage for a John Orr Ewing in Sept 1887 Brentford Vol 3a Page 181 to either Grace Black, Eliza Crocker or Edith Alice Fountain
How many John Orr Ewings were there??? Or how many times did he marry?!
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I got lost about 50 pages back ???
I do hope someone is going to post the definitive family tree for this lot so we can all catch up ;D
Ros
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Hi Ros
Definitive? This one will run and run! :) It beats the socks off neighbours, Coronation Street and Eastenders all at once!
It seems that MR, Mary, Catone, JoT, JAP, Pam and everyone else are mining an almost inexhaustable supply of Orrs et al. :)
cheers
Paul
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Paul,
and I think you were the (crazy) one that volunteered to put it all on a webpage!!! ;)
Cat :)
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Paul only did it for the fame and fortune, didn't you? I'm sure he's discovered links between his own family and that unmarried millionaire type and he's hoping to inherit the entire bangshoot.
Mary
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There are 2 John Orr Ewings (cousins), with at least 3 marriages between them!
1. Son of James Ewing and Helen Robertson - b. c1855, Liverpool
Married (a) Caroline Dora Rogers, Mar qtr 1879 Bedford. One daughter: Helen Caroline Dora Orr Ewing, b. c1880, Bedford. Caroline died Jun qtr 1880 Bedford, aged 19. ( :'()
Married (b) Edith Alice Fountain, Sep qtr 1887, Brentford.
Here's his family in 1891:
John Orr Ewing Head 36 Living on own means b. Liverpool
Edith Alice Orr Ewing Wife 36 b. Ealing
Helen C D Orr Ewing Dau 11 b. Bedford
Edith W Orr Ewing Dau 1 b. Preston Deanery, N/hants
Elizabeth Jane Fountain Visitor Living on own means b. Ealing
RG12/1192 - Folio 116 - Pg.2
In 1901, John is a "visitor" in what looks like a hotel in Margate. Edith is with the children, and listed as head of household:
Holmer Hall, Holmer, Hereford
Edith Orr Ewing Head 46 Living on own means b. Ealing
Dora Orr Ewing Dau 20 b. Bedford
Ina Orr Ewing Dau 10 b. Preston Deanery
Hugh Orr Ewing Son 9 b. Preston Deanery
Greta Orr Ewing Dau 8 b. Holmer, Herefordshire
Evelyn Orr Ewing Dau 7 b. Holmer, Herefordshire
Alice Orr Ewing Dau 6 b. Holmer, Herefordshire
Helen Orr Ewing Dau 3 b. Holmer, Herefordshire
(Plus the inevitable servants)
RG13/2482 - Folio 63 - Pg 17
2. Son of Sir Archibald Ewing and Elizabeth Reid - b. 1859, Glasgow
This one married an Ellen.
Rambler
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We'll all look forward to seeing Pauls webpage on this family dynasty ;)
ps. I think the marriage in 1879 for John Orr Ewing was to Caroline Dora Rodgers, because on the 1881 census a widowed John (annuitant) is living with his inlaws Moses and Caroline Rogers, their daugher Hannah, 2 grandsons Henry and Walter, and Johns daughter Helen C D?, as well as visitors Ship Builder/Broker Reginald W Bernheim? and Anne Oliver 69 Annuitant. Moses is a retired magistrate JP/Deputy Inspector............ cant read the rest of it...... St Paul Bedfordshire RG11/1619 Folio 72 Page 35
*ive just read your post Rambler which confirms above, thanks
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Here are the Liverpool John Orr Ewing's children on Free BMD:
Helen Caroline D[ora] O[rr] Ewing - Jun 1880 Bedford 3b 350 ("Dora")
Edith Wilhelmina O[rr] Ewing - Sep 1889 Hardingstone 3b 34a ("Ina")
Hugh James O[rr] Ewing - Jun 1891 Hardingstone 3b 35
Greta Mary Ewing - Sep 1892 Hereford 6a 464
Evelyn Margaret O[rr] Ewing - Dec 1893 Hereford 6a 451
Alice Orr Ewing - Jun 1895 Hereford 6a 478
Helen Douglas O[rr] Ewing - Dec 1897 Hereford 6a 458
Rambler
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Name: HUGH JAMES EWING
Death Registration Month/Year: Mar/87
Age: 95
Birth Date: 1 MAY 1891
District: Bristol County: Avon
Volume 22
Page 1081
Is this one of the Hugh James died aged 95!!??
Annie
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I'm indebted to JAP for some of those summaries, I've completely lost my way with the Molisons but when you put up the items we're looking for like you do it makes it a whole lot easier. I'll just search some and you fit them together. None of those listed seem to be appearing in either 1891 or 1901 in England.
Now I have an Annie Molison but she doesn't seem to be the one in the last list who should be about 29/30 ish.
1891 RG12 1893 Chard Folio 4 page 1
High Street, Chard, South Somerset
Robert P Gawler Head Widr 79 Baker (Master) Somerset Chard
Thomas Son S 31 Baker Assistant " "
Annie Molison daur Wid 38 " "
Leah Gawler " S 35 " "
Annie E G Molison Grand daur 3 " Bristol
Charles H Shere Assistant S 24 Baker (General Hand) Devon Collumpton
Caroline Matthews Servant 13 Domestic Servant (General) Dorset Wambrook
Annie Gawler married Charles John Molison Sept qtr 1886 Chard Somerset 5c 578
Annie Edith G Molison born Sept qtr 1887 Bristol 6a 41
Charles John Molison died March qtr 1890 age 39 Barton Regis Gloucestershire 6a 82
The following are the names of every Molison with an exact spelling in the 1891 and 1901, we may have them so I'm not going to give each entry, just list them. If somebody can tell me which we need then I'll get the information.
Name DOB Place of Birth Which Census
Alexander 1877 South Shields Durham 1891 1901
Annie EG 1888 Bristol 1891 1901 (known as Edith)
Annie EG 1856 Chard 1891 1901
Duncan D 1846 Stepney 1891 1901
Hannah 1880 South Shields Durham 1891
Isabel 1813 Scotland 1901
Isabella 1880 South Shields Durham 1901
Jeanie W 1867 Holloway 1891
Justina L 1850 Stepney 1891 1901
Louisa H 1869 Bow 1891 1901
Mary A 1845 Boldon Durham 1891
Sarah Ann 1837 Blackmore Essex 1891 1901 (Blackwell London)
William 1873 South Shields Durham 1891
William J 1871 Harlow Essex 1901
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Back to Francis sisters mentioned, born Mauritius
1901 still at same place RG13/1031 Godshill Isle of Wight Folio 15 Page 21
Holly Mount, St Boniface Road, Ventnor, Isle of Wight
Mary Francis Head S 62 Living on own means Mauritius
Caroline Prior Sister Wid 60 " " "
Ellen L Grant Servant S 28 General Servant Domestic Hants Ventnor
Don't know if this is just coincidence or related
1901
Sliamers Quay, Schooner "Jacinth" of Plymouth, Calstock, Cornwall
William Angel Head, Master M 34 Merchant Seaman Worker Devon Plymouth
Alfred Glanvill AM S 32 " " " " "
Charles Anderson OS S 18 " " " Australia
John Francis Cook S 23 " " " Mauritius
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I've updated the summaries for the ROBERTSON, MOLISON and MUIR families at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.0.html
All new info is in green.
I'll add a summary for the Ewings asap, but probably not before tomorrow, as I'm singing in a concert this evening.
Good hunting!
Rambler
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MR - don't know how you have managed to keep those summaries up to date - they are brilliant!
CatOne - I'm only here for the headlines ;), so you won't get me websiting this (not so) little lot (I'm struggling with my own tree - couldn't handle a whole forest!)
If the information sits here on Rootschat it will continue to appear on Google searches - its amazing how many times this thread is already coming up tops for searches on these families!
Just remember folks, it was 12 days into the April Challenge before Malcom found us. Fingers crossed that someone searching one of these lines finds us before the end of the month!
cheers
Paul
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Hi all,
Did a look up for someone today in the local reference library, just been reading through the copy and the name Robertson flew out at me - they get everywhere :o
Gloucester Journal 1st June 1918
Decorated by the King
Lieut. Donald Stewart Robertson, South Lancashire Regiment, attached to the Royal Flying Corps, who received the Military Cross. He is the son of the Rev. S. Richmond Robertson, St. Catherine's Vicarage, Gloucester.
Wonder if he is a relation of one of our Robertson's ?
Susan :)
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Samuel Richmond Robertson married (I think as only two names transcribed) Parnel Agnes Harris in June qtr 1882 Monmouth 11a 55
Parnel was born about 1858 in Staunton Gloucester, father Samuel Eli Harris a 40 year old widower in 1871, farmer of 115 acres, brothers and sisters Frances Elizabeth, James Hammond, Jane Ada, Samuel Alic, Anthony Hammond and grandparents James and Jane Harris. (Also at the farm was a James Hammond Unm 82 year old Clergyman without cure of souls, born London, Westbach Street)
Sounds an interesting family, but don't know if there's a connection, is it worth following? Still looking for a clergyman Samuel Richmond Robertson.
Mary
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Mary
Found the Rev. Samuel R. Robertson b 1857 Ellastone, Staffs.
1901 RG13/2425 Folio 81 page 37
( don't tell Paul, the Rev. also had a son called Claud ::) )
Rev. Samuel R Robertson son of Samuel Robertson 1818 Perth
Ellen Robertson 1814 Perth
May not be one of ours will do some more digging ;D
Susan
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Susan, I was just about to post that when yours popped up, I decided NOT to dig any more as soon as I saw CLAUDE!!! ;D
Don't want to clutter up new postings in case it's all irrelevant.
1923 Samuel Richmond Robertson was Rector at St Michael & all Angels, Withington, Gloucestershire, the next entry is 1926 so perhaps he was there 3 years.
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Just a thought that occured to me today:
We have Molisons/Davidsons in North east Scotland in 1800s and we've now got Molisons on Isle of Wight in late 1800s .... of course both areas must have been fashionable amongst the aspiring upper middle classes due to a certain Victoria's love of Deeside and IOW.
jo
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Mary
Don't be giving me heart attacks - I'm a delicate woman!!!!!! - CLAUDE!!
Annie
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Name: MOLISON, WILLIAM STRACHAN
Initials: W S
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Captain
Regiment: Royal Artillery
Secondary Regiment: Royal Air Force
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 622 A.O.P. Sqdn.
Age: 30
Date of Death: 28/03/1945
Service No: 109759
Awards: DFC and Bar
Additional information: Son of William James Molison and Hilda Maria Molison, of Sanderstead, Surrey.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 60. C. 13.
Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
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ORR EWING, ROBERT NORMAN
Initials: R N
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 20
Date of Death: 21/05/1940
Service No: 95629
Additional information: Son of Brigadier-General Sir Norman Orr Ewing, 4th Bt., C.B., D.S.O., A.D.C., V.L., and of Lady Orr Ewing (nee Roberts), of Cardross, Port of Monteith, Perthshire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 19. AA. 7.
Cemetery: HARLEBEKE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY
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Name: MUIR, JOHN HUGH
Initials: J H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment: Gordon Highlanders
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Age: 25
Date of Death: 26/09/1917
Additional information: Son of Agnes R. Muir, of 26, Cressenhall Rd., Southfields, London, and the late John B. Muir. Educated at Christ's Hospital. Came to England with the 1st Canadian Contingent, in 1914. Previously wounded a.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 135 to 136.
Cemetery: TYNE COT MEMORIAL
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Name: STRACHAN, AUBREY CAUSTON
Initials: A C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment: Royal Field Artillery
Unit Text: "C" Bty. 70th Bde.
Age: 23
Date of Death: 28/03/1918
Awards: MC and Bar
Additional information: Son of Lt. Col. E. A. Strachan (late R. Inniskilling Fus.) and Beatrice Strachan, of "Moorfield," Bodorgan Rd., Bournemouth.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: VII. C. 7.
Cemetery: FAUBOURG D'AMIENS CEMETERY, ARRAS
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Do you think this could be Douglas Muir Robertson ? it says on the image - son of a US citizen :P
Name Douglas Robertson
Arrival Date Sep 1919
Age 18 years 7 months
Birth Year 1901
Gender Male
Port of Departure Hong Kong
Ship Name Siberia Maru
Port of Arrival San Francisco
Birthplace London, England
Annie
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Name: ROBERTSON, CHARLES GRANVILLE
Initials: C G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment: Essex Regiment
Secondary Regiment: Northamptonshire Regiment
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 2nd Bn.
Age: 23
Date of Death: 27/03/1918
Additional information: Son of Charles Henry and Maria Elizabeth Robertson, of Spanish Point, Bermuda.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 51 and 52.
Cemetery: POZIERES MEMORIAL
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Name: ROBERTSON, CHARLES JOHN
Initials: C J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 30
Date of Death: 22/03/1917
Additional information: Son of Q.M.R., C. J. and Julie M. Robertson, of Colchester; husband of Hilda M. Robertson, of 36A, Emmanuel Rd., Balham, London.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: III. M. 14.
Cemetery: MAROEUIL BRITISH CEMETERY
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Mary - Widnes.........
Name: MUIR
Initials: A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Captain
Regiment: The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Unit Text: 10th Bn.
Age: 35
Date of Death: 15/05/1919
Additional information: Son of: John E. and Margaret Muir, husband of Beatrice L. Muir, of 7, Henley Rd., Mossley Hill, Liverpool. Born at Wigan. (buried Maselskaya Burial Ground).
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Cemetery: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL
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Name: MUIR, ALAN STEELE
Initials: A S
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment: Royal Scots
Unit Text: 8th Bn. attd. 9th Bn.
Age: 28
Date of Death: 12/11/1916
Additional information: Son of James Muir and Eliza Margaret Muir, of 2, Marchmont St., Edinburgh.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 35.
Cemetery: VARENNES MILITARY CEMETERY
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Is this the Mckay - Mcree etc connection ?
Name: MUIR, JOHN
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Master
Regiment: Merchant Navy
Unit Text: S.S. Carsbreck (Glasgow)
Age: 63
Date of Death: 24/10/1941
Additional information: Son of John and Jane Mackie McNabb Muir; husband of Elizabeth Muir.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 24.
Cemetery: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL
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Name: MUIR, THOMAS FREDERICK
Initials: T F
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment: Royal Naval Reserve
Unit Text: H.M. Trawler "Longset."
Age: 39
Date of Death: 06/02/1917
Additional information: Son of Thomas and Jessie Swanson Muir; husband of Jane Jessie Clouston, of Cumminess, Stenness, Orkney. Born in Ireland. Served for a long period of years as Chief Officer in the "Clan Line" of Steamships.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: In North-West corner.
Cemetery: STENNESS PARISH CHURCHYARD
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Name: MUIR MACKENZIE, SIR ROBERT CECIL
Initials: R C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment: Durham Light Infantry
Unit Text: 5th Bn. attd. 9th Bn.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 12/04/1918
Awards: MC
Additional information: 5th Bart. of Delvine, Son of Lt. Col. Sir Robert Smythe Muir Mackenzie, 4th Bart. of Delvine, R.A. and Lady Muir Mackenzie (nee Johnstone-Gordon); husband of Lady Muir Mackenzie, of Cassencarrie, Torquay, Devon.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IX. C. 4.
Cemetery: BIENVILLERS MILITARY CEMETERY
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I've posted a summary of the Orr-Ewing and Leckie-Ewing families at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.15.html
Let me know if I've missed anything important!
Rambler
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ORR EWING, ROBERT NORMAN
Initials: R N
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 20
Date of Death: 21/05/1940
Service No: 95629
Additional information: Son of Brigadier-General Sir Norman Orr Ewing, 4th Bt., C.B., D.S.O., A.D.C., V.L., and of Lady Orr Ewing (nee Roberts), of Cardross, Port of Monteith, Perthshire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 19. AA. 7.
Cemetery: HARLEBEKE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY
Sir Norman Archibald Orr Ewing, son of Sir Archibald Ernest Orr Ewing, m. Laura Louisa Robarts in 1911. This is one of their children. (We hadn't got as far as this generation in my summary, but Norman Archibald is there.)
Rambler
-
War casualties
William Strachan Molison we already know about, but I can't link any of the others Annie has posted to our families. Can anyone do better?
Rambler
-
Liverpool Annie,
I'm battling to fit everything into the picture :)
It would be helpful (to me for one!) if you could explain where all these recent guys you've posted fit in to the family tree of our hero Allan. ::)
Thanks a lot,
Judy 8)
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Do you think this could be Douglas Muir Robertson ? it says on the image - son of a US citizen :P
Name Douglas Robertson
Arrival Date Sep 1919
Age 18 years 7 months
Birth Year 1901
Gender Male
Port of Departure Hong Kong
Ship Name Siberia Maru
Port of Arrival San Francisco
Birthplace London, England
Annie
Douglas was born in Liverpool in 1900.
Would he make a mistake over birthyear & birthplace?
And can I add we are now at 989 posts - just 11 more to go to reach 1000 posts!! ;D
BD
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Liverpool Annie,
I'm battling to fit everything into the picture :)
It would be helpful (to me for one!) if you could explain where all these recent guys you've posted fit in to the family tree of our hero Allan. ::)
Thanks a lot,
Judy 8)
Chances are high that they probably dont fit in. IMO.
Maybe Annie just wants this thread to get to 1000 posts. LOL ;D
BD
-
And can I add we are now at 989 posts - just 11 more to go to reach 1000 posts!! ;D
BD
Well, Burrow Digger, this situation is being monitored closely! :)
This thread is already the all-time longest on Rootschat, and has reached number 5 in the list of threads viewed, at a staggering 10350 at 14:39 GMT (even if most of those were Annie and I clicking on to watch you experts at work!) :) And all this within two weeks!
This is one addictive soap opera!
Paul
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I've found a mildly famous Robertson, who's connected to Allan's tree:
Among Archibald Robertson and Janet Moody's children was John Robertson (1788) who married Betsey Morrison. One of their sons was John Wallace Robertson (1825), and he married a shipowner's daughter named Catherine Barr Thompson. They had 4 children:
John Howard Robertson - b. 20 Jul 1864, Glasgow
Henry Wallace Robertson - b. 27 Jan 1866, Row, Dunbarton
Margaret Christina Robertson - b. 18 Jan 1868, Row, Dunbarton
Archibald Aeneas Robertson - b. 3 Jul 1870, Row, Dunbarton
Archibald Aeneas was ordained in the Church of Scotland, and became the first person to climb all the Scottish mountains over 3,000' high - commonly called the Munros, after Sir Hugh Munro, who catalogued them. He was also a keen photographer, and carted his heavy camera and equipment up peaks in Scotland and Europe.
Quite a few hits on Google (also with spelling Eneas), inc. http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/people/famousfirst1364.html
Rambler
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Did you notice that the site mentioned by you, MR, is sponsored by The Robertson Trust, founded by The Robertson Sisters, Miss Agnes, Miss Elspeth and Miss Ethel. They inherited, from their father William, a "controlling interest in the Robertson & Baxter & Clyde Bonding Company now known as the Edrington Group"
http://www.therobertsontrust.org.uk/history.htm
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Picture of a Robertson in Navarro County Texas WW1
http://www.rootsweb.com/~txnavarr/war/world_war_i/men_from_frost.htm
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Hi Annie,
There's 2 Robertson's, 2 McGee's (that name's come up)
and a Spencer, (someone posted that name ).
:D Lesanne.
-
Did you notice that the site mentioned by you, MR, is sponsored by The Robertson Trust, founded by The Robertson Sisters, Miss Agnes, Miss Elspeth and Miss Ethel. They inherited, from their father William, a "controlling interest in the Robertson & Baxter & Clyde Bonding Company now known as the Edrington Group"
http://www.therobertsontrust.org.uk/history.htm
Nice find Cat...
The source of the Trust Fund's money is whisky:
Highland Distilleries Co Ltd was formed in 1887 through the merger of the Islay Distillery Co Ltd, owners of the Bunnahabhain Distillery, Islay, Argyll & Bute, Scotland, and William Grant & Co, owners of the Glenrothes-Glenlivit Distillery, Rothes, Moray, Scotland. Capital was raised through sale to the public of 13,340 ordinary £5 shares and 230 £100 debentures. From the outset, the company shared offices at 48 West Nile St, Glasgow, Scotland, with Robertson & Baxter, whisky merchants. Relationships between the two firms were very close and they had many directors in common.
In 1892, Highland Distilleries Co Ltd acquired the Glenglassaugh Distillery at Portsoy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. In order to fund the purchase the company issued a further £13,500 of debentures. In 1898, the chairman and founding director , W A Robertson, died. Following a fire at Glenrothes-Glenlivit Distillery the firm was short of stock and in 1898 acquired the Tamdhu-Glenlivit Distillery in exchange for 5,500 shares. In 1905, a further three of the founding directors died, William Grant, Robert Dick and James Ford.
From http://www.archiveshub.ac.uk/news/03052002.html
Not sure whether we've had a William Robertson yet, and therefore whether this family connects...
Paul
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;D Hey Guys,
Only 3 more to go!!!
Hope we get Music and Graphic fireworks to celebrate. 8)
;D Lesanne. ;D
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Another Leckie Ewing - and by a nice little coincidence he takes us back to where the April Challenge began!
John Leckie Ewing (son of William Leckie Ewing and Eleanora McFarlane) married Anna Maria Watson in Glasgow on 27 Oct 1864. They had a son William Leckie Ewing, b. 17 Nov 1865 in Sale, Cheshire. (IGI)
Here they are in 1871, living in Chorlton on Medlock, Salford:
John Leckie Ewing Head 37 Commission Agent b. Glasgow
Anna M L Ewing Wife 30 b. Glasgow
William L Ewing Son 5 b. Sale Moor, Cheshire
Frances K L Ewing Dau 1 Hazel Grove, Cheshire
James G L Ewing Son 1m Manchester
(4 servants)
RG10/3990 - Folio 141 - Pg 13
Rambler
-
Can only find Anna Maria and youngest son in 1881:
19 Hove Villas, Hove
Anna Maria L Ewing Wife Married 40 Interest of Money b. Scotland
James G Ewing Son 10 Scholar b. Manchester
RG11/1097 - Folio 48 - Pg 5
Free BMD births:
William Leckie Ewing - Dec 1865 - Altrincham 8a 147
James Graham Ewing - Mar 1871 - Chorlton 8c 707
Cheshire BMD births:
Frances Killian Ewing - 1869 - Hazel Grove
Rambler
-
Paul, could this be William A Robertson in 1881?
Source: FHL Film 0203691 GRO vol 646-2 page 39
Dowanhill Gardens Dunard, Govan, Lanark
William A Robertson Head m 48 Wine Broker b: Leven, Fife
Agnes Robertson wife m 43 b: Glasgow
Jane H Robertson daur u 19 b: Glasgow
Agnes R Robertson daur u 16 b: Eastwood, Renfrew
Ethel Robertson daur 5 b: Partick
Grace B Robertson daur 1 b: Partick
plus 6 servants
Susan :)
-
It HAD to be a Kezia!!
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From Free BMD:
John Orr Ewing (1859) m. Ellen Clarissa Kennard, Sep qtr 1883, Kensington.
Oldest child Archibald Ian Ewing b. Jun qtr 1884, Kensington.
Rambler
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Hi Folks,
Didn't realise I had made it a thousand hits.
