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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: johngosling on Tuesday 20 November 12 22:37 GMT (UK)
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Hello all,
Might anyone have encountered my Dale family of North Shields?
I'm particularly interested in learning if anyone has access to trade directories for North Shields, and can see if the name Dale crops us as a "Slater and Tiler".
Trade Directories are pretty obvious, but I was wondering if any other records might have survived that would allow me to piece together anything more on their business.
I was motivated to think this by the recent discovery of a newspaper article from 1870, which relates to the building of a United Methodist Chapel (I don't necessarily think any of my Dales were Methodists) at Shank House colliery, Cramlington, which appears to have had it's roof constructed by a Mr Dale, slater of North Shields. So I'm sure this would have been either great granddad or grand uncle, John Golightly Dale.
My grandfather, great grandfather, great grand uncle, and several other siblings were all in the trade.
Edward Mowbray Dale (1857-1959), my grandfather, had quite a successful business on Tynemouth Road. I have a lovely picture of his Horse and Cart outside the premises, the horse all decked out, and the cart with a roof built on it - I believe it won awards in various parades.
His father, also a slater by trade, was George Henry Dale (1853-1906.)
If anyone else happens to be researching this particular Dale family, I'd be delighted to share info.
Regards
John
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John,i had a look in a couple of Northumberland Trade Directories and this is what i found.
1879 Directory
Slater
Dale Wm 68 Reed St North Shields
1883 Directory
Slate Merchant
Dale William 68 Reed St North Shields.
Hope that might help.
Steve
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And an earlier one from me -
From Kelly's 1858
William Dale, Slater, 57 King Street, North Shields
Also, In Whellans Street Directory for 1855 there is
Dale, Mr. William, Newcastle Terrace, Tynemouth and
Dale, Mrs. Jane, ditto
No mention in that one of a slater but could be the same people.
Christine
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Well, that is very very interesting.
You've both uncovered a new Dale, and I'm not at all sure who he is, but I am convinced there has to be connection to my Dales.
Here's what I have, and how perhaps this new William Dale fits in.
What I know for a fact:
My grandfather was Edward Mowbray Dale (1887-1959).
He married a Robertina Walker on Sept 12th 1909.
Edward was a slater.
From the marriage cert, I know Edward's father was George Henry Dale (1853-1906), also a slater, deceased at the time of his son's marriage.
George Henry Dale married Elizabeth Weightman on April 3rd 1880. The marriage cert confirms him as a slater, and gives his father as William.
This is where certainty starts to erode.
Ah ha, you might say, but George's father William, must be the William uncovered in the trade directories, but apparently not so. The marriage cert for George and Elizabeth gives William's profession as Mariner, and I have a good set of census records to support this.
So, I've looked up this new William Dale, slater, and there he is. Born 1832, and a slater all his working life. My William I have born 1822.
Now, it is perhaps telling that William Dale (1832-) lived at 68 Reed St - he's there in the directories, and in the 1881 census, but so too is my William, born 1822, at number 26 Reed St.
Co-incidence?
Surely not.
William (1832) is a "Master slater" and has 9 men working for him in 1881. I wonder, was one of those men George Henry Dale? Did George learn his trade from another Dale, surely related.
But where's the actual relationship between William (1832) and William (1822).
I'm not quite there yet, but there is one pointer.
I trace, with some degree of caution I must add, as I've not seen supporting documents with my own eyes, back to a great great great great grandfather, Shallet Dale, who married a Dorothy Metcalf.
The father of William Dale (1832) was John Dale (that looks pretty certain). Another of his sons was a John Phillip Dale, who named one of his daughters Augusta Mitcalfe Dale. Not quite the same spelling, but Mitcalfe, Metcalf sounds interesting, and always a good sign I think that a name gets repeat use. It screams out connection.
But that's where it all gets really muddy.
I thought I had something, when I spotted that in 1891, John Phillip Dale, now aged 56, was living with his Aunt, Jane Dale, aged 70. So born circa 1821.
