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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: lindudes on Sunday 11 November 12 01:26 GMT (UK)
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Hi all, I am relatively new to these boards but not new to researching my family tree (been plodding away for 6+ years now). I am at a cross roads and would appreciate any help.
My GG Grandfather is Henry Dryden. The information I have on him from his death certificate is:
He died 20 December 1937
He was born in Edinburgh, Scotland
He had lived in New Zealand for 75 years
He was 86 when he died
His occupation was a Butcher
His father was John Dryden, mother's name isn't listed.
So according to my calculations he was born approximately 1851. He married (according to the death cert) when he was 20, however this date isn't correct. Instead of marrying in 1871, he married in 1879. His wife was Louisa Elizabeth Wilson. He married in NZ so he had to arrive before 1879.
They lived in Invercargill, however I believe he may have spent time in Dunedin and Wellington. According to family folklore he was considered one of the best small goods butchers in New Zealand.
I can't seem to find his arrival to New Zealand. I have been looking on familysearch and ancestry.com.au. I don't seem to have much to go on. His name is Henry, his father is John. Both very popular names. No idea of any siblings but my father seems to think he arrived with 2 or 3 of his brothers.
Would love any assistance or ideas on where to go next.
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It would be interesting to see if he is in the Scottish 1871 census?
Also Street Directories in New Zealand..I'll have a look and see
Bye
Althea
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1880 Electoral roll thre is a HENRY DRYDEN, butcher in Dunedin; Russell Street
Other males by this surname: George (Grocer) and William Thomas (Express driver)
Bye
Althea
HEnry is not in the 1878 Wises Directory, George Dryden has his General Store in Russell St, Dunedin
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Thre are possibilities in the Scottish census that will give you leads on family
WAs he married in Presbyterian Church, the church records may give you more info than a marriage cert would
Bye
Althea
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Hello...
Not too helpful but here's a mention of the death of Henry's daughter Eleanor. The date ties in with the info on their headstone.
PapersPast - Evening Post - 13 December 1918 - Page 1 - Deaths
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s4q/
Invercargill Cemetery - Eleanor DRYDEN
http://www.icc.govt.nz/ServicesA-Z/Cemeteries/CemeterySearch.aspx?CER_Surname=DRYDEN&11562
I'm guessing the cousin mentioned is James Alexander MASON, who married Mary Leake BOWEN in 1913
PapersPast - Evening Post - 13 August 1925 - Page 6
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s4r/
BDM NZ Marriages - 1913/4968 - Mary Leake BOWEN to James Alexander MASON
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Do you know whether James Alexander MASON is related to Eleanor DRYDEN through her paternal or maternal line. I tried to work it out using the BDM NZ website but failed quite miserably. Would be helpful if it were paternal as it would be another link to the DRYDEN family.
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Can I second Althea's thoughts on tracing the DRYDEN family in Scotland. The Scotland's People website is one of the best and Scottish record keeping was pretty reliable. Costs a few dollars but there's a pretty good chance you'll find Henry siblings.
Scotland's People
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
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Was he married in Presbyterian Church, the church records may give you more info than a marriage cert would
Yes they are listed on the Presbyterian database.
http://www.presbyterian.org.nz/archives/marriageregisters/knoxdunedin9.htm
Regards
Beg
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Can you access Ancestry via a library?
There are lost of trees and family details for Henry who dies 1937
?/They have father as George (died 1894 Dunedin), mother Margaret Meikle
Grandfather John
The Henry who has a father JOhn, is born c1846, mother Jane Nisbett, spouse Ann Gillon
Died 1906 Edinburgh
Bye
Althea
Obit added for George mentioned above
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP18941006.2.28&srpos=97&e=-------100--1-byDA---2george+dryden--
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Hi again...
Trailing Althea yet again, here is a link to a Henry DRYDEN tree on Mundia.
Mundia is a part of ancestry.com. It's free to view the tree but you need to register (also free) if you want to explore further.
