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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ScallyW on Thursday 15 November 12 11:54 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
Hoping for some insight into a wee mystery I have with this person and one of her parents.
Rose Bina Hawkins was born 6th Jan 1888 and was baptised on 25th Jan 1888, St. Saviours, Battersea. Her parents were listed as William Hawkins (Labourer) and Mary Jane. She married in 1951 although she was together with her future husband as early as 1916 as that was when they had their first child. I also have her in 1911 as a servant to a grocer in South Hayling, Hampshire - the use of the unusual middle name of Bina shows that it is the right person as well as her giving her birth place on the census record as Battersea, London. What I can't find is any record of her, or her parents, in 1891 or 1901 nor of her father prior to his wedding.
The only appropriate marriage between a William Hawkins and a Mary Jane in the time scale and area needed is one on 4th Jan 1880, at the parish church in St. George the Martyr, Southwark. Both parties are listed as living in High Street, Borough. From this I can trace Mary Jane's (her birth would have been 1857, Deptford) family quite easily in earlier census records with the knowledge of her father's name, William Henry Godfrey. However, William's father is listed as Job Hawkins (Labourer), Deceased and no age is given on the marriage record for the groom to help tie him down.
I cannot find William living with a father named Job anywhere in the area prior to this marriage so am a bit stumped. I did wonder if they came from Hampshire - therefore explaining why Rose Bina turned up there in 1911 if they had returned to his stomping ground after their marriage - but I can't find them there either. In theory, it's possible that he died or they went their separate ways after the marriage but he must have been around some time in 1887 to have gotten his wife pregnant with Rose Bina!
There is a 1881 census record for a William 23, (1858, Vauxhall, Surrey, Plasterer) and Mary Hawkins 25 (1956 with only a 'ditto' under the Surrey part of the address and the district left blank) 108 Ingrave St, Battersea which could be them....and could not be them as well. Family history tells us that Rose Bina was an only child so we don't have the option of using siblings to find the family between their marriage and Rose Bina appearing in 1911 in Hampshire.
There is a William Hawkins listed in 1871 at Camberwell noted as stepson to a Thomas G Pocock and wife Rebecca A so thinking that we know his father, Job, was dead, I investigated her marriages but found her previous husband to be a Thomas Barret Hawkins s/o Marshall Hawkins - no sniff of the name Job Hawkins.
There is another William Hawkins listed in 1871 at Hackney with his age given as 14 (1857) with a birth place only as London, Middlesex and he is listed with his widowed mother, Maria Hawkins (1830, Exeter, Devon). Tracing this family back gives us a 1861 census with Maria living with husband William 36 (1825, Hoxton) and assorted children, one of which is a William Edward 6, (1855, born Haggerston). Haggerston is part of Hoxton so no connection to Vauxhall at all and the census was taken Stoke Newington so the area and the father's name doesn't match.
I'm doing wonderfully well at finding out who William Hawkins isn't, but not so well finding out who he was.
I can't find much info on anyone called Job Hawkins either, with no birth or death date or idea of where they lived, my brick wall seems very firm at the moment.
Can anyone help....?
Regards
ScallyW.
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To help anyone looking for the family in 1891,the address given on her Jan 1888 baptism was 34 Austin Road Battersea.
There is a also a baptism of an Arthur Albert Hawkins with parents William and Mary Jane at St Paul's Battersea on 26 May 1886.William is a labourer( as on Rose's baptism) and this time they are at 52 Henley Street Battersea.
Do you not have Rose's birth cert,which should tell you her mothers maiden name?
Births Mar 1888
HAWKINS Rose Bina Wandsworth 1d 591
Order for £9-25 from http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Carol
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Have you considered this family in 1891?
Living at 21 Longcroft Camberwell,
William Hawkins 40 widowed general labourer b Pewsey Wilts
Louisa Hawkins 13 dau scholar b " "
Fred Hawkins 8 son scholar b St Mary's Bay Kent
Arthur Hawkins 5 son " b Camberwell
Rosy Hawkins 3 dau b " "
RG12/486 Folio 16 Page 23
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In 1881(with mum called Mary Jane!)
