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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 13 November 12 10:42 GMT (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt and It's Dee's turn with a brick wall that's quite convoluted... Hoping you can help out.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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I seem to have hit some brick walls.
What I know is as follows….
Ann Lee of full age married Benjamin Clegg of full age on 27th June 1842 in the Doncaster Parish Church, York. Ann’s father was named as John Lee, horse keeper, while Benjamin had no father named. (Marriage certificate.)
Ann and Benjamin Clegg migrated to Tasmania in 1843 under the Bounty Scheme on the Elizabeth Jane. They arrived on 5th May 1843. Benjamin was listed as a farm servant of Doncaster who could read. In 1844 a daughter Susannah was born to the couple.
They didn’t stay in Tasmania long, as in 1846 the birth of a son, Benjamin, was registered to Ann Lee and Benjamin Clegg in South Australia. Benjamin Clegg senior’s occupation was listed as ploughman.
Then Ann Lee/Clegg had a child, Edward, in 1851 with the father named as Edward Tuckwell in the Noarlunga district. In 1869 she finally married Edward Tuckwell, after apparently living with him on and off over the years. Between 1851 and 1869 she appears to have had more children in South Australia, but birth registrations are missing.
I do know she had Thomas Cleg(g) in 1858, father listed as Thomas Smithers Cleg. I’ve been told that some of the children chose to go by the name Tuckwell, and know for a fact that her children Thomas and Susannah did.
One daughter appears to be Mary Ann Clegg, who married in South Aust in 1874. Her father was given as Benjamin Clegg and she was aged 24, meaning a birth c 1850. She married in Clare, where three other women are married who name their father as Thomas Clegg. Was this the Thomas who fathered Ann Lee’s son Thomas born 1858? Clare was quite a distance from Noarlunga so I wonder if Thomas a relation of Benjamin’s?
Ann Lee/Clegg/Tuckwell’s actual marriage to Edward Tuckwell lasted all of 4 months, when he died. She married Elijah Brown in 1873 at Noarlunga.
Edward Tuckwell was a convict transported to Tasmania in 1829 after being convicted at the Old Bailey for stealing 7 fowls. Once he received his Ticket of Leave in Tasmania, he sought a new start in South Australia, as many convicts did.
To my brick walls……
1. Finding more about the families of Benjamin Clegg and Ann Lee….
All I can find in the 1841 Census is the following possibility for Benjamin Clegg,
though the age doesn’t really compute with him saying he was of full age in
1842…… HO107/1326/6/27/1
For Ann Lee I have found the following possibility….. HO107/1326/6/27/1
(Ann Lee’s age at her second marriage in 1869 was given as 48 and at her 3rd marriage in 1873 as 51.)
For Ann’s father John Lee the only likely person found is the following….
HO107/1326/6/27/1
2. Another brickwall is what happened to Benjamin Clegg, Ann’s first husband?
According to evidence given by Ann in a court case in 1884, and I quote from the newspaper report…. “Witness's husband, Clegg, deserted her and was killed.”
I can’t find a death for him in Australian records. I do know that Ann had more children with other men listed as the fathers. I also know that she appears to have lead a rather “free” life.
3. I haven’t been able to find anything about Edward Tuckwell in England. All I know is that he was born c1809 possibly in Uxbridge, and he was a brickmaker working for a Thomas Mills in Limehouse when he was arrested.
4. Any other snippets that anyone can find would be most helpful.
Fingers crossed that someone will be able to help with some snippet of information!
Correction to the above.
The Benjamin Clegg 1841 reference is the HO107/1326/6/27/1 one.
For Ann Lee the most likely one found (going on her age at her third marriage and death) is HO107/1340/5/22/6
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Hi
I'm searching! :)
I hope Dee comes on soon ..seems like a convoluted story! Lots in the newspapers regarding Benjamin, the son.
deb
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Deetwin :)
You have given us the 1841 references for the Lees and Ben Clegg ...but they are all the same! :-\
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Hi again
Dee ...where did you find the reference to Edward Tuckwell being born in Uxbridge?