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/27997215/12282856954
Regards
Beg
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Thanks for the replies - I will follow them up. I was of the belief Henry's parent would've been George Dryden and Margaret Meikle but the death cert which has only just come to light lists his father as John. Henry is buried in Invercargill with his wife Louisa and some of his children. He was also noted as being Church of England religion on his death cert.
I believe Henry also worked for the Gear Meat Company and the Southland Meat Co. My other plan is to contact a local funeral director who I believe may have been the undertaker.
I have access (at the moment) to ancestry though I have accounted for most of the trees that mention him - it's more the records and any sources that are proving elusive.
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I see BDM's have spelt his name Brydon
1879/3317 Louisa Elizabeth Wilson to Henry Bryden
Cheers Janette
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Ask the people witht he trees what sources they have used to save you purchasing things
Ask for copy of marriage
or get a copy from the source Beg gave via the church
usually the church records will have the parents details..or ask them before you order
Bye
Althea
George and family arrival 1858
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/Jura1858.htm
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He was 25 yrs when he married
DRYDEN Henry 25y WILSON 14 Nov 1879 KnoxChurch
WILSON Louisa Elizabeth 21y DRYDEN 14 Nov 1879 KnoxChurch
Cheers Janette
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I have a copy of the marriage printout which is quite basic really. It says he married Louisa Elizabeth Wilson on 14 November 1879 at the house of Rev Donald Stuart in Dunedin (so unfortunately no church affiliation there). There is no mention of any other Dryden's. Witness for the bride is Ellen Wilson (Cumberland St) and witness of the groom Archibald Miller (George St).
Again it lists him as a butcher.
The reason why I thought George and Margaret (Meikle) Dryden were his parents is I had that info that you found Althea that they arrived on the Jura with six children and tracing the census in Scotland there were 5 children listed: John, Thomas, George, Michael and William. So there was one missing child. When they arrived in NZ (according to BDM) they went on to have four more: Adam, Alfred, Baby (died young) and Archibald. I assumed that between the last census (I think in 1851) when only 5 kids were mentioned, Henry may have come along and he wouldn't be recorded.
But now with the death printout saying his father is John. The only other option was I was completely on the wrong track and it's a different family. Or George may have had John as his middle name, or the death cert may be wrong?
I just don't know and it's so frustrating!
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Hmm that's interesting Janette, obviously Rev Stuart was affiliated with Knox Church so will try and email them to verify, thanks.
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There is a Henry Dryden arriving in the Phoebe from Sydney
New Zealand Herald, Volume X, Issue 3729, 23 October 1873, Page 2
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s4v/
Cheers Janette
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You said he may have lived in Wellington,there is a death notice for a John Dryden,77 Taylor St Glasgow,fourth son of the late John Dryden,sub-collector Linlithgow Basin,and brother of Henry Dryden,Karori.
Evening Post, Volume XXXI, Issue 26, 2 February 1886, Page 2
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s4w/
Cheers Janette
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I came across that piece the other day Janette but the really tricky thing is there is another Henry Dryden in NZ and he is roughly the same age. I can safely eliminate the Henry Dryden that was married to Mary Ann Eagle. They are definitely not my line as they are buried in Wellington. It makes the research very awkward when I have to be constantly aware of the names of the other Henry's line.
So I'm unsure whether that newspaper article refers to my Henry or the other Henry. It would've been helpful if my Henry had a middle name. I have come across "G" being his middle initial and he has a child called Henry George so there is that thought that Henry Snr might also be Henry George Dryden.
I will list Henry and Louisa's children (in case that leads to some clues)
Annie Elizabeth - b. 19/11/1879 - d. 7/3/1945
Henry George - b. 14/12/1882 - d. 8/10/1947
Alfred Ponsford (Died young) b. 3/12/1883 - d. 23/3/1884
Margaret Eva - b.14/5/1885 - d. 7/2/1960
Albert Edward - b. 22/10/1886 - d. 31/3/1945
Eleanor Muriel - b. 13/10/1888 - d. 28/11/1918
Alfred Ponsford - b. 20/8/1890 - d. 11/12/1958
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The Bowen line that has been mentioned relates to Louisa Wilson's family (Henry's wife) though I haven't made any connection to J.A Mason yet.