Well done everyone on a super challenge
Susan ;D ;D ;D
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1901
Holmer Hall Hereford
Alice Ewing abt 1895 Holmer, Herefordshire Daughter Holmer Herefordshire
Dora Ewing abt 1881 Bedford, Bedfordshire Daughter Holmer Herefordshire
Edith Orr Ewing abt 1855 Ealing, Middlesex Head Holmer Herefordshire
Evelyn Ewing abt 1894 Holmer, Herefordshire Daughter Holmer Herefordshire
Greta Ewing abt 1893 Holmer, Herefordshire Daughter Holmer Herefordshire
Helen Ewing abt 1898 Holmer, Herefordshire Daughter Holmer Herefordshire
Hugh Ewing abt 1892 Northants, Preston Deanery Son Holmer Herefordshire
Ina Ewing abt 1890 Northants, Preston Deanery Daughter Holmer Herefordshire
Clara Howells abt 1883 Ludlow, Shropshire Servant Holmer Herefordshire
Elizabeth Mc Kenzie abt 1877 Scilly Isles, St Mary Servant Holmer Herefordshire
Celia Paige abt 1883 Cheddar, Somerset Servant Holmer Herefordshire
Louisa Pritchard abt 1887 Holmer, Herefordshire Servant Holmer Herefordshire
Agnes Bayliss abt 1878 Weston Beggard, Herefordshire Servant Holmer Herefordshire
Rosa Davis abt 1856 London Servant Holmer Herefordshire
Edith was living on own means and was deaf!
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Want a new boat ??? ??? looks like we have 2 Orrs in the water!!
1899 16b Eelin 65' Capt Orr Ewing
- 17b Cherub Fishing boat F W Leith
- 18b Wayward 24 ton Sailing yacht C A Fletcher
- 19b Endrick 36' A E Orr Ewing
http://www.berthongroup.co.uk/company/buildreg1.html#top
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RIP Claude Robertson? :( ???
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/memorials/Memorial.cfm?EventGroup=16&MemorialPage=3&MemorialID=M3759
This shows a possible death for a Claude W Robertson (apologies if anyone has posted this before and I missed it):
Robertson, Claude William
Age:
Date of death: 21/7/1900 Cause of death: Unknown/None
Rank/Occupation:
Organisation: Royal Marine Light Infantry
Notes:
Captain RMLI, O.C. 'B' Squadron 1st Australian Bushmen. B.Godalming, Sy. 1868 and was serving in Sydney, Australia at outbreak of Boer War. Volunteered to join Australian Bushmen and landed at Beirg. Involved with relief of Mefeking.
Not sure how far apart Peckham and Godalming are.
Right age and name - any views?
Paul
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Paul
We've been there!! - remember ?
Annie ???
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Thought we might have been - or at least you had been! :) I just saw your posting on the South African board (it came up on Google) so I now see we have this. I like the right year of birth though.
Paul
Sorry MR - forgot about the Claude W debate (and Annie has kindly reminded me!) ... I'll get my coat!
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Well done everyone reaching that amazing milestone!
I'm off to sunny Wales on Saturday (forecast for a heatwave 8) 8) ) and before that need a little time to pack and get ready, so I'm ducking out of this now. It's been great fun, lots of luck to you all, hope you get all the little threads tied up and I'll check back to see how you did towards the end of the month.
If anybody wants an up to date copy of the Word Doc. for this thread, email me before Friday evening (GMT) and I'll send it to you before I go.
Miss me!
;D ;D
Mary
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Leckie Ewing
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/100men/gm34.htm
and a picture too!!
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Now we're running the country...............:P
http://www.alba.org.uk/westminster/lords.html
This should start something ::)
Annie
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Not on the list but with a connection to the Bank of Scotland - I'm sure he's connected ::)
26 January 2003
Death of Vicount Younger of Leckie (George Younger), Conservative politician and bank chairman. He served seven years as Secretary of State for Scotland during Margaret Thatcher's Westminster premiership and as Defence Secretary in both the Heath and Thatcher governments. He was chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland from 1990 to 2001
Annie
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Honourary Colonels of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
1896.08.05 Walter John Francis (Erskine), Earl of Mar and Kellie, Viscount Fentoun, Lord Erskine of Direletowne
1932.08.05 Hon. Brig-Gen. Sir Norman A. Orr Ewing, Bt., DSO, ADC
Lt.-Col. (Hon. Col.) The Viscount Younger of Leckie, OBE, TD, DL [to 1967]
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/volmil-scotland/vinf/ash-7.htm
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Baronetage
ORR-EWING of Ballikinran,Stirling
8 Mar 1886 UK 1 Archibald Orr-Ewing 4 Jan 1818 27 Nov 1893 75
MP for Dumbartonshire 1868-1892
27 Nov 1893 2 William Orr-Ewing 14 Feb 1848 20 Aug 1903 55
20 Aug 1903 3 Archibald Ernest Orr-Ewing 22 Feb 1853 21 Apr 1919 66
21 Apr 1919 4 Norman Archibald Orr-Ewing 23 Nov 1880 26 Mar 1960 79
26 Mar 1960 5 Ronald Archibald Orr-Ewing 14 May 1912 14 Sep 2002 90
14 Sep 2002 6 Archibald Donald Orr-Ewing 20 Dec 1938
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Baronetage
ORR-EWING of Hendon,Middlesex
27 Jun 1963 UK 1 Charles Ian Orr-Ewing,Baron Orr-Ewing 10 Feb 1912 19 Aug 1999 87
19 Aug 1999 2 Alistair Simon Orr-Ewing 10 Jun 1940
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Do we have this already ???
Archibald Orr-Ewing, Esquire, of Ballikinrain, is the seventh son of the late William Ewing, Esquire, of Ardvullin, Dunoon, by Susan, daughter of John Orr, Esquire, of Underwood, Paisley. He was born in 1819; and, in 1847, married Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of James Reid, Esquire, of Berriedale and Caldercruix. He has, with other issue, William, born in 1848; and educated at Pembroke College, Cambridge. Mr. Orr-Ewing was elected M.P. for Dumbartonshire in 1868.
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All Molisons
Scotland Marriage Index
1876-1926
Alexina Mollison 1896 McHardy, John Jamie A-Brechin
Alfred 1918 Morrison, Isabella M-Edinburgh Canongate
Alice 1911 Little, James RX-Hawick
Alice 1919 Chivers, Patrick P-Alyth
Alice 1919 Myles, Thomas Huggan RX-Hawick
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I don't know whether anybody has posted this already but looked promising.
Dr Andrew Orr-Ewing has been awarded the 1999 Marlow Medal of the Faraday Division of the Royal Society of Chemistry. The award is given annually and consists of a medal and monetary prize of £500 for the most meritorious contributions to physical chemistry or chemical physics. The award is made on the basis of publications on any subject normally published in the JCS Faraday Transactions, I and II, which carry a date of receipt not later than the candidate's 32nd birthday.
Including photograph http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/whatsnew/andrewsmedal.htm
And there is a contact telephone and email etc. here http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/staff/aoewing.htm
Maybe somebody could send him an email, not me please in case he replies and I'm away on holiday.
Mary
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Wonder if these Molisons fit in with ours???
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,45632.0.html
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Do we have this already ???
Archibald Orr-Ewing, Esquire, of Ballikinrain, is the seventh son of the late William Ewing, Esquire, of Ardvullin, Dunoon, by Susan, daughter of John Orr, Esquire, of Underwood, Paisley. He was born in 1819; and, in 1847, married Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of James Reid, Esquire, of Berriedale and Caldercruix. He has, with other issue, William, born in 1848; and educated at Pembroke College, Cambridge. Mr. Orr-Ewing was elected M.P. for Dumbartonshire in 1868.
Yes - everything we have about the Orr-Ewings up to yesterday is in the summary at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.15.html
Check here if you want to know what we have (or don't have!) for the Robertsons, Molisons, Muirs and Ewings - it will save covering the same ground twice.
Rambler
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I don't quite know how this fits, can anyone help? By the DOB it's not the Alexander Ewing who we started out with born 1811 in Baldernock, maybe a cousin.
EWING, JULIANA HORATIA ORR
(1841-1885), English writer of booksfor children, daughter of the Rev. Alfred Gatty and of Margaret Gatty, (q.v.), was born .at Ecclesfield, Yorkshire, in. 1841. One of a large family, she was accustomed to, act as nursery story-teller to her brothers and sisters, and her brother Alfred Scott Gatty provided music to accompany her plays. She was well educated in classics and modern languages, and at an early age began to publish verses, being a contributor to Aunt Judys Magazine, which her mother started in 1866. The Land of Lost Toys and many other of Julian.as stories appeared in this magazine. In 1867 she married Major Alexander Ewing, himself an author, and the composer of the well-known hymn Jerusalem the Golden. From thistime until her death (I3th may 1885), previously to which she had been a constant invalid, Mrs Ewing produced a number of charming childrens stories. The best of these are: The Brownies (1870), A Fiat-Iron for a Farthing (1873), Lob-lie-by the Fire (1874), The Story of a Short Life (1885) and Jackanapes (1884), the two last-named, in particular, obtaining great success; among others may be mentioned Mrs Over-the-FVays Remembrances (1869), Six to Sixteen, Jan of the Windmill (1876), A Great Emergency (1877), We and the World (188f), Old-Fashioned Fairy Tales, Brothers af Pity (1882), The Dolls Wash, Master Fritz, Our Garden, A Soldiers Children, Three Little Nest-Birds, A Week Spent in a Glass-House, A Sweet Little Dear, and Blue-Red (1883). Many of these were published by the S.P.C.K. Simple and unaffected in. style, and so,und and wholesome in matter, with quiet touches of humour and bright sketches of scenery and character, Mrs Ewings best stories have never been surpassed in the style of literature to which. they belong.
Source: http://16.1911encyclopedia.org/E/EW/EWING_JULIANA_HORATIA_ORR.htm
Juliana's husband Alexander 1830-1895.
Then there is also another Alexander, with again a different DOB
EWING, ALEXANDER (1814-1873), Scottish divine, was born of an old Highland family in Aberdeen on the 25th of March 1814. In October 1838 he was admitted to deacons orders, and after his return from Italy he took charge of the episcopal congregation at Forres, and was ordained apresbyter in the autumn of 1841. In 1846 he was elected first bishop of the newly restored diocese of Argyll and the Isles, the duties of which position he discharged till his death on the 22nd of May 1873. In 1851 he received the degree of D.C.L. from the university of Oxford~ Though hampered by a delicate bodily constitution, he worked in a spirit of buoyant cheerfulness. By the charm of his personal manner and his catholic sympathies he gradually attained a prominent position. In theological discnision he contended for the exercise of a wide tolerance, and attached little importance to ecclesiastical authority and organization. His own theological position had close affinity with that of Thomas Erskine of Linlathen and Frederick Denison Maurice; but his opinions were the fruit of his own meditation, and were colored by his owp individuality~ The trend of his teaching is only to be gathered from fragmentary publicationsletters to the newspapers, pamphlets, special sermons, essays contributed to the series of Present Day Papers, of which he was the editor, and a volume of sermons entitled Revelation considered as Light.
Besides his strictly theological writings, Ewing was the author of the Cathedral or 4bbey Church of lena (1865), the first part of which contains drawings and descriptive letterpress of the ruins, arid the second a history of the early Celtic church and the mission of St Columba. See Memoir of Alexander Ewing, D.C.L., by A. J. Ross (1877).
Source: http://15.1911encyclopedia.org/E/EW/EWING_ALEXANDER.htm
Mary
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Hi Mary
Hope youhavea good break in Wales! And if you run into Claude, Allan and Charlotte while you are there... :)
Paul
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MaryA's Alexander Ewings:
1. Son of Alexander Ewing and Barbara McCombie, b. 3 Jan 1830, Aberdeen. Alexander and Barbara were married in Aberdeen on 23 Dec 1822.
2. Son of John Ewing and Elspet Aiken, chr. 25 Mar 1814, Aberdeen. John and Elspet were married on 03 Jul 1813 in Aberdeen.
I don't think these two have any obvious link to our Ewing branches, who are mainly in Stirling and Lanarkshire.
Rambler
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Hi All,
I had another update from Michael.
There's messages to you all as well as some Molison info...
Thought I had better send an update. The info coming out is truly amazing. What a group of fossickers you all are. Smart intuitive and deductive.
How good are we at South African research? It's new to me so an interesting avenue.
The reasons you don't find so any Molisons in England in 1891 is because they migrated to South Africa.
The oldest girl married a Reverend Green of Pietermaritzburg who quarrelled violently with Rev Colenso which led in turn to a case in the House of Lords.
Saltoun died a derelict alcoholic on the banks of a river in Zululand in 1911 living horror of all horrors with a native woman. Green the distinguished churchman had to swallow quite a bit of dignity to bury Saltoun, his brother in law.
Allan Davidson Molison died in 1944. He after migrating left school and became a prospector in Barberton that most romantic of all South African towns where he had a most blood curdling death to attend to when he was the Mines Inspector there. A miner called Steele- yes, the Steele who married his sister and who was killed in an incredibly gory way. Allan buried him. Mildred the sister went back to England with Dorothy the only daughter who was 4 months old when her father was killed in Barberton.
Allan spoke fluent French and German and had such an incredible life of riding horses and guns and wars and the like- wonderful for a boy to hear that sort of stuff.
This corrects the mistake I made earlier...
There were 2 Duncan Dunbars. DDI had a lot of kids and started the business at Dunbar Wharf. DDII became the millionaire lived Portcheter Tce, and died unmarried.
Jot, JAP and Mary A have delivered new and exciting material for us. Fantastic work. Finding Saltoun in Brighton was a great pleasure to read. Allan Saltoun and my g-g grandfather Robert all went to school together. Terrific to know that.
So a big thanks from Michael I'm off to see what South Africa holds awaiting discovery.
Pam
;D
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"The 149 year Illustrated Log of the Edwin Fox"
Including paintings and sketches of the ship.
Several mentions of the Dunbars and Molisons.
http://www.nzmaritime.co.nz/edwinfox.htm
The Edwin Fox is
*The ninth oldest ship afloat in the world
*the oldest wooden merchant ship afloat
*the last surviving Crimea War troopship (1854)
*The last surviving convict ship to Australia (1858)
*The last surviving wooden immigrant ship to New Zealand (1873)
* Currently at the Dunbar Wharf, Picton , New Zealand.
-
So a big thanks from Michael I'm off to see what South Africa holds awaiting discovery.
Pam
;D
Brilliant information on South Africa! Wonder if Claude's there?? :)
Paul
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http://www.gerbera.org/barberton-beginnings.html
"And here, on a private farm belonging to G.P. Moodie, they found the richest strike so far discovered in the valley. "
Just seems a coincidence the name Moodie - couldn't find a GP Moodie on the summary though!!
Annie
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Domestic Announcements
Transcribed from South Africa Magazine, 23 January 1915
Pigot Moodie
Killed in action on January 13, Charles Alfred Pigot Moodie Rifle Brigade and of 10, Cadogan Gardens, S.W., younger son of the late George Pigot Moodie of Westbrooke, Rondebosch, South Africa, aged 24 years.
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1901 8 The Drive North Wimbledon
Caroline W Beavan abt 1843 Cape Colony Sister North Wimbledon Surrey
Lucy Hendley abt 1883 Nethern Allop, Hampshire Servant North Wimbledon Surrey
Chas A Moodie abt 1891 Cape Colony Nephew North Wimbledon Surrey
Edith J G Moodie abt 1844 Cape Colony Head North Wimbledon Surrey
Geo F A Pigot Moodie abt 1889 Cape Colony Lodger North Wimbledon Surrey
Minna J Moodie abt 1883 Transvaal Niece North Wimbledon Surrey
Ellen Moody abt 1876 India Servant North Wimbledon Surrey
Jane Norris abt 1848 Andover, Hampshire Servant North Wimbledon Surrey
Eliza Oxford abt 1864 Southampton, Hampshire Servant North Wimbledon Surrey
Annie Rull abt 1887 Andover, Hampshire Servant North Wimbledon Surrey
I don't know if I am following the right family here - I'm going to stop till I know for sure ::) ::)
Annie
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http://www.pinetreeweb.com/journal-dinizulu.htm
a little history - looks like the daughter of Rev Colenso (Harriette) had plenty to say and that was in the days before "Women's Lib " :P :P
Annie
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In the archives at University of Cape Town Library :
BC696 G P MOODIE PAPERS
Copies of letters G. Pigot Moodie to Rose Pigot Moodie 1880-1886
" " G P Moodie to his mother and sister 1870-1886
Rose could be his wife (or his sister ::) )
Susan :)
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Susan
Wonder if the sister and the letters - would be Edith Moodie or Caroline Beavan in London ???
How could we find out?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
I didn't copy down the web page ???
Found it by google search ( G P Moodie) and at the bottom of the page was a reference to someone who must be researching George Pigot Moodie :) and possibility of a relative - see what you think.
Susan ;D
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1871
Just a maybe... ::) For Rose.........
Mary Buxton abt 1854 Staveley, Derbyshire Servant Whittington Lancashire
Elizabeth Dixon abt 1852 Berwick, Lancashire Servant Whittington Lancashire
Margaret Fleming abt 1854 Ambleside, Westmorland Servant Whittington Lancashire
Elizabeth A Foxcroft abt 1858 Preston, Lancashire Servant Whittington Lancashire
Isabella Hoggarth abt 1853 Barbon, Westmorland Servant Whittington Lancashire
Mary M Hornby abt 1825 Lancaster, Lancashire Sister-in-law Whittington Lancashire
Alice C Pigot abt 1859 Whittington, Lancashire Daughter Whittington Lancashire
Amy H Pigot abt 1861 Whittington, Lancashire Daughter Whittington Lancashire
Edmund H Pigot abt 1865 Kirkby Lonsdale, Westmorland Son Whittington Lancashire
Edward Pigot abt 1819 St Helens, Lancashire Head Whittington Lancashire
Fanny Pigot abt 1823 Lancashire Wife Whittington Lancashire
Frances S Pigot abt 1850 Ashton, Lancashire Daughter Whittington Lancashire
Gertrude E Pigot abt 1851 Ashton, Lancashire Daughter Whittington Lancashire
Henry Pigot abt 1858 Dalton, Lancashire Son Whittington Lancashire
Lucy E Pigot abt 1853 Ashton, Lancashire Daughter Whittington Lancashire
Rose A M Pigot abt 1868 Whittington, Lancashire Daughter Whittington Lancashire
Margaret Thompson abt 1828 Holme, Westmorland Servant Whittington Lancashire
???
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1881
Agnes Anne Garlick abt 1868 Newton Servant The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Jane Garlick abt 1860 Newton, Lancashire Servant The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Mary Margaret Hornby abt 1825 Dalton, Lancashire Sister in Law The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Ellen Jones abt 1840 Llanfair, Anglesey, Wales Servant The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Alice Charlotte Pigot abt 1859 Whittington, Lancashire Daughter The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Amy Henrietta Pigot abt 1861 Whittington, Lancashire Daughter The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Arthur Pigot abt 1852 Liverpool, Lancashire Son in Law The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Charlotte Pigot abt 1786 Wollerton, Shropshire Aunt The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Edward Pigot abt 1819 St Helens, Lancashire Head The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Fanny Pigot abt 1823 Bolton, Lancashire Wife The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Frances Sarah Pigot abt 1850 Ashton, Lancashire Daughter The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Lucy Ellenor Pigot abt 1853 Bolton, Lancashire Daughter The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Mary Elizabeth Gertrude Pigot abt 1851 Ashton, Lancashire Daughter The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Rose Alice Pigot abt 1868 Whittington, Lancashire Daughter The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
Fanny Elizabeth Shaw abt 1862 Pendleton, Lancashire Servant The Rectory, Whittington, Lancashire
1891 Rose still there aged 23 ::)
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BC 696 G P Moodie PAPERS
Manuscripts & Archives
University of Cape Town Libraries
No. of items
A
Letters from G Pigot Moodie to Rose Pigot Moodie, 1880-1886
29
B Letters from GP Moodie to his mother and sister, 1870-1886 27
C
Letters of thanks etc to G P Moodie from Paul Kruger and others.
Obituary notice 17.9.1920
19
D
Certificates etc relating to appointments of G P Moodie
6
All the above are photocopies of originals lent to us by Professor Arthur Davey. Originals borrowed by him from Miss A Moodie, Rondebosch and Major General GD Moodie, Heidelberg, Cape.
I really don't want to pursue this until I know we're on the right track...... ???
but I'll leave it here just in case!!
Annie
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Name Molison Osbert William
Record Type Deaths
Age at death 26
Quarter December
Year 1882
District Hastings
County Sussex
Volume 2b
Page 20
Looks like Osbert was close to Brighton too !!
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Here's a modern day Claude in Texas...................... ??? ??? ???
<Recent info removed>
Sorry Annie but we don't really like to post birth information about living people without their permission
Sorry Pam you're right ! I should have realised that - got a little carried away 'cos it was a Claude!!! :P
Annie
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I'm preparing to have my wrists shot down in flames with this one - honestly can't remember if we've had it before:
At 31 Church Road, Hoylake, West Kirby in 1901 (close to where we found Allan living with his mother in 1891):
Archibald M Robertson, Head, 44, Cotton Brokers' Manager, Ireland
Edith M Robertson, Wife, 33, Flint, Harwarden
William A Robertson, Son, 11, Southport, Lancs
Alan F Robertson, Son, 10, Southport, Lancs
Kathleen E Robertson, Daur, 8, Southport, Lancs
Margaret B Robertson, Daur, 7, Southport, Lancs
Jas. H Robertson, Son, 3, West Kirby, Cheshire
Anne E L Macbeth, Servant, 23 Lancs Southport
I like the occupation for Archibald, I like where they're living and I liked the 'M' - thought it might be Mackae!
In 1891, Edith, William and Allan F are in Huddersfield, sans Archibald. They are with Edith's mother, Ellen Ferrier, widow, 66, born Yorkshire, Huddersfield and 'living on own means' - all at 1 West Hill, Huddersfield. Allan is just 2 months old (maybe born there? - except the 1901 says Southport).
Hubby is in Liverpool, at Toxteth Park - just five doors down from Thomas Cain, brewer, at 9 ?Marmion? Road:
Archibald M Robertson, Head, Married, ? 34 ?, Clerk, Ireland
Eleanor C Robertson, Wid, 55, Worseley
Sarah L Robertson, Sister, 30, Lancashire, Liverpool
Agnes B Roberston, Sister, 24, Lancashire, Liverpool
Margaret M Robertson, Sister, 22, Lancashire, Liverpool
Elizabeth Brideson, Servant, 23, Lancashire, Liverpool
Marriage of Archibald MacIver Robertson to Edith Mary Ferrier, Sept Qtr of 1887 in Huddersfield.
(Edith is from a Grocer's family in Cwmdu, Glamorgan - father born Ireland).
Oh well - so not a Mackae, but a solid Scots name, I guess.
Nothing substantial to connect this family with our - but they certainly like to move around: Ireland, Huddersfield, Southport, Hoylake and Liverpool for Archibald.
Can't find his mother, Eleanor, definitively in 1881 or 1871 - can anyone else?
cheers
Paul
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This is a quickie - regarding Rev Green of Pietermaritzburg ::)
"He was married in Fort Beaufort Anglican church, by Rev. Green. (Rev. James Green arrived at the Cape in Aug. 1848, toured the province from Sep.to Dec.1848, and embarked for Natal in Jan 1849) This indicates that Donaldson must have married Oct/Nov 1848 This indicates that Donaldson must have married Oct/Nov 1848, while Green was on his travels."