There are a few Tuckwells being married and baptised there...unfortunately no Edward!
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Hi Dee
I wonder who was writing to Benjamin Clegg in 1846 & 1847?
There are unclaimed letter notices for him::
South Australian (Adelaide) newspaper:
Friday, 9 January 1846
Tuesday, 12 October 1847
oo and one under Benj. Clegge
Friday, 2 April 1847
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Deetwin :)
You have given us the 1841 references for the Lees and Ben Clegg ...but they are all the same! :-\
Oops, Debtwin......I'll check that out shortly. Senior's moment! ::)
Added....correction....
The Benjamin Clegg 1841 reference is the HO107/1326/6/27/1 one.
For Ann Lee the most likely one found (going on her age at her third marriage and death) is HO107/1340/5/22/6
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Hi
I'm searching! :)
I hope Dee comes on soon ..seems like a convoluted story! Lots in the newspapers regarding Benjamin, the son.
deb
Yes....the newspaper items about Benjamin the son helped to sort out some of the story in South Australia. They make interesting if somewhat shocking reading! ;D
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Hi again
Dee ...where did you find the reference to Edward Tuckwell being born in Uxbridge?
There are a few Tuckwells being married and baptised there...unfortunately no Edward!
From his Convict Records, Deb. :)
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Hi Dee
I wonder who was writing to Benjamin Clegg in 1846 & 1847?
There are unclaimed letter notices for him::
South Australian (Adelaide) newspaper:
Friday, 9 January 1846
Tuesday, 12 October 1847
oo and one under Benj. Clegge
Friday, 2 April 1847
If only one could still get hold of those letters!
Thanks for trying Deb. :)
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Hi Deetwin :D
I have been going around in circles most of the day. (Mary) Ann Lee was quite a 'lady' LOL
I read through the other thread you have re; Edward Tuckwell , I saw that he was arrested in Uxbridge but didn't see where he actually stated he was born there!
Got to pick up kate in a minute ...but will be back.
Can you find the refs for the 1841 ....
Great to 'see' you! Our 'twinship' seemed to have happened a lifetime ago!!!!! ;D ;D
deb
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Hi Deb.
I've now posted the corrected census references. Later I'll get Barbara to change it in the original.
Ann (Mary Ann) Lee certainly had a "colourful" past. She's my children's ggg-grandmother!!!!
Talk about skeletons in the cupboard. :o
For anyone interested, here's the thread to my Edward Tuckwell in Australia thread....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,608565.0.html
Dee :)
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Hi Dee
Thanks for the refs. I am not familiar with Yorkshire so I have no idea if benjamin is the right guy.
I had spotted Ann in Doncaster with her mum and siblings ...where was John, her dad, the horsekeeper?
I looked for a Mary Lee but couldn't find one that fit! I wonder what she was baptised as ...Mary Ann?
Who were the witnesses to the Lee/Clegg marriage?
The articles in the newspapers re Benjamin jnr and Susannah were rather, as you say, shocking... although Ann did say they were half siblings! I wonder if that's the truth?
Do you know what Edward died of?
What did ESQ. mean in those days ...as the article regarding Ann Clegg/Tuckwell nee Lee's marriage to E Brown states that he was E Brown Esq. and she the widow of Edward Tuckwell Esq.
More questions than answers, I'm afraid. :-\
deb
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Hi Dee
Thanks for the refs. I am not familiar with Yorkshire so I have no idea if benjamin is the right guy.
I had spotted Ann in Doncaster with her mum and siblings ...where was John, her dad, the horsekeeper?
I have no idea as I have yet to able to locate a possibility in the 1841 census.
I looked for a Mary Lee but couldn't find one that fit! I wonder what she was baptised as ...Mary Ann?
