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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: GrannyFlower on Saturday 24 November 12 08:16 GMT (UK)
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Thomas William Joshia Chandler born Jersey 1852, and Ellen Munday born 1856, Durham, Eng were married at St Andrews Church ChCh, New Zealand aged 25 & 21 on the 27th Aug 1877.
Their first child was born on the 4th Sept 1878 and baptised William Arthur Chandler, but on the 20th Nov they reg a child born on the 4th of Sept as Henry Arthur Chandler. Birth place Glen Tui, Rangiora. ???
They had that we know of 3 more children
Thomas Joshia? 6th June 1880 there is a death for a Thomas Joshia aged 6 weeks in 1880. Can any one confirm a date and where this baby died?
Clara Constance 27th June 1881
Ellen Gertude 6th May 1883.
My Great grand father was William Chandler. His father is named as Thomas Chandler and his mother as Nelly Chandler, He had two younger sisters Clara and Nelly.
We are trying to connect this first family to what we know of Williams family. Nelly or Nellie was a common name for Ellen.
William and the girls were taken off the streets of Wellington and raised in orphanages, William in Nelson and the girls Wellington we have a report from the Evening Post 5/1/1888 detailing young Williams 'arrest'
Clara called herself Clara Mary and William lists a Miss Mary Chandler (sister) as N.o.K. on his Boer War records.
We know only about this family after they were taken into care. Details of their parents, births and any other details are sketchy and change from child to child.
So any help on Nelly/Nellie or Ellen Munday, Thomas William Joshia Chandler, and any of their children would be great. or even if you can find some thing about our family pre orphanage days.
We know Thomas William Joshia Chandler was living in Wellington in Bute St in 1890.
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hello,
By narrowing down the dates on BDM's the exact date was 16/7/1880
1880/2642 Chandler Thomas Josiah 6W
Cheers Janette
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This could be another child
1879/3102 Chandler Henry Arthur to Ellen and Thomas
Cheers Janette
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There is a Thomas William Chandler arriving in NZ
name: Thos Wm Chandler
event: Immigration
arrival date: 1875
event place: New Zealand
gender: Male
age: 21
marital status:
origin: Kent
occupation: laborer
estimated birth year:
ship: Hannibal
departure date: 11 Mar 1875
ship's arrival port:
arrival port: Nelson
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11589-144364-50?cc=1609792&wc=MMBP-4MN:829545216
Cheers Janette
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Thanks Janette,
All helpful, We had William Arthur and Henry Arthur as born same year, same day. one baptised, one registered. Was there an infant death for Henry?
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Hello...
You said your g-grandfather William had two younger sisters Clara and Nelly. Do their ages tie in with the 1881 and 1883 births that you've found for Clara Constance CHANDLER and Ellen Gertrude CHANDLER. (I'm assuming your g-grandfather William was born in 1878)
Have you traced the two younger sisters Clara and Nelly. If so, what info is on their marriage and death certificates.
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My Great grand father was William Chandler. His father is named as Thomas Chandler and his mother as Nelly Chandler. He had two younger sisters Clara and Nelly.
Just to clarify, did this info come from orphanage records or do you have BDM certificates.
Regards
Beg
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Thanks Janette,
All helpful, We had William Arthur and Henry Arthur as born same year, same day. one baptised, one registered. Was there an infant death for Henry?
I suspect William and Arthur are the same person,maybe the person registering the birth was not a parent and got the names mixed up
Cheers Janette
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The information for the 'suspected family' comes from research done by my mother and aunt, through other people looking things up for them, years ago.
Because 'our' William, Clara and Nellie were so young when taken into care they knew very little about their parents. their marriage certs. have either William(1) or Thomas(2) as their fathers name and Nelly (1) Elizabeth (1) and no name at all(1) for their mother! They had no birth certs so their ages were just a guess.
On the 'suspected family' we have a bankruptcy notice from a ChCh newspaper for T W Chandler 1880, a Mr Chandler in court for wife desertion 1881.
A Mrs Chandler and children (3) travelling to Wellington on the Mawheru 1884. no first names of course!
Then later in Wellington 1887, a report of the arrest of a Thomas Chandler again for wife desertion. Just after little William and the girls were put into care. This Thomas was an Expressman (horse and cart) as was Thomas William Joshia Chandler, Bute St, Wellington, 3yrs later, in the 1890 census so that shows he was living and working in Wellington by then.