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Looking at 1851 scottish census George brother of Henry is 1mo old but no Henry...
the trees have that he was a twin..but he's not on entry
Bye
Althea
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I will list Henry and Louisa's children (in case that leads to some clues)
...
Alfred Ponsford (Died young) b. 3/12/1883 - d. 23/3/1884
...
Alfred Ponsford - b. 20/8/1890 - d. 11/12/1958
Hi again...
I suspect you already know the following but it hints at a family connection between your Henry and Thomas, second son of George and Margaret.
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The BDM NZ website has three listings for the birth of an Alfred Ponsford DRYDEN, one in 1878 and other two you've mentioned as sons of Henry and Louisa (1883 and 1890).
The parents of the first Alfred are Thomas DRYDEN and his wife, the former Mary McDonald CUDDIE.
1878/11972 - DRYDEN, Alfred Ponsford - mother: Mary McDonald father: Thomas
Their marriage notice, which says second son of George, is here...
PapersPast - Otago Daily Times - 13 April 1872 - Page 2 - Marriage
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s4x/
Regards
Beg
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So I'm unsure whether that newspaper article refers to my Henry or the other Henry. It would've been helpful if my Henry had a middle name. I have come across "G" being his middle initial and he has a child called Henry George so there is that thought that Henry Snr might also be Henry George Dryden.
If this Family of George and Margaret do prove to be correct afterall
I am swayed that your HENRY is George..given you mention the George H
The parish registers on LDS only have the baptism for George and not a Henry (at least what I can see) again going via Scotlands people would be far more accurate. **Although trees have him dying in AUS??? there goes that theory**
I think at this stage we are resting on whether the actual Church record (of the household mariage) is more complete and names the parents Otherwise without proof it will only ever be speculation.
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Well :'( Rubbish the above theory
1883 Wises Directory brothers George and Henry in Dunedin
Maybe worth tracking through these yearly directories
When do you first know for sure that your Henry is in Invercargill??
So we could see if we were possibly dealing with two different people
Bye
Althea
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...the really tricky thing is there is another Henry Dryden in NZ and he is roughly the same age. It makes the research very awkward when I have to be constantly aware of the names of the other Henry's line.
So I'm unsure whether that newspaper article refers to my Henry or the other Henry.
father George (died 1894 Dunedin), mother Margaret Meikle
Grandfather John
Hi again...
The Henry DRYDEN living in Karori says he's the brother of George d.1894.
Evening Post - 29 September 1894 - Page 2
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s5b/
Possibly the same Henry as Janette mentioned earlier.
Evening Post - 2 February 1886 - Page 2
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s4w/
So my latest theory is that the two Henry's are uncle b.1843 and nephew b.1851
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The 1893 and 1896 electoral rolls list only the one Henry DRYDEN living in Karori. He is a clerk.
He is more likely than not the following Henry...
BDM NZ Marriages - 1880/2583 - Frances Sarah McREDIE to Henry DRYDEN
... because the 1893 and 1896 electoral rolls also list a Frances Sarah DRYDEN (married woman) of Craigelea House, Karori.
This may be his obituary...
Evening Post - 2 December 1918 - Page 4
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s5i/
He is buried at St Mary's Church cemetery.
Evening Post - 2 December 1918 - Page 2
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s5j/
This would be his corresponding listing on the BDM NZ website...
BDM NZ Deaths - 1918/11578 - DRYDEN, Henry - 75Y - d.o.d 30 Nov 1918
and possibly Archway. Maybe start a look-up thread?
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22225799
And I think this is his wife's obituary...
Hawera & Normanby Star - 2 July 1921 - Page 4 - Personal Items
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s5h/
This would be her corresponding listing on the BDM NZ website
BDM NZ Deaths - 1921/4231 - DRYDEN, Frances Sarah - 74Y - d.o.d 30 Jun 1921
and Archway. Again, maybe start a look-up thread.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23086374
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There is also a Zoe DRYDEN listed at the same address. Possibly the following...