I have a Jane Dale, 1823 daughter of Henry Dale, a son of Shallet Dale and Dorothy Metcalf
It crossed my mind that William (1832) might be an as yet unidentified brother to Jane, 1823, but I see other researchers have her married off, and still living with her husband in 1891. Another Jane Dale does pop up every ten years, born 1821, and unmarried, which fits with her living with John Philip under her maiden name in 1891, but that sends me off on another blind alley for now.
Bottom line, I just can't believe all these Dales are not connected, but for now the connection eludes me.
Perhaps one day, someone will read this, and know exactly what that connection is.
Hope this proves useful to someone one day.
Regards
John
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It sounds like one of those logic puzzles where you have to work out who lives in the house with the red door ;D ;D
Don't forget there's a Jane Dale living in Tynemouth with William Dale!
Where do these people give for their places of birth on the census records? It might be possible to sort them out via baptisms.
Christine
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Only one Jane Dale baptism near the early 1820's...30 Oct 1824, born 19 Jan 1823 d/o Henry and Jane Dale, Dockwray Square, Solicitor
Shallett John Dale baptised 27 Oct 1821, born 15 July 1821, and also the same day Dorothy Dale, born Dec 29 1819, children of Henry and Jane Dale, Dockwray Square, Gent. Henry and Jane had 2 William's called William Reed Dale, first one baptised in 1825, that one died, the second baptised 17 Feb 1827
Since Shallett seems to be a family name there is a Shallett Dale baptised 17 Aug 1819, born 3 Mar 1819 s/o John and Isabella Dale, Dockwray Square, Ship Owner, also the same day baptised William Metcalfe born 17 May 1817. This Barrington era baptisms gives more information: Margaret Dale, born 19 Jun 1812 baptised 4 Sep 1812 1st daur of John Dale of Dockwray Square, Ship Owner, native of All Saints parish by his wife Isabella Mitcalf native of this parish
John Phillip Dale baptised 1 Jun 1834 s/o John and Elizabeth Dale, Toll Square, Mariner. I believe this John and Elizabeth had a son William baptised 18 Mar 1832. Dorthea Maria Mitcalfe Dale was baptised 26 Feb 1837 d/o John and Elizabeth, Beacon Street, Mariner
I don't know if this helps any. I don't see a whole lot of connection between a Solicitor, Ship Owner, and Mariner with a Slater
All these parish records are available on the BT's for you to look at. There are a lot more children some burials.
Janis
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Yes, I agree. I've always felt misgivings about the Shallet side of things. As I mentioned, I've not seen sight of documents to support this connection. I'm just parroting what others have done, which is always dangerous. Next step I think is for me to order the birth cert for George Henry Dale. His parents should be William Dale, Mariner, and Mary Golightly, daughter of John, a Trimmer.
That will give me a solid paper trail in my hands so I can be confident of what I am looking for next.
I still remain immensely excited about the new William Dale uncovered in this discussion. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that George Henry must have been one of those nine men in the employ of William.
I wonder, going back to my original question (we've gone far further than I envisaged), might anyone know if things like apprenticeship records have survived in North Shields. Has anyone tried researching family from the perspective of their line of work? For instance, might local business associations retained records?
Regards
John
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If any have survived then they're likely to be at Tyne and Wear Archives or Possibly at Woodhorn.
I've had a quick look at the catalogue for T & W Archives but nothing is showing up for slater. I'm not the best at searching catalogues so you might have more success.
There is also North Shields library. Though I haven't used it I am told that their local history section is good and the staff very helpful.
Christine
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Some baptisms at Howard St. Wesleyan Chapel, North Shields.
Mary Ann, daughter of William Dale, Seaman, of Tynemouth in the County of Northumberland, by Elizabeth, his wife, was born 6th February 1817 and baptized 12th February 1817.
Jane, the daughter of William Dale, of Tynemouth, in the parish of Tynemouth, in the County of Northumberland, and of Elizabeth, his wife, who was the daughter of Edward and Frances Skelton, was born Jan 29th 1820, and baptized July 12th 1820.
Born April 18 1822. Baptized May 19 1822. William Dale, son of William and Elizabeth Dale, of Tynemouth, father a Mariner, mothers parents - Edward and Frances Skelton.
A baptism at Grimsby St. James. 1 Dec 1785. Eliz. daughter of Edward and Frances Skelton.