Death of a Nelly Chandler, of 'Delirium tremens and pneumonia' Wellington but aged 30, 1893, and Ellen Munday would have been 37. No Next of Kin, so did they just guess an age? and if it wasn't her where did she go?
Lots of info but no positive ties
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Hi again...
Can I just check that this is your g-grandfather...
William CHANDLER d.1914
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-16409-59432-28
PapersPast
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sby/
BDM NZ says age 37 at death but many of the newspaper reports say age 35. This gives a year of birth of 1879.
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Is it definite that your g-grandfather fought in the Boer War. Could it be a namesake. Or has an elderly relative told you that he/she remembers him coming home from the war (or some family story like that)
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Their first child was born on the 4th Sept 1878 and baptised William Arthur Chandler
The Boer War record for William CHANDLER says "Religion; Weslyan". Is this the religion of the above baptism certificate.
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Have you the baptism records for the two sisters.
Regards
Beg
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Hi
We have nothing on our William, Clara and Nelly pre orphanage days and records from Social welfare only say that their mother was Nelly and she said (which we suspect was false) that her husband had left the colony. She also said she wanted the children to be raised in a Catholic orphanage but that may have been location more than religion
William died aged 35, he was a butcher at Renwick and accidentally shot himself climbing through a fence when returning home from killing a pig.
He served briefly in the Boer war coming home a Lance Corporal. ( I think he spent more time on the journey there and back than in Africa)
The Thomas Chandler that was charged with wife desertion in Wellington agreed to pay towards the maintenance of his wife and children so perhaps there may be a lead there as he would have to pay the orphanage if the children were no longer with their mother.
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On the 'suspected family' we have a bankruptcy notice from a ChCh newspaper for T W Chandler 1880, a Mr Chandler in court for wife desertion 1881.
A Mrs Chandler and children (3) travelling to Wellington on the Mawheru 1884. no first names of course!
Then later in Wellington 1887, a report of the arrest of a Thomas Chandler again for wife desertion.
Hi Granny Flower
Are you able to give us the exact newspaper references for the above "wife desertion" cases, please ?
~ Lu
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Hi
I see you have a thread also on the 'familytreecircles' website which gives a little additional information.
Not sure though whether you'd found the following advertisement ?
"Press" (ChCh) - 16 January 1882 - page 4 / column 7
.... will not be responsible for any debts or engagements contracted by my wife ELLEN CHANDLER ... after this date ....
(dated) January, 12th 1882
(signed) THOMAS W. CHANDLER
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[Note: Often the above type of advertisement was published when a wife had left her husband / or the family home. ]
~ Lu
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That's a wonderful piece, Lucy2 We don't have that advert and their Ellen Gertrude was born 1883!
Rangiora case was May 1881 just a couple of months before Clara's birth but only have a news paper snippet with just Mr Chandler (no initials) and the Wellington case The Warrant was issued on the 15th Nov 1887, arrested in Dannevirke, court case: June 1888.
William collected off the street 1.1.1888
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There is a death for a Thomas Joshia aged 6 weeks in 1880. Can any one confirm a date and where this baby died?
Hi again...
Just for the record :-)
Was visiting the library so I checked the birth registration districts for the children you've mentioned.
There was no birth for an Arthur William CHANDLER registered in 1878
BDM NZ Births microfiche - 1879/510 - Henry Arthur CHANDLER - Rangiora Q1
BDM NZ Births microfiche - 1880/2784 - Thomas Josiah CHANDLER - Rangiora Q3
BDM NZ Deaths microfiche - 1880/1249 - Thomas Josiah CHANDLER - Rangiora Q3
BDM NZ Births microfiche - 1881/2797 - Clara Constance CHANDLER - Christchurch Q3
BDM NZ Births microfiche - 1883/1759 - Ellen Gertrude CHANDLER - Malvern Q2
You might want to start a "Christchurch Catholic Baptisms CD look-up" thread. No harm in asking :-)
Regards
Beg
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Their first child was born on the 4th Sept 1878 and baptised William Arthur Chandler, but on the 20th Nov they reg a child born on the 4th of Sept as Henry Arthur Chandler. Birth place Glen Tui, Rangiora. ???
Hi GrannyFlower
I'm guessing the above baptism you speak of, has been sourced from the Christchurch Libraries Index Cards (of Baptisms, Marriages and Deaths) ?