At 3 Devonshire Street Camberwell.
William Hawkins 30 head general labourer b Wilcott Wilts
Mary Jane Hawkins wife 34 b Deptford Kent
Louise J E Hawkins dau 2 b St Mary Cray Kent
Alice A Hawkins dau 1 b Camberwell
RG11/691 Folio 118 Page 79
Perhaps this death? Although the age isn't right.
Deaths Dec 1890
Hawkins Mary Jane age 36 Lambeth 1d 243
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1901 10 Derney Road Camberwell
William Hawkins 56 wid day lab Camberwell
Arthur son 14 carriers boy? same
Rose 13 same
Ciderdrinker
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@ carol8353 & ciderdrinker
Thanks for the replies.
Unfortunately we know that Rose Bina was an only child so none of the William & Mary Jane families listed with other children can be connected to her.
The death in 1890 could be the mother - ir would tie in with the census records of the family you listed anyway - although in Q4 of 1890 my Mary Jane Hawkins would have been a couple of months shy of turning 34 having been born in Jan of 1857. Not impossible as a mistake could easily have been made by the person who reported her death.
We don't currently have Rose Bina's birth certificate because we thought we had her parents confirmed as Hawkins/Godfrey and in the trees I've found that contain Mary Jane as a daughter, there are no alternative marriages for her to someone else to sway us from our conclusions. I'll certainly check out the census records mentioned though and go back and confirm that we do know she had no brothers or sisters to at least properly discount these names.
Thanks.
ScallyW.
Edited to add:
Re the address on the baptism record.... unfortunately I have no idea of what enumeration district this would have come under in 1891 - and there are roughly 100 to choose from for Battersea in that year - so a mamouth task to try and find that precise address to see if they are still there....
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Edited to add:
Re the address on the baptism record.... unfortunately I have no idea of what enumeration district this would have come under in 1891 - and there are roughly 100 to choose from for Battersea in that year - so a mamouth task to try and find that precise address to see if they are still there....
Not a mammoth task at all- I looked the address up in the 1891 census on Find My past and they are not there.
You really should get her birth cert as it's the only 100% definite record that you can get at this stage. I would not set too much store by other people's trees on Ancestry or any other such website- one person makes a mistake and everyone picks it up as FACT.
I'm afraid I'm old school- get all the certs you can to confirm facts. That way you won't go searching up the wrong tree.
How do you know that her parents actually did marry..........she didn't till she was much older ;D
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Good Afternoon
1871 9 Andrew St Bromley St Leonard
Job Hawkins 33 labourer Wiltshire
Elizabeth 29 WiltshirE
1881 32 TAPLEY sT bROMLEY
Job Hawkins 45 dock labourer Wilcott Wilts
Elizabeth 39 same
and 1891 no 27 Tapley St
Job Hawkins death Poplar June 1897 1c 325 age 59.Possible marriage Poplar June 1865 to Elizabeth Pearce 1c 1195(18.6.1865 All Saints lab Moule st lab s of Job gardener and Elizabeth Pearce Cotton St s of John lab)I do know it's after William's birth but some couples did marry after they had children.
1851 Wilcott
Job Hawkins 44 gardener Willcott
Betty 45 Erchant Wilts
Thomas 25 ag lab
James 20
John 16
Honor 14
Job 12 ag lab
Henry 9 ag lab
William 6
George 5
Ann 3
Mary 3months
In 1841 the family are at the same place.
They may not be the right couple but somethings do fit.
Ciderdrinker
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Unfortunately we know that Rose Bina was an only child so none of the William & Mary Jane families listed with other children can be connected to her.
I am unsure how you "know" this with no census etc records to show . . . .
do you mean that Family stories passed down have said this?
I think you will find that, whilst sometimes there is a element of truth in them, more often than not family stories cannot be relied upon!