-
1901
It seems like Dorothy is in boarding school ::)
Name - Dorothy Steele
Age - 14
birth year - 1887
Relation - Pupil
Gender - Female
Born - Cape Colony
Civil parish - New Milverton
Ecclesiatical parish - New Milverton St Mark
Town - Leamington
County - Warwickshire
Folio 118
Page 24
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OK we were going back and forth on Janet/ Jessie Robertson about half way through this thread and I checked the summaries and couldn't find anything on her - so I 'm just saying - I think this might be of interest -
http://users.bigpond.net.au/morrisons.engadine.australia/canadian%20morrisons.html
though I did email and invited them to join us !!! apologies if Mary Pam or MR already did it!!
Annie
PS I didn't want to post the whole thing - hence the web site address !!
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Well here's the response from the Morrison Family ( Australia )
Annie, thank you for your query, but the Allan ROBERTSON in my Canadian Branch does not match up with your lad.
Check out his origins at the link on No. iii below. I did not go to the "Chat Site".
Allan ROBERTSON. Born on Dec 20 1833 in Collace, Perth, Scotland..
On Aug 22 1856, when Allan was 22, he married Isabella BALLINGOL.
They had the following children ...
i. Margaret ROBERTSON (b.1856)
ii. Peter ROBERTSON, b.1860 (b.1860)
1 iii. Allan ROBERTSON, b.1872 (1872 - 1952)
What's weird to me is - that we DO have Janet don't we?? and remember when we were talking about 2 Allan Robertsons........... ::)
Annie
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Hmmm... curiouser yet curiouser! I'm sure MR will sort this out when she gets back from her Round the World in 80 Hours research trip! :)
Paul
PS
The day we find Allan after 1891, I'll be dusting off my red beret in celebration!
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Paul, this looks like your "Eleanor Robertson" in 1871 -
15 ....George Square.....Liverpool St Thomas
RG10/3778 Folio40 page74
Eleanora C Robertson Widow 39 Worsley Lancs
Alen Son 21 Commercial Clerk Cheshire Birkenhead
Robert P Son 12 Ireland
Agnes B Daughter 9 Liverpool
Henry Pendlebury Brother 34 Commercial Clerk Liverpool
Agnes Robertson Aunt Widow 65 Annuitant Scotland
+ 1 servant
Are they connected to our Robertsons??
CatOne
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and this is her in 1861 with husband and other children -
RG9/2676 Folio 85 Page 36
Liverpool St Thomas 15....George Sq
William Wood Robertson 38 Blockmaker Scotland
Eleanor C 31 Lancs Worlsey
Alan 10 Cheshire
Sarah J/L 7 Liverpool
Archibald M J 4 Ireland
Robert P 2 Ireland
+ 2 servants
CatOne
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Back on the thread after a hectic weekend - looks like I've a lot to catch up on!
South Africa? Very interesting - no wonder they seemed to thin out later on. The IGI doesn't throw up anything for Molison there, unfortunately, but aren't they a fascinating family!
The Moody family connected to Allan spell their name with a "y", rather than "ie", so I doubt we can make a connection with Annie's Moodie family, although you never know...
Archibald Robertson - I vaguely remember noticing him at some point while looking for Robertsons, but never went back to see if he was connected. The coincidence of name, location and occupation is intriguing, isn't it?
Free BMD has the birth of Alan Ferrier Robertson in Ormskirk district, Mar 1891.
Also an Edward McIver Robertson in Bolton district, Sep 1870.
Will try and follow this family up!
Janet/Jessie Morrison - I thought we had ruled her out already, which is why she's not in the summary! Allan certainly had an aunt named Janet Robertson, but Janet/Jessie's mother was named Janet Fleming Robertson, and lived in Scotland. According to the Morrison website, Janet Fleming Robertson's brother Alan married Isabella Ballingol, and had a son Allan born in Perth on 17 Apr 1872. (This checks with an extracted IGI entry.) Our Allan is the son of James Robertson and Mary Marshall Molison, born in Camberwell on 21 Oct 1872. The IGI records 9 different Allan Robertsons born in England or Scotland in 1872!
Rambler
-
Could this be the aunt Agnes Robertson that was visiting Eleanor/a Robertson in 1871?
1881 RG11/3626 Folio 39 Page 19
40 Catherine Street, Liverpool Mount Pleasant
Margaret McIver Unm 75 Annuitant Greenock, Scotland
Agnes Robertson Widow 80 Greenock, Scotland
+ servant
-
Could this be the aunt Agnes Robertson that was visiting Eleanor/a Robertson in 1871?
1881 RG11/3626 Folio 39 Page 19
40 Catherine Street, Liverpool Mount Pleasant
Margaret McIver Unm 75 Annuitant Greenock, Scotland
Agnes Robertson Widow 80 Greenock, Scotland
+ servant
I'd say it was very likely - especially living with a McIver. And we're back to Greenock, where "our" Robertson line starts.
William Wood Robertson was christened in Greenock on 29 Aug 1821, son of Archibald Robertson and Margaret Boyd, who were married in Greenock on 15 Feb 1819. One sister, Mary Dow Robertson, chr. Greenock, 16 Jan 1820.
Looking for a possible birth for Archibald, I found an Archibald Robertson chr. in Greenock on 11 Aug 1794, son of William Robertson and Elizabeth Davidson. A possibility only - I hoped to find a Wood connection. (Margaret Boyd is presumably the dau of Thomas Boyd and Mary Dow chr. in Greenock on 26 Aug 1798.)
This Archibald Robertson is roughly the same age as the Archibald Robertson in Allan's family who married Agnes Hamilton in 1822.
While bearing in mind that Robertson is a far more common name than Molison (for example), it's probably worth doing a bit more digging here. However, the temperature outside is now over 30°c, the computer is in our bedroom under the skylight, and Roger Federer's match is about to start at Wimbledon, so excavations on my part will be continued later!
Rambler
-
Marriage of William Wood Robertson and Eleanor Crouchley Pendlebury 1848 December Liverpool Vol 20 Page192
Marriage of Thomas Boyd and Mary Dow 20/08/1781 Ardrossan, Ayr, Scotland (extracted record)
ps. on the IGI theres also the christening of a Margaret McIver on 18/02/1805 Middle or New Parish, Greenock - Parents David McIver and Jane Boyd (Jane Boyde who married David "McIves" was christened St Nicholas Liverpool 1776 according to an lds member submitted record, no parents mentioned; David was born 1772 St Nicholas)
If the above is the correct Margaret, her parents David McIver and Jane Boyd married in Liverpool 22/08/1797 (lds member submitted info), and David died in 1812 "Bay of Biscay, Atlantic Ocean, At sea"
ps. the David McIver was a convict/migrant ship operating from Liverpool in the 1800's - a shipping connection again, wonder if the David McIver above is anything to do with the ship, I have found a reference to a David McIver who was a partner in a shipping firm, but it was too late to be the above David if he died in 1812 - see link below
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/displayGuide.aspx?sid=24&mode=html&sorStr=&serStr=&pgeInt=&catStr=
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There is a David McIver, shipowner, on the 1871 and 1881 censuses, born Liverpool 24/08/1840, chr.21/11/1841, (according to member submitted lds submission), so I wonder if anyone will have more success than me at finding his parents to try and link him to the above David McIver who married in Liverpool. Feel sure they must be linked....
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This looks like David and parents in 1861, looks interesting ("Morrison" mentioned too)-
RG9/2684 Folio 56 Page 10
Liverpool Mount Pleasant (same area as Margaret McIver and Agnes Robertson)
Abercromby Square?
Charles McIver 48 Shipowner Scotland
Marianne 42 Scotland
David 20 Liverpool
John 18 Liverpool
Jane 15 Liverpool
Marianne 13 Scotland
Elizabeth 11 Scotland
Charles 10 Liverpool
Henry 8 Liverpool
William 4 Scotland
Edward 3 Liverpool
Charles Morrison Bro in Law 51 "farmer? from Australia" Scotland
+ 5 Servants
(theres a Charles McIver chr. 13/10/1798 Greenock, parents Jane Boyd and David McIver, and theres also a Charles McIver chr16/04/1812 with the same parents, so maybe the earlier one died? This would make the second Charles, the one above possibly.....)
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:D Just having a look at other explosions, after the "sample" in Australia, found an accidental ship collision that blew up Halifax. 1917.
In the book of remembrance is Elizabeth Robertson aged 5, father Duncan.
May not be "ours" but of possible interest so I've posted it.
http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/HalExpl.html
Lesanne.
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Hi Cat
Thre's an extracted record for a David McIver, with the following details:
Born 24 August 1840
Baptised: 21 Nov 1840 at Oldham Street Presbyterian, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Parents:
Father: CHARLES MC IVIER
Mother: MARY ANN MORRISON
(The baptismal year is one out from yours, but maybe one or another is a mistranscription).
A submited record shows a marriage of David to Annie RANKIN in 1863 in Bromborough, Wirral.
A separate submitted record has the full birth, baptism, and marriage details (with the baptismal year matching yours - 1841), adding a death on 1 September 1907 at Ambleside, Cumbria, and burial in Bromborugh, Wirral.
No siblings emerging on a batch search.
cheers
Paul
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Mary Ann Morrison shown in a submitted record on IGI as b 3 January 1818 Glasgow, Lanark, d 14 March 1901 (just missed the cenus :'()
Married 23 October 1839 (Of Everton, West Derby, Lancashire, England) to Charles MacIver.
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Hi Paul,
Just found the marriage of Charles McIver and Mary Ann Morrison, m. Everton, West Derby 23/10/1839. This is the Charles McIver, Shipowner on the 1861 posted earlier. Found 10 children too, for him!!! Mary Ann 1847, Elizabeth 1849 and William 1856 were born Rothesay, Bute. David 1840, Jane and John 1848, Charles 1850, Henry 1852, James 1853 and Edward 1857 were born St Peters Liverpool.
His parents are listed as David McIver and Jane Boyd (Sister to Margaret McIver then!)
CatOne
SNAP Paul! :)
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So while we're on this puzzle, how is Margaret McIver aunt to Eleanor Crouchley Robertson nee Pendlebury? Or is she aunt to WWR? Not found that connection yet.......
-
Thought for a moment that we were getting a little plebian, with an Annie Rankin appearing in the family.
Check out her family in 1861....8 servants, 8 visitors (including two from New Brunswick and one from Canada). Father is Robert Rankin b1802 Scotland, Merchant and Shipowner, mother Ann, born New Brunswick, St Andrews.
Here's the full hit (all living in Bromborough, Wirral)
Elizabeth Benbow abt 1842 Montgomeryshire, Wales Servant
Elizabeth Birch abt 1817 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Visitor
Elizabeth Faber abt 1841 Shropshire, England Visitor
Sampson Fell abt 1826 Yorkshire, England Butler
Allan Graham abt 1831 Scotland Visitor
Janet Hackney abt 1841 Scotland Visitor
Jane Jones abt 1826 Montgomeryshire, Wales Servant
Agnes Lawrie abt 1836 Scotland Servant
Mary Lawson abt 1833 Scotland Servant
Charlotte Mackay abt 1858 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Visitor
Dunlop Mackay abt 1854 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Visitor
Florence Mackay abt 1857 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Visitor
Mary McGhie abt 1816 Scotland Servant
Isabella McLaughlan abt 1841 Scotland Servant
Ann Rankin abt 1812 New Brunswick, St Andrews Wife
Ann Rankin abt 1842 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter
Robert Rankin abt 1802 Scotland Head
Robert Rankin Jr. abt 1831 New Brunswick, Northampton Visitor
Barbara Ritchie abt 1838 Canada Niece
Mary Taylor abt 1845 Cheshire, England Servant
Haven't we had a Mackie or Mackay?
cheers
Paul
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Only had a Charles Mackae/MacRae Robertson I think, son of George Robertson (sailmaker) and Mary Douglas. Dont think we found a family with that name.......yet...... :)......
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Still not sure how we can link these MacIvers and those Robertsons to ours - but a gut feeling tells me they are related to some degree! ::)
Paul
For what its worth, Robert Rankin Jnr is widowed by 1871, living in Toxteth, Liverpool (along with everyone else in this bleedin story!) and described as a Merchant Shipowner. No children.
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I think so too.
Just been looking on the BVRI and found the children of Elizabeth Davidson and William Robertson are -
Elisabeth 28/11/1792 Ardrossan
Archibald 06/08/1794 Greenock
Robert 29/07/1796 Greenock
William 04/09/1800 Greenock
Hamilton 02/01/1806 Greenock
Elisabeth 10/02/1808 chr. 21/02/1808 Greenock
Elisabeth (think this might be a duplicate of above because no birthdate, just chr. date of 21/02/1810)
Didn't one of our Robertsons married an Agnes Hamilton in the 1820's?
Still no nearer connecting this lot to our Robertsons though......will come back in morning and probably find its done :)
G'Nite
ps. John Robertson married Betsey Morrison in 1819 - could this be Mary Ann Morrison's aunt? 20 years difference in marriage too much for them to be sisters I would have thought. So could be aunt/niece or cousins?.......
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Cat you've been busy ;D
Archibald Robertson Jr (son of Archibald sr and Janet Moody) married Agnes Hamilton in Greenock, Renfrew on 22 Jul 1822. Agnes b 8 Jul 1797, daughter of John Hamilton and Isabella Gellie.
Can't remember where they fit in ???
Susan
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From an Ancestral File on the LDS site:
Charles MacIver died 31 December 1885, Malta, buried at Childwall, Liverpool.
His wife, Mary Ann Morrison:
Birth: 3 Jan 1818 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Death: 14 Mar 1901 Bournemouth, Dorset, England
Burial: Childwall, Liverpool, England
Mary's father: Daniel MORISON
Birth: 22 Jun 1794 Abbey, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Mary's mother: Margaret HALL Birth: 1789
Christening: 22 Mar 1789 Abbey, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Daniel's father: Daniel MORRISON
Birth: Abt. 1768 Abbey, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Daniel's mother: Agnes SMITH (is this our first Smith?) :)
Birth: Abt. 1772 Abbey, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Margaret Hall's father: James HALL
Birth: Abt. 1763 <Abbey, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland>
Margaret's mother: Elizabeth LOCHEAD
Birth: Abt. 1767 <Abbey, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland>
For Charles McIver...
Father David MacIver and Jane Boyd (as per CatOne's earlier post).
David MacIver's father was Charles MacIver, born 1730 Bay of Biscay; Charles' father was John Maciver born about 1704.
Of course this may be a wild goose chase!
Paul
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Cat you've been busy ;D
Archibald Robertson Jr (son of Archibald sr and Janet Moody) married Agnes Hamilton in Greenock, Renfrew on 22 Jul 1822. Agnes b 8 Jul 1797, daughter of John Hamilton and Isabella Gellie.
Can't remember where they fit in ???
Susan
Archibald Sr is Allan's ggrandfather - Archibald Jr is Allan's great-uncle.
I agree with Paul: this lot look as if they ought to belong - but how?
Rambler
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http://www.lib.unb.ca/archives/gr/gr_18.jpg is a typescript document giving details of the life of John Rankin, b1845 in New Brunswick and a prominent person in the life of Liverpool for may years.
The same website (University of New Brunswick Archives) includes a wealth of material about the Rankins, including this useful summary of the early trading activities:
In 1804, young Scottish entrepreneurs Allan Gilmour, John Pollok and Arthur Pollok joined forces to create Pollok and Gilmour Co., a Glasgow based import business specializing in timber. In 1812, they began overseas expansion, sending Alexander Rankin and James Gilmour to establish a base on the Miramichi, in New Brunswick. Beginning with a sawmill, offices and a house at Douglastown, Gilmour and Rankin Co. later established a shipbuilding yard and a second sawmill. From their initial foothold in the wilderness, they developed a highly successful business as timber merchant and ship builders.
It was the practice of the parent company to send promising employees to train with Gilmour and Rankin. In 1818, Robert Rankin, younger brother of Alexander Rankin, joined the company in Douglastown. In 1822, he began separate but similar operations in Saint John under the name of Robert Rankin and Company. In 1838, he returned to Scotland during a major restructuring of Pollok and Gilmour.
When James Gilmour returned to Scotland in 1840, a younger associate, Richard Hutchinson, became more active in Gilmour and Rankin. After the death of Alexander Rankin in 1852, Hutchinson was the sole resident partner until about 1870 when the business, mills and lands were handed over to him by the Glasgow partners.
http://www.lib.unb.ca/archives/gr/description.html
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Robert Rankin, 1801 - 1870
From The Dictionary of Canadian Biography
RANKIN, ROBERT, timber merchant and shipowner; b. 31 May 1801 at Mearns, Renfrewshire, Scotland, son of James Rankin and Helen Ferguson; d. 3 June 1870 at Bromborough Hall in Cheshire, England.
Robert Rankin’s family were prosperous farmers in the Mearns parish. Between 1807 and 1813 Rankin received a good general education and a grounding in book-keeping at the Mearns school under James Jackson, an able dominie in the best Scottish tradition, many of whose pupils were to become business leaders.
In May 1815, after a few months in the counting-house of John Wilson, a Glasgow merchant, Rankin joined the office staff of the timber-importing firm, Pollok, Gilmour, and Company, at the thriving new port of Grangemouth on the Forth estuary, terminal of the Forth and Clyde Canal. The firm had been founded in Glasgow in 1804 by Allan Gilmour Sr and the brothers John and Arthur Pollok, also natives of Mearns. Rankin’s elder brother, Alexander*, had served it since 1806, and in 1812 had gone to Miramichi in New Brunswick to found the branch-firm of Gilmour, Rankin, and Company. It was through his brother’s influence that Robert Rankin had secured entry to the firm in the difficult post-war years of recession, and his rise was rapid. On 15 Dec. 1816 he was transferred to the head office in Glasgow, where he soon gained the approval of Arthur Pollok through his competence as book-keeper and accountant, and was appointed cashier of the firm at age 16.
By this time Pollok, Gilmour, and Company, through its Miramichi operations, had become the leading British firm in the North American timber trade. These operations had originally been planned by Allan Gilmour as a means of beating Napoleon’s Continental System, which prohibited lumber exports from the Baltic to Britain. Now the firm owned more than 50 vessels engaged in the shipment of lumber and employed 700 men in the forests and sawmills of New Brunswick. The scale of these operations increased steadily as the trade boomed, and in 1818 Robert Rankin was selected by Gilmour to go out to the Miramichi branch to gain experience in the colonies.
{continued}
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{Continued}
Young Rankin was clearly regarded as a “coming man” in the firm, and a possible future partner. Assiduous in his labours in the Miramichi office, he soon gained a reputation as a skilful administrator and a shrewd bargainer with timber contractors. In 1820–21 he made a “prospecting trip” to the Saint John River to assess the timber of the area and recommended to the head office that another branch-firm be founded at Saint John.
During his years in Glasgow and on the Miramichi, Rankin’s life was one of “Spartan self-discipline,” according to his nephew John Rankin, the historian of Pollok, Gilmour, and Company, who examined his personal expenditure book. In Glasgow he had lived carefully in cheap lodgings, but gave regular church donations and gifts to charity. He had also sacrificed on clothing and food to take French lessons, realizing he would be working in the British North American colonies. In his first years in New Brunswick he lived frugally and saved hard. Although he received only £45 from his deceased father’s estate in November 1817 after providing for his mother, by the end of 1822 he had accumulated nearly £400 in savings to his credit in the firm’s books, a sum which represented practically all of his annual salary for four years’ service on the Miramichi.
Rankin’s career as an independent entrepreneur began early in 1822 when Pollok, Gilmour, and Company decided to set up the branch-firm in Saint John that Rankin had recommended. He had made an arduous overland journey from the Miramichi to Saint John in the spring of 1821 to transfer his capital in bullion form, but on arrival decided that the time was not quite ripe for commencing operations. A year later, however, he judged correctly that there would be a new timber boom and set up the firm of Robert Rankin and Company in Saint John. Within ten years, by his shrewdness in purchasing timber and dealing in imports of foodstuffs and lumbering stores, he made this branch-firm the most prosperous and successful of the Pollok, Gilmour, and Company enterprises, which also flourished in Bathurst and Chatham, N.B., Montreal, Quebec, Restigouche County, and on the Miramichi. Unlike other branch-firm managers, Rankin had a completely free hand to conduct the Saint John operation as he saw fit. He became, in fact, the guiding intelligence in the colonies of Pollok, Gilmour, and Company, a vast concern which by 1838 operated 130 vessels in the timber trade – making it the largest British shipowning firm – and employed no fewer than 15,000 men in its sawmills, on its wharves, and in the forests; it owned as well 2,000 horses and oxen for draught purposes. In the early 1830s the firm shipped out annually over 300 cargoes of timber. At Saint John Rankin had added to his lumbering concerns the building of ships and the importing of textiles, foodstuffs, and building supplies on a large scale – reputedly for more than half of the numerous merchants in the town. His success in Saint John was so great that by the early 1830s he was even influencing affairs in the head office in Glasgow.
John Rankin, who knew his uncle well, ascribed his success to “his perfect mastery of figures and of book-keeping, his love of order, quickness of decision, close eye on the leading markets and articles of produce and the fact that he was not only a good buyer, but, what few men are, a wise and competent seller, who would not regret if the buyer had a profit.” It also appears that Rankin had a gift for clarity of thought and expression. His business letters were noted for their terseness and precision.
By 1830 Robert Rankin was wealthy and regarded as the leading shipowner and timber merchant of Saint John, but he continued to live frugally and unostentatiously. On 17 March 1829 he married Ann, daughter of John Strang, a prominent Scottish merchant of St Andrews, N.B., where, as in Saint John, commercial life was largely dominated by Scots. By 1837 he had prospered to such an extent that he was contemplating retiring, returning to Scotland, and purchasing a landed estate where he could take up livestock breeding, a pursuit which had interested him since his youth as a farmer’s son. This possibility was easily within his reach financially, since he had now considerable investments outside the firm, in British railways, mining, insurance companies, and shipping.
His plans were altered by a crisis in the affairs of the firm in Glasgow in 1837, following a bitter quarrel among the founders. Since all parties considered that only Rankin could settle the dispute and take the leadership of the over-all concern, he left Saint John in the summer of 1838 with his wife and family. In Scotland he speedily arranged to buy out Gilmour for £150,000 and to reconstruct Pollok, Gilmour, and Company. Rankin, his brother Alexander, and Allan Gilmour* Jr of the Quebec branch now became the controlling partners. At Rankin’s instigation, the head office was moved from Glasgow to Liverpool, to take advantage of the greater commercial opportunities there, particularly in the lumber trade, and a new subsidiary firm was established under the name of Rankin, Gilmour, and Company. In order to employ its large fleet fully in the winter months, branch houses were opened in New Orleans, La, and Mobile, Ala, where the company entered the rapidly expanding cotton trade.