Your guess is as good as mine! She used the names Mary Ann, Mary & Ann in various Australian records.
Who were the witnesses to the Lee/Clegg marriage?
One was an Edward Willington....at least I think that's what it says. I'll have to get the other one deciphered.
The articles in the newspapers re Benjamin jnr and Susannah were rather, as you say, shocking... although Ann did say they were half siblings! I wonder if that's the truth?
Do you know what Edward died of?
I'll have to check and see if I have that information.....have a transcript of his death somewhere in my files.
What did ESQ. mean in those days ...as the article regarding Ann Clegg/Tuckwell nee Lee's marriage to E Brown states that he was E Brown Esq. and she the widow of Edward Tuckwell Esq.
Esq. meant esquire.
More questions than answers, I'm afraid. :-\
deb
All I know about Doncastger is that it is a place where there were a fair few gypsies around the place and still are. I have physical descriptions of Edward Tuckwell and Benjamin Clegg junior and also descendants of Ann Lee and Edward Tuckwell, and it makes me wonder.
Dee :)
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I guess this could be a possibility for John Lee the horsekeeper in 1841.....
HO107/1329/11/12/16
Dee :)
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Hi Dee,
Do you need anything looked up at the NSW State Records Office? OH and I will be there this coming Friday and Saturday. ;D mind you OH thinks we will find what we are after, this Friday but I have booked overnight accomodation because I know he will find more questions after we find some answers ::)
In the meantime ..... ::) Do you think there's any NSW connections I can look up in my own off line resources for your CLEGG/LEES lot? For example, did any of them get to the Western Division of NSW circa 1850s to 1950s .... ;D ;D
Many Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
That's a kind offer. :)
The only link with NSW that I know about is the infamous Benjamin Clegg junior, who died in Broken Hill.
Details are on this thread....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,608565.0.html
I think I'll put a link to this on that thread in case anyone else on the Australian Board is interested.
Dee :)
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Hi Dee
When I asked about "esquire" I wonder if it meant they were property owners, gentlemen etc.?
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Lee is a gypsy name ;D
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Hi Dee
When I asked about "esquire" I wonder if it meant they were property owners, gentlemen etc.?
I would doubt it very much! ;D ;D ;D
I do know that Edward Tuckwell senior did rent 40 acres Section 466 in Willunga in 1869 & 1870.
As for Elijah Brown, I haven't really followed up. :-\
I have absolutely no idea of how to research possible gypsy links, Deb! :-\
Dee :)
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I'm not sure that a horse keeper would show up as a groom. One of my ancestors is noted as a horse keeper on a certificate, he drove a coach on part of the route of the London to Newcastle express. His part of the route was between Northallerton and Darlington.
There were several coaches that left Doncaster, have a look at the carriers at the bottom of this entry
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Doncaster/Doncaster34Dry.html
even more in 1829
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Doncaster/Doncaster29Dry.html
so plenty of work for a horsekeeper!
;)
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Thanks for that, Osprey.
I'll certainly have a look at those links.
Dee :)
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Oh My ...I saw a coach maker/person when searching today ...I have no clue who it was ... will try to remember. 8)
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I'll spend some time this afternoon with the 1841 census again, Deb....trying to find the witnesses to the marriage.....just in case there's a clue there.
Osprey's links certainly showed that John Lee could have found employment in a variety of ways.
Dee :)
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I was hoping that maybe a Lee had married one of the witnesses.
Can't see a Edward Willington in Doncaster in 1841....Dee can you post the snippets of the witnesses to the marriage here or have you already done that on the handwriting boards? If so just give us the links ....Unfortunately there are no clues in the children's names... grrrrrrrr.
deb
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ooo just a thought, although maybe going off on a tangent ...I have gypsies in my family who were coach builders. :D
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Oh Deb....that would be so funny! ;D
Some alternatives to witnesses' names suggested, Deb.....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=623783.msg4720193;topicseen#msg4720193
I think I agree with the Emma but not sure about the surname. Thought I'd check out a variety.