As Carol says, you really need that birth cert t to check that her mums maiden name was Godfrey, and thus confirm if the marriage is the right one or not.
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I generally don't take a lot of notices of trees either but I will use them as a guide of what to investigate further but I like to confirm things myself rather than just follow the crowd when it comes to believing what you read.
And it's true that we don't know for sure that her parents were married but I don't think she got her 'late-marriage' genes from her mother... her 'husband' wasn't free to marry her while they were living together and procreating (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)... but they certainly presented themselves as husband and wife on the baptism record so should have followed form on the census records as well.
I have just found a census record for a William Hawkins (b. 1845, Wilcott, living in reg district of Pewsey, Wilts) in 1861 with his father Job. Hmmm... interesting. I wonder if Rose Bina thought she was an only child and told her future family that she had no family, although as the last census record shown below above has her at approx 13 years of age, she should have remembered siblings! ???
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Unfortunately we know that Rose Bina was an only child so none of the William & Mary Jane families listed with other children can be connected to her.
I am unsure how you "know" this with no census etc records to show . . . .
do you mean that Family stories passed down have said this?
Not stories as such, not in the sense of 'I heard a rumour that....' but a family bible that shows all the grandparents in it and their brothers and sisters and their parents names. So we knew before looking for records that Rose Bina's parents were called William and Mary Jane Hawkins, it didn't, unfortunately list the maiden names of the women.
We may have no option but to get the birth certificate but as I'm doing the research on behalf of a cousin's husband, they'll have to decide that and I've put it to her as an option. The trouble being, of course, that if it does confirm that she was a Godfrey prior to marriage, it doesn't really help us know more about her husband or his family unless they can find in their paperwork, as I said below, proof that there were other children born to the couple.
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Good Afternoon
1871 9 Andrew St Bromley St Leonard
Job Hawkins 33 labourer Wiltshire
Elizabeth 29 WiltshirE
They may not be the right couple but somethings do fit.
Ciderdrinker
That fits in with the 1861 record I just found so thank you for that.
Regards
ScallyW.
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In 1881(with mum called Mary Jane!)
At 3 Devonshire Street Camberwell.
William Hawkins 30 head general labourer b Wilcott Wilts
Mary Jane Hawkins wife 34 b Deptford Kent
Louise J E Hawkins dau 2 b St Mary Cray Kent
Alice A Hawkins dau 1 b Camberwell
Louisa Jane Elizabeth Hawkins married Charles Arnold on 5th March 1899 in Walworth Southwark.
I can't read the address other than 33..... her father is William Hawkins labourer and the witnesses were John Page and Florence Arnold.
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Alice Ann Hawkins baptised on 10th April 1881 at Christ Church Camberwell,parents William and Mary Jane he's a labourer and they live at 3 Devonshire Street as the 1881 census.
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Where did you get Rose Bina's date of birth from?
Just looked at her christening record and it isnt from there!
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@ Carol,
Thanks for the additional info.... I think while we're waiting on news for Rose Bina's birth certificate and the time it may take to come, a good option might be to investigate the lines of these 'siblings' and see if there is any knowledge in the family that there was a 'lost sister' who strayed from the fold. I suppose it's not impossible that as she did set up with someone and start having kids without the benefit of marriage, their may have been a rift in the family and each side cut themselves off.... ergo, her calling herself an only child when giving family details to her daughter in law who wrote out the bible.
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Where did you get Rose Bina's date of birth from?
Just looked at her christening record and it isnt from there!
From her death certificate in 1970.
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@ Carol,
Thanks for the additional info.... I think while we're waiting on news for Rose Bina's birth certificate and the time it may take to come, a good option might be to investigate the lines of these 'siblings' and see if there is any knowledge in the family that there was a 'lost sister' who strayed from the fold. I suppose it's not impossible that as she did set up with someone and start having kids without the benefit of marriage, their may have been a rift in the family and each side cut themselves off.... ergo, her calling herself an only child when giving family details to her daughter in law who wrote out the bible.
