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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: JDJames89 on Wednesday 28 November 12 01:22 GMT (UK)
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I'm looking for a birth or marriage information for an Ann "Annie" Emrys who, according to the 1911 Census, was born in Morfa Bychan in about 1880. She married a man named John Jones (born about 1869 in Pentre) around 1905/6 and moved to London shortly afterwards. Any help would be appreciated.
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Hello - have found her on the 1911 with husband and children but have tried different variations on the previous' census. Nor can I see a marriage easily in Pentre; How sure are you that Emrys is the maiden name I can see it as a second name on one of the children but of course its just too early for the indexes to give the mother's maiden name - do you have a copy of her marriage certificate; that should give a father's name or maybe a copy of one of the children's birth certs.
Nesta
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Hi,
There is a marriage at Wandsworth St.Ann
10 July 1905
John Jones 36 Bach Dairyman father Daniel Jones(deceased) Miner
Annie Jones 26 Spins father David Jones Miner
Resident 2, Salisbury Road.
Witnesses William Jones, J.Jones, Mary C Jones and one unreadable.
Occupation of John and ages match
Cathy
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This looks like that pairing in 1901(together with an Emrys Jones)
1901 444 149 20
and the brothers(?) family previously:-
1891 4423 98 5
1881 5302 71 61
and,speculatively,David,Mary C and Annie in 1891
1891 4647 4 1
Regards
Roger
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More speculation-with the pair identified,could John have died and Annie then married the brother Emrys,then being referred to as "Annie Emrys"?
Regards
Roger
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The David,Mary C,Ann(i)e family in 1881 is at
1881 5554 57 30 (Ynys Cynhaiarn)
The occupants are given as born "Celynin"
I cannot find a current direct equivalent of the address(vaguely like Henardd) but on the original forms it is near extant addresses in the Morfa Bychan area such as Penrhiw,Moelfra and others.
Regards
Roger
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Hi
First post does not make it clear which Morfa Bychan is referred to - there's more than one in Wales. Have researched a lot on Morfa Bychan near Porthmadog, and can trace my family there back over 250 years.
Can you, JDJames89, supply what information you are absolutely sure of, either publicly or by PM. Can you quote the reference of 1911 Census info in the form County> parish ... etc.
Referring to existing replies:
A member of a family that I'm researching, who moved to Porthmadog early 1850s, was born 'Celynnin', and in this case it refers to part of the parish of Llangelynnin, Merionethshire (the other side of the Mawddach estuary to Barmouth).
Emyr
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Hi
Re CATH151's reply :
1881 census - Morfa Bychan, Porthmadog:
David Jones 43 Head Quarryman
Mary Jones 32 Wife
William Jones 18 Son Quarryman
Margrate Jones 9 Dau. Scholar
David Jones 7 Son Scholar
Lizzie Jones 5 Dau. Scholar
Mary C Jones 3 Dau.
Anne Jones 1 Dau.
Emyr
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Thanks, guys, for the leads. I’m still sorting through the stuff you all posted.
Sorry about that, I didn’t know there was more than one Morfa Bychan. The 1911 census lists Annie’s birth place as “Morfa Bychan, Caernarvonshire”. John’s is listed as “Pentre, Glamorgan.” The son “John Emrys Jones” on the 1911 census is Rev. John Emrys-Jones. Not sure when it started, but he didn’t use Emrys as a middle name but part of a double-barrelled surname his wife adopted and his children inherited. He is listed as “John Emrys-Jones” and his wife as “Helen Marise Emrys-Jones” in the England & Wales Death Index. His children are still alive.
I don’t know if Ceridwen ever used the surname Emrys-Jones legally though. In the England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005 for her first marriage to a man named Kenneth L’esty, she is listed as “Ceridwen” under the section for the surname Jones. She was still Lesty when she came to America in 1947, but her second marriage shortly after her arrival lists her parents as “John Jones” and “Ann Jones” (note this spot is supposed to list the mother’s maiden name). Her American death certificate lists her parents as “John Emrys” and “Ann Jones”, but I think this was a mistake. Double-barrelled names were not very common at all in America and I just figured this was a clerical error. Ceridwen’s obituary lists her parents as John and Ann Emrys Jones if I recall correctly (no hyphen). Both John and Ceridwen’s sons recall the grandparents as “John and Ann Jones”I believe they lived again in Pentre during at least the 1940s. Neither one died until sometime after the 40s.
There is something strange to the whole mess, however, as nobody’s really been able to track down anything further about John and Ann at all, so I am beginning to wonder if the surnames were actually switched or something? Maybe it was John Emrys and Ann Jones? Or maybe they were both Jones and the Emrys bit came in somehow else. The 1905 Wandsworth marriage is really interesting because the note I have saved from the England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 for Ceridwen indicates she was born in Wandsworth in 1907.
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Anyone think there's a chance that John Sr. was "John Emrys-Jones", he married an Annie Jones, and Emry's was John Sr's mother's maiden name?
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Hi
Forgot to say, 1881 census gives Celynnin as place of birth of all the family. Doesn't say the county. Unfortunately there's more than one Celynnin/Llangelynnin.
Emyr
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The family quoted for John Jones(1869) and Emrys Jones(1871) do track back to Pentre at the appropriate time:-
1871 5384 56 9
I can't find any evidence that John is born John Emrys Jones,and he doesn't appear in the family census data as such but perhaps the old maxim applies "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence".
It's probably a coincidence but there is also a marriage of Annie Jones to Emrys Jones in Pontypridd registration district in 1925.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Justin
I think we've clarified this some years ago, but I just came across your posts re my grandparents: John and Annie Jones. And they are of course Ceridwen's and my father John's parents.
Great research by you and others. My father was John Emrys ( first names) Jones. Emrys came from his uncle I'm pretty sure - one of John senior's brothers. As you say, my father added Emrys to Jones and made that the surname sometime after my birth in 1942.
Annie was also a Jones. And from Morfa Buchan. She and John snr. married in Wandsworth. They moved to Pentre in the Rhondda valley of South Wales in the late 1930s I think. Annie, according to Ceridwen, claimed descent from a Baron Owen. I've not traced this. All best. Michael