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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: DavidTaylor on Wednesday 14 November 12 20:32 GMT (UK)
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Hello.. I am trying to piece together my McQuire family history.. It seems a possibility that at some point, Henry McQuire was known as Henry Muckaway... Whether he didn't like the surname Muckaway or its just a bad translation of McQuire (which is now seeming unlikely because its spelled Mackaway on his baptism and Muckaway on the wedding)
spouse: Caroline Spinster Sayer
groom's name: Henry Bachelor Muckaway
bride's name: Caroline Spinster Sayer
marriage date: 15 Aug 1840
marriage place: Halden, Kent, England
indexing project (batch) number: I00876-6
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1786506
If anyone has access to any information or certificates and tell me the name of Henrys father or any info on the wedding that would be great. Also if you have access to any census after 1841 ( I have the 1841 info on another post) that the family may be on?
Lastly, does anyone know if surnames had to be legally changed in the 1800s? If so, would there be a record of a possible name change from Muckaway to McQuire
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It seems by this link from familysearch.. there were 3 boys at least born to Elizabeth... No father is mentioned for any of them... Oversight or woman of ill repute??!!
https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Am*ckaway%20%2Bmother_givenname%3Aeliz*%20%2Bbatch_number%3AI00876-6
Anyway, hopefully a wedding certificate of one of them will shed further light on what's going on here..
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I have a transcription of the marriage details and Henry was of Full Age and a Labourer of High Halden, but there is a blank space for his father's name.
Sorry I cannot be more helpful. :(
Tony
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Elizabeth was Chr. 20 June 1797, High Halden to RICHD/MARY
(Familysearch.Org)
FreeREG has Richards Marriage to Mary POUNE 11 March 1791, St Mary the Virgin, High Halden
Possible Marriage for Elizabeth MUCKAWAY, St Mildred, Tenterden to John VELVICK, 16 May 1828
1851 Census Elizabeth VELVICK is born c 1798 Halden, Kent. Husband John is much older c 1775 Hawkhusrt, Kent.
They are living in Etchingham, Sussex
1841 they are under Velvet
Trish :)
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1871 Census
6 Poonah Place,
Tunbridge Wells, Kent
RG10/927/145/23
Caroline McQUIRE, 52, Head, Widow, born East Kent, Warehorne
Catherine McQuire, 20, Daug, Unm, Mantle Maker, born London, England
Albert H McQuire, 7, Son, born London
1861 Census
13 Grafton Place,
St Pancras, Middlesex
RG9/110/1/5
Henry McQUIRE, 48, Head, Mar, Cab Owner, born High Halden, Kent
Carolaine, 42, Wife, Mar, born Whareharr, Kent
George, 15, Son, born High Halden, Kent
Catherine H, 10, born Clerkenwell, Middlesex
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Hi Tony,
Are there Witnesses on the Marriage Transcription?
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1851 Census
Clerkenwell, Middlesex
HO107/1516/235/46
Henry McGUIRE, 38, Head, Mar, Porter, born Halden, Kent
Caroline, 32, Wife, Mar, born Whareham, Kent
Ann M, 7, Daug, born Halden, Kent
George, 5, Son, born Halden, Kent
Catherine, 3mths, Daug, born Clerkenwell, Middlesex
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WOW this is all great. Thanks Tony and Trish...
Tony, do the other 2 Muckaways, George and William also show no father on their certificates?
Now, the mystery is how they went from Muckaway,,, which obviously isn't a misspelling since I've seen it over multiple generations.. to McQuire. Which stands until today.. I can't believe Henry just pulled that name out of a hat.. Did name changes have to be done legally in those days?
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Apparently Richard and Mary weren't very good parents. Besides Elizabeth and her illegitimate children, she had a sister Mary Ann who ALSO had illegitimate children... Apparently there is something called "Bastardy papers" is which Mary Ann got money from the alledged father. Maybe there is something for Elizabeth as well... Also saw something saying the name at one time was MacAway.. Still not sure how Henry came up with McQuire.. :-(
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Now, the mystery is how they went from Muckaway,,, which obviously isn't a misspelling since I've seen it over multiple generations.. to McQuire. Which stands until today.. I can't believe Henry just pulled that name out of a hat.. Did name changes have to be done legally in those days?
I did try and explain before that it may just be the "accent" and how it was recognised/misinterpreted by various clergy/registration officers etc. ........... particularly if they were illiterate, as many were.
In this area of Kent it was common (still is in parts) for most of the vowels to be dropped and words so MUCKAWAY could be pronounced as MCWAI ............... eventually becoming Mc QUIRE see “I would say that several aspects of these older Kentish accents can be defined,” he explains. “The first is what we call yod dropping. So, someone speaking this accent would say toon, Toozdy and doo for the words tune, Tuesday and dew.
“Another way that you can define them is through the ‘o’ sound in words such as ‘go’, ‘road’ and ‘boat’, which in these accents would be pronounced ‘goo’, ‘rood’ and ‘boot.’