{continued}
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{continued}
As in New Brunswick, Rankin’s business acumen ensured the firm’s success in this new milieu. The diversification into cotton brought great profits, and by 1851 he was a member of the Dock Committee of Liverpool, the “inner ring” of influential merchants and shipowners. In addition to owning a fine residence in Liverpool, he had purchased the large estate of Bromborough Hall in Cheshire, where he engaged in cattle breeding and other rural pursuits. In 1857 he toured Canada and the United States with his family and was accorded what has been described as “an almost Royal reception” in many places, particularly in New Brunswick. Until his death in 1870, he remained in active control of the Pollok-Gilmour-Rankin “empire.” His prestige in Liverpool can be judged by his election in January 1862 as chairman of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, described as “the highest honour Liverpool has to bestow.” In 1865 he set up his son James as a country gentleman, buying for him two large estates in Herefordshire.
In his later years Rankin’s public benefactions were numerous. He funded mechanics’ institutes, temperance societies, and orphans’ homes, and he contributed several large sums for the laying of the first Atlantic cable in the 1850s and 1860s. Early in 1869 his health began to fail, and despite a long Mediterranean trip the decline continued. The death of his daughter, drowned in Menai Strait, Wales, in August 1869, was a crushing blow to Rankin, who had already lost four of his seven children through childhood illnesses. He died the following June.
Rankin was a characteristic Scottish entrepreneur of his period, utterly devoted to his business with few cultural or public interests. His only outside interests were livestock breeding and the pursuits of a country gentleman in the last phase of his life. It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that except in matters pertaining to trade prospects, he was narrow in outlook. According to John Rankin, he was taciturn and far from sociable. Yet his industry, commercial percipience, financial ability, and organizational capacity, shown in the colonies and later in Liverpool, mark him as one of the outstandingly successful businessmen of his time. The Canadian timber trade and the New Brunswick shipbuilding industry owed much of the amazing progress they made between 1820 and 1850 to his sagacity and tenacity.
by David S Macmillan
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William Robertson and Elizabeth Davidson are possible parents of Archibald, given that he called his oldest son William Wood Robertson, but I'd be happier if we could find a connection to that middle name Wood. And then all we need to do is establish a solid connection with "our" Robertsons....
Will work on this tomorrow. (Before tropical heat or Wimbledon drives me away from the computer!)
Here's a thought: it's just about possible that the Archibald who married Margaret Boyd ALSO married Agnes Hamilton - children with MB in 1820 and 1821, then marriage to AH in 1822. No proof whatsoever to back this up, though...
Rambler
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Still mining the Dictionary here: this (extract :)) from a profile of William Ritchie (NB Barbara Ritchie in household of Robert Rankin in Bromborough):
In 1837–38 an acrimonious dispute had arisen among the partners in Pollok, Gilmour which resulted in Gilmour Sr’s withdrawal from the firm in 1838. The dispute cut across close family ties: John Pollok, Robert Rankin*, Gilmour Jr, and Ritchie had all married daughters of New Brunswick merchant John Strang
(written by Nicholas J Morgan).
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Carleton Sentinel Newspaper Feb 12, 1898
Robert Rankin Dead
The death of Robert Rankin occurred recently at Liverpool, Eng. He was at one time in New Brunswick, head of the firm of Rankin, Pollock, Gilmore & Co. the most prominent lumber dealers in this province. Many years ago he removed to Liverpool of which place he was one of he wealthiest citizens. Mr. Frank Rankin is a brother and the late Mrs. Robert Brown was a sister of the deceased and Dr.Rankin, of Woodstock, is a nephew.
from http://www.rootsweb.com/~nbcarlet/newspage30.htm
Ah well, better get some kip!
cheers
Paul
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Ewing - Orr - Leckie - Buchanan
I've been playing around with the 2 Ewing lines connected to our family, but can't make them link up. Can anyone find something I've missed?
Branch A (Orr-Ewing)
Allan's aunt Helen Robertson married James Ewing. James was the son of William Ewing and Susanna Orr. His older brother Archibald became Sir Archibald Orr-Ewing, 1st baronet, and Archibald's descendants used the surname Orr-Ewing with a hyphen. Other descendants of William and Susanna frequently used Orr as a middle name, but stuck to the surname Ewing.
Susanna Orr was chr. 1 May 1785 in Paisley, dau of John Orr and Agnes Anderson.
William Ewing's birthdate is given in a Gilmour family history at http://homepages.luc.edu/~pgilmou/familyhistory.pdf as 10 Feb 1773, but there is no entry for him in the IGI. Can anyone verify this?
Rambler
I think this is the same Gilmour line that the Rankin family is linked to commercially, but I have real problems reading and searching through that pdf.
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So while we're on this puzzle, how is Margaret McIver aunt to Eleanor Crouchley Robertson nee Pendlebury? Or is she aunt to WWR? Not found that connection yet.......
It's Agnes Robertson who is listed as Eleanor's aunt, but I presume she's really WWR's aunt, married to a brother of Archibald. (Agnes is staying with Margaret McIver on the 1871 census.) I'm still trying to find a likely-looking marriage between a Robertson and an Agnes, but haven't had any luck so far.
Rambler
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Ooooppps, you're right Rambler, just checked back at census entries. Think the sun affected my brain yesterday :)
Will carry on trying to find Robertson connection on BVRI tonight (at work today :( )
Paul, your Rankin/Pollock firms are mentioned a number of times in that Gilmour link Rambler posted, including the branch in Mobile, Ala, so you've definitely found a connection there. I see what you mean about it being hard reading though, all 181 pages!! :)
CatOne
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Gilmour, Rankin, etc:
I've ploughed through some of the Gilmour history, and as I understand it, Allan Gilmour who married Isabella Buchanan Ewing was the son of James Gilmour and Clementia Stuart (which explains nicely why their 8th child was called Agnes Stuart Gilmour). James was a younger brother of Allan Gilmour, founder of the firm Pollok, Gilmour & Co, and was active in the firm. Allan and James' parents were Allan Gilmour and Elizabeth Pollok.
So we have an indirect connection between our Robertson family and the Gilmours via the Ewings.
I've never researched a trade empire before!
Rambler
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My pdf reader kept crashing, Cat!
I know some time back Liverpool Annie counselled us about not confusing the two lines (the shipowners and the merchants and chandlers) but I think there's a link somewhere awaiting discovery!
Gilmour, Rankin, etc:
I've never researched a trade empire before!
Rambler
Makes me grateful for all the miners and farm labourers in my own tree!
As Al Crighton said, some time back:
There should be a special prize for the first person to find an Ag. Lab. in this tree
Not sure anyone could claim the prize yet! :)
Paul
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I think we're bound to find connections, because these are families from the same social circles, with the same business interests - on a purely material level, marriages are to their mutual benefit. Big shipowners like the Dunbars are probably a cut above our families, although I think a smaller one would happily ally himself with a prosperous merchant or chandler.
I'm still hoping we can find that Robertson-McIver connection, because if it does exist, it might help push the Robertsons back another generation or so.
Rambler
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Boyd-Robertson
OK - I think I've found a connection, but still don't know if they tie in to Allan Robertson's family. Here goes:
Thomas Boyd married Mary Dow 20 Aug 1781 Ardrossan, Ayr. Their children:
Helen Boyd - chr. Greenock, 23 Oct 1787
Thomas Boyd - chr. Greenock, 16 May 1790
Jean Boyd - chr. Greenock, 14 3 1792
Mary Ann Boyd - chr. Greenock, 20 Aug 1794
James Boyd - chr. Greenock, 28 Jun 1796
Margaret Boyd - b. Greenock, 26 Aug 1798
Agnes Boyd - chr. Greenock, 31 Mar 1801
Bethia Boyd - chr. Greenock, 15 Jun 1803
Margaret Boyd - right kind of age and birthplace to be the one who married Archibald Robertson in Greenock on 15 Feb 1819.
Agnes Boyd - an Agnes Boyd married John Robertson in Greenock on 19 Oct 1824. This would make her a good candidate to be William Wood Robertson's aunt Agnes Robertson on the census entry. Age and birthplace fit.
Questions!
1. Are Archibald and John brothers? Agnes would still be WWR's aunt even if the 2 Robertsons are unrelated!
2. Are these Robertsons part of Allan's family? ??? ??? ???
3. Is Thomas Boyd related to David McIver's wife, Jane Boyd?
Rambler
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Will have to keep digging, we'll get there in the end :)
On a different subject, does anyone speak Spanish?? The reason I ask is I've found an article about the Hamilton families connection to the Canary Islands....it seems to be about our Hamilton family, including Lewis Gellie Hamilton, the brother of Agnes Hamilton (who married Archibald Robertson Jr in 1822). It refers to Greenock and Lords/Ladys/Earls etc, particularly Lady Emma Hamilton (Lord Nelson's lady I believe)!!! Another famous connection?? (it seems to be saying that the Hamiltons can trace their lineage back to James 11 King of Scotland, I think)
I'll also put this in as it brings us back to the Orr's and Morrisons (if we'd already got it, sorry!) -
Agnes Hamilton b. 1797 Parents John Hamilton and Isabella Gellie
John Hamilton's parents Agnes Hyndman and Mary Orr m. 02/12/1737 Inverkip, Renfrew
Mary Orr's parents Thomas Orr b.c1688 Inverkip and Janet Morrison b.c1692 Inverkip, Renfrew
Will look forward to a translation of the article :) -
http://serra-hamilton.com/documento.htm
CatOne
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An interesting article about how the poor Emma Lyon became Lady Emma Hamilton when she met with William Hamilton b.1730, English Ambassador of Naples and uncle of famous painter of the time Charles Greville (still looking for connection to "our" Hamiltons, difficult seeing as the article that looks like it suggests a link is in Spanish!) -
http://www.batguano.com/Xladyhamilton.html
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Going back to Greenock and the sugar refining industry (an Orr Ewing is a member of the The Sugar Refinery Association, and there is a George Robertson working at a sugar refinery), this site gives a picture of how Greenock was back in the 1800's -
http://www.mawer.clara.net/history.html
I wonder if this is how Charlotte came to meet our Allan Robertson, her family being plantation owners, his being in shipping, etc......the two industries must have worked close together. From what I've read, Bristol, Newcastle, Glasgow/Greenock and Limehouse London were the main locations for ship building/importing goods from overseas/plantations, and looking at the censuses you can see this is where there is a concentration of the families we have been looking at, certainly I've noticed this with the Robertson's......
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Well, this is what Babelfish makes of the letter (don't you just love those cheap translators!):
This it is an interesting and complete article of Maria Cheek Santana on the Hamilton Family, published the 24 of May of the 2003 in the supplement "Press" of the newspaper "the Day" of Santa Cruz de Tenerife.
The Hamilton family, of British origin, was based in the Canary Islands from year 1819. First of this last name that arrived at the Islands was Lewis Gellie Hamilton, who came to work in the company Gilbert Stuart Bruce, of that with time one would become partner. On 1837 she founded the Company Brushes, Hamilton and Co, that was dissolved in 1878, seven years later, in 1885, she is created under the denomination of Hamilton and Compañi'a - name that still shows this company at the present time.
Lewis Gellie Hamilton had been born in 1798 in the Scottish locality of Greenock, in the county of Renfrew, in the family conformed by John Hamilton and Isabella Gellie whose father was the Captain Lewis Gellie, being as well grandson of Archibald Hamilton and Agnes Hyndman. This branch was descending direct, by this paternal line, of the monarch James II of Scotland, that would be the ninth great-grandfather of Lewis, to the salary newlywed the daughter of that king, princess Mary Stewart, with James Hamilton, first Lord Hamilton de Cadzow. Concretely, Lewis Gellie Hamilton is eighth grandson of James, first Count of Arran, one of the children of the mentioned Lord.
James Hamilton was born towards 1415, contracting first nuptials in 1440 with Euphemia Graham, countess of Strathearn, and, when enviudar, he married in 1474 with Princess Mary Stewart, daughter of king James II of Scotland and Marie D'Egmont. This marriage had like fruit three children: David, James and Elizabeth Hamilton. Once layout, to approximately, the original trunk from which comes island the Hamilton family, we happen to study to the different figures that we have mentioned.
Sir William Hamilton, British diplomat, archaeologist and vulcanólogo born in Scotland in 1730, whose collection of antiques acquired in the exploration that carried out in Pompeya was sold to the British Museum in 1772, were ambassador in Naples and author, between 1774 and 1800, of several works of which étrusques, greques ET romaines (1766-67) and Mount Vesuvius emphasize Antiquités (1772). Sir William, fourth son of Lord Archibald Hamilton, married, in 1758, with Catherine Barlow - daughter of the English parliamentarian Hugh Barlow -, and after enviudar, it contracted marriage with Emily Lyon in 1791, which later would happen to historical annals through its loving relation with Lord Horacio Nelson. To these biographical details we must add previously that Sir William was descending direct of Elizabeth Hamilton, already mentioned, which would turn to Lord Hamilton the seventh great-grandfather of Sir William Hamilton and eighth great-grandfather of Lewis Gellie Hamilton. This way, Sir William appears like eighth uncle of Lewis Gellie, and its wife, Emma Hamilton, eighth policy of the own Lewis would be aunt, circumstance that does not stop being quite surprising knowing the entailment of which outside its lover with the history of the island of Tenerife.
Emma Hamilton, as a single person Emily Lyon, was born in 1765 in Nesse, Great Neston, County of Cheshire, England daughter of Henry Lyon, blacksmith of profession and Mary Kidd, passed an adolescence and first maturity under the pretended name of Emma Hart, immersed in an excessive and lujuriosa life in London. Well-known lover of the aristocrat Charles Greville, this one sent it to Naples with his uncle Sir William Hamilton, where Emma became dancer, who delighted to the guests of Sir William with dances inspired by classic elements, Goethe that in an occasion was watching of its dances wrote "Its putting in scene is not looked like anything of which I have seen previously, express She a variety of wonderful transformations, a pose after another one without rest". In 1791 one please married with Sir William, happening to be Lady Emma Hamilton and gaining Reina Maria Carolina of Naples. The intimate relation with admiral Nelson began in 1798, and after the return from both to England, in January of 1801 had like fruit a daughter, of Horacia name. Sir William falls ill and in 1803 it passes away leaving him a pension annual of 800 pounds. In 1805 admiral Nelson passes away in the battle of Trafalgar. In a codicil of its testament, Nelson asks the British government who provides it in his absence, which did not happen, and to the death of the English hero Emma it declares themselves in bankruptcy and it is arrested in 1813 by debts. The following year he happened to take refuge to the locality of Calais, in France, where soon after he would finish his days.
(Continued)
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(Continue)
Another member and important figure within the Hamilton family at global level appear in the History of the United States. Alexander Hamilton, whom the light in 1755 in the Caribbean Island of Nevis saw, was one of the children del marriage of James Hamilton and Rachela Lavien. Still young, with hardly 23 years, one married with Elizabeth Schuyler, with which he would procreate 8 children. He promoted artillery captain and, later, between 1777 and 1781, held the position of secretary of General George Washington, who to the chosen being first president of the United States designated first secretary to him of the Treasure of the United States. Alexander happened to annals of North American History also being the founder of the National Bank. Its death, occurred the 2 of Julio of 1804 in the course of a duel with vice-president Aaron Burr, in Weehawken (New Jersey), - motivated to the read salary Burr declarations of Hamilton in his against published in a Burr newspaper instead of being remembered by his political race he happened to History like the assassin of Alexander Hamilton.
The relation of kinship between Lewis Gellie Hamilton and Alexander Hamilton is something more distant than previously reviewed, although both have like common ancestor to Gilbert de Hamilton, first Hamilton that is known - been born to date before 1272- and Isabel FitzRandolph, their wife, who they had by son to Walter Fitztgilbert. The only thing which it is known with certainty of this personage that it passed away in 1345, having has been contracted marriage with Mary Gordon, fruit of which was born 3 children: John Hamilton de Ballencrief, David Fitzwalter de Hamilton and Walter Hamilton. The second of them, David, is the direct ancestor of Lewis Gellie Hamilton and Sir William Hamilton, being known by to be named Baron of Cadzow by the king of Scotland David II, to have participated in the battle of Halidon Hill, in Durham - where prisoner in 1346-y was taken being one of the leaders who helped that outside crowned Robert III. The third son of Gilbert de Hamilton, Walter, is the ancestor of Alexander Hamilton, señera figure in the beginnings of American history since we have verified.
This accumulation of data we can yet affirm that Lewis Gellie Hamilton, founder of canary the Hamilton branch, and the treasurer Alexander Hamilton was prime in fourteenth degree and Sir William Hamilton and Emma Hamilton were uncles in thirteenth degree of Alexander Hamilton. Another Important politician of the great Hamilton Family was George Hamilton Gordon, British Prime minister between 1852 and 1855 and founding one of the Athenian Society. George Hamilton Gordon was born in Edimburgo the 28 of January of 1784 was the older son of George Gordon, Lord Haddo, and Charlotte Baird and twelfth grandson of James I Stewart King of Scotland and Joan Beaufort grandparents of Mary Stewart wife of Lord mentioned Hamilton previously, married with the daughter of John James Hamilton, Marquess of Abercorn and of Catherine Copley, Catherine Elizabeth Hamilton, novena granddaughter of James Hamilton, First Earl of Arran. George Hamilton Gordon was great friend of Reina Victory, which in all its trips to Scotland lodged in Haddo House the residence of the Family Hamilton Gordon in Scotland. Lewis Gellie Hamilton is uncle in tenth degree of British prime minister George Hamilton Gordon and eighth uncle of Catherine Elizabeth Hamilton, his wife. Sir William Hamilton is uncle eleventh of George Hamilton Gordon and eighth uncle of its wife. The American politician Alexander Hamilton is uncle in sixteenth degree of British prime minister George Hamilton Gordon and fifteenth of his wife Catherine Elizabeth Hamilton
Perhaps in summary, we can conclude that four personalities summit in our History were relatives and, although seems surprising, they themselves never knew it. The genealogy is a science that causes that the families meet, find its bonds and their roots historical, and that people who never we thought that they could have no connection finally are distant relatives. They knew that in the Canary Islands the Wise person is a great number of descending families of Alfonso X, of whom come almost all the real houses as well? This circumstance would place to an elevated number of canary families in relation of kinship with the European Royalty, although this fact is one more only between the many connections between important personages and historical and families connected in our islands, since, really, the humanity does not stop being a great family.
Wish I could translate it from the Spanish!
Paul
PS Great find, Cat. And great connections, MR - I think you are right, we are encountering the power of elites, connections and inter-family communities of power!
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I must say thank you for the sugar refineries link. My gr gr gr grandfather is listed as being from hamburg - and a sugar house worker - both in the greenock and later liverpool areas. It really helps me understand his reasoning for coming to Scotland, and in fact there are three wills listed on the site which may help me understand the original spelling of their family name!!
Thanks
Tom
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Glad it was of some use to you, Tom :)
Wow, Paul, thought it looked as if it would be interesting but didn't realise it would give as much detail as that. We're lucky that you have connections in the right places to translate!! :)
Just the Robertson/McIver/Boyd connection to solve now......although MR will probably sort that one for us :)
Catherine
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Robertson-McIver connection?
MacIver - Assistant-Surgeon James Robertson - 4th Punjab Rifles - died 11th December 1869.
Grave at Sialkote - "Sacred to the memory of Asst Surgeon James R. McIver IVth Punjab Rifles, who died at Sealkote on the XIth Decr. 1869 aged 26 years. eldest son of Evander McIver Esqr. Scowrie House Sutherlandshire. Deeply regretted by his brother officers and all who knew him. He is not dead but sleepeth."
Memorial at Scourie Cemetery, Edrachillis, Sutherland, Scotland - "Erected by officers 4th Punjab Infantry, in memory of James Robertson McIver, MD, Assistant Surgeon, died Sealkot, 11 Dec 1869, age 28.
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Found this too, on IGI - still no connection to "our" Robertsons though, but obviously the families had several links over the years -
James Robertson McIver b.23/01/1817 Stornoway, Ross and Cromarty - Parents - Catharine Robertson and Lewis MacIver
This is the one mentioned by Nessie -
James Robertson MacIver b.30/01/1841 chr. 24/02/1841 Dingwall, Ross and Comarty - Parents - Evander MacIver and Mary MacDonald
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Wow, Paul, thought it looked as if it would be interesting but didn't realise it would give as much detail as that. We're lucky that you have connections in the right places to translate!! :)
Catherine
Hi Catherine
Can't claim any credit - the translation was courtesy of http://www.altavista.com/ and their 'Babelfish' software translation service. As you can see, its a bit rudimentary, but you can usually glean the sense of things!
cheers
Paul
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Hi All
Feel like I'm tied up in knots here - bet we're all feeling the same! :)
Anyway, I found this link while Googling for I can't remember what now:
http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/AngloScots/R.pdf
Forgive me if you've already seen it, but it seems to list a lot of Anglo Scots Robertson marriages - including Hugh Robertson and Elizabeth Woods.
I just haven't the mental capacity to see which of the names fit into our story - there are certainly Caldwells there (which I dimly remember we've mentioned!).
cheers
Paul
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Just the Robertson/McIver/Boyd connection to solve now......although MR will probably sort that one for us :)
Catherine
Thanks for the vote of confidence!
I'll have another go at them in the morning - unless our US/Canadian/Ozzie/NZ friends get there first....
Rambler
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I'm 'plum tuckered out' too, MR - Goodnight!
Paul
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I'm pretty sure this is connected! - Elizabeth Godolphin is named in the web site below....plus some other names seem to work::P
Williams father - James Burslem
Williams mother - Elizabeth Godolphin
Anns father - William Burslem,
Anns mother - Mary Curzon m. 1753
Ann Burslem b 1763 Packington Stafford England
Thomas Molison MD d.28 Nov 1835 Edinburgh
m. 30 Oct 1786 Brechin Angus
children
John Molison - Male Christening 13 Oct 1787 Brechin Angus Scotland
Ann Molison - Female Christening 24 Feb 1789 Brechin Angus Scotland
Christina Fergusia Molison - Female Christening 19 Mar 1792 Brechin Angus Scotland
Mary Curson Molison - Female Christening 19 Mar 1794 Brechin Angus Scotland
Thomas Molison - Male Christening 30 Oct 1796 Brechin Angus Scotland
I was Googling for Hamiltons and came up with this ::) ::) ::)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~ancestorsofcedric/family/index.htm
Looked very interesting to me!!
Annie :P :P
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Hi All!
I have only just started to read, all of your work, wow, I have only read the last 2 pages and I am exhausted.
If you need to know anything about, the gilmours and polloks, I have researched for 2 yrs, a parallel family of polloks in eaglesham, renfrew, and had to search the "rich" ones as well.
but I haven't got back past the 1770s .
The hamiltons owned most of the lands there and the gilmours bought it when the hamiltons went a little broke after pursuing a very expensive venture, that failed.
the "poor" polloks, I really were researching were all farmers of quality, and they produced the great Scottish poet Robert Pollok , who died at the age of 27, having achieved great heights.
The Molisons, I researched for only 3 hours, is only a dim memory, I am afraid. I will try and see if I can find where it is in all your postings, before, I make any comment.