BDM NZ Births - 1871/20320 - DRYDEN, Zoe - mother: Mary Ann father: Henry
...who may well be the daughter of the couple you've already discounted...
BDM NZ Marriages - 1865/6164 - Mary Ann EAGLE to Henry DRYDEN
I can safely eliminate the Henry Dryden that was married to Mary Ann Eagle. They are definitely not my line as they are buried in Wellington.
Where is the Wellington burial of Henry and Mary Ann née EAGLE that you mentioned. I could only find a Simon and Mary Ann DRYDEN on the Wellington cemetery website.
Evening Post - 21 May 1919 - Page 1
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s5e/
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If the 1894 newspaper notice is to be believed, this Henry is obviously part of the family. Maybe the informant for the 1937 death certificate of Henry DRYDEN has got things mixed-up (similar to how he/she gave the incorrect year of marriage)
I came across that piece the other day Janette but the really tricky thing is there is another Henry Dryden in NZ and he is roughly the same age.
What are the details of the other Henry that you've found
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I appreciate that none of the above helps you in finding when your g-g-grandfather Henry arrived, nor helps find a record of his birth. But it might explain the "Father: John" mentioned on his 1937 death certificate.
Out of interest, who was the informant.
Regards
Beg
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My mistake BegClonrode I'm getting confused between the Mary's and Henry's! Mary Louisa and Henry Ernest (Henry being the son of Henry Dryden and Mary Ann Eagle) are buried/cremated in Wellington.
From the internet I have found information on what I believe to be the other Dryden family
Henry DRYDEN married Mary Ann EAGLE in NZ in 1865. He was from Scotland and she was from Poplar, West London
- Mary Ann died 28 March 1880 aged 35, leaving 5 children
- Henry remarried 14 August 1880 to Frances Sarah McCREDIE (1847-1921)
The 5 known children of Henry Dryden & Mary Ann Eagle:
1866 - 1958 Henry Ernest Dryden
- married Mary Braithwaite
1867 - 1949 Janet Hannah Dryden
- married Alexander Ramsay
1869 - 1953 Alice Mary Dryden
- married Wakeford Cox
1871 - ? Zoe Dryden
- married Percy Simpson
1875 - 1912 Lena Dryden
- Lena did not marry
- she died in Craigielea, Karori, Wellington after a long illness aged 37
Whereas my family is (for definite)
Henry G. Dryden - b. 1850's - d. 20/12/1937
Louisa Elizabeth Wilson -b. 29/7/1859 - d. 13/6/1935
They married 14/11/1879 in Dunedin
Annie Elizabeth - b. 19/11/1879 - d. 7/3/1945
- never married
Henry George - b. 14/12/1882 - d. 8/10/1947
- married Annie Ola Peters and Margaret Moffat
Alfred Ponsford - b. 3/12/1883 - d. 23/3/1884
- never married
Margaret Eva - b.14/5/1885 - d. 7/2/1960
- married Richard Bernard Fowler
Albert Edward - b. 22/10/1886 - d. 31/3/1945
- married Ellen Margaret Morris (a.k.a Eleanor, Lena)
Eleanor Muriel - b. 13/10/1888 - d. 28/11/1918
- never married
Alfred Ponsford - b. 20/8/1890 - d. 11/12/1958
- married Agnes Orr Stephens
I went to the funeral home today and got a printout of what they had on file unfortunately nothing to add. They also had Henry's mothers name listed as unknown. They had he was 86 when he died and had spent 75 years in NZ which for me is a guideline and not something I will accept as absolute.
Please bear with me as I trawl through the responses so far as there have been more than I ever expected (which is awesome). I'm determined to get to the bottom of this mystery :)
PS: there seems to be no informant on the death printout of who provided the information so I am also considering that 'whoever' provided it may have got confused and John was not the father instead was the grandfather...
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Okay I now have another theory! Lol, totally unproven but a theory nonetheless.
Say John is Henry's father (as per death printout).