A marriage at Grimsby St. James. 12 Oct 1806. William Dale, Bachelor, Royal Navy,of HM Armed Brigg Providence stationed in the Humber, and Elizabeth Skelton. Witnesses John Skelton and William Bond.
In 1851 census, the father of William b. 1832, Slater, is John Dale, aged 43, Mariner, born Grimsby Lincolnshire.
So perhaps William 1822 and William 1832 are cousins.
Alan.
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A few more baptisms and burials.
Grimsby St. James :
Baptized 31 July 1809. Elizabeth, daughter of William and Elizabeth Dale.
Born 30 Oct 1811, baptized 2 Nov 1811. Frances, daughter of William and Elizabeth Dale.
Tynemouth Christ Church :
Buried 21 Sep 1813. Frances, daughter of William Dale of Tynemouth, aged 2.
Wesleyan Methodist Registers :
Margaret, the daughter of William Dale of Tynemouth, and Elizabeth, his wife, who was the daughter of Edward and Frances Skelton, was born at Tynemouth on the 23rd July 1813, at whose birth were present Elizabeth Dale and Dorothy Coxon of Tynemouth, and baptized at Tynemouth on 8th August 1813.
Then same parent and grandparent details for Sarah Dale, born 18 May 1815 Tynemouth, baptized 20th Jan 1819 at the Methodist Chapel, Tynemouth. Present at birth Elizabeth Dale and Margaret Ladler of Tynemouth.
Then same parent and grandparent details for Maria Dale, born 24 Dec 1818 Tynemouth, baptized 20th Jan 1819 at the Methodist Chapel, Tynemouth. Present at birth William Oxley, Surgeon, and Margaret Cranston.
Alan.
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Thanks Alan,
That's a poignant affirmation of the move from Grimsby to North Shields, terribly sad for poor Frances.
Interesting that there is the association with the Methodists. All the marriage certs I have for later generations are from the Parish Church of Tynemouth, which I take to be this one: http://www.northshieldsparish.org
So if these are also my Dales, I guess they must have moved away from the Methodist faith.
Ah yes, the William born April 22 1822 is the one I have identified as my great great grandfather.
That's a fascinating thought that I might be able to pin a Dale down to a specific ship.
I've done a lot of work this last 24 hours on the William Dale born 1932. His trail is really solid in the census records, as is his father John and mother, Elizabeth. I've found another member of this line with the middle name Mitcalfe, so that was clearly an important name to them, and as I mentioned early, the name Mitcalfe (various spellings) crops up in my research as well.
I've also been looking into a company called E E Dale, builders, who were based in Grimsby. Makes you think there's a possible connection there too.
Anyway, wanted to get a thank you written ASAP, but I'll continue to add in what you folks are finding and trying to pin it all together.
Regards
John
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One more baptism at Grimsby St. James,
John, son of William Dale and Elizabeth, his wife. Born 24th, baptized 25th October 1807.
That ties in nicely for him being John, father of William 1832.
Alan.
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I would also give North Shields library a ring .as they have found quite a few newspaper articles for me in the past,super staff,who will help you if they are not to busy,
I would think it a better idea ,if you could visit yourself ,as since they moved,a lot of stuff is stored away,
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Given the Mitcalf/Metcalf middle name in the Dale family in Tynemouth (slater/mariner occupation branch, as well as shipowner branch) it does seem likely that William, marrying Elizabeth Skelton in Grimsby, is the son of Shallett Dale and Dorothy Metcalf, born 29 Oct 1784, baptized Newcastle All Saints 17 March 1785.
However in Shallett Dales will, 1814, there is no mention of a son William. The executors and main beneficiaries are sons John, Henry and Shallet. Also mentions wife Dorothy, daughter Susanna Lawson wife of William Hall Lawson, and daughters Dinah, Frances and Dorothy Maria.
So either William was a prodigal son who ran off to join the Navy and missed out on his fathers fortune, or he's a different William.
Alan.
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Hello all,
I thought I would post a quick update.
Thanks to the very kind help on this thread, I think I am quite a bit further forward and it looks like I might have solved another one of the mysteries in my tree and firmed up quite a few of the connections we've discussed.