Right now I'm going to enjoy my first proper meal for almost three weeks! ;D ;D
So if you're gone when I get back, I'll catch you later.
Dee :)
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before I look at your link ..... what?? ...first meal in 3 weeks?? ...what?? why??
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Looked at the link ...The handwriting is so difficult to read!
Emma ?innington
William Tailor
need a slurp of wine ;D ;D
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Deetwin :)
You have given us the 1841 references for the Lees and Ben Clegg ...but they are all the same! :-\
Oops, Debtwin......I'll check that out shortly. Senior's moment! ::)
Added....correction....
The Benjamin Clegg 1841 reference is the HO107/1326/6/27/1 one.
For Ann Lee the most likely one found (going on her age at her third marriage and death) is HO107/1340/5/22/6
I put in a correction, Dee ;D ;D
(I didn't pick it up either!! ::) ::) )
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Thanks Barbara. :)
I checked out all the working age males by the name of Lee in Doncaster in 1841.....
Doncaster Lee 1841 census
Joshua Lee c 1781 Horse keeper
William Lee c 1781 Ag Lab Not born in county
James Lee c 1891 Labourer
Joseph Lee c 1796 Bricklayer
John Lee c1801 Baker
William Lee c 1801 Servant
Wm Lee c1806 Labourer
John Lee c1816 Waterman
John Lee c1816 Ag Lab
Wm Lee c1816 Ag Lab
Abraham Lee c1821 Servant Not born in county
John Lee c1821 L Currier
George Lee c1826 Labourer
Henery Lee c1826 Servant Not born in county
William Lee c1826 Ag Lab Not born in county
No sign of the John Lee I'm looking for, but very interesting that Joshua Lee was also a horse keeper.
Dee :)
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Hi Dee
I did some searching on the London baptism index this morning ...searching for only "Edward" no surname bc 1808/9.
Got excited when I found an Edward Jacknell b 1808 s/o Richard and Susanne. I thought the "J" could be a "T" and the "n" a "w' ... I couldn't find him anywhere else ... I looked at it several times but now think it is a J.
There was also an Edward Tugwell ::)
What were the other names of Edward's children by Ann?
deb
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I know Ann had son Thomas born 1858 and Mary Ann born c1850, Deb. Neither were registered with Edward Tuckwell as the father.
Hearsay says that there were other children but I've found no record of them at this stage. It really is a tangle.
Dee :)
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Your family are driving me nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ;D
They remind me of the Bauers LOL .....
Anyway ...just a thought.....
From the previous thread there is no Edward Tuckwell on IGI and I can't see him in the London/Middlesex baptism index. At the Old Bailey hearing there is mention of him being an orphan. It seems that he would have maybe mentioned he was one and one of the witnesses had no info regarding his status. What if he were a true orphan (dropped on the doorstep of some church or workhouse) and was just given the name Tuckwell. I know this doesn't help but I have reached the end of my tether LOL
BTW was IGI searched just in the London area? Maybe he came from somewhere else?
What were the names of the other women in the same area where Mary Ann got married who's maiden names were Tuckwell?
On a lighter note ...have you seen the pic of us on the panto thread ... Dee and Deb Twins together ... ;D ;D ;D
deb
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Well Deb, I'm glad to know that Edward Tuckwell, orphan, is not just driving me crazy! ;D ;D
(along with Ann Lee and Benjamin Clegg)
Until the 1880s, there were only two Tuckwell families in South Australia. Both fathers were Edward Tuckwell, but I have sorted them out and they are totally different families. The other Edward Tuckwell family left South Australia for the Northern Territory during the 1860s. There were no women with the maiden name of Tuckwell at that time. :-\
Sorry I wasn't around today......eye specialist. ::)
Dee :)
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It's that time of the week again and here's a bit of a puzzler for you. Vasquez109 is really hoping you can knock down his brick wall, or at least point him in another direction.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,624650.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
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Hi Dee
A couple of Clegg fragments:
A Mary Clegg, aged about 16, was housemaid/servant to Charles and Charlotte Dawson, managers of Oraparinna Homestead in 1865. At the end of that year the great drought drove them off the Station, and they shifted initially to Port Augusta. The family then went to Hanson / Farrell Flat where they took over the pub and later farmed in the area. Source: Henry Hammond Tilbrook papers, State Library of South Australia manuscript collections.