Then his parents would actually be John Dryden and Janet Riddell
So far for that family I have:
Thomas - b.1822
George - b. 1824, d. 29/9/1894
Agnes - b. 1827
Michael - b. 1829
John - b. 1834
William - b. 1836
David - b. 1839
Henry being the baby of that family?
This would fit with the links you guys have provided.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP18940929.2.10&srpos=2&e=27-09-1894-06-10-1894--100--1-byDA---2dryden--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP18860202.2.8&srpos=23&e=-------100--1-byDA---2henry%20dryden--
So Henry is mentioned as being the brother of both George and John. And in the Wises directory and electoral roles there is George, Henry and William living in Dunedin. So I'm thinking the William b. 1836 is actually named William Thomas.
This is seeming quite plausible because all the names fit. Also I know they had large families in those days. So maybe Janet Riddell had her first child quite young - maybe 18 or 19? And when she was around late 40's she had the baby Henry? Originally I thought he would've been born about 1851. With him dying in 1937 aged 86 it would put his birth as being that year.
Just a theory. Anyone else think it might be plausible? I will have another look on ancestry and try and look at Scottish census's tomorrow.
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Hi again...
Saw the following tree on FamilySearch. I think it's for Henry of Karori.
Unsourced and unverified so grain of salt.
Wonder where the birth date came from.
Henry DRYDEN 1841-1918
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/M7KP-TGF
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The 1893 and 1896 electoral rolls both mention a Henry DRYDEN (butcher) in Invercargill and a Henry DRYDEN (clerk) in Karori. I still think it's possible that your g-g-grandfather was born c.1851 and was one of the six DRYDEN children who came over on the Jura (1858)
Having said that, your Henry (1851-1937) has yet to be found on Scotlands People or the 1851 Scottish census or FamilySearch. So it's not worth committing to anything. I reckon keep the theories coming.
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Is there a chance that, except for the same surname, your Henry is not even related to George DRYDEN and Margaret MEIKLE.
I don't suppose you've seen the death certificate for George d.1894 or his wife Margaret d.1905
The death certificate will mention the number of living children. You might be able to work out whether or not it's possible that your Henry was their child.
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Althea's earlier mention of a twin is worth another look. Must find where that came from.
Also it may pay to view the actual 1851 baptism register for George, as well as the previous/next entry. If George and Henry are twins you would expect them to be baptised on the same day. Possibly they are mentioned on the same register entry but only George's name was transcribed. I'd guess Scotlands People is the place to look.
Regards
Beg
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Beg
the trees at ancestry have the George and Henry born same year
Of course could have been start and finish and not twins idea
Bye
Althea
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Hi Althea,
Thanks for that :-)
So when the father George dies in 1894 there should be two 48 year old living male issue mentioned on his death certificate i.e George Jnr. and Henry. Or possibly one 48 year old male (George Jnr.) and one 47 year old male (Henry).
Then in 1899 George Jnr. dies in a mine accident in Australia.
Otago Daily Times - 2 December 1899 - Page 4 - Deaths
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s60/
Then in 1905 the mother Margaret dies. So now there should be no mention of George Jnr. on her death certificate, only the one living male issue (Henry) who is, by this time, aged 53.
A shame it would cost $40 to find out :-)
Even more of a shame that NZ doesn't supply names of the children on the death certificate, only the age and sex, as knowing age and sex still doesn't mean it's Henry the butcher....
....unless of course there is only one 48 year old male on the father's 1894 death certificate (George Jnr.) and no sign of a 53 year old male on the mother's 1905 death certificate...in which case Henry wasn't their son :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi again...
Another unsourced, unverified tree for Henry of Karori but it seems to have had a bit of effort put into it.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/99MF-HQK
What's got me worried is the line...
Henry had lived in NZ for 4 years at the time of his marriage [to Mary Ann EAGLE]. Presently living at father's residence in Molesworth St, Thorndon..
Does this mean the father of Mary Ann or the father of Henry.
There's an ITM (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,494517.msg4544371.html#msg4544371) feel to this :-) Have you seen the 1865 ITM for Henry and Mary Ann
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And the following note is unsourced on the webpage but sounds interesting...