Can confirm their are no CHANDLER baptisms on the Christchurch Catholic Diocese Baptisms CD.
~ Lu
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Hi again
Do you actually have the Birth Certificate (or printout of), for the child Henry Arthur ?
[And do you have details of parents / their address, etc. from the baptism record of William Arthur ? ]
~ Lu
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No, just the information that mum and aunty were sent years ago.
St Andrews Church where they were married is Presbyterian.
In 1879 T W Chandler was a storekeeper at Waikari (insolvency notice).
I have a feeling that William Arthur and Henry Arthur are the same child. both born on the 4th of Sept, we had 1878 but that is obviously wrong for Henry Arthur so maybe William Arthur's bapt is the wrong year too. It's easy for mistakes to be made without copies of documents.
William A has Thomas and Ellen as his parents
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More information from my Mother.....William Arthur Chandler, supposedly born 4th Sept 1878, bapt. 20th Nov 1878 at St Johns, Rangiora.
Despite Thomas advertising he was not responsible for Ellens debts in 1882 He was the one who registered Ellen Gertrude's birth in 1883 :o
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I have a feeling that William Arthur and Henry Arthur are the same child. both born on the 4th of Sept, we had 1878 but that is obviously wrong for Henry Arthur
BDM NZ Births microfiche - 1879/510 - Henry Arthur CHANDLER - Rangiora Q1
Hi again...
1879 and Q1 simply means the event was registered in the first quarter of 1879. It doesn't mean that's when the event occured.
Likewise, 510 simply means the event was registered in the district of Rangiora, not that Rangiora was the district in which the event occured. (The registration district is found by looking up 510 in the District Keys of 1879, a companion reference book to the BDM NZ fiche)
In this case, I'm still betting that the 1878 baptism and the 1879 registration refer to the same event and that William and Arthur are the same child. Simply because you can narrow down the date of the 1879 registration on the BDM NZ website. And in this case the following birth can be narrowed down using the "Search From" and "Search To" boxes to 4 Sep 1878
BDM NZ Website - 1879/3102 - CHANDLER, Henry Arthur - mother: Ellen father: Thomas - d.o.b 4 Sep 1878
To further complicate things 1879/510 found on the BDM NZ Births fiche and 1879/3102 found on the BDM NZ website refer to the same event, even though they have different reference numbers
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Thanks Lucy for the info re the Baptism CD
Regards
Beg
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Ahhh wonderful it so great to have some experts on the case!!! :D
Thank you all for your hard work, It's such an interesting puzzle. Mum said our Clara and little Nellie went to St Joseph's in Wellington but when she made enquiries she was told all records were destroyed by fire. What a shame.
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Hi again...
For what it's worth, you should consider buying printouts of the four births and one death... assuming you have a spare $100 :-)
The "suspected" family may actually be "your" family but unless you get really lucky you'll never know from snippets of old newspapers. Having said that, accept that the $100 may be wasted
If you do spend some money, buy a printout at $20.40, not a certificate at $26.50
A printout is a scan of the actual register whereas a certificate is just a transcript of the register (so may contain transcription errors and you'd never know)
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Mum said our Clara and little Nellie went to St Joseph's in Wellington but when she made enquiries she was told all records were destroyed by fire. What a shame.
If you have a rough idea of the years you may find some info in the following Industrial Schools Nominal Rolls found at Archives NZ
Industrial Schools Nominal Rolls
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewEntity.do?code=8305
Then click on the "Records" tab
You'll need to start a "Wellington Archives look-up" thread to actually get any information.
Regards
Beg
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More information from my Mother.....William Arthur Chandler, supposedly born 4th Sept 1878, bapt. 20th Nov 1878 at St Johns, Rangiora.
Despite Thomas advertising he was not responsible for Ellens debts in 1882 He was the one who registered Ellen Gertrude's birth in 1883 :o
Hi again
Knowing that Thomas registered the birth of Ellen Gertrude 1883 ... does that mean that you have a copy of her birth certificate ??
~ Lu
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A cousin has done that search and while he found William he couldn't find the girls.
Perhaps the next step is elimination!
Clara Mary and Nellie Eileen Chandler (as the girls were named) both state they were born in Wellington on their marriage certs. but were they?
Clara Mary died 12th January supposedly aged 79. so that would put her born approx 1883
Nellie Eileen died 2 July 1970 aged 83 so that has her born ~1887
could some body please do a BMD search for us?