But I did love the pollok/ Gilmour family, I will post a poem if you like. about the fight they had. and it was the "poor" Pollok that wrote it in the mid 1800s,[ not the famous robert, but a cousin].
one gilmour gave up and sold up and moved to Ireland. others stayed in Canada. One being the richest, in a particular state over there.
kenjo :)
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Canadian Virtual War Memorial
http://198.103.134.2/content/collections/books/bww1/ww1492.jpg
http://198.103.134.2/content/collections/books/bww2/ww2551.jpg
Annie
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This is the poem written mid 1800s, by Andrew Pollok, telling the story about the rich Polloks/ Gilmours from renfrew and Glasgow. Hope you all enjoy. ;D
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That's great, kenjo! Love the term 'smicky codger'! :)
(Altavista currently don't offer Scots - Engish translations so a lot of it went over my head :))
cheers
Paul
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Are the polloks, really part of this, I do have certs, that cover a couple of the rich ones, in eaglesham, this is right next to mearns, they all used to walk, to school, across the fields.
the poem covers, the parting of the Gilmours, and Polloks over the Allan Gilmour feeling ,the polloks had, built a mansion,at Broom, out of business funds, and not, shared, the ownership. They were the best of friends, they would live with each other in the early years, after one of their many voyages, one would return to live with the other.
Then the Polloks secretly built this mansion, and they fell out.So the property had to be valued, and worked out who did actually own it. that was what the poem was about. a tongue in cheek view from the locals.
I still haven't worked out which families really count, here.
I have stuff on the Hamiltons, not much but, I feel from the little I read, in the last postings you know more than I!.
regards
kenjo
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Hi kenjo
You've probably gathered that we have all contributed snippets here and there - like finding pieces of a jigsaw puzzle under the table!
The Robertson line we began with hasn't been firmly linked to the Robertson family who seem to merge at some point into the Rankin - Gilmour et al story.
I don't think anyone could have predicted the direction of this thread when it began - its been a wonderful roller-coaster journey, though!
The Challenge has shifted focus so many times (inevitably) and the current impetus is to discover a link between the two Robertson families (although I've lost sight of why!)
But hey - its fun! :)
cheers
Paul
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We have a rather indirect link between the Pollok/Gilmour family and the original Robertson line we started with: a grandson of Allan Gilmour and Elizabeth Pollok (I keep typing that wrong!) married Isabella Buchanan Ewing, whose brother James married Helen Robertson, aunt of our starting-point Allan Robertson.
However, there's a second Robertson family, who also originate in Greenock and finish up around Liverpool, who seem to have McIver/Rankin connections, and we're trying to establish whether they are related to "our" Robertson line or not.
There are too many interesting branches in this family! ;D
Rambler
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Allan Gilmour married Isabella Buchanan Ewing 3/9/1850 at Dunoon, she was born9/10/1823 Glasgow the eldest daughter of William Ewing of Ardvullen, near Dunoon.
They moved into Hazleden house, not long after the death of Allans Uncle. The estate came to about 16,500 acres.,
They then built Eaglesham House to be more central.
They had the following children
1. Allan Gilmour, 1851-1917.
2. James Gilmour, 1853, he owned huge estates in California.
died22 nov 1881. he left everything to his aunt.
MRS HELEN RANKIN MUIR.
but she gave this all up to give it to James's sister Isabella.
3. William Ewing Gilmour 21/5/1854 devon.
He joined his Uncles firm John Orr Ewing& Co. Turkey Red Dyers,. he did many great things, and ended up owning more than 300,000 arcres. he died 31/1/1924 in Glasgow. his movable estate worth 238,421.pounds.
4. John Alexander Gilmour 2/8/1855 Hazleden.
died 10/1/1884 eaglesham
5. Susan Ewing Gilmour 23/1/1857 Hazleden
6. Arthur Archibald Gilmour 22/5/1859 Hazleden died about 1898.
7. Isabella Buchanan Gilmour. 9/11/1861 Eaglesham House.
died Edinburgh 15/3/1900
8. Agnes Stuart Gilmour 26/7/1863 Eaglesham House possibly married a Mr Marshall aug 1898.
9. Edward Gilmour, 29/7/1865 Eaglesham House, only lived 14 days.
Helen Rankin Gilmour, b 1839? daughter of James Gilmour b14/10/1782. and Clementia Stewart b. 1799 kenmore Perthshire.
married in Polnoon Lodge 29/8/1861,
to Lieutenant Joseph Johnstone Muir, later a Major in the Madras Staff Corps, she was wiidowed, by1878- 1882.
she died 19/8/1919.Moffat.
It is interesting that he was a Major in the Madras Staff Corps,
because when I did the research for a Smith who had the same job.
modified.......John Smith, Major General, Bengal Staff Corps.
his mum was a Molison.[i don't know if that is similar] ::)
I don't know if any of this is relevant, I can't follow whats going on.
ssssssso I'll stop there. incase it is all a waste.
That was all courtesy of Alistair R Hill.
regards
kenjo
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Lots of familiar surnames cropping up there Kenjo - thanks!
In one posting you've got
Ewing
Gilmour
Rankin
Orr
Marshall
Muir
Molison
Almost the full pack! :)
cheers
Paul
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I've chased my tail with the "other" Robertsons, but can't see how they're linked to the McIvers, and can't find a link to Allan Robertson's family. Here's what I have:
Thomas Boyd m. Mary Dow in Ardrossan, Ayr on 20 Aug 1781.
Their daughter Margaret (b. Greenock, 26 Aug 1798) m. Archibald Robertson in Greenock on 15 Feb 1819.
Another daughter Agnes (b. Greenock, 31 Mar 1801) m. John Robertson in Greenock on 19 Oct 1824.
Are Archibald and John brothers?
Archibald and Margaret had 3 children:
Mary Dow Robertson - b. Greenock, 16 Jan 1820
William Wood Robertson - b. Greenock, 29 Aug 1821
Thomas Boyd Robertson - chr. Liverpool, 06 Jun 1824
William Wood Robertson m. Eleanor Crouchley Pendlebury and had 6 children:
Alan Robertson - b. Birkenhead, 1851
Archibald McIver Robertson - b. Ireland, c1856
Robert Pendlebury Robertson - b. Ireland, c1858; d. Liverpool, 1881
Sarah L Robertson - b. Liverpool, c1860
Agnes Boyd Robertson - b. Liverpool, c1866; m. William Baddeley Pedder 1895
Margaret M Robertson - b. Liverpool, c1868
I've no idea why Archibald's middle name is McIver, or why William's is Wood. Any helpful suggestions welcome, otherwise I'm giving up on this lot for the time being!
Rambler
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Could be mothers mothers maiden name and or mothers grandmothers maiden name.
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We need to be carefully when trying to link up our Robertsons:
There are Robertsons in many parts of Scotland with a concentration in Dundee and Perth. It is the fifth most common name in Scotland. The present chief is Alexander Haldane Robertson and there is a Clan Museum between Blair Atholl and Struan.
from rampantscotland website
Mind we all enjoy a challenge!
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That's a fair point, JoT - and although I was starting to realise it was common, I hadn't appreciated quite how common! Maybe if we had a Scottish Top Ten on Berlin-Bob's Surname Interest Table we would hae worked that out by now (I mean 'have' but I'm slipping into the dialect as I type!).
Focusing on MR's point: we might be encountering the phenomenon of using a middle name derived from a godparent, which of course makes it almost impossible to link the families.
The question is how can this collective best use its energies in the week that remains of the Challenge?
How about if we try to tease out whether John and Archibald were brothers...
(Still can't tell whether MRs children should have their pocket money stopped for their random selection, or whether we should buy them a super present for the great fun they've allowed us to have!!!!)
Paul
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I quite agree about Robertson being a relatively common name - it's just that both families originate in Greenock, finish up around Liverpool and have similar occupations, so they seemed worth investigating further. However, I've failed to find a connection - I tried to find Robertsons married to Woods or McIvers to account for the middle names, but with no success. The "other" Robertsons seem to have some kind of commercial (?) link to the Rankin and Gilmour families, and the Gilmours are linked indirectly to Allan Robertson's branch, but it's all a bit too vague. (Although I'd be very happy to be proved wrong if anyone wants to carry on digging!)
I think we've been lucky in having a few families with fairly uncommon names (Mollison, Leckie, Orr, Ewing) linked to Allan's family - and Scottish naming patterns have been a great help! I wish I had a few Scottish ancestors of my own to research now I know how it works.
Looking at Allan's direct ancestors, I see there's at least one couple we haven't looked at yet, and that's his g-g-grandparents, Robert Davidson and Christian Philip (or Philp). (Their daughter Margaret married William Maule Molison, if you remember.) Robert and Christian were married in Nigg, Kincardine on 13 Jun 1784 - can anyone take it from there?
Back in half an hour - my Labrador is telling me it's W-A-L-K time...
Rambler
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:D Hi,
So far children to Robert and Christian Davidson...
James...... 21/10/1787
Christian...12/8/1795
William......15/10/1797
All born in Nigg.
Lesanne.
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Children of Robert Davidson and Christian Philp -
Robert chr. 04/01/1783
Katherine chr. 21/08/1784
Alexander chr. 29/03/1786
James chr. 21/10/1787
Margaret chr. 01/08/1789
Isobel chr. 28/08/1791
John chr. 15/08/1793
Christian chr. 12/08/1795
William chr. 15/10/1797
Andrew chr. 11/04/1801
All christened Nigg, Kindardine.........
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Christening of a Christian Philp 08/10/1759 Nigg Kincardine - Parents - John Philp and Christian Donald (12/07/1753 John and Christian married in Nigg)
Also one 20/07/1762 and 18/07/1763 - Parents David Philp and Marion Allan or William Philp and Margaret Walker (Maryculter Kincardine though, not Nigg)
Most likely to be the Nigg couple do you think?.....
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Of course Margaret Davidson was the stepmother to Alexander Strachan Molison as William Maule Molison married Margaret after Alexander was born in about 1803. Alexander's birth mother hasn't been found yet.
Back in the info we had from Michael there was somethng about Alexander's daughter Eliza Wilson Molison being named after her aunt and the family having quite a bit to do with the Wilson family. Robert James molison stayed with Dr Wilson in Huntley when at Aberdeen Uni. (Can't remember who Robert James was though.)
I've been playing around with Molison/Strachan/Wilson combinations to no avail. Was James Molison's daughter Jeanie W, Jeanie Wilson?
Back to the Davidsons, Robert was aged 90 when he died in 1829 according to the grave inscription.
Robert Davidson chr14 Aug 1737 John Davidson & Katherine Hogg at Nigg
Jo
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Siblings to Robert Davidson: all at Nigg
Isabell 1729
Margaret 28 Mar 1740
Andrew 19 Apr 1735
James 1 Apr 1733
All names which reappear in Roberts' children.
Jo
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Theres a John Philp born to a John Philp and Janet Pollock, but its back in Glasgow chr. 29/09/1734.
Connection to the Pollock family but would John Philp Jr then have moved to Nigg Kincardine to marry and have children? Wonder if they had business ventures/land up there?....... (is Nigg, the one in the Highlands or the one near Aberdeen??)
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Nigg is the one by Aberdeen.
This must be Robert's father John:
from will index on scotland's people
John Davidson 22 Nov 1765 in Balnagash parish of Nigg
Jo
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Of course Margaret Davidson was the stepmother to Alexander Strachan Molison as William Maule Molison married Margaret after Alexander was born in about 1803. Alexander's birth mother hasn't been found yet.
Jo
Well, yes - but given that we're unlikely to find ASM's birth mother in the time we have, I think we're justified in following his stepmother's line.
And while we're looking at Davidsons, William Adams Davidson married WMM and Margaret Davidson's daughter Margaret Maria - is he a cousin of some sort?
Rambler
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Back in the info we had from Michael there was somethng about Alexander's daughter Eliza Wilson Molison being named after her aunt and the family having quite a bit to do with the Wilson family. Robert James molison stayed with Dr Wilson in Huntley when at Aberdeen Uni. (Can't remember who Robert James was though.)
I've been playing around with Molison/Strachan/Wilson combinations to no avail. Was James Molison's daughter Jeanie W, Jeanie Wilson?
Jo
I'd forgotten the Wilson connection - could "aunt" Eliza Wilson be linked to the Marshall side of the family? We don't know anything about Alexander's wife Augusta Jane Marshall. I'd better go back and read Michael's info again, because I've no idea who Robert James Molison is... ::)
Although if Jeanie W is Jeanie Wilson, that would mean the connection is with the Molisons, not the Marshalls, wouldn't it? Hmmm..
Rambler
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Christening of a Christian Philp 08/10/1759 Nigg Kincardine - Parents - John Philp and Christian Donald (12/07/1753 John and Christian married in Nigg)
Also one 20/07/1762 and 18/07/1763 - Parents David Philp and Marion Allan or William Philp and Margaret Walker (Maryculter Kincardine though, not Nigg)
Most likely to be the Nigg couple do you think?.....
My vote would go to the Nigg couple too.
Rambler
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Did you ask for this?
Father: William Molison, Mother: Margaret Davidson
1. CHRISTIAN MOLISON Christening: 24 APR 1819 Fraserburgh, Aberdeen, Scotland
2. MARGARET MARIA MOLISON Christening: 19 JAN 1822 Fraserburgh, Aberdeen, Scotland
3. JAMES MOLISON Christening: 23 DEC 1816 Fraserburgh, Aberdeen, Scotland
4. ROBERT DAVIDSON MOLISON Christening: 27 APR 1814 Fraserburgh, Aberdeen, Scotland
5. SALTOUN MOLISONChristening: 23 OCT 1820 Fraserburgh, Aberdeen, Scotland
6. WILLIAM MOLISONChristening: 12 MAR 1770 Dunnottar, Kincardine, Scotland
kenjo
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We had the 5 children chr in Fraserburgh plus Catherine 27 June 1823 but didn't have William.
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Though of course William and Margaret were married 1813 and Margaret was born 1789.
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Unless 1770 is a typo on the IGI, there must be another couple with the same names, as this William Molison is older than William Maule Molison/Margaret Davidson. ???
Rambler
JoT- you beat me to the post!
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Looking at the Dr Wilson in Huntly that we were given in Michael's info:
will index on scotlandspeople has:
George Wilson 26 July 1897 doctor of medicine (retired) resided at West Park Street Huntly died 27 April 1897 at Huntly, testate, widow is Mrs Jean Wymyss Forsyth or Wilson
Moray library local heritage services people search:
George Wilson doctor married Jean Weymss Forsyth 24 Jan 1852 Huntly, 5 Feb 1852 Greyfriars Elgin
also, George Wilson doctor married Margaret Wagstaff of Fochabers at Fochabers 6 June 1839.
back to the will index:
Margaret Wilson 9 Nov 1855 Mrs, or Wagstaff, spouse of George Wilson, Doctor of Medicine at Huntly, extract inventory
Henry McKenzie Adamson son of Catherine Molison who was daughter of William Maule Molison was in 1881 at Balnagask house and a medical student.
Jo
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Henry MacKenzie Adamson b. 26 Nov 1861, St Cyrus, Kincardine, son of James Adamson and Catherine Molison.
Siblings:
Margaret Mary Adamson, chr. 30 Jul 1853, St Cyrus
Maria Adamson, chr. 28 Dec 1854, St Cyrus
Robert William Adamson, b. 10 Oct 1856, St Cyrus
James Adamson, b. 12 Jan 1858, St Cyrus
Catherine Adamson, b. 24 Feb 1860, St Cyrus
Alexander Davidson Adamson, b. 8 Apr 1864, St Cyrus
Rambler
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I feel rather inadequate,
but, I'll post this so you can eliminate the potential siblings of the Hero, Allan....
Jas Robertson married Mary Marshall
13/6/1870. Dunbar, East Lothian.
They had Marion Bathgate Robertson 1871.
and John William Robertson 1873.
Margaret F Robertson. 1876?
in the 1881c, They are still up there.. and I feel you can forget about this branch.
Dwelling: 100 Duke St
Census Place: South Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James ROBERTSON M 33 M Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Fireman On Ry
William LORIMER U 22 M Dunbar, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: Maltman
Mary ROBERTSON M 28 F Haddington, Haddington, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Marian B. ROBERTSON 9 F Dunbar, Haddington, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Margaret F. ROBERTSON 4 F Dunbar, Haddington, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
kenjo
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From the freeCEN website here's George Wilson doctor in Huntley with first wife. Still no obvious connection to the Molison/Davidsons.
Piece: SCT1841/202 Place: Huntly-Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 5
Civil Parish: Huntly Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 5 Page: 9
Address: Duke Street
~~~~~~~~
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
WILSON George M 25 Medical Doctor Outside Census County (1841)
WILSON Margaret F 25 Aberdeenshire
WILSON Edward M 2m Aberdeenshire
BROWN Jane F 20 Female Servant Outside Census County (1841)
HUTCHEON Elsie F 20 Female Servant Aberdeenshire
SPENCE Francis M 14 Male Servant Aberdeenshire
MAVOR Jane F 45 Midwife Aberdeenshire
Jo
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Forgot to say that was George in 1841. Also in 1841 from same site:
Piece: SCT1841/266 Place: Nigg-Kincardineshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Nigg Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 1 Page: 1
Address: Balnagask House
~~~~~~~~
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
DAVIDSON Catharine F 57 Independent Kincardineshire
MITCHEL Rachel F 20 Female Servant Outside Census County (1841)
MATHESON Margaret F 26 Female Servant Kincardineshire
Katherine was a daughter of Robert and Christian.
Jo
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I feel rather inadequate,
but, I'll post this so you can eliminate the potential siblings of the Hero, Allan....
Jas Robertson married Mary Marshall
13/6/1870. Dunbar, East Lothian.
They had Marion Bathgate Robertson 1871.
and John William Robertson 1873.
Margaret F Robertson. 1876?
in the 1881c, They are still up there.. and I feel you can forget about this branch.
kenjo
Kenjo - that's very useful, because we'd queried Marion and John as possible siblings, but never confirmed them or ruled them out definitively. Now we can be sure it's a different family.
Rambler
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Did we have this Robertson/Boyd connection?
Isabella Robertson Boyd b.21/09/1821 Maxwelltown, Abbey (Paisley) Renfrew - Parents Isabella Robertson (b.1799) and Robert Boyd (b.c1795) (Isabella and Robert married c.1820)
Isabella Robertson Boyd married John Taylor 28/04/1848 Abbey Paisley
Their children -
Thomas Taylor 1849
Alexander Robertson Taylor 1851
John Taylor 1852
Janet Neilson Taylor 1856
Still trying to work out if Isabella "belongs" to any of our known Robertsons, surely she must do coming from Paisley.....
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Think this may well be 2 of William maule Molison and Margaret Davidson's girls in 1841:
Piece SCT1841/168 Aberdeen Gilcomston, Chapel Street
Moleson Margt age 15 Independent born Aberdeenshire
Moleson Catherine age 15 Independent born Aberdeenshire
Davidson Ann age 15 female servant born Aberdeenshire
Margaret was born 1822 and Catherine 1823 both in Fraserburgh Aberdeenshire. margaret married in 1851 in Old Machar Aberdeen. Catherine married sometime before 1856.
Just coincidence that their servant was a Davidson
Jo
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I think you're right, Jo. Wonder where their parents were?
Rambler
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According to the Davidson grave inscription at Nigg William Maule Molison died July 1832 but Margaret his wife and the girls mother didn't die until aug 1877 so she must be somewhere in 1841. Chapel Street is in the city centre but mainly small shops now. Pity there isn't a number to the house in teh 1841 census.
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Just come back from a week's heatwave in sunny Wales 8) 8) to find this overwhelming amount of information, one thing just seems to lead on to another doesn't it. I particularly loved the bit about Saltoun in South Africa, it sounded like one of those old black and white films was all about him.
Well done to everyone!
I notice the name Wood in the last couple of pages and just wanted to remind you that we started out with Allan's cousins, George, Charles and John were all "Wood" Robertsons.
Uncle George's wife Mary Walker Gilkison chr. 3 July 1821 in Port Glasgow. Parents were David Gilkison and Elizabeth WOOD. Hence the Wood in George's children's names.
And just to confirm that I have had no response from the John Robertson from Jumbrella and I don't see that BD has posted a mention of him either.
Mary
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Margaret Maria Molison, daughter of William Maule Molison and Margaret Davidson, married William Adam Davidson 1851.
In 1881 she's in Essex at Stownydown Walthamstow:
John B Manson head 37 Agent b. Aberdeenshire
Margaret L Manson wife 29 b Croyden
Margaret M Davidson mother in law 59 B Aberdeenshire
Maria Adamson visitor unm 36 b Kincardine
Katherine Adamson visitor unmar 31 b Kincardine
Maria Laing serv unmar 21 b Glasgow
Margaret Laurie serv unmar 29 b Kincardine
The 2 Adamson ladies are daughters of Catherine Molison, Margaret' sister who married James Adamson.
Jo
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Although a Davidson family unlinked to the Davidsons, William Maule Molison married into, the website below gives a wonderful insight to the life that the family may well have led in the early 1800s. We have 2 of the Molison girls (step sisters to Alexander Strachan Molison) living in Aberdeen in 1841, not far from Union Street and Bon Accord Terrace mentioned in the background to the journals. In the journals Anne mentions going to Nigg church. Most likely they would have met at sometime in what looks likely to be the same social circle.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~missannedavidson/page7.html
Jo
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Having spent all yesterday evening doing a summary of Charlotte Muir's Barbados ancestors, I lost the lot due to a power cut just as I went to post it... After a suitable interval for swearing and cursing, I had another go today, and the result is at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.15.html
Can we fill in any more details here? Is there any way we can find out when these families settled in Barbados and where they came from? Do we know what their occupations were?
I think all the summaries are pretty well up to date (at least for the main families) for anyone who wants to check how far we have gone on each line. I haven't added the latest Davidson info yet, but will try to do that tomorrow. As usual, let me know if I've left out anything important or made any horrible mistakes!
Rambler
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And just to confirm that I have had no response from the John Robertson from Jumbrella and I don't see that BD has posted a mention of him either.
Mary
Nope I've had no response from him either :(
BD
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According to a Pedigree Resource File, Charlotte Muir's ggg-grandmother Margaret Bissell was born on 4 Aug 1712, dau of Benjamin Bissell and Hepzibah Salmon. There is an extracted IGI record for the marriage of Benjamin Bisssell and Hepzibah Nelson in Barbados on 4 Nov 1711 - I guess Salmon/Nelson could be confused with bad enough handwriting.
Interestingly, there is an extracted IGI record for the christening of Hephsiba Byssel, daughter of Benjamin Byssel and Hephsiba, in Ledbury, Hereford on 11 Sep 1715.
The same Pedigree Resource file names Margaret Bissell and Richard Forte's children as William Forte, Margaret Forte (19 Dec 1739) and Benjamin Bissell Forte (8 Oct 1742) - all born Barbados.
Rambler
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Bit more on the Davidsons:
The estate at Balnagask was past on to Alexander by Robert Davidson (wife Christain Philip) in 1829. The oldest son Robert had died crossing the river Dee in 1827.
Alexander died 1868 and gave most of the estate to his sister's (Margaret who married William maule Molison), daughter's (Margaret Maria who married William adam Davidson) son James Davidson born 1854. Craigieshaw was given to his sister's son James Molison (father of Australian Molisons) where he died 1869.
Why was none of the estate given to Alexander's sister's (Margaret) other daughter's (Catherine who married James Adamson) sons ? Would it be that they were just a few years younger and James was the oldest male great nephew?
Catherine's son Henry McKenzie Adamson born 1862 and a medical student in 1881 was obviously into some interesting medical research being at both Balnagask House and his parent's farm at the same time!