Put briefly (it likely won't be that brief by the time I have finished), we had long wondered why my grandfather was called Edward "Mowbray" Dale. The Mowbray just seemed odd and without context, more so because there were 2 other "Edward Mowbray Dales" in the tree. The name clearly meant something to the family.
Thanks to the excellent Wesleyan Baptism info furnished in this thread, the names Edward and Francis Skelton popped up.
Looking around, I found a marriage in Sculcoates on May 17th 1774 between Edward Skelton and Francis Mowbray. Bingo, that's a very compelling lead on the origin of "Edward Mowbray".
And the trail very nicely leads to Edward and Francis settling in Grimsby, having several children there including Elizabeth Skelton, who married William Dale in Grimsby, where upon they started producing children, the 3rd of whom, Francis (1811-1813) passed away in North Shields, where the family had by then relocated to.
Going back a step, it also seems very likely that the William Dale, likely to be my great great great great granfather, born 1783 and married to Elizabeth Skelton, did indeed have a link to the ship Providence, which saw some action including the capture of a Dutch ship in 1805. (Wonder if the prize money paid for the marriage?)
Now, here arises another problem. I've found William's Master and Mates certificate, which confirms his duty on the Providence as a Quartermaster, and a date of birth as 15th June 1783.
If anyone following this thread recalls, you might remember we discussed also my thought that there might be a connection to the Mitcalf (Metcalfe) family line, in that a Shallet Dale maried a Dorothy Metcalf on 12th Jan 1779.
You might also recall my connections to Slaters (the proffession) in North Shields and the fact that respondents on this thread uncovered a William Dale (1832), a master slater in N Shields.
This William looks to be a son of John Dale (1807), himself a son of William Dale and Elizabeth Skelton.
The fact that William (1832) was on Reed Street at the same time as my great great great grandfather in 1881 seems more than a co-incidence.
Also, the fact that John Dale (1807) named one of his children Dorothy Maria Mitcalfe Dale and one his son's named a daughter Augusta Mitcalfe Dale, suggests a connection to Shallet Dale and Dorothy Metcalfe.
It's "Mowbray" all over again.
But I can't quite join them up.
Shallet Date and Dorothy Metcalfe did indeed have a William Dale in much the right time and place, but it's a few years out. As you will recall, I have William's Masters Cert, and it states a date of birth of 15th June 1783. The baptism record I have seen for the birth of a William to Shallet Date and Dorothy Metcalfe places his DOB as 29 Oct 1784 (Baptism 17 Mar 1785). So a few years adrift.
So is it the same person, or is there another branching avenue that would lead me to connect to Shallet and Dorothy?
Anyway, hope that's of interest - I've found many avenues for research by stumbling on old threads on sites like this, so hopefully in years to come another Dale will find this helpful.
Regards
John
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The Durham Wills Project website has the following Probate Record.
"William DALE, mariner, bachelor, Merchant Ship Peter, of Dockwray Square in the County of Northumberland [Tynemouth, Northumberland]
Date of probate: 12 March 1804
Address taken from father's address
Administration bond, penal sum £3,000, 12 March 1804 (DPRI/3/1804/A20)"
I suspect that this is the William Dale, son of Shallet Dale. The will of Shallett Dale, 1814, mentions his property in Dockwray Square. A family tree on Ancestry has this William dying at sea, 12 Sep 1803, aged 18.
Alan.
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Hi Alan,
Arrgggg, that was staring me in the face, thanks for spotting that. I think you're absolutely right.
It's one of those classic family tree conundrums. I am convinced I have several strands of Dale tree that but for one little fact, would all connect up.
If I could only find a record for the birth of William, 15/06/1783, I'd have it sorted with a good degree of certainty.
Thanks again,
John
The Durham Wills Project website has the following Probate Record.
"William DALE, mariner, bachelor, Merchant Ship Peter, of Dockwray Square in the County of Northumberland [Tynemouth, Northumberland]
Date of probate: 12 March 1804
Address taken from father's address
Administration bond, penal sum £3,000, 12 March 1804 (DPRI/3/1804/A20)"
I suspect that this is the William Dale, son of Shallet Dale. The will of Shallett Dale, 1814, mentions his property in Dockwray Square. A family tree on Ancestry has this William dying at sea, 12 Sep 1803, aged 18.