I'm not sure if this has been tried before but it's worth a crack! ;D
Lu,
No copy just someone wrote it all down for Mum (pre photocopier days!) and Thomas was the father and the person who registered.
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Hi GrannyFlower
I noticed on your other thread in this forum (Independent Islands - Jersey), that you said in respect of Thomas William Joshia CHANDLER ... by 1877 he was living in New Zealand and on his marriage certificate he states his place of birth as Jersey, UK ...
Prior to October 1880 though, the information recorded on New Zealand marriage certificates, did not include "place of birth / or parental details" for the bride and groom.
* Just curious then to know where you got the information "Thomas William Joshia CHANDLER - born Jersey ... Ellen MUNDAY - born Durham", from ?
~ Lu
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Hi
ooops >... our just posts, crossed. :D
So I expect that answer to my last question will be similar (in that the info is from notes from"pre-photocopier" days )?
~ Lu
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A cousin has done that search and while he found William he couldn't find the girls.
Perhaps the next step is elimination!
Clara Mary and Nellie Eileen Chandler (as the girls were named) both state they were born in Wellington on their marriage certs. but were they?
Clara Mary died 12th January supposedly aged 79. so that would put her born approx 1883
Nellie Eileen died 2 July 1970 aged 83 so that has her born ~1887
could some body please do a BMD search for us?
Hi GrannyFlower
From what you've more recently told us (info is from "pre-photocopier" days), it seems likely that the person who sourced the information, did so many years ago when it was possible, by paying a small fee, to make an inspection of BDM records. ??
Sadly that system no longer applies :( ... and you'll need purchase copies of records direct from NZ BDM.
~ Lu
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You're right Lu, It was church records this came from, apparently not a BDM record ( should check my facts better :))
I also came across it in an 'Ellen Munday' google search, on a Munday marriages web site.
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Archives hold many of the old registers that I assume were at the Courthouses
If there are records you can't find
eg
Years
Rangiora Birth Register (R221672) 1880 - 1883
Item ID Agency Series Accession Record group Box / Item Sep Record no. Part Alternative no. Record type
R221672 CAHP 12105 CH831 3 / text
more detail…
RECORD SERIES period responsible
12105 Rangiora Birth Registers more detail…
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=221672
To gain access to these restricted records you have to follow the process..but if you really want to know you could explain that there is not a copy at BMD
Just a longshot
Bye
Althea
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Hi again...
I was reading KGarrad's reply in your thread on the Jersey board...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,625186.msg4732755.html#msg4732755
...and I wondered if you'd given any thought to DNA testing, specifically the Y-Line DNA test. This is the test which checks the male lineage. Apparently something gets passed down from father to son and remains pretty much unchanged, generation after generation.
As I'm sure you know, there are direct male descendants of "Boer War William" living down in the South Island. If one or two of them were keen (and for "keen" read "has a spare $300") you could ask for a sample of his DNA which would include whatever it is that gets passed down in your line from CHANDLER father to CHANDLER son.
Once you have that you could either get involved with the CHANDLER Family DNA Project...
http://chandlerfamilyassociation.org/dna.html
...or find a living male relative of the four year old Thomas W CHANDLER of St Hellier, Jersey (found by KGarrad) and ask if he minds comparing his DNA to your South Island DNA.
Initially you'd need to head backwards two generations to David CHANDLER (1809-1868), the grandfather (http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/9138241/-798235517) of four year old Thomas but from there it's a pretty straight run through lots of direct male descendants to the 1911 census of England and Wales. Then it's just a case of finding a male CHANDLER from the next generation (i.e born 1940-ish) and asking him for a comparison DNA sample. Easy :-)
I had a play around on ancestry.com at my library and managed to find the 1976 death in Coventry of a direct male descendant. If a son is mentioned in his death notice he could be interested in helping you. Or may know one of his male relatives who is interested.
No harm in looking into it (which sounds like famous last words :-)
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Totally appreciate that DNA testing is not a simple option. But as long as you're aware that it is an option which might help bridge the gap left by the orphanage.
And here's a BIG DISCLAIMER :-)
I've had absolutely no experience with DNA testing. The closest I've come to it is typing "DNA testing" into google. So feel free to ignore this post. No offense will be taken in the slightest :-)
Regards
Beg