Going back to Robert davidson who drowned in the Dee. He married Alexandrina davidson Duthie 29 March 1813 at Nigg. She died 1870 when living at Fetteresso. looking for children of theirs, although had there been they would have surely inherited instead of Alexander? (Of course not if they were girls)
Jo
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No straight forward link to the Davidsons with Alexandrina davidson Duthie:
Chr 25 June 1783 Fetteresso parents William Duthie and margaret Duthie.
Brother John chr 16 Oct 1778.
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Is it July yet ???
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I found some info about the Forte family at http://ancestrees.com/pedigree/1913.htm
Among other things:
As a Lt. Col., Samuell Forte was a representative to the House of Assembly for St. Johns Parish from the years 1712,1715-1719, 1721 and 1723-27. He was elected in the place of John Rouse Aug. 19, 1712. (F-193, F-748) As well as Lieutenant Colonel he had also been Justice of the Peace of the St. John's Regiment of the Militia.
Samuel's father was also named Samuel, according to the same website:
Samuel Forte came to Barbados in 1680 from the Somersetshire family according to Burkes Landed Gentry. He was supposedly exiled from England, obviously with portable wealth in tack.
This website suggests that the Forte's are an offshoot of the Fortescue family, descendants of 2 brothers who came to England with William the Conqueror. They were wealthy plantation owners in Barbados.
Samuel Jr, who married Ann Eastwick, was the father of Richard Forte, Charlotte Muir's direct ancestor. The website has no record of Richard's marriage, but there is an extracted IGI record for the marriage of a Richard Forte and Margaret Bissell - identified by a Pedigree Resource File as the parents of Charlotte's ancestor Wiliam Forte.
However, the website quoted above gives William Forte's father as a different son of Samuel Forte and Ann Eastwick: Christopher Forte, who married his cousin Thomasin Leslie (dau of Col. William Leslie and Thomasine Forte).
Interesting comment on William Forte:
There are many Fortes living in Demerara, South Africa that descend from this William Forte. He apparently emigrated to South Africa during his life time.
Rambler
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Each branch we have followed from our original Allan Robertson has unturned fascinating families. What do we have of the Marshall family (Augusta Jane Marshall married Alexander Strachan Molison 1829 at St George in the East London)?
Their first daughter who married John Robertson, took her mother's name and the second daughter was Mary Jean Marshall who married James Robertson. Was Mary named after her mother's mother?
Jo
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We have absolutely NOTHING about the Marshalls. Augusta Jane's birth isn't in the IGI, and we haven't any info about her parents. There's a possibility Mary was named after Augusta's mother, but no way to be sure.
Could someone with access to the BVRI try looking her up?
Rambler
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Had a look on the BVRI Second Edition. No mention of an Augusta Jane Marshall :( I wonder if ASM met her on his travels overseas...... or could Augusta Jane be her full name but she be entered on the IGI or BVRI under a shortened name/"known as" name....... Disappointing not to be able to take this line any further after the interesting characters we've "met" so far
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I have completely lost the thread - but here are some items I had for Augusta Jane - don't know if any of them are any good - but I'll post them anyways ::)
Suffolk Strays.
Augusta Jane MARSHALL Date of Birth or Bap – Age 21 Parish Bungay, SFK Alt. 1851 Census Athelhampton, DOR Ref HO107/1858 f317
Dorset 1851 Census.
Augusta Jane Marshall Age 21 Occupation – Birth place Bungay, Suffolk, England Census Parish Athelhampton PRO Piece Folio 1858 317
Suffolk Baptism Index (part 1).
Augusta Jane Marshall relationship dau of Parents Joseph Edward & Jane Date 5 May 1829 Notes solicitor Parish Bungay St Mary
Cambridgeshire Marriages.
Married 27 Jul 1852 Groom William John BULL aged 27 condition bac occupation gent residence of Birmingham Bride Augusta Jane MARSHALL aged 23 condition sp occupation [blank] residence of Gonville Place Licence? by lic Groom father William Hawie – occupation clerk Bride father Joseph Edward – occupation solicitor Witnesses J E MARSHALL, Frances Helen MARSHALL, M Annie BULL, Sarah BULL Notes – Parish Cambridge, St Paul, CAM
Annie
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Our Augusta Jane Marshall married ASM in 1829 by licence at St George in the East. Could she still though be a relative of the Augusta Jane that Annie has details for, maybe Aunt?
Following this through this the Joseph Edward Marshall was chr 30 Aug 1805 at Elm Cambridgeshire, parents Joseph and Jane Hannah (LDS submitted entry). Remember the Joseph in ASM and Augusta's 1st son - Alexander Joseph. There are 9 siblings all with 2 names between 1805 and 1826 but no Augusta Jane.
Jo
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I suppose it's possible the 2 Augusta Janes are related, but it'll be difficult to prove. According to census data, "our" Augusta was born c1813 in Stepney, while the other Marshalls are in Cambridge and Suffolk. Need to think about this one...
Rambler
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There are 9 siblings all with 2 names between 1805 and 1826 but no Augusta Jane.
Am I right in thinking that our Augusta Jane Marshall was born in 1829? and we are looking for parents to link to this Joseph Edward?
Have we had this entry from the IGI
05 MAY 1829 Saint Mary, Bungay, Suffolk, England
Parents Joseph Edward Marshall and Jane
or am I following the wrong track altogether?
OK I'll put my reading glasses back on
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Guess what my eyes don't need the specs to see ;D ;D ;D
Just put Augusta Jane Marshall into Google and what comes up top of the list!!! US :D :D :D
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If they were Irish JoT we'd be able to use this ::) ::) ::) ::)
Irish naming patterns
First son after father's father
Second son after mother's father
Third son after father
Fourth son after father's oldest brother
Fifth son after mother's oldest brother
First daughter after mother's mother (or father's mother)
Second daughter after father's mother (or mother's mother)
Third daughter after mother
Fourth daughter after mother's oldest sister
Fifth daughter after father's oldest sister
Annie
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Wonder if those Forte's are any relation to the hotel and restaurant Forte's ???
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I've posted a pdf file showing Allan and Charlotte's known ancestors on the Summaries thread at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=62822.15
(This doesn't include the alternative versions of the Forte line - any comments on that would be welcome!)
Rambler
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I've posted a pdf file showing Allan and Charlotte's known ancestors on the Summaries thread at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=62822.15
Rambler
Sarah - that's brilliant! I'm absolutely staggered at the weight of information and material here. Talk about the power of collective effort.
I've just returned from a weekend away and am looking forward to looking at the latest submissons!
cheers
Paul
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I love the PDF page :D
Interesting how 77 pages of genealogy can be cut down to 1 page ;D
BD
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I'd missed the census data giving our Augusta Marshall's birthplace and birthdate as Stepney c1813. Makes it unlikely that she would be a sister of the Joseph Edward Marshall that had a daughter Augusta Jane chr. in 1829, the year our Augusta married. Joseph's siblings were chr. between 1805 and 1826 all at Elm.
Jo
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Some odds and ends about Charlotte Muir's siblings - mainly from user-submitted IGI records:
Mary Barron Muir m. James Reginald Roberts in Liverpool on 29 Sep 1896. A daughter with the curious name Neula Muir Roberts was born in Liverpool on 20 Jun 1901, and died 5 days later.
Thomas King Muir m. Nellie Cochrane on 24 Sep 1891. He died on 29 Feb 1932 in Texas City, Galveston, Texas. Charlotte also died in Texas - was she visiting her family?
James Ernest Wilkinson Muir m. Rita Matilda Cobby in Quilmes, Buenos Aires, Argentina on 11 Dec 1893. (Rita was born in Argentina.) Children: Irene Rita Muir, b. Liverpool, 13 Nov 1894 and James Lester Muir, b. Glasgow, 27 Aug 1897. James Lester was a 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal Fusiliers, and died on 11 Aug 1916.
Reginald Luckock Muir we have already mentioned: he married Jane Ellen Blackett Jennings in Newcastle-upon-Tyne on 29 Jul 1892.
Gertrude Emmeline Muir died unmarried on 25 Oct 1960.
Rambler
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An amazing family tree you have put together there Sarah, almost makes it easy to sort them out.
Mary
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With only a few days of June left, I'm trying to think how best to round off the Challenge.
I think some folk are still following up various ideas, but for those who don't know where to go next, how about concentrating on...
1. Allan himself
How about another look at those US censuses (posted on Summaries thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,62822.0.html as well as this one) to decide whether any of them is our Allan? On all 3 censuses he has a (?)second wife - can we find a possible marriage record?
Can anyone find Allan in a trades/street directory?
2. Allan's brother Claude
Claude disappears after 1891 - we haven't found a death record, but he doesn't seem to be on the 1901 census. I've run out of inspiration here, so any bright ideas would be welcome!
3. William Maule Molison
There's a good chance his middle name may be his mother or grandmother's maiden name. Can anyone find a likely-looking Molison-Maule marriage pre-1780, probably in Kincardine?
Any other suggestions welcome....
Good hunting!
Rambler
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Does this help in any way? Extracted record on the IGI
John Maule married Anne Molison 5th January 1856 Farnell, Angus, Scotland
Batch M112864
Also extracted
John Maule married Ann Molison 11th January 1856 Brechin, Angus, Scotland
Batch M112751
I know those dates aren't what we are looking for, but the names match!
I like these too:
User submitteds
Alexander Strachan married Christian Maule about 1348 Panmure, Angus, Scotland
Agnes Maule married Strachan about 1543 Panmure, Angus, Scotland
Janet Maule married James Strachan about 1544 Panmure, Angus, Scotland
Elizabeth Maule married James Strachan about 1589 Panmure, Angus, Scotland
Barbara Maule married James Strachan about 1600 Panmure, Angus, Scotland (father Patrick Maule mother Margaret Erskine)
;D ;D ;D
Sorry, cannot find a Maule/Molison marriage of the right date :'( nor a birth entry for William with parents named.
-
So far we know that William Maule Molison's son ASM was born c 1803, in 1803 William joined the Forfar and kincardine Volunteers (info from Michael), he then joined the 71st Highland Light Infantry (did we have a date of 1808) where he became a Lieutenant. In 1813 he married Margaret Davidson. I've written down from the info we had from Michael that William's father was James but we have nothing else on that.
None of William and Margaret's children were called William: Robert was called after Margaret's father, James after Margaret's brother or William's father?, Christian after Margaret's mother, Saltoun after ??, Margaret after her mother and Catherine maybe after Margaret's older sister. Was there a William brother of Alexander born earlier?
Jo
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I have hunted all month for Claude - this is the closest I can get and it seems so blah and futile - all I can think of is - Plymouth is a seaport - who Lily is - I can't fathom - !! I don't even know if CC is male or female....!
1901 Plymouth Devon
Elizabeth Jordan 184 South Tawton, Devon, England Head Plymouth Devon
Thomas M Jordan 1872 Plymouth, Devon, England Son Plymouth Devon
Agnes Madder 1838 South Tawton, Devon, England Sister Plymouth Devon
C C Robertson 1866 London, Middlesex, England Boarder Plymouth Devon
Lily C Robertson 1878 Plymouth, Devon, England Boarder Plymouth Devon
Annie
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None of William and Margaret's children were called William: Robert was called after Margaret's father, James after Margaret's brother or William's father?, Christian after Margaret's mother, Saltoun after ??, Margaret after her mother and Catherine maybe after Margaret's older sister. Was there a William brother of Alexander born earlier?
Jo
You would have expected a son named William, wouldn't you? One who died young, perhaps? Although in that case, I suppose he'd be buried with the others in Nigg.
We don't know whether any of the girls are named after WMM's mother, either.
Rambler
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I have hunted all month for Claude - this is the closest I can get and it seems so blah and futile - all I can think of is - Plymouth is a seaport - who Lily is - I can't fathom - !! I don't even know if CC is male or female....!
I'm afraid Claude is looking like a lost cause, but thanks for trying! Either he died, and the death hasn't been transcribed yet, or he emigrated without trace - surely we'd have found him in 1901 by now if he was still in England?
On second thoughts, there are enough freak transcriptions for him still to be hiding... Just off to try Gland Kobertsou....
Rambler
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I have hunted all month for Claude - this is the closest I can get and it seems so blah and futile - all I can think of is - Plymouth is a seaport - who Lily is - I can't fathom - !! I don't even know if CC is male or female....!
1901 Plymouth Devon
Elizabeth Jordan 184 South Tawton, Devon, England Head Plymouth Devon
Thomas M Jordan 1872 Plymouth, Devon, England Son Plymouth Devon
Agnes Madder 1838 South Tawton, Devon, England Sister Plymouth Devon
C C Robertson 1866 London, Middlesex, England Boarder Plymouth Devon
Lily C Robertson 1878 Plymouth, Devon, England Boarder Plymouth Devon
Annie
Well, I like the look of this as the best match we've had yet for Claude. Wonder if the middle 'C' initial is a clue?
cheers
Paul
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Well, this looks like Lily in 1881 - is Charles Clifton the same person as CC Robertson?
5 Victoria St, Plymouth
William Robertson 56 London Head Family Hotel Keeper
Emma Robertson 38 London St Martins Wife
Charles Clifton 15 Middlesex Son Telegraph Messenger
Arthur Douglas 6 Exmouth, Devon Son
Lily Robertson 4 Plymouth, Devon Daughter
Walter W. Robertson 1 Plymouth, Devon Son
RG11/2194 - Folio 48 - Pg 48
To answer my own question - here's the family in 1891, although Lily's age is given as 41 instead of 14!
48 Shaftsbury Cotts, Charles, Plymouth
Robertson, William M 66 City Road, London Head
Robertson, Emma M 46 St Martins, London Wife
Robertson, Charles C 25 Soho Sq, London Son PO Letter Carrier
Robertson, Lily C 41 Plymouth, Devon Daughter
Robertson, Walter W 11 Plymouth, Devon Son
RG12/1727 - Folio 92 - Pg 93
So it's not Claude, alas.
Rambler
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Thanks MR - the illusion was short-lived! :)
Paul
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OK Forgive me if this has already been posted or if it is totally irrelevant but clutching at straws.
From the Charterhouse Register Vol 1 1872-1910 Oration Quarter 1883
Robertson, Claude William. b 10 Sept., 1869: 3 s of Charles
Robertson, of Godalming, Fellow of the Royal Water Colour
Society; (Pageites); Shooting VIII, 1885, '86, '87 Capt., '87;
Left C.Q. 1887. - Joined R.M.L.I., 1889; served with Benin Ex-
peditionary force, * 1889; Capt., 1898; volunteered from H.M.S.
Katoomba for the S. African War, 1899; Adjutant of New South
Wales Bushmen.
Killed in action at Magatie's Pass, 22 July, 1900.
Mary
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Yes, this is Claude William, son of Charles the artist and Alice Lonsdale, who have cropped up before. So far no one has been able to link the artist's family to Allan & Co. (Charles and Alice are contemporary with Charles McRae Robertson and Alice Johnson, which is why we keep falling over them.)
Rambler
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Talk about getting above our station - but this would be the BOMB!!!!
http://www.maulefamily.com/maule_pres_grant.htm
Annie ::)
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Just in case anybody ever reads this - that's connected to the family - you can have a DNA test done to see if you are related to President Grant ! 8)
http://www.familytreedna.com/surname_join.asp?code=J53444&special=true
Annie
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;D Hi People, yep, I'm still here,
Did we ever find out what Claude's second name was "R".
;) Lesanne ;)
There are 6 C. Robertson's with no age listed in the CWGC casualties.
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Not sure what you mean - Claude doesn't have a middle name on any of the census entries. ???
Rambler
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:D Oops, OK, sorry 'bout that. :D
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So with just 2 days left - I have 2 questions.
Who will be the Moderator for & chose the next challenge?
How do we put ALL this info we have found into a logical/chronological order ? (probably someone has to import into software and then GEDCOM) and then submit to LDS as an ancestral file.
And can all this info be put up as a webpage, somewhere?
BD
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JoT has kindly accepted to host next month's Challenge - watch for her post!
I have all the info for June entered in my software, but when this was discussed earlier, some reticencies were voiced about submitting it to LDS. At that point I proposed a webpage here on RootsChat, which seemed to meet with approval. I suggest dividing it into the 4 main family lines (Robertson, Molison, Muir and King), which was the only way I found practical for the summaries once the info started flooding in.
If anyone has any suggestions for the webpage, or wants to contribute, please could they PM me!
Rambler
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Annie, at least you seem to have found the Maule who submitted all the Panmure information on the LDS site. If they can claim connection to the Pres then I'm sure ours should be able to somehow too ;D ;D ;D
Congratulations JoT, I'm sure you will do it wonderfully, you have come up with some excellent research during this one.
Mary
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Re the origin of 'Maule' - or 'William Maule' - in the name of William Maule MOLISON.
Perhaps - depending on the political sympathies of the family and/or their military involvement - his middle name might not have been a family name but rather he might have been named in honour of some notable person e.g. General William MAULE, Earl of Panmure of Forth 1700-1782?
For information about this chap and his family see:
http://www.maulefamily.com/brianarchive/biog2.htm
JoT mentioned that info received from Michael was that the father of William Maule MOLISON was a James - I've had a quick look through the thread but can't seem to locate that (not surprising, I guess, given the length of the thread!). Do we know where Michael found that information? Perhaps James might have served under General William MAULE?
JAP
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That's an interesting idea, JAP, especially as William was born about the time General Maule died. WMM followed a military career, so maybe his father did too, as you suggest.
Rambler
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By way of total diversion, I started reading the biography of John Peel, the Radio 1 and 4 presenter who died last year.
Interestingly, Peel was born in 1939 as John Parker Ravenscroft in Heswall in the Wirral, near Liverpool, the son of an upper middle class cotton merchant,. He later moved to Dallas, Texas.
Just the odd co-incidences that appealed! :)
cheers
Paul
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Found the bit that gave James as William Maule Molison's father. It was in the notes on William James ASM's son:
WILLIAM JAMES4 MOLISON (ALEXANDER STRACHAN3, WILLIAM MAULE2, JAMES1) was born 1871, and died 1958 in 'STANWAY' PURLEY OAKS ROAD, SANDERSTEAD, SURREY. He married HILDA MARIA MILNES, daughter of WILLIAM MILNES. She was born 1877 in Lee, Kent, England.
Also checked on the Wilson ref.:
Notes for ELIZA WILSON MOLISON:
The Wilson is a family name. Her aunt married a Wilson. The family connection was quite strong, as Robert James Molison put his address at a Dr. Wilson in Huntley Scotland when he was at University in Aberdeen.
So either a sister of Alexander or of Augusta Jane Marshall married a Wilson. We've accounted for all ASM's step sisters so could this be a clue to Augusta Jane's family or a another daughter of William Maule Molison born before his marriage to Margaret Davidson. Still haven't found who Robert James was though.
Also:
Hence you find that Osbert Forsyth, a cousin, married a Dunbar, was in business with Sir John Pirie Lord Mayor of London, and whose daughter married James Molison, another cousin and brother of Alexander Strachan Molison.
Does this mean that James Molison was a cousin of some sort to Duncan Dunbar not just through his wife's connection? Another clue to William Maule Molison's family?
Jo
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There is a user submitted entry on the IGI for
Robert James Mollison born 1869 Aberdeen, Scotland
Died 14th July, 1931
Married Alice Dalgleish 01 MAY 1902 Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
She was born 19 MAY 1866 Newton, Scarsdale, Victoria, Australia and died 21 NOV 1928
Mary
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Checked on that but couldn't find a birth registration for Robert James on Scotlandspeople.
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Just to let contributors to this thread know that your efforts are being noted!
http://genealogyblog.com/?p=3914
http://genealogue.blogspot.com/2005/06/censuswhacking-and-other-british.html
http://genealogy.about.com/b/a/179196.htm
http://www.foote-family.com/weblog/
These are 'blogs' that have picked up the BBC story about the Challenge.
If you look at the Rootschat statistics page, too, you'll see that a host of new members joined this month - so I'm sure your work on this Challenge will have helped to draw them in!
cheers
Paul
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Back with you after losing internet connection yesterday - a disadvantage of living at the foot of the Vosges mountains in the current hot weather is that we get monumental thunderstorms which take out our electric/phone lines periodically!
I've hunted for a Wilson connection without success so far: I thought it was more likely to be on the Molison side, given that Dr Wilson lived in Scotland, and that Michael's info was principally about that side of the family. However, that would mean an undiscovered sibling or a double marriage for one of the sisters we know about - not impossible, though. The Marshalls have defeated me entirely, I'm afraid.
Likewise, I found nothing conclusive for Robert James Molison, but if we take the IGI place of birth with a pinch of salt, could he be the youngest son of James Molison and Isabella Ann Forsyth, who we found at school on the 1881 census? According to that census, Robert was born c1869 in Holloway, Middlesex.
I'm not sure what to conclude about cousinship between the Molisons and the Dunbars from the quote about Osbert Forsyth - it's the kind of sentence which is crystal-clear to the person who writes it, but confusing to an outsider!
Rambler
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What time period are we looking for a Wilson marriage?
Is this too early/late?
Margaret Dunbar to John Wilson 15/11/1801 Arbuthnott, Kincardine
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Eliza Wilson Molison, chr. 21 Sep 1849, supposedly had an aunt who married a man named Wilson. Eliza's father was born c1802 and her mother c1813, so this marriage is perhaps too early, but you never know - it might be a great-aunt or something like that.
Rambler
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The usual apologies if this is already posted, but I've been trying to hoover up some Muirs... :)
From 1891 Census
James R Roberts, Head, M, 31, Commission Agent Provision, Lancashire, Toxteth Park
Mary B Roberts, Wife, M, 29, London
John R H Roberts, Son, 3 mths, Lancashire, Toxteth Park
Gertrude E Muir, Sistyer-in-law, 18, Lancashire, Walton on the Hill
+ 1 servant
all at 51 Bryanston Road, Toxteth
Mary B would be Mary Barron Muir, and both she and Gertrude are sisters-in-law to Allan Robertson.
Now I've typed this, I'm sure I remember it being posted before. Time to get my coat again...
Paul
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By 1901, the Roberts are at 7 Alfred Place, Toxteth, and James R has become an organiser for the Royal National Lifeboat Institution.
Nice guy 8)
We also get South Kensington as a place of birth for Mary Barron Roberts.
Paul
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Woohoo! We're back to boats !!
http://www.whitby-yorkshire.co.uk/lifeboat/lifeboats.htm
Used to love watching the lifeboat go out .........
Annie
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Looking at the Dr Wilson in Huntly that we were given in Michael's info:
will index on scotlandspeople has:
George Wilson 26 July 1897 doctor of medicine (retired) resided at West Park Street Huntly died 27 April 1897 at Huntly, testate, widow is Mrs Jean Wymyss Forsyth or Wilson
Moray library local heritage services people search:
George Wilson doctor married Jean Weymss Forsyth 24 Jan 1852 Huntly, 5 Feb 1852 Greyfriars Elgin
also, George Wilson doctor married Margaret Wagstaff of Fochabers at Fochabers 6 June 1839.
Jo
I think I've worked out the Wilson-Forsyth-Molison connection:
The IGI has a birth record for Jean Henryss Forsyth, dau of Osbert Forsyth and Isabella Reid, b. Clapham, 17 Apr 1830. I think this is the same person as the Jean Weymss Forsyth found by JoT.
Osbert Forsyth was the son of Alexander Forsyth and Margaret Dunbar. His daughter Isabella Ann married ASM's brother James.