Alan.
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Hello all,
I thought I would post a quick update.
Thanks to the very kind help on this thread, I think I am quite a bit further forward and it looks like I might have solved another one of the mysteries in my tree and firmed up quite a few of the connections we've discussed.
Put briefly (it likely won't be that brief by the time I have finished), we had long wondered why my grandfather was called Edward "Mowbray" Dale. The Mowbray just seemed odd and without context, more so because there were 2 other "Edward Mowbray Dales" in the tree. The name clearly meant something to the family.
Thanks to the excellent Wesleyan Baptism info furnished in this thread, the names Edward and Francis Skelton popped up.
Looking around, I found a marriage in Sculcoates on May 17th 1774 between Edward Skelton and Francis Mowbray. Bingo, that's a very compelling lead on the origin of "Edward Mowbray".
And the trail very nicely leads to Edward and Francis settling in Grimsby, having several children there including Elizabeth Skelton, who married William Dale in Grimsby, where upon they started producing children, the 3rd of whom, Francis (1811-1813) passed away in North Shields, where the family had by then relocated to.
Going back a step, it also seems very likely that the William Dale, likely to be my great great great great granfather, born 1783 and married to Elizabeth Skelton, did indeed have a link to the ship Providence, which saw some action including the capture of a Dutch ship in 1805. (Wonder if the prize money paid for the marriage?)
Now, here arises another problem. I've found William's Master and Mates certificate, which confirms his duty on the Providence as a Quartermaster, and a date of birth as 15th June 1783.
If anyone following this thread recalls, you might remember we discussed also my thought that there might be a connection to the Mitcalf (Metcalfe) family line, in that a Shallet Dale maried a Dorothy Metcalf on 12th Jan 1779.
You might also recall my connections to Slaters (the proffession) in North Shields and the fact that respondents on this thread uncovered a William Dale (1832), a master slater in N Shields.
This William looks to be a son of John Dale (1807), himself a son of William Dale and Elizabeth Skelton.
The fact that William (1832) was on Reed Street at the same time as my great great great grandfather in 1881 seems more than a co-incidence.
Also, the fact that John Dale (1807) named one of his children Dorothy Maria Mitcalfe Dale and one his son's named a daughter Augusta Mitcalfe Dale, suggests a connection to Shallet Dale and Dorothy Metcalfe.
It's "Mowbray" all over again.
But I can't quite join them up.
Shallet Date and Dorothy Metcalfe did indeed have a William Dale in much the right time and place, but it's a few years out. As you will recall, I have William's Masters Cert, and it states a date of birth of 15th June 1783. The baptism record I have seen for the birth of a William to Shallet Date and Dorothy Metcalfe places his DOB as 29 Oct 1784 (Baptism 17 Mar 1785). So a few years adrift.
So is it the same person, or is there another branching avenue that would lead me to connect to Shallet and Dorothy?
Anyway, hope that's of interest - I've found many avenues for research by stumbling on old threads on sites like this, so hopefully in years to come another Dale will find this helpful.
Regards
John
Im not sure if anyone is coming back to this post.
I am related to the Dales family od North Shields.
Although i live in Grimsby i have never founf any links to the Dale Family.
My father was William Dale Swan born in Seaham Harbour, His father was also William Dale Swan.
Dorothy Mitcalfe and Shallett Dale are my 4 x great grandparents
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I am related to the Dales of North Shields
Dorothy Mitcalfe and Shallett Dale are my 4 x great grandparents,
Although i came from Grimsby , I am unaware of any Dale family links being there,
Claire
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No info on Dales, but I'm descended from William Mitcalfe of Dockwray Square (1720-1806). His granddaughter Margaret Mitcalfe/Metcalfe married John Dunn, and their son Joseph Dunn married Elizabeth Weightman. I see you have Mitcalfes and Weightmans in your family - I think we might be distant cousins?
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Ah - I've just found that William Mitcalfe, in his will, left a bequest to his daughter 'Dorothy Dale', so it seems we are related!