I am indeed doing that- and as most of them were quite a bit older than Rose ,they could have easily married and left home well before she really knew them.
I was hoping to find Rose as a witness to some of the marriages ,but she isn't.
I now have Arthur's and Fredericks,but no useful witnesses there.
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Interesting that the ARNOLDs seem to have had a daughter that they named Rosie Bina!!!
Maureen
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Interesting that the ARNOLDs seem to have had a daughter that they named Rosie Bina!!!
Maureen
Maureen you may just have found the link to join all this lot together ......well done !!!
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Thanks,Carol! Food for thought,anyway.
Maureen
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Interesting that the ARNOLDs seem to have had a daughter that they named Rosie Bina!!!
Maureen
What! What! What! :o Could you tell me where you've seen that..... please!
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Birth
Jan/Feb/MAr 1908
Camberwell 1d 945
Rosie Bina Arnold
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But I can't see any of the family on the latest census.
I've been trying to prove where her Bina came from in the first place and haven't been able to...........yet !
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Hope I can do this:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWRS-WNY
Spelling isn't the same but I'm pretty sure it's the same person.
Maureen
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You're doing the same as me!!!
Also ... I see in 1881 (found earlier) Louisa Jane ELizabeth age 2. Now . . . if the 1880 marriage is correct (to Godfrey) then it looks as if LJE was born before the marriage
However, here is her birth under Hawkins:
Oct/Nov/Dec 1878
Bromley ref 2a 388
Louisa Jane E HAwkins
and of course she married as HAwkins too, with William given as father
Doesnt prove that Wm and MAry were married by her birth, I know. But just gettin all the info together!
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Birth
Jan/Feb/MAr 1908
Camberwell 1d 945
Rosie Bina Arnold
Wow. Well, that's kind of a big sign from the Research Gods that there is definitely a connection going on here. I think it comes under the statistic of 'What are the chances....'!
What's interesting is that I've just found a 1911 record for this new Rosie Bina (listed as Rosie Viner) and it lists her mother as Louisa Jane Elizabeth Arnold but her father is listed as Mr Arnold with the names 'Fred Ernest' written in as an after thought.
Thank you Liz for the details and a big thank you for Maureen for bringing it to our attention.
Regards
ScallyW
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That census form is a bit of a dog's breakfast...but check out the signature at the bottom.
Maureen
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Well do you know I looked at that and discounted it (idiot Carol ;D)
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So what do we think girls and boys?
Is this the correct Hawkins family after all?
;D ;D ;D ;D
Frederick Ernest is Louisa's brother of course,hubby is Charles ,as the signature.
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So what do we think girls and boys?
Is this the correct Hawkins family after all?
;D ;D ;D ;D
INDEED.
what a team ;D
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Frederick Ernest Hawkins married Florence Jane Malyon on 2nd Sept 1908 at St Augustine South Bermondsey.
Frederick a bachelor aged 25,a plate layer of 77 Alderton Road? father William Hawkins decd labourer.
Florence a spinster age 24,of 57 Gallenfwall ? Road father William Malyon carman
Witnesses (his brother) Arthur Albert Hawkins and Fanny Sarah Page.
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To complete the family marriages..
Arthur Albert Hawkins married Ellen Bertha Byron at St Anne's Lambeth on 25th Dec 1909.
Arthur 24 a bachelor (can't read his job,possibly a paviour?) of 50 Blockhouse Street,Canterbury Road,Old Kent Road, father William Hawkins labourer.
Ellen 23 spinster of 3 Pleasant Place,Vauxhall,father Charles Byron labourer.
Witnesses Joseph and Edith (Waller?)
There is a correction in the margin dated 26th April 1915.
For Ellen read Helena and for their ages of 24 and 23 read 23 and 21 :o
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Personally I think we've cracked it and that my Rosé Bina was telling fibbies about being an only child.
Not quite sure what to make of Louisa's brother's name being given as her husband but the names were put in after the sheet was filled out so who the hell knows what was going on!
