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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Lady Di on Friday 09 November 12 20:25 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I'm looking for information about a property/farm called "Concord Farm" on the Parramatta River in the 1840-1880 time frame.
"Empire" 6 Jul 1854:
CONCORD FARM
TO BE LET the above charming property, situate on the Parramatta River opposite to Ryde, and within a pleasant distance of Sydney, by either land or water. It comprises a large Cottage, Stables, Coach-house, Farm-yard, &c, &c; 80 acres, more or less, of good land, well cleared, and fit for grazing. A fruitful Orange Orchard and Garden well stocked with Fruit trees. Possession can be given on the 22nd instant. Apply to
GEORGE THORNE AND CO.
York-street
Various TROVE articles say it's at Kissing Point or Concord or Ryde. The 80 acres was probably an original grant of land to one of the convicts/settlers. Up to 1865 I believe it's still the original 80 acres.
Think I've worn a hole in Trove looking for info ;)
A picture or map of that area showing the farm (1860's) would be a hugh bonus ;D
Thanks kindly :-*
Di
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Having trouble digging out the maps, but I am sure they are about. this snipet from LGA is about the area and history. Do you have a owner name to go on please Di?
Neil
http://www.dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/putney
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The only reference I can find to an early owner is the following newspaper ad. -
Sydney Gazette and NSW Advertiser – 2 Oct 1813
CAUTION
All Persons are strictly cautioned against suffering their Cattle or other Stock to trespass on the Farm at Concord, my Property (known by the Name of Concord Farm), as I am determined to impound all Cattle that may be found trespassing thereon; and likewise rigidly prosecute the Owners for all Damage that may be sustained. Richard Wescott.
There's a death for possibly this guy in 1826. No further sighting of the farm until 1854 when it was to be let.
The Putney link is great - thanks for that.
Di
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Bit more
http://www.ryde.nsw.gov.au/About+Ryde/Historic+Ryde/History+of+Ryde
Neil
Whoops didn't carry over. This bit with an early map
http://www.dictionaryofsydney.org/map/76601?zoom_highlight=concord
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Thanks for the links Neil.
I'm having trouble with an exact location of the farm. The original "To Let" says "opposite to Ryde". Wonder if that means the farm was south of the Parramatta River or North of the river on the Kissing Point peninsula area. It appears that Concord itself, it those days, covered a larger area than what we know today.
Shall keep looking ...
Much appreciated
Di
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Your right the original concord covered a much larger area than the South of the River Concord as we have today.
Kissing Point is on the North shore in Ryde area and was an original part of Concord.
I cant get any listing for the Farm, unusual ??? But it must have been there and I think on the north side as it had the orchard.
Will keep looking, spent a bit time in that area a couple years ago.
Neil
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The menton of Kissing Point makes me think it's north side but who knows where everything was in those days! Renaming and reallocation of boundaries could be confusing the issue.
Frustrating but something's sure to turn up somewhere - hopefully
Thanks
Di
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Trivia.
BDM's
V18266801 2C/1826 RICHARD WESCOTT Died AGE 65
Little on other members that may give a clue ???
Neil
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Hi
My husband's GGGrandfather was born at Longbottom ( I think this was the early name for Concord) a lot of information on Longbottom Farm.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17005869?searchTerm=longbottom farm&searchLimits=
Muss
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You can check this on Google Earth!!!
Burwood Road Concord, A small Peninsular of Land between Exile Bay and Canada Bay running down to Bayview Park.
At least I think thats where it was.
Neil
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Hi
My husband's GGGrandfather was born at Longbottom ( I think this was the early name for Concord) a lot of information on Longbottom Farm.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17005869?searchTerm=longbottom farm&searchLimits=
Muss
Thanks Muss - I've never heard of Longbottom but they do seem to have changed so many of the original names that it doesn't make it any easier looking for one tiny farm in the middle of Sydney ::)
Thanks Neil - I found the Canada Bay peninsular on Google Maps as suggested but that area doesn't appear to be anywhere near Kissing Point/Ryde. Very frustrating ???
I saw the death for Richard Wescott in 1826. I thought he may have been a convict ex Devon but haven't looked any further. Not a lot of information about him online either ... unless his name was Westcott?
Di
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http://blog.sl.nsw.gov.au/erecords/index.cfm/2012/1/13/nsw-parish-maps
http://parishmaps.lands.nsw.gov.au/pmap.html
Di, I think You need to find the mid 19thC maps for the County of CUMBERLAND, Parish of CONCORD. The NSW Lands dept link is not exactly user friendly BUT it will be the way to go !
I think you need images from barcode 140949 and there abouts. I think Sheet number “6” may have landholders names on it, from when the Robertson Act of 1861 started to about mid 1880’s.
PS, if anyone knows how to make the lands dept’s parishmaps website more user friendly, please please please let me know.
I too have some trivia ….