A Thomas Clegg died at/near Beltana in 1877. The headstone inscription (I have photographed it) reads: 'In Memory of Thomas Clegg who died 4th May 1877 aged 51 years'. I don't think he's in the SA BDMs.
Maybe something will fit with information you already have.
Frank
PS: congratulations re the outcomes of the bible search!
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Many thanks for the Clegg information, Frank.
Mary Clegg aged 16 could well be the daughter Mary Ann of Benjamin Clegg and Ann Lee. The age is right, and Mary Ann later married at Clare.
And you're correct, Frank, Thomas's death isn't in the index - just like Benjamin's is missing.
Age of 51 if correct means he was born about 1826.
I'm very pleased I posted the Old Bible information on here - it's been a great result. :)
Dee :)
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Meant to add that neither Thomas or Benjamin are listed on the Unregistered Deaths disk or in the South Aust Gazette Deaths either. :-\
Dee :)
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Hi Dee
The Mary Clegg on Oraparinna Station in 1865 would appear to be the one who married Mark Francis. The other Mary Clegg of matching age married Louis Holzberger - and it was she who was the daughter of Benjamin Clegg.
Mark Francis, son of Edward Francis, was working a mine near the (then) Angorichina Outstation (the Carey Hill Mine, which he called the Mount Carey Mine). At that stage, Carey Hill was on the Oraparinna Station, so he would no doubt have met that Mary Clegg while working there.
At least it all solves a puzzle I have had for years - what became of the Mary Clegg who worked on Oraparinna!
If you wish, you can check out my Clegg clippings at my Evernote online storage at:
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/e7e55af9-7567-47b6-93f0-e137198ccae5/5689a6b8e19ed2fed4e7719947d46c85
That URL should give you free and no-joining access to that bundle of clippings - let me know if it doesn't work.
Frank
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Many thanks again for clarifying the Mary Clegg marriages in connection with Thomas Clegg for me, Frank. It's much appreciated. :)
I shall certainly take advantage of your kind offer as well.
Dee :)
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I suspect I may have found a baptism record for Benjamin CLEGG who married Ann LEE. On their marriage certificate, Benjamin had no father named.
I've found the following.....Baptism for Doncaster.....
Benjamin CLEGG baptised 3rd September 1820 Barnburgh St Peter's.
No father named. Mother given as Susan CLEGG.
Benjamin and Ann named their first child Susan/Susannah.
It's about the right year and seems to fit.
Dee :)
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Are you still looking into Clegg/Lee? I've just started looking back, Mary Anne Clegg was a relative. I believe her parents were Benjamin and Anne. She married in Claire South Australia, and was born in 1847 in Tasmania. Looking for info.
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Welcome to RootsChat, Jeffri. :)
Yes, I am still following up any information that comes up on the CLEGG/LEE/TUCKWELL families.
Mary Ann, parents Benjamin CLEGG and Ann LEE, wasn't born in Tasmania, as Benjamin and Ann were both in South Australia in 1846 when their son Benjamin was born. I suspect she was born between 1846 and 1851 in South Australia. (1851 was when Edward TUCKWELL was born to Edward TUCKWELL and Ann LEE.)
It would really help if I could find what happened to Benjamin CLEGG and when. The only information I have is what Ann said at the trial of her son Benjamin and daughter Susannah. She stated that Benjamin was with her for a few years in South Australia and then he left and was killed.