Thanks to everyone for their help on this. I'm going to pencil this lot in and see where it leads....
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Do let us know when the birth cert arrives with MAry's maiden name ....
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You say that Rose didn't marry till 1950's but she lived with him for years.............what was his name?
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I think it's cracked. ;D
Just as an aside-Fred* Ernest was the name of the ARNOLDs first son.
Look for Laura ARMOLD on A"try 1901.
Maureen
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You say that Rose didn't marry till 1950's but she lived with him for years.............what was his name?
His name was William John Marsh and the story was that they had to wait for his first wife to die for them to marry. Recent discoveries show us that although they waited about 35 years, they didn't quite wait long enough because his first wife was MIA but happily married elsewhere! We don't know if a divorce was obtained or not although William Marsh listed himself as a widower in 1911.
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Do let us know when the birth cert arrives with MAry's maiden name ....
The final proof would actually be the birth certificate of one of the 'siblings' showing the mother's maiden name...
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To complete the family marriages..
Arthur Albert Hawkins married Ellen Bertha Byron at St Anne's Lambeth on 25th Dec 1909.
Arthur 24 a bachelor (can't read his job,possibly a paviour?) of 50 Blockhouse Street,Canterbury Road,Old Kent Road, father William Hawkins labourer.
Ellen 23 spinster of 3 Pleasant Place,Vauxhall,father Charles Byron labourer.
Witnesses Joseph and Edith (Waller?)
Now that is quite interesting. The daughter of one of Mary Jane's cousins married a man called Waller. Not that particular forename but I haven't fully researched that branch yet.....
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Do let us know when the birth cert arrives with MAry's maiden name ....
The final proof would actually be the birth certificate of one of the 'siblings' showing the mother's maiden name...
As Rose Bina is your interest then surely it shoudl be her birth cert that you obtain?
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Do let us know when the birth cert arrives with MAry's maiden name ....
The final proof would actually be the birth certificate of one of the 'siblings' showing the mother's maiden name...
As Rose Bina is your interest then surely it shoudl be her birth cert that you obtain?
Yes, of course, but proof that she shared the same mothers maiden name would be the icing on the cake and irrefutable proof that it is one and the same family.
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But without sight of her birth cert you don't know her mothers maiden name?
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There's a birth of a Rose Bina Hawkins in Southwark in Dec 1901.
There's a baptism of the same child in Southwark on 25th Nov 1901 (DOB 7th Nov) to a single mum Alice Ann Hawkins.
Alice was the only sister I never found a marriage for.
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But without sight of her birth cert you don't know her mothers maiden name?
Yes, I meant get two birth certs... sorry I didn't make that clear.
There's a birth of a Rose Bina Hawkins in Southwark in Dec 1901.
There's a baptism of the same child in Southwark on 25th Nov 1901 (DOB 7th Nov) to a single mum Alice Ann Hawkins.
Alice was the only sister I never found a marriage for.
Yes, I saw that.... it does make one wonder why they all went about naming their daughters after who we suppose to be their sister ...? For one to do so is fairly normal I should think, for two to do it makes me curious...was it some kind of 'in honour/rememberance of' situation. And I'm really curious as to where the name Bina comes from in the first place!
Actually, I think I now have to wonder if 'my' Rose Bina was the one born in 1888 or the one in 1901.... no scrub that, her death certificate as Rose Bina Marsh gives her precise DOB.
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Maybe an ancestor was a Sabina, got shortened to Bina, and passed on?
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Maybe an ancestor was a Sabina, got shortened to Bina, and passed on?
Could be.... now that I have a lead on Job Hawkins in Wilts, I can look into that...
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, I'm always amazed at how lucky I am to find people willing to put in the time and effort to help solve these mysteries - and in one afternoon, no less!!!
Regards
ScallyW.
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I found a Bina Hawkins born in Wilts in 1856 on the 1871 census working as a servant ,but she doesn't appear anywhere else. So no proof that it's from the Hawkins side of the family.