About 1965. JM and her father are in Sydney visiting one of his many siblings. We were staying with his Dad & Mum at Top Ryde.. He wanted to go to one of his sisters for lunch. My auntie lived at Cabarita. It took us MANY hours to get there….. We relied on my Dad’s sense of direction. So we caught a bus to Wynyard, via the old Wooden Gladesville Bridge. Then we walked to Central, and caught a train to Ashfield. Then we changed trains (for some unknown reason) and got off at Burwood. Then we caught a cab ! Auntie got a neighbour to drive us back across to Top Ryde after we had a very late lunch. Dad maintained the delays were caused by the government stopping the TRAMS out to Watsons Bay. ….. Dad had very good sense of direction OUT IN THE BUSH, but was bushed in the city.
Cheers, JM
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Excellent JM - thanks for the direct link.
I've been trying to find that info all day ::) although it looks like I could be rather busy trying to find the right place anyway.
I've also just realised that the farm may be south of the river because the original ad. says "situate on the Parramatta River opposite to Ryde, and within a pleasant distance of Sydney, by either land or water."
As far as I can see, none of the bridges were built until well after 1875 which means it would be rather a challenge trying to get from the Ryde side to Sydney BY LAND if there's no bridge. A journey somewhat like your journey - a long a tedious trip ;D
Thanks for your help
Di
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NSW ER 1870 CANTERBURY
John ABBOTT residence CONCORD
William WILKINS, householder at LONGBOTTOM
Joseph BAGUST, householder, Parramatta Road, LONGBOTTOM
William BARCLAY, freeholder, Longbottom and Burwood
Canterbury covered parts of BOTANY, CONCORD, WATERLOO, KINGSTON, ASHFIELD, FIVEDOCK, -PETERSHAM, WAVERLEY, BURWOOD, MARRICKVILLE, ST PETERS, WOOLLAHRA, RANDWICK, ST PETERS, BALMAIN ESTATE, PARISH OF ST GEORGE, TEMPE, ARNCLIFFE and other localities. I cannot see any that were NORTH of Parramatta River.
Cheers, JM
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Do you mean Cumberland rather than Canterbury?
I have 1856ER - North Riding of Cumberland which lists places such as Lane Cove, Greenwich, Concord, Parramatta Road, Longbottom!! , Five Dock etc.
I see what you mean about the Parish Maps - a total headache :o. Surely they can do something better or we're missing the obvious ???
Di
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NO ;D The electorate in 1870 was CANTERBURY. ;D And the one further west was CENTRAL CUMBERLAND as in Parramatta and a tad west of Ptta. Mind you, the electorate for Ryde in 1870 was ST LEONARDS which went basically from Brooklyn SOUTH as far as the Parramatta River, and in the west to at least Dundas and in the east to Manly ;D
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Re that Parish Map website ..... I rarely even offer it cause it gives me a headache. There must be someone cluely on the Tech board here at RChat that could give us some advice. Would you like me to start a thread there and ask for advice. Afterall, I am old enough to offer that I am having an extended senior moment with that website.
PS, the maps are on CD at NSW SRO at Kingswood and are much easier to use there. ..... Well the maps were there around four or five years ago ;D I think colloquially known as the TRIG maps ;D
JM
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Thanks for the clarification. Just knew there'd be some logic in all of this - NOT!
It's like knocking your head against a brick wall ::)
The only good news is when you stop trying to make sense of it all ;)
Oh well - back to the maps for another attempt ;D
- but firstly need a strong coffee!
Di
Red warning ...
TRIG MAPS ... not quite what I'd call 'em ;D
Feel free to see if anyone has found a miracle answer to those maps. I can't see that there's any easy way because of the way there's been scanned. If they'd done one big scan with an option to zoom and move the map around, then it would be OK. But individual maps and no ability to move it is just plain dumb.
Sorry - Rant over
back to those trig... maps!!
Cheers
Di
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,623293.0.html
Fingers crossed there's some technical help along sooonnnnnnnnnnn ::)
I see that Mr ODD has not offered any advice re the map link ::) I have probably caused headaches for him in the past too ::)
Cheers, JM
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Def. fingers crossed - just hope someone somewhere can do the impossible ???
I'm going to look across the bay as well - must be a glutton for punishment ;D
Di
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Di, have a look at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=623293.new#new
Regards
Malky
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I will tell you why I never opted to offer help with those "TRIG" maps. Several years back some "IDIOT" in Nth England sent me a link to the one's in the town where my lot came from..... It must have been the same guy who put those maps together for our fine State tooooo. It took me several years to get over the experience :P :-[ :-X :-\ :'( ;) :o
Neil.... ???
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:-[ Have I mentioned that my professional experiences are as an Engineering Draftsman .... And as a female, I was not at all offended nor thought the title was 'sexist' etc despite qualifying back in the days before Political Correctness altered the title of the occupation to Drafter.
JM :-[ :-[ :-[ OH has promised he will take a quick peek later today or tomorrow to see if he can find Concord Farm on any of the maps. (He's the Ginger Beer in our household)
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As the Mr Wescott was dead by 1826 :'( I dont think his name or the farm name existed when these hystericle maps were drawn