Arrived in New Zealand on the ship 'Pladda" in August 1860 at Port Chalmers. Carpenter. Managed the timber merchants W. Booth and Co., in Wellington until 1901. Was on the Karori Borough Council for a time. Kept a refreshment place opposite Karori Cemetery after 2nd marriage. Built a two storey house at No. 32 Karori Road (with 29 acres). Was on the Road Board 1877-83. 1908- Settler of Karori. Henry, and his first wife Mary Ann, became Mormons. On 30 Dec 1871 they sailed with four children on the 'Nevada' to San Fransico en-route to Salt Lake City. They were the first Karori group to 'Gather to Zion', arriving on 10 Feb 1872. Later they returned to New Zealand where Mary Ann and her mother used their local influence against the Church.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Lindudes,
We know that you are trying to retrieve a new password to access your profile, sadly they are being returned to us because we only have an old email address for you that is no longer working.
For help please click on the "contact support" button on the front page or via our Facebook/twitter/google+ page.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hello,
John Dryden living in Austinmer South Coast of NSW Australia was noted as the son of George Dryden who died in Dunedin NZ in 1895. George was said to have left a widow; eight sons, and forty-five grand children.
Gill
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Would this be the death of George in 1894?
Death notice:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18941001.2.9?query=george%20dryden
In memoriam:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW18951003.2.108?query=george%20dryden
Minniehaha.
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These children found........
1882/9319 Dryden George Margaret George -
1886/8159 Dryden Beatrice Margaret George -
1877/3080 Dryden Ernest Margaret George
1888/12835 Dryden Ettie Margaret George
1884/10838 Dryden Alice Margaret George -
1879/12150 Dryden Margaret Margaret George
1875/12784 Dryden Mary Margaret George
1881/1630 Dryden Jane Margaret George
1868/32176 Dryden Archibald Margaret George -
1866/27806 Dryden NR Margaret George -
1863/16767 Dryden Alfred Margaret George -
1860/12087 Dryden Adam Margaret George
Minniehaha.
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Obituary:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW18941011.2.15?query=dryden%20obituary
Minniehaha.
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The notice was in the Illawarra Mercury (Wollongong, NSW : 1856 - 1950) Thursday 25 July 1895 .
DEATH OF AN OLD NEW ZEALANDER.
Referring to the death of Mr. George Dryden (father of Mr. John Dryden, of Austinmer), the Dunedin (N.Z.I Evening Star says : — ' Another old identity, George Dryden, well known as a storekeeper in Russell and Arthur- streets, in this city, died, on the 29th ist , aged seventy years.
His death was the result of an operation bravely undergone, for the removal of an obstruction to one of his eyes. . He sailed from the Clyde for Port Chalmers in the July in 1858, In the good old days he had several teams on the road between Dunedin and the diggings, and after brought down the men's gold. He was the first one stuck up by the notorious Garrett, at Manngatua, who, however, unsuspectingly allowed him to pass with gold to the value of £3000 concealed in the horses', collars.
His teams' were among the first engaged in the formation of Cunoan and other streets on the hill, where he owned considerable property. One side of Arthur street, between Duncan and Russell-streets, was built by him, and he was the proprietor of the first store and hotel in that vicinity.
After his teamster days, Mr. Dryden retired from business, but being a heavy loser by a fire on his property he tried farming at Sandvmoaot., which, however, did not prove a success, and he sold out to Mr. Larnarch.
He afterwards started business again irn the old premises, which he carried on until shortly before his demise. Deceased leaves a widow; eight sons, and forty-five' grand children. He was well known among his fellows as a man of sterling integrity, and the respect in which he was held was shown by the number of old friends who followed him to his last resting place.
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New Zealand newspaper items and cemetery details confirm date of death as being 29.9.1894....... ;)
http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/facilities/cemeteries/cemeteries_search?recordid=102398&type=Burial
His death registration:
1894/907 Dryden George 70Y
Minniehaha.