ASM's daughter Eliza Wilson Molison was supposedly named after her "aunt", who married a Wilson, but it looks as if it was a more distant family connection: her uncle James' sister-in-law.
And that makes it more likely that Robert James Molison who stayed with George Wilson while at university was James' son - George was Robert's uncle.
Rambler
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Molison-Dunbar-Tatham-Shores
Tying up loose ends!
Duncan Dunbar Molison (son of Alexander Strachan Molison, nephew to James Molison whose father in law was cousin to Duncan Dunbar shipping millionaire, married Justina Louisa Shores daughter of John wallis Shores and Justina Tatham.
Found on IGI:
Justina Tatham chr 8 July 1862 Walthamstow parents Duncan Dunbar Tatham and Mary Ann.
From NOTES ON THE ISSUERS OF THE CEYLON TOKENS
The partners parted company in 1860 and Thomas Dickson started the firm under the name Thomas Dickson & Co. with Christopher Tatham as partner. The name was again changed in 1863 to Dickson, Tatham & Co.
Tatham was a nephew of Duncan Dunbar, the millionaire owner of the Dunbar Line of first class sailing ships.
Thomas Dickson retired in the early 1860s and Tatham took over the entire business.
can't find the direct link between Justina Tatham, who married John Wallis Shores and Duncan Dunbar but must be close.
How many Duncan Dunbar XXXs are there???!
I think this is how they fit together:
Justina Dunbar, sister of Duncan Dunbar (millionaire), married Christopher Tatham in Shoreditch on 19 Jan 1821. (IGI) These must be the parents of the Christopher Tatham described above as DD's nephew.
I think Christopher and Justina are also the parents of Justina Tatham who married John Wallis Shores, and Duncan Dunbar Tatham who married Mary Ann and had daughter Justina, although there are no IGI entries to back this up. Is there anything in BVRI?
A 71 year-old Christopher Tatham died in W Derby in Mar 1880 - possibly Christopher Sr.
Rambler
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TATHAM, Justina Christening
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 12 May 1854
Christening Date: 8 Jul 1862 Recorded in: Walthamstow, Essex, England
Collection: St Mary
Father: Duncan Dunbar TATHAM
Mother: Mary Ann
Source: FHL Film 1564136 Dates: 1829 - 1901
Sorry I know we have probably already had that, but just pasted the one I found whilst still looking, nothing else found for either Justina/Christopher/Duncan on the BVRI
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Noticing Justina’s date of birth, do we know where she was born?
I have a possible in 1861, the occupation of the “uncle” looks interesting
RG9/1061 West Ham Walthamstow Folio 78 Page 31
Church End, Walthamstow
William S Brown Head M 43 Commercial Clerk to Ship Owners Middlesex St George East
Phebe Wife M 39 Middlesex Poplar
Margaret Emily Daur 5 Scholar “ “
Francis Dixon Son 3 “ “
Arthur Kaye Son 1 “ “
Justina Tatum Neice 7 Scholar Australia (transcribed Sotum)
And Servants
This family has moved to the Mansion House, Ayot St Lawrence, Hertfordshire in 1871, with interestingly another Duncan
RG10/1375 Hatfield, Welwyn Folio 59 Page 6
Phoebe Brown Wife (crossed out and replaced by Head) M 49 Wife of W S Brown Esq. (Absent) Middlesex Poplar
Phoebe Brown daur Unm 23 “ “
Duncan Son Unm 21 Articled Clerk to Colonial Broker “ “
Margaret Emily daur 15 Scholar “ “
Francis Dixon Son 13 “ “ “
Together with governess and a variety of servants.
No sign of our Justina or a Duncan
Mary
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Brilliant work MR on the Wilson/Molison/Forsyth connection. That certainly makes sense of the clues we've had. Wish we could tie up the loose end of William Maule Molison before I post July's challenge.
Jo
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We don't know where Justina Tatham was born - I like the look of this family! They're in Walthamstow where she was christened at the age of 8 in 1862 - we only had a christening date until now. Do we presume that if this is the right family, Phoebe Brown's maiden name was Tatham? (Named after her maternal grandmother in that case.) Or is the relationship on the side of Justina's mother, Mary Ann? I suppose we have no way of knowing.
Rambler
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Somebody has submitted records in the IGI for the marriage of William Brown and Phoebe Brown 1847 (about) London Poplar and also for the birth of Duncan Brown about 1850 London Poplar, again parents are just William Brown and Phoebe Brown, no mention of any other maiden name for Phoebe. ??? ???
Nothing on the BVRI
Mary
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Going back to the moray local heritage library to check on info on the Dunbar family:
Duncan Dunbar junior (the millionaire) had sisters Maria Anne chr 24 Mar 1799 and Justina 6 Nov 1801 both at Shoreditch and on the IGI. Info on the library site has other siblings; John, Janet, Margaret, Helen and Phoebe.
Phoebe Brown would have been born about 1822, could she have been a much younger sister of Duncan Dunbar and so also Justina Dunbar who married Chris Tatham? Duncan Dunbar senior died 1825 and Phoebe his wife died 1853.
Jo
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Mary Barron Muir m. James Reginald Roberts in Liverpool on 29 Sep 1896. A daughter with the curious name Neula Muir Roberts was born in Liverpool on 20 Jun 1901, and died 5 days later.
From 1891 Census
James R Roberts, Head, M, 31, Commission Agent Provision, Lancashire, Toxteth Park
Mary B Roberts, Wife, M, 29, London
John R H Roberts, Son, 3 mths, Lancashire, Toxteth Park
Gertrude E Muir, Sistyer-in-law, 18, Lancashire, Walton on the Hill
Curious anomoly, Paul what made you look in the 1891 census?
Mea culpa! It's ok Paul, I got why you did, the 1896 should be 1886!
Mary Barron Muir
Death 16th January 1914
Parents James Muir and Charlotte Marie Ann Jenk Wilk. King
Married James Reginald Roberts 29 September 1886 Liverpool, Lancashire
Husband Age at marriage 27
Death 16th September 1933
Mary
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I'd forgotten MR's posting (along with much else in this splendid, multi-layered thread! :)) - I just looked at the Summary and decided to poke around where it looked like there was something we hadn't followed.
You're right - this is very curious! Wonder what was going on? ???
Paul
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It's conceivable, of course, that the Mary B in 1891 is a different one to the Mary B in 1901... but that seems unlikely! With sister Gertrude there, it must be 'our' Mary.
(Nearly 1200 posts before we get a whiff of scandal in this family ... they must have been a right bleedin' proper lot!!!!)
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Just amended my entry above Paul.
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Thought it was too good to be true! ;D
Paul
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Pffffffffft no flaming scandal, they are too prissy for us then! ;D ;D ;D
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Ok, deed done as July starts in just over an hour. Just hope the initial C. doesn't stand for Claude ;)
Jo
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An extremely well done to everyone, especially Sarah, keeping track of everything AND us so fantastically!!!
Mary
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A classic in its own lunchtime!
Hearty thanks are due to Sarah for such consummate skill in keeping this thread on track - despite the best efforts of some of us (and I include myself!) to divert here and there.
You have Marshalled a thread that brought us back for Muir and Muir time and time again... 95 hits on Google for "Rootschat Challenge" is testament enough.
Many thanks!
Paul
PS
And a big thanks to the kids for randomly choosing such an interesting census entry in the first place! :)
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Ok, deed done as July starts in just over an hour. Just hope the initial C. doesn't stand for Claude ;)
Jo
Jo!
What initial "C" ??
I just went back 3 pages and I couldn't see it - could be me too of course ::) ::)
don't we still have 8 hours?? it's only 4pm here!!
Annie :P
OK - I get it - "C" is the JULY Challenge!!!!!
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Sorry Annie, C. referred to the July challenge. I'm afraid its 11.20pm here in Aberdeen. Would love you to find William Maule Molison in your last 8 hours ;)
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Here in France it's past midnight, so I suppose I ought to draw the June Challenge to a close, especially as my server is playing silly b*****s this evening.
Many thanks to all who participated - I haven't counted how many different people contributed to this thread, but there were dozens!
We started with one man, and in just a month have traced both his maternal and paternal lines to the mid-1700's, not to mention picking up piles of rellies and background info on the way. His wife's paternal line also goes back to the 18th century, while we have traced her maternal ancestors in Barbados back to the 1600's. A marvellous achievement for all concerned!
I will leave this thread open, in case Michael or Sedona have anything to add, or in case anyone falls over Allan or Claude after 1891....
Hoping the July Challenge will turn out to be just as interesting!
Rambler
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Hi All
I am just a reader of this topic. but I would like to take this moment to thank one and all for making it such a good and interesting read.
I just wish I was as good at this as you lot.
once again thanks
Wellie
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Wellie,
We are all amateurs just having fun, no special skills except pure nosiness and we have tons of that as I'm sure you do if you are researching your own family. You have access to google, search engines, the familysearch site and others such as FreeBMD the same as us, and a fresh pair of eyes is always welcome, come and join us for the July challenge.
Best wishes
Mary
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And the July Challenge can be found here...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,70127.0.html
cheers
Paul
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An 'all points bulletin' for Claude Robertson has been posted here:
http://etherington.rootschat.net/html/most_wanted.html
If you have any further information about Claude, please post it here.
Thanks
Paul
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Justina Dunbar married Dr Christopher Tatham, a Surgeon in Poplar, Middlesex in 1821. Justina died before 2 August 1827, when Christopher married Elizabeth Gordon at All Saints, Poplar.
Elizabeth Gordon was the sister of my ancestor Mary Korff, nee Gordon. John and Mary Korff lived in Sydney, New South Wales. I will write more when I collect any other information I may have.
Molison-Dunbar-Tatham-Shores
Tying up loose ends!
Duncan Dunbar Molison (son of Alexander Strachan Molison, nephew to James Molison whose father in law was cousin to Duncan Dunbar shipping millionaire, married Justina Louisa Shores daughter of John wallis Shores and Justina Tatham.
Found on IGI:
Justina Tatham chr 8 July 1862 Walthamstow parents Duncan Dunbar Tatham and Mary Ann.
From NOTES ON THE ISSUERS OF THE CEYLON TOKENS
The partners parted company in 1860 and Thomas Dickson started the firm under the name Thomas Dickson & Co. with Christopher Tatham as partner. The name was again changed in 1863 to Dickson, Tatham & Co.
Tatham was a nephew of Duncan Dunbar, the millionaire owner of the Dunbar Line of first class sailing ships.
Thomas Dickson retired in the early 1860s and Tatham took over the entire business.
can't find the direct link between Justina Tatham, who married John Wallis Shores and Duncan Dunbar but must be close.
How many Duncan Dunbar XXXs are there???!
I think this is how they fit together:
Justina Dunbar, sister of Duncan Dunbar (millionaire), married Christopher Tatham in Shoreditch on 19 Jan 1821. (IGI) These must be the parents of the Christopher Tatham described above as DD's nephew.
I think Christopher and Justina are also the parents of Justina Tatham who married John Wallis Shores, and Duncan Dunbar Tatham who married Mary Ann and had daughter Justina, although there are no IGI entries to back this up. Is there anything in BVRI?
A 71 year-old Christopher Tatham died in W Derby in Mar 1880 - possibly Christopher Sr.
Rambler
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Hi Denise and Welcome to Rootschat!!
My goodness - you've brought another twist ....... ::)
This family has been full of twists and turns!!
It will be interesting to hear what else you have!!
Regards
Annie
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Hi Denise
Annie's right - you've got an audience here waiting to hear what might be added to this intricate tale!
All best wishes
Paul
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Welcome to Rootschat Denise, how wonderful that you are able to add to this and also I hope you've got a lot from our research to add to your own family.
Regards
Mary
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Hello to everyone interested in Christopher Tatham and Justina Dunbar. I am sure we can all help each other with this complicated family.
I know that Christopher and Justina had a daughter Phoebe who married William Brown, as the following Times citation of date 8 January 1847 proves:
"On the 7th inst. at Poplar Church, William Smith, eldest son of W.S.Brown Esq. of Brunswick- Terrace, Commercial Road, to Phoebe, eldest daughter of Christopher Tatham, Esq., of Poplar, and niece of Duncan Dunbar Esq. of Limehouse".
The 1841 Census for the Borough of the Tower Hamlets, Parish of Poplar lists the family of Christopher Tatham and his second wife Elizabeth, nee Gordon:
"Newby Place
Christopher Tatham, 50, Surgeon, No (not born in the same county)
Elizabeth Tatham, 30, yes
Duncan Dunbar Tatham, 18, Clerk, yes
Mary Ann Tatham, 9, yes
Christopher Tatham, 7, yes
Marmaduke John Tatham, 5, yes
Elizabeth Patty Tatham, 2 months, yes
Marmaduke Maxwell Tatham, 18, Apprentice, yes
plus servants etc..."
If the ages are correct then Duncan Dunbar Tatham must have been the son of Christopher and Justina. Does anyone know when he died?
Christopher Tatham had other children with Elizabeth, as the 1841 census suggests. There is also a Robert Gordon Tatham whose death notice appeared in "the Times", 4 December 1895:
"Tatham-on the 3rd inst., at his residence, 69 East India Road, ROBERT GORDON TATHAM, M.R.C.S. Eng., eldest son of the late Christopher Tatham M.R.C.S., aged 66. Friends, please accept this, the only intimation."
Elizabeth Patty Tatham married Walter Hamilton Bissett, and she died on 31 December 1893, as described in "The Times", 2 January 1894:
"BISSET-on 31st December, at 69, East India-road, the residence of her brother R.G.Tatham, ELIZABETH PATTY, Widow of the late WALTER HAMILTON BISSET, R.N.R, and daughter of the late Christopher Tatham, Surgeon, Poplar. Friends willaccept this intimation."
Many members of the Tatham family are buried in the Honble[sic.] East India Company Poplar Burial Ground (St Mathias?). I will list them next message since this is becoming too long I think.
Hope to learn more,
Denise
Welcome to Rootschat Denise, how wonderful that you are able to add to this and also I hope you've got a lot from our research to add to your own family.
Regards
Mary
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Hello and welcome, Denise!
We don't have a date for Duncan Dunbar Tatham's death - I haven't been able to find him on the 1861 census, but Tatham is a name which lends itself to mistransciptions. ::)
FreeBMD has a death entry for Marmaduke Maxwell in Hastings, Sep Q 1843 (Hastings 7 37).
As I understand it then, Christopher Tatham and Justina Dunbar's children were:
Duncan Dunbar (c1822)
Marmaduke Maxwell (c1822)
Phoebe
Plus - presumably - Justina, who married John Shores in 1848.
Christopher and Elizabeth Gordon's children were:
Robert Gordon (c1829)
Mary Ann (c1831)
Christopher (c1833)
Marmaduke John (c1835)
Elizabeth Patty (c1841)
Look forward to learning more!
Rambler
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Crikey, MR .... this really is the thread that never dies!
Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the censuses, 81 pages of collective research is kickstarted again! :)
I posted an APB for Claude today, too, so we may yet hear of his whereabouts! :)
Paul
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I must admit the Robertson-Molison-Muir clan feel like part of my own family now! (Except much richer.... ;D)
MR
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Hello everyone,
Sorry. It is not that simple! In the burial ground of the H.E.I.C. at St Matthias, Poplar there are records for another family (IGI film # 569204 and 569202). Marmaduke Tatham was also a surgeon and I suspect the brother of Christopher. Marmaduke was married to Mary Ann. Perhaps they were baptised at Bentham, Yorkshire in 1790 (Christopher) and 1784 (Marmaduke). If so their parents were Christopher and Anne. Marmaduke married Mary Ann Butcher.
Mary Ann Tatham, wife of Marmaduke died on 13 April 1829, aged 36.
Marmaduke Tatham, Surgeon, died on 3 September 1835, aged 51.
Sarah Ann, daughter of Marmaduke and Mary Ann Tatham died 14 June 1835, aged 14 years and (1, 4 or 7 months).
Mary Ann, youngest daughter of Marmaduke and Mary Ann Tatham died 5 March 1846, aged 16 years and 11 months
Marmaduke Maxwell, son of Marmaduke Tatham died 21 July 1843, aged 20 years and ten (?) months.
Chs. John, [Charles] last surviving son of Marmaduke and Mary Ann Tatham died 2 June 1848, aged 24 (His wife Louisa died 30 April 1848, aged 22). Charles of Northfleet, Kent died at the residence of his father-in-law at Blackwall.
So, the children of Marmaduke and Mary Ann were orphaned by 1835, and it appears that Christopher and Elizabeth Tatham took on some or all of their children as well as those of Christopher and Justina. So far I can only confirm Robert Gordon Tatham, Elizabeth Patty Tatham and probably Christopher John Tatham as Elizabeth's.
Did cholera kill off this family I wonder? Whatever happened to "Physician heal thyself" ?
I have a record of a Duncan Dunbar ship "Thames" arriving in Port Phillip in November 1858, and on board was Captain Marmaduke John Tatham. I don't know whether he was captain of the ship or a passenger.
The only other record I have for this family is the supposed death of passenger Mr Marmaduke Tatham in the foundering of the ship "Scoresby" in 1866 ("The Times" 29 November 1866).
I have just remembered why I gave up on this family some time ago!
I believe it is entirely possible that Justina Dunbar was born in Australia in 1854 and baptised in England in 1862. Compulsory registration of births in NSW did not take effect until 1856.
I hope my information is not straying too far from the original topic. I am very keen to learn more of this family and look forward to any replies.
Denise
Hello and welcome, Denise!
We don't have a date for Duncan Dunbar Tatham's death - I haven't been able to find him on the 1861 census, but Tatham is a name which lends itself to mistransciptions. ::)
FreeBMD has a death entry for Marmaduke Maxwell in Hastings, Sep Q 1843 (Hastings 7 37).
As I understand it then, Christopher Tatham and Justina Dunbar's children were:
Duncan Dunbar (c1822)
Marmaduke Maxwell (c1822)
Phoebe
Plus - presumably - Justina, who married John Shores in 1848.
Christopher and Elizabeth Gordon's children were:
Robert Gordon (c1829)
Mary Ann (c1831)
Christopher (c1833)
Marmaduke John (c1835)
Elizabeth Patty (c1841)
Look forward to learning more!
Rambler
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Molison-Dunbar-Tatham-Shores
Hello Everyone,
As you can see, I have no idea how to tune in and out of this site yet, so please forgive me. I have some information to add to my last posting.
Duncan Dunbar TATHAM married Mary Ann JUDD in Victoria, Australia in 1853 (#29944 Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages, Victoria).
Their daughter JUSTINA was born, and birth registered in Victoria in 1854 (#2448). Birth place was "CHIL"...not sure what district that stands for.
I could find no other child born to this couple.
Perhaps Duncan headed for the goldfields, either as a miner or a merchant.
I don't know how relevant the following information is, but in Dec. 1/4 1846 Charles John Tatham, probable nephew of Christopher, married Louisa SHORES at Poplar.
Was Louisa the sister of John Wallis Shores who married Justina Tatham in Stepney in Dec. 1/4 1848?
Cheers,
Denise
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Hi Denise,
I note that Duncan and Mary Ann were married at St Peters. This was in Melbourne - St Peters Church of England, Eastern Hill (my parents were married there and also one set of great-great-grandparents). Nowadays it's just on the outskirts of the CBD. 'CHIL' might be Chiltern in NE Victoria - certainly it was part of the gold rush districts of the early 1850s.
Did you notice the possible death for Mary Ann?
TATHAM Mary Ann, father Henry Judd, no mother named, died age 34 at SOUT (could be anywhere?) in 1857 #6129.
A Mary Ann JUDD came as an assisted immigrant in 1849 - perhaps this Mary Ann?
JUDDs listed at:
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=24
on the ship 'James Foord', 21 Nov 1849, were (suspicious coincidence of names and ages??):
JUDD Mary Ann, 27, Book 5 Page 8
JUDD Ellen, 21, Book 5 Page 8
and
JUDD Mary Jane, 27, Book 4A Page 193
JUDD Ellen, 21, Book 4A Page 193
JAP
PS: Earlier we had the christening of a Justina TATHAM from the IGI (presumably the one born in Victoria, Australia in 1854):
Justina TATHAM, parents Duncan Dunbar TATHAM and Mary Ann, bap 8 Jul 1862, Walthamstow Essex.
This is probably her death from FreeBMD:
Justina TATHAM, age 16, died Sep qtr 1870, Hatfield Hertfordshire, Vol 3a Page 251
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Molison-Dunbar-Tatham-Shores
Hello Jap,
Thank you for the additional information. I didn't continue my Victorian search, assuming incorrectly that Duncan, Mary Ann and Justina Tatham returned to the UK.
Elizabeth Tatham, nee Gordon, was a daughter of Robert Gordon, a cooper at Orchard House, and Mary Kemp. My ancestor Mary Korff, nee Gordon was another daughter of Robert and Mary.
Robert Gordon was born in Elgin, Moray, Scotland in 1762, and came to London as a young man. I have been trying to determine whether the relationship between the Korff/Gordon family and Duncan Dunbar was a familial one or simply a business association. Perhaps the families knew each other in Morayshire, or perhaps it is simply that Mary's sister Elizabeth married Christopher Tatham, husband of Duncan's sister Justina. Certainly the extended family in Sydney travelled between England and Australia using Duncan Dunbar ships almost exclusively.
John Korff was a boat builder and marine architect, and Coff's Harbour is named after him. Because of his "fame" his family has been extensively researched, but the Gordon family has been neglected...until now!
Cheers,
Denise
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Er...
I understand that Ancestry now have the index for the 1920 US census online.
Just wondering if someone with access to that can check to see if Allan and or / Claude are over there by any chance!
cheers
Paul
-
What do you all make of this?
Marriages, December Quarter 1920
ROBERTSON, Claude S, Fulham 1a 596
BURROUGHS, Doris F M, Fulham 1a 596
By my calculations, "our" Claude would have been 52 or 53 years old in 1920. Second marriage or more likely a son or nephew?
Al
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Al, don't get Paul's hopes up ::)
Claude S Robertson 7 born Clapham son of George S Robertson, widower, Warehouseman born Liverpool.
1901 census RG13/210 Folio 159 page 22
.........
I did see a poster in France advertising a musical evening and one of the performers was a Claude Robere ;D
Susan :)
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Not much to add but I believe you will find CHIL is the abbrievation for CHIL Chilwell, VIC.
The abbreviation for Chiltern is CHILE.
Hope this helps,
Holly
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Thank you for your additional information Holly. I have made a note of Chilwell.
Regards from Denise
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Hi Holly,
Very interested re your comment about abbreviations for Victorian registration districts.
I would really like to learn more about these! The abbreviations in the indexes have always been a puzzle and an annoyance to me.
Do you have a definitive source for place name abbreviations in the Victorian BDM indexes?
I've never found place abbreviations to be consistent but would be very pleased to find that they were! In the Pioneer Index, there are only six entries with place as CHILE, 2722 with place as CHIL, 935 with place as CHILWELL (which is near Geelong), and 1057 with place as CHILTERN. Who knows!
Looking forward to hearing from you with more info about abbreviations of registration districts.
Cheers,
JAP
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Hi JAP,
I dont think there is such thing as a definitive source for the abbrievations but I have found in my search the following site has been very useful: http://members.westnet.com.au/web/talltrees/resources/vic_abbr.htm
But I always check other sites to see if they agree and in this case they did:
http://www.zades.com.au/geelong/gdusef.htm#BDM
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~ifhaa/ifhaa/misc/vicnames.htm
However Its possible that CHIL could stand for both districts.