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maybe thats Dinah Hawkins, bn Jan/Feb/Mar 1857 Pewsey Reg District
Thats the only birth I can see that's similar
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Dinah is in 1861 (RG9 1307 91 18) age 4
Born Manningford Common
which ties up with the Bina on 1871 - but I think the image for that is Dina ....?
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Oh well that's not where the Bina comes from then ;D
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Who knows? Maybe it is pronounced B-eye-na ( as in Dinah), not B-ee-na (as in Ribena) and derived from Dinah.
I see that as well as the job Hawkins bn Wilcott (where our William came from), there is also a Job Hawkins bn Manningford.(where this Dina comes from)
I wouldn't be surprised if they all are linked at some point further back!
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Well, I suppose we do have to take into account of the various accents spoken around the UK at the time and of the ability of the enumerators to correctly transcribe what they thought they heard... I have an ancestor in my own tree whose name was Methuselah but he was transcribed once as Matthew Sellah.
I've had a poke about for Hawkins in the Wiltshire area and haven't come up with any sign of another Bina with the name Hawkins other than the one Carol found in 1981. What is surprising, to me at least, is that there are quite a few Binas for other surnames.... I think it must be a common shortening of Sabina/Sebina although I did find a Rhowbina birth register as well. There are some records of one Bina Stone (nee Tibbolds) who was occasionally shown as Abinah/Sabina. It must be a common shortening in Wiltshire and that's how it passed down to my Rose Bina.
Edited to add:
There is a 1851 record for an Abinah Tibbolds (1842, Wroughton, Wilts) with sister, Honos (1835, Wroughton, Wilts) and I would think the sister's name is Honor - which is a name found a couple of times as descendants of Job & Betty/Elizabeth Hawkins with one of their daughters named as such. The wife of these children is listed as having been born in Gloucestershire while the father is also Wroughton. Maybe one of them is connected to Job's wife and both Bina and Honor are names that come down through their family.
I know not to take too much notice of user-loaded trees out there but you can pick up some clues to be investigated further. On one such tree there was a claim (with precise dates!) of the marriage of Job Hawkins to his wife but on looking at the Pallots Index record attached the wife's name was Ann Giddings, not Betty/Elizabeth Giddings. Yes, she could have had two names but only used one for the marriage but I don't really consider it enough proof. However, what was interesting in looking into the Giddings surname is that there are two baptism records for someone called Giddings of the appropriate age to be the wife of Job Hawkins.
Elizabeth Giddings, bp 10/4/1805, Urchfont, Wilts. Father: Mark Mother: Elizabeth.
Betty Giddings, bp 22/2/1806, Urchfont, Wilts. Mother: Honor Giddings.
And lastly....
There is a Sabina Hawkins (b. 1866, Wilcot, Wilts) listed in 1881, Wilcot, Wilts., living with grandmother Elizabeth Hawkins (b. 1803, Urchfont, Wilts), which is the same village listed for the wife of Job Hawkins f/o William Hawkins. Not sure yet who she is the daughter of but it's an indication that the name Sabina had been used in the family prior to the birth of Rose Bina in 1888. Yes, I know I've just shown that there were two females born in Urchfont in the same era with basically the same name but the chances of both of them marrying a Hawkins is remote.... and there is a Pewsey death reg for a Job Hawkins in 1874 (aged 68) so William's supposed mother would have been a widow by then.
All very fascinating and just a tad frustrating...
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just to throw a possible spanner in the works... or not....(!)
i came to this page as i'm searching for info on my ancester job hawkins, b1826 in chertsey, surrey. i know he had children called maria b1949 and henry b1850, but don't know about any more. job died in 1855... job was married to jane wooldridge in 1849 in chertsey, surrey, and there are also records for them in the area, in walton and hersham. i only mention it as maria's dau ended up in battersea around the end of the century, and it's possible that a relative or two might have followed....?
to be honest, i do have doubts about it; i don't know what happened to the rest of the family, but job died in chertsey.