“And the last characteristic is the present participle or ‘ing’. This has three variations in English speech. The middle classes will pronounce each vowel and consonant in what we would think of as standard English, in urban areas the ‘g’ will be left off and in many rural accents, such as those in Kent, the ‘g’ will be left off and the ‘i’ replaced by an ‘e.’
“So to give you an example, for the word ‘running’ you get the middle classes saying ‘running’, urban speech producing ‘runnin’ and those with an older Kentish accent saying ‘runnen’.”
http://kent.greatbritishlife.co.uk/article/voices-of-kent-16852/
Basically, anybody could call themselves whatever they liked.
Saying that, there are a few odd McQUIREs dotted around in the records so there could be another explanation in addition to the above or maybe all the MUCKAWAYS were McQUIRES or vice versa ???
Personally, I wouldn't worry about the spelling/pronounciation, just that you have the right people ;)
Illegitimacy was quite common back then in some areas. In fact it is well known that the vicar of Folkestone was, at one time, offering a teapot (or similar) for any bride that went before the altar "without child". It was quite common for women/girls to have to prove their marriage worthiness by being able to carry/deliver a child before they were wed ;)
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Casalguidi! Sorry, I wasn't disregarding your theory.Its better than anything I have at the moment... I guess I just find it hard to believe that these illiterate people had the name Mackaway/Muckaway for a long time then in the 1820's someone couldn't understand an accent and wrote down McQuire.. Even if Henry Mackaway/McQuire couldn't read the mistake, wouldn't someone have caught on at some point? Why would the name carry on....When he told his son their name was Mackaway, wouldn't the son say, but dad why does your marriage certificate say McQuire?
Unless he just thought McQuire looked good and he kept it
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Christenings, Lamberhurst, Kent to JOHN/ELIZABETH Valvick;
CAROLINE 11 June 1837
JEMIMA 11 June 1837
EDMUND 11 June 1837
JANE 11 June 1837
(mass Christening)
+ a posible ALFRED 14 December 1828,Tenterdon, Kent
1841 Census we have in Salehurst, Sussex, under VELVET;
John, 65
Elizabeth, 50
Edmund, 11
Carloline, 9
Jemima, 7
Jane, 5
Charlotte, 1
Cant find Charlottes Christening
F/S has possible Marriages;
JANE Velvick to William STAPLEY 1857
CHARLOTTE Velvet to Caleb BALLARD 1863
Both in Sussex
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Hi,
The witnesses to the marriage were
Henry Hopper and Anne Maria Sayer.
It looks as if the illegitimate son William died as an infant.
Burial, High Halden
20 September 1820 William Muckaway Inf
Nothing further found on George Muckaway in High Halden.
Not only did Mary and Elizabeth have illegitimate children but so did their sister Susannah.
8 May 1821 Richard Muckaway s/o Susannah of High Halden (Single woman)
Whoops ::)
Mother Mary (to Elizabeth, Mary & Susannah) also had another child after the death of her husband Richard. ::) ::)
Burials of these parents
18 Nov 1798 Richard Muckaway 49 High Halden
17 Apr 1844 Mary Muckaway 83 High Halden
Just to finish with this eccentric family what could be the baptism of Elizabeth's grandfather ???
18 June 1749 Richard Mukaway s/o John & Elizabeth a stranger.
Tony :)
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Boy those Muckaway's sure must have liked a leg over! Even old Grandma Muckaway after the death of Richard?? They must have been the talk of the town! Maybe THAT'S why Henry changed his surname to McQuire!!
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Christenings, Lamberhurst, Kent to JOHN/ELIZABETH Valvick;
CAROLINE 11 June 1837
JEMIMA 11 June 1837
EDMUND 11 June 1837
JANE 11 June 1837
(mass Christening)
+ a posible ALFRED 14 December 1828,Tenterdon, Kent
1841 Census we have in Salehurst, Sussex, under VELVET;
John, 65
Elizabeth, 50
Edmund, 11
Carloline, 9
Jemima, 7
Jane, 5
Charlotte, 1
Cant find Charlottes Christening
F/S has possible Marriages;
JANE Velvick to William STAPLEY 1857
CHARLOTTE Velvet to Caleb BALLARD 1863
Both in Sussex
Hi there.. Although a bit off topic of Henry McQuire, I thought I'd look into these half siblings a bit.. maybe I can find a current day descendent who has heard stories of what was going on in this family!...
Velvick sounds foreign doesn't it? It seems like some of the family may have actually changed their name to Velvet. I thought the 1841 census may have been a mistake, but it seems that a couple of the kids got married under the name VELVET...
Besides Charlotte.. There was Edmund, who got married as EDWARD VELVET
Marriages Sep 1844
VELVET Edward Cranbrook 5 123
Marriages Sep 1863
VELVET Charlotte Ticehurst 2b 119
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Hi,
The witnesses to the marriage were
Henry Hopper and Anne Maria Sayer.
It looks as if the illegitimate son William died as an infant.
Burial, High Halden
20 September 1820 William Muckaway Inf
Nothing further found on George Muckaway in High Halden.
Not only did Mary and Elizabeth have illegitimate children but so did their sister Susannah.