Holly
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Hello again Holly and Denise,
CHIL was definitely an abbreviation which was used for Chiltern. I can't comment on other usages of CHIL but I have checked out a death in Victoria, Australia which is known (from the certificate) to have occurred at Chiltern - and the death place is abbreviated in the index to CHIL. Abbreviations in the Victorian indexes are a real 'pain in the neck' for researchers.
Holly, I've now looked at the sites you quoted. The Geelong site could be useful for the specific Geelong area but I would suggest that it would be prudent NOT to place reliance on the other two or any similar sites - except perhaps as a source of ideas for what an abbreviation might stand for.
The two sites include many spelling errors, they quote abbreviations which don't seem to exist, and they suggest only one place for an abbreviation although that abbreviation is commonly (possibly more commonly) used for one or more other places. Worst of all, some of the listings (like CHILE for Chiltern) are positively misleading to readers - as you now know. I suspect that, in the minuscule number of records where CHILE appears, it actually means Chile (the country in South America). There are no deaths in 'CHILE' in the 1921-1985 Death Index. In the Edwardian Index there are no births or deaths in CHILE; there is one marriage where the groom's birthplace is listed as CHILE. In the Pioneer Index there are no births or deaths in CHILE; there are 6 deaths where the person's birthplace is listed as CHILE (back in the time when birthplace rather than deathplace was listed in the index).
I guess this serves as an important reminder to all of us genealogists not to rely on secondary sources :) Unfortunately, there is no primary source for abbreviations in the Victorian indexes - the only way to find out for sure what the abbreviation stood for in any particular instance is to buy the certificate :'( Though sometimes one can be fairly confident if there are other events for the same people round the same time where the full place name appears in the index.
Cheers,
JAP
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Justina TATHAM and the Victorian BDM Registry
Hello Holly, JAP and everyone,
I contacted the Registry of BDM Victoria and received a response today from Ms Anne Fullarton, Projects Officer, VicHeritage.
Anne very kindly checked the registers and confirmed that Justina TATHAM was born in 1854 at CHILWELL, Victoria. Mary Ann TATHAM died in 1857 at GEELONG, Victoria. The SOUT refers to Mary Ann's place of birth, SOUThampton, England. These 2 records have been altered to reflect this. Many thanks to Anne for her generosity.
Anne explained that they do not keep a list of abbreviations because the various data entry people used various abbreviations, making it difficult. As a general rule, the first four letters of a place name become the abbreviation, but in the case of, for example, Ballarat one sees BALL and BRAT, and BALL can refer to other Victorian towns as well.
So, assume nothing in genealogy!
Mary Ann Tatham is buried in the Geelong Eastern Cemetery.
Where was Duncan? Was he gold prospecting or a landowner or a merchant, or did he jump ship? Who looked after Justina when her mother died? Did she return to England alone or with her father?
For those still sticking to the original challenge you may be interested to know that James MOLISON, in Sydney, Occupation Shipbroker and Agent, made it onto the Insolvency List (Refer NSW State Records Online Index). Sequestration was on 9 March 1867 and Date Certificate Issued was 28 August 1867 (File #8234).
These insolvency records often provide a fascinating insight into the life of the person and their associates. If anyone would like me to check the records I will do so on my next visit to the Archives.
I checked out the site "Convictions Australian Shipping 1788-1968". Under "Ship's Captains" there are many references to Captains Molison and also Robertson. All the ships captained by Molison (check spelling variants) were Duncan Dunbar's ships.
I hope this is of interest to you all,
Denise
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Denise, you were indeed fortunate in getting all that information without having to buy the certificate! The death certs are very informative - but I guess it's fairly distant from your own family. I take it - as you query where Duncan was - that he was not the informant of Mary Ann's death? Holly, after you raised the possibility of Chilwell (which - mea culpa - I hadn't thought of as another possibility; and perhaps Childers might be another Victorian place to add to Chiltern and Chilwell?) it didn't occur to me to search on the Bellarine Peninsula site; I now see that Mary Ann's burial - name, date and cemetery - is listed there (though not the complete index entry). Ah well, perhaps the discussion about the unreliability of lists of Vic BDM abbreviations was of use. Denise, I apologise for my stupid error in listing SOUT as Mary Ann's death place; yes, it was in the days when, for deaths, the birthplace rather than the deathplace was indexed (they changed over later) - I'm sorry for my carelessness :-[
Regards,
JAP
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Hello JAP,
In my email to BDM Victoria I mentioned this Rootschat site and the fact that Justina Tatham had been traced to Victoria where she was born in CHIL in 1854. I also mentioned her mother's death in (I thought) SOUT in 1857.
The Projects Officer of VicHeritage generously provided the abbreviations information for us all, and I am indebted to her for her kindness.
I did not purchase either certificate since this family is rather remote from mine. I found the burial index for Mary Ann Tatham on a Geelong site.
Duncan may have been the informant on Mary Ann's death certificate. My question was more in the vein of "What was this family doing in Geelong? Was Duncan in search of gold, or was he a landowner or perhaps a merchant...?"
Cheers,
Denise
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***Death of Justina Tatham, nee Dunbar***
Hello everyone,
I KNEW I had it somewhere.
Death Notice in "the Times", Saturday, Jul 15, 1826:
"On the 11th inst., Justina, wife of Mr Christopher Tatham, surgeon, Newby Place, Poplar, aged 24.
Also, the marriage notice for Charles John Tatham, in "The Times", Wednesday, Dec 02, 1846:
"On Monday the 30th ult., at All Saints Poplar, by the Rev. T. T. Bazeley (?), Charles John, son of the late Marmaduke Tatham, Esq., of Poplar, to Louisa, eldest daughter of Mr John Shores, of Blackwall."
One other "Times" citation, dated Friday, Jul 19, 1844 is of interest. The Thames Police arrested two "dissolute-looking young men", and Mr D. Tatham, of Newby place, Poplar, clerk to Dunbar and Sons was called to give evidence on oath. This case involved Tatham in a personal way and I will send the full transcription in another post.
I think this is likely to be Duncan Dunbar Tatham.
Regards,
Denise
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This is really starting to put some flesh on the bones!
cheers
Paul
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Hello Paul E and everyone,
I will now add some juice to the flesh!
Citation in "The Times", Friday, July 19, 1844:
Category: Law
"THAMES POLICE- Two dissolute-looking young men, named John Cowhurst and Henry Burrell, were charged with endeavouring to extort money under the following circumstances:-
Mr D. Tatham, of Newby-place, Poplar, clerk to Dunbar and Sons, stated, that on the previous evening he was walking with a young lady down Copperas-wall, Poplar, and they were followed by some men and boys, the two prisoners being of the party. When they got further on they sat on a bank to rest, and the lady, suffering from a head-ache, took off her bonnet. Hearing a noise behind, complainant turned round and saw the prisoners and four others, who threatened him with exposure if he did not give them money for beer. Being conscious that they could not say anything of which he needed to be afraid or ashamed, he walked away with his companion, and steadily refused to comply with their request. Still, however, they pursued, and threatened to follow him all the way home. As they went along he met with a constable, and the prisoners were taken into custody.
The prisoners insisted that they caught the lady and gentleman in a very indecent position, the latter having her bonnet and shawl off. They threatened to give them into custody for indecent exposure, and followed them for that purpose, but the complainant meeting a constable preferred the first charge. They denied that any threats had been used for the purpose of extorting money, but Burrell admitted having heard some mention of beer.
Mr Tatham solemnly asserted on his oath that no indecent liberties had been taken, and that the lady who accompanied him was most respectable.
The prisoners were ordered to put in bail for their good behaviour."
Hmmm!
Denise
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The prisoners insisted that they caught the lady and gentleman in a very indecent position, the latter having her bonnet and shawl off.
Those were the days, eh? Not too far away from the hijab!
cheers
Paul
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Oh Denise, what a story - your comment of 'Hmmm!' is so apt ;D
The mind boggles at what the (of course) unnamed 'most respectable' lady was doing in such a compromising situation with young Mr TATHAM ;) By which, of course, I mean nothing more than being out walking unchaperoned by the Thames in the evening with a young gentleman - not that I am suggesting that they were anything more than platonic friends ;)
Ah well, obviously matters had not progressed far - only the bonnet and shawl having been removed.
And, equally obviously, two 'dissolute-looking young men' must have been up to no good cf a respectable clerk to Dunbar and Sons and, by his own admission, a 'most respectable' lady ::)
What a circus! I bet that Duncan Dunbar TATHAM was a hero to his mates!
JAP
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One wonders just how far this would have gone if they had not been interrupted by those poor beer starved young men. Might she even have gone so far as to give him a glimpse of her ankles :o
Al
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Perhaps we now know why Mr Duncan Dunbar TATHAM was shipped off to the colonies ...
JAP
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Hello everyone,
I weakened and purchased the marriage record of Duncan Dunbar Tatham and Mary Ann Judd, hoping that Duncan's occupation was noted, as was the case in other (later) Victorian colonial records. Disappointment I'm afraid.
"Marriages Solemnized in the Parish of St Peter's Melbourne County of Bourke in the Year 1853
Duncan Dunbar Tatham of this Parish, Bachelor, Mary Ann Judd of this Parish Spinster married in the Church by License with consent of... this seventh day of June in the year 1853 By me W T Lord
The Marriage was solemnized between us Duncan Dunbar Tatham Mary A Judd in the Presence of W K Tate of Smith Street Collingwood, Matilda Tate of (Ditto)".
Reg. # 29944, page 236.
All the best,
Denise
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Molison-Sholes-Tatham-Dunbar
Hello Manchester Rambler, Liverpool Annie, Mary A, Paul E, Al, Holly, JAP, Berlin Bob and everyone.
Thank you for allowing me to participate in this challenge which was meant to end some time ago. This is probably my last entry for this subject.
Marmaduke Tatham, Surgeon of Poplar, was indeed the brother of Christopher Tatham of Poplar, Surgeon and husband of Justina Dunbar before her early demise.
In his will Marmaduke identifies his four chiuldren, Marmaduke Maxwell, Charles John, Elizabeth Jane and Mary Ann. He also names his good friend John Shores of Blackwall, Gentleman, as one of the executors.
I believe but have not proven that the Christopher Tatham in Ceylon, mentioned in an earlier message on this site was the son of Christopher and Elizabeth Tatham. I also believe the Marmaduke Tatham, the only passenger on the Scoresby when it foundered in 1866 was this Christopher's brother. The Scoresby was returning from Colombo with an extremely valuable cargo of coffee, cinnamon and other goods. The two surviving crew members told the story of the overladen ship failing to handle the gales it experienced off the Cape of Good Hope (The Times, 29 November 1866).
If this is correct, 1866 was a horror year for my extended Gordon family. Elizabeth Tatham's sister Ann Clark died in Poplar that year, as did Ann's 9 months old grandaughter Edith Korff whose family was visiting from Sydney. I suspect the cholera epidemic which hit Poplar that year may have been the cause. In addition the 29 year old sister of Mary (Gordon) Korff's daughter-in-law died in the foundering of the London in a hurricane in the Bay of Biscay. The London was an iron ship and was carrying iron for the railways in Australia. Like the Scoresby it was said to have been carrying excess cargo.
I hope this gives a picture of the trials of our ancestors at that time.
Regards from
Denise
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Thank you so much for your contributions, Denise - they've added yet more interesting insights into this fascinating family.
Best wishes for your own continuing research!
Rambler
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I hope this gives a picture of the trials of our ancestors at that time.
Regards from
Denise
It certainly does! Thanks, Denise - hope to see you elsewhere on Rootschat in the near future!
cheers
Paul
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Thank you so much Denise for sharing your family with us - it's been a pleasure !
Please don't be a stranger - maybe - just maybe - we could help you a little bit more!!
Annie :D
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Found this too, on IGI - still no connection to "our" Robertsons though, but obviously the families had several links over the years -
James Robertson McIver b.23/01/1817 Stornoway, Ross and Cromarty - Parents - Catharine Robertson and Lewis MacIver
This is the one mentioned by Nessie -
James Robertson MacIver b.30/01/1841 chr. 24/02/1841 Dingwall, Ross and Comarty - Parents - Evander MacIver and Mary MacDonald
If anyone is still searching for this Robertson MacIver, I have him and all his details in my family tree.
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Found this too, on IGI - still no connection to "our" Robertsons though, but obviously the families had several links over the years -
James Robertson McIver b.23/01/1817 Stornoway, Ross and Cromarty - Parents - Catharine Robertson and Lewis MacIver
This is the one mentioned by Nessie -
James Robertson MacIver b.30/01/1841 chr. 24/02/1841 Dingwall, Ross and Comarty - Parents - Evander MacIver and Mary MacDonald
If anyone is still searching for this Robertson MacIver, I have him and all his details in my family tree.
Oh, and I have the other one mentioned too!
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I have talked to a Peter Gilmour who lives in Chicago who has been researching the Gilmour side of this line. My Rankin family also comes from Mearns but I have never been able to make a connection to this family! I keep running into them along the way and have some info if anyone is interested.
-
Calling all subscribers to Ancestry.com ...
Now that the 1910 US Census has been made available, can anyone shed any more light on the whereabouts of the Robertsons at this time?
cheers :)
Paul
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(Particularly Claude....) ;D
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I don't think I could stand the stress - I'm still getting over last year !! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
wouldn't you know it ...... there's loads of Claude's now ........... :P :P
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If anyone's gonna find these Robertsons, its gonna be you, Annie - you're the RCMP of Rootschat! ;D
Paul
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Woohoo !!!!!!!!!! .... check this out !! :D :D :D
Are we going to start again !! ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,343897.0.html
Annie
Moderator comment: there are links on both threads - so that those who wish to "retire" don't keep getting reminders, please reply on the new thread. Thanks!
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I've already made contact with a few of you re the Robertson side of this thread – but now it's kindly been unlocked I'm going to see if I can reach more of you. Forgive me if you had all you could take three years ago, and ignore this post!
I am a descendant of Charles Macrae Robertson, b. 1833, Stepney, and when I came across this challenge I was over the moon and stunned and amazed by how much you achieved in such a short time. It's been a real help to me and given me loads of leads – thankyou very much. ;D
But here's the thing: I have a couple of mysteries involving Charles' family. It may be that too much time has passed, but I wonder if any of you could bear to think about this again?? In which case, read on.......
To remind you, if you're still with me:
The oldest brother was George, b. 2 Mar 1820, Stepney, with his twin Helen who died 1861.
Then came Colin Douglas, b. 23 Apr 1824, Ratcliff, Middsx, died 1862
Archibald, b. 3 Mar 1825 (I never found any further record of Archibald)
Hugh Moodie, b. 18 Dec 1828, Stepney, died 1865 in Derby, according to your researc
Agnes, b. 20 Dec 1830, Stepney
Charles Macrae, b. 25 May 1833, Stepney, died 1877 (suicide)
John, b. 23 Jan 1835, Stepney, died pre-1881
Mary, b. 27 Nov 1837, Stepney
Janet/Jane, b. 6 Feb 1840, Stepney,
James (Allan's father), b. 8 Sep 1842, Stepney, died 1877
You'll see that most of them died young, between 1861 and about 1877. The only one I know died at a good old age was George who hung on till 1905.
I found details of some of their burials in Toxteth Park Cemetery, and this is where two of my mysteries arise.
Colin Douglas is in a separate grave to the others, but with him is one James Robertson and James' wife Isabella nee Hamilton. He was born about 1799 in Scotland (but I can't pin him down) and they were married in Greenock Old and West in 1830. In 1851 he was a commission merchant in Toxteth Park, and I have found reference to a James, merchant, in Toxteth, in the 1825 Gore Directory of Liverpool. My problem is: how does he fit in with the family? I have built up quite an extensive tree, going back to C18th Bute, and I can't make a link, and I imagine there was one if they shared a grave. Or perhaps that's a wrong assumption....?
Also, in the main plot with George's family is an Esther Robertson, wife of Archibald Douglas Robertson. Archibald died in 1866 in the Rainhill Asylum and has a separate grave. Again, I'm presuming a connection but can't actually find one. Archibald was born about 1821 in Liverpool but I can't find his birth. In 1861 he was a pawnbroker (breaking the pattern of marine services and merchanting). Esther was also born in Liverpool ca. 1823. Who were they?????
I also need help with Charles Macrae's offspring following his suicide (by which time they were orphans).....
If anyone has read this far and has any ideas I'd be very very grateful!
Thanks so much,
Nick
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Sounds like a nice little follow-up challenge for the Christmas holidays.... ;D
Rambler
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ooh i do hope so!
::)
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Hi all,
I know this is a very old scavenger hunt but a new hunt is underway focussing on DUNCAN DUNBAR TATHAM.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,401760.0.html
There is additional information some may be interested in particularly what happened to his children Duncan John b1854 transcribed as Fatham and Justina b 1856.
regards
Robyn
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Hello Robyn,
I am delighted to know that you may have more information relating to Duncan Dunbar Tatham and his children. I am in contact with Gordon and Tatham descendants in Australia and England, and we would love to hear from you, via Rootschat or via email.
I see that you are researching Gordon in Scotland and hopefully we can exchange information on our respective lines.
Regards,
Denise, Sydney
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Apologies if this has already been covered but:
Edward St. George Wolseley, who married Hannah Mary Robertson (dau. of Colin Douglas Robertson and Elizabeth Jane Dale) is a descendant of Sir Richard Wolseley, 1st Baronet of Mount Wolseley.
He was born 31 December 1852 in Dublin and married Hannah Mary Robertson on 13 August 1877. He was the son of Rev. Robert Warren Wolseley, B.A., curate of St. Silas, Liverpool, and his 1st wife Georgina Nixon (dau. of James Nixon, of Prospect, co. Fermanagh).
Rev. Robert Warren Wolseley, was the son of Maj. Robert Benjamin Wolseley and Alicia Warren (dau. of Sir Robert Warren, Bt.), who was son of Rev. William Wolseley, rector of Tullycorbet and Clontebert, and his wife Jane Hulbert (dau. of Samuel Hulbert, of Cosham, Wiltshire), who was son of Sir Richard Wolseley, 1st Bt. of Mount Wolseley and his wife Alicia Molyneux (dau. of Sir Thomas Molyneux, Bt., of Castle Dillon, co. Armagh).
Source: The Royal Lineage of our Noble and Gentle Families. Together with their paternal ancestry. -- Joseph Foster, 1887
Further information is easily sought on the Internet.
Regards,
James R. Yeowell.
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If you need to know anything about, the gilmours and polloks, I have researched for 2 yrs, a parallel family of polloks in eaglesham, renfrew, and had to search the "rich" ones as well.
but I haven't got back past the 1770s .
the "poor" polloks, I really were researching were all farmers of quality, and they produced the great Scottish poet Robert Pollok , who died at the age of 27, having achieved great heights
Hi Kenjo, Just found your post re the Polloks and hope you might be able to help me. I have a Robert Pollock, pianoforte maker, born in the 1820s . at eaglesham, who married Elizabeth Leckie at Eastwood in 1852. I suspect that he is Robert Easton Pollock son Of John Pollock c 1790 and Helen Boyle.
His son, also Robert, emigrated to Brisbane, Australia.In a newspaper interview in 1895 he stated that he was a direct line descendant of the Polloks of Mearns and a cousin to Robert Pollok the poet, though this would have to be a couple of generations removed I wouod think. Can you give me any clues as to his parents or how he could be related to the poet please.
iIalso noticed your Gilmour interest. Elizabeth Leckie was the daughter of Robert Bailie Leckie and Margaret Gilmour. Do you know anything of this couple please? Even the tiniest bit of info would be appreciated, as, with all those Robert Pollocks. I am totally confused.
Many thanks, Marie in Sydney
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Marie, are you still there?
Your Robert Pollock was the son of Thomas Pollock and either Susanna or Margaret Manderson. I think it was Margaret. The IGI says Thomas married Susanna Manderson in 1831. However, in the 1841, 1851 and 1861 censuses, Thomas' wife's name is Margaret. Perhaps Thomas married both sisters.
Margaret and Susanna Manderson were two of the daughters of Robert Manderson and Susanna Jack. Robert and Susanna were married in Sep 1786 in Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland. They had Janet Manderson about 1791. She is my ancestress. She married Adam Clark in Mearns, Renfrewshire.
The next child was Margaret Manderson. She was born on 7 Jan 1795 and died on 15 Dec 1867. She definitely married Thomas Pollock at some point. I have the names of their children, but I don't want to make this post too long.
The other children were James Manderson, born 1 Jun 1800, Robert on 16 Jan 1803 and Susanna on 4 Feb 1807, all in Gorbals.
Aloha, Kathy
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Hi Kathy,
What a surprise to have an answer out of the blue! It all makes sense! Thank you so much. The Robert Pollock who came to Australia was a real con man and changed his name to Professor Robert Leckie Manderson-Pollock, so now I know where all of the names came from and have his corrrect parentage. Thank you so much. I would be most interested in any other manderson ancestry if you feel like sharing. My email is (*)
Thanks again for your interest and help. I am delighted!
Marie
(*) Moderator Comment: Personal details removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi Marie,
I'm new to rootschat and need to figure out how to do the PM required to send you my email address. Are you still on Ancestry.com? If so, you should be able to find my tree, "Margaret Clark Stewart and Family."
I'm attaching (I hope) the death certificate of Margaret Manderson Pollock.
Kathy
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Hi Kathy,
Welcome to RootsChat - to send a PM (personal message) to Marie you need to click on the green scroll symbol on the left hand side of one of her posts, under her username. This will take you to another screen where you can type your private message and send it. Marie will then get an email notification that she has a PM.
Hope this helps - happy hunting!
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I was just advised today that there is a somewhat old thread on the Robertson Family Tree (and Muir too I see)
I have published a book on my part of the Robertson Tree that seems to overlap with some of the names mentioned in the thread.
I would be happy to provide a link to the book if anyone is interested
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cool
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cool
Does that mean you'd like the link to the book, or just that it was cool that I did the book ?
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Denise asked me to add a piece of info she found to this thread:
Hello Manchester Rambler,
Well, 10 years have flown by, and I want somehow to report on RootsChat that I FOUND the mysterious Duncan Dunbar Tatham, one of the people mentioned in the 2005 June Challenge. I have forgotten how to enter this information, and wonder whether you would do so on my behalf.
Duncan Dunbar Tatham went to Ceylon where he died at Ambagamawa in November 1863. He was buried on 15 November 1863 at St Paul's Church, Kandy, Ceylon. I found this information when I was searching for someone else, so it was meant to be.
I guess it pays to never give up. I did share this information to other researchers, so perhaps this has already been mentioned somewhere on RootsChat.
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:D
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14 years later - this is a treasure trove ...
William Maule Molison was my great-great-great-grandfather (through his daughter Catherine who married James Adamson on 15 July 1852). I have inherited some of his belongings.
My grandfather pieced together his family tree (the hard way!) in the 1950s. I had come across Alexander Strachan Molison and his son Alexander Joseph Molison a few years ago through their connections to the Dunbar ship Edwin Fox, but I couldn't quite make the connection to WMM.
Many thanks for everyone's efforts on the challenge - mystery solved!
Jamie C.
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Welcome to RootsChat Jamie, wow glad we found an ancestor to help :D
Regards
Sarah