8 May 1821 Richard Muckaway s/o Susannah of High Halden (Single woman)
Whoops ::)
Mother Mary (to Elizabeth, Mary & Susannah) also had another child after the death of her husband Richard. ::) ::)
Burials of these parents
18 Nov 1798 Richard Muckaway 49 High Halden
17 Apr 1844 Mary Muckaway 83 High Halden
Just to finish with this eccentric family what could be the baptism of Elizabeth's grandfather ???
18 June 1749 Richard Mukaway s/o John & Elizabeth a stranger.
Tony :)
Tony, who was mother Mary's child later in life and do we know if she was married?/Her age?
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Whoops. ::)
Not only did Mary and Elizabeth have illegitimate children but so did their sister Susannah, was incorrect.
In fact Susannah was only a half-sister, she was the child born to Mary Muckaway after Richard's death.
Her baptism in High Halden
25 December 1802 Susanna Muckaway d/o Mary.
It looks like she married in Bethersden as per :-
11 Nov 1826 by B William Down Ba otp Susan Muckaway Sp High Halden
Witnesses Young Waterman, John Bean (P.C.)
??? ???
Hope this helps.
Tony :)
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Hi,
The witnesses to the marriage were
Henry Hopper and Anne Maria Sayer.
Tony, I'm wondering if this is the same Anne Maria Sayer...
William Sayer
spouse: Thomas Horn
groom's name: Thomas Horn
bride's name: Ann Sayer
marriage date: 18 Dec 1853
marriage place: Herne, Kent, England
groom's father's name: Charles Horn
bride's father's name: William Sayer
indexing project (batch) number: I00357-1
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1836275
Do you show the witnesses for her wedding? Maybe a Caroline Mackaway or McQuire?
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I would suggest Ann(a) Maria SAYER more likely married George TAPPLEY 1849 Wittersham http://www.woodchurchancestry.org.uk/midkentmarriages/index.php
1851 Wittersham
George TAPPLY head mar 27 shoemaker b.Wittersham
Anna Maria wife 30 dressmaker b.Warehorne
Catherine Jane dau (1?? age unclear on my copy) b.Wittersham
HO107/1620 folio 144 page 7
.....................
Casalguidi :)
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1871 Census
6 Poonah Place,
Tunbridge Wells, Kent
RG10/927/145/23
Caroline McQUIRE, 52, Head, Widow, born East Kent, Warehorne
Catherine McQuire, 20, Daug, Unm, Mantle Maker, born London, England
Albert H McQuire, 7, Son, born London
1861 Census
13 Grafton Place,
St Pancras, Middlesex
RG9/110/1/5
Henry McQUIRE, 48, Head, Mar, Cab Owner, born High Halden, Kent
Carolaine, 42, Wife, Mar, born Whareharr, Kent
George, 15, Son, born High Halden, Kent
Catherine H, 10, born Clerkenwell, Middlesex
Hello all! Revisiting this after 10 years. Thought AI might help but it's just giving me info that I put on the web! I think this is the same Albert in 1881, but can't seem to locate him in later years.
Name Albert H. Mc Quire
Age 15
Estimated Birth Year abt 1866
Relationship to Head Brother in Law (Brother-in-law)
Gender Male
Where born London, Middlesex, England
Civil parish Ashford
County/Island Middlesex
Country England
Street Address "West London District School" Ashford
Occupation Scholar
Registration District Staines
ED, institution, or vessel West London District School
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 1327
Folio 144
Page number 3
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Looks like he ended up in Australia
Name Albert Henry Mcquire
Birth Year abt 1864
Birth Place Euston London, England
Death Year Abt 1937
Death Place Liverpool
Inquest Date 10 Apr. 1937
Inquest Place Liverpool
(Liverpool a suburb of Sydney, NSW)
Name Albert Henry McQuire
Gender Male
Marriage Age 50
Record Type Marriage
Birth Date abt 1864
Marriage Date 30 May 1914
Marriage Place Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Parish as it Appears Cathedral Church St Andrew
Father Henry McQuire
Mother Caroline McQuire
Spouse Laura Ellen McMahon-Barfoot
Arrived NSW on the Aberdeen 19 Apr. 1885 age as 21
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Happy Easter!
That’s marvelous! Thank you. I thought that may be the case. Is that from familysearch? Now I have to hope there are 2 more generations of males - Albert’s Grandson or great grandson and if he’s willing to take a DNA test :-)
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Info on Ancestry :)
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Info on Ancestry :)
Thanks! I did a quick search yesterday. Looks like his wife was a widow and had 2
Daughters. Haven’t found any kiddies of Albert yet. Hope they had some.
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I don't think they would have had children given their ages at Marriage.?
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I don't think they would have had children given their ages at Marriage.?
Ha! Detective I am didn’t notice his age at marriage! Perhaps she was considerably younger. Probably not.
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I don't think they would have had children given their ages at Marriage.?
I’d I could impose Trish if you have an ancestry membership, I see Catherine on a couple of family trees I can’t access. She’s listed at Catherine Harriett McQuire born in Clerkenwell.
On a
Tregoning Family Tree
And Allen Family Tree. Thank you
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Sent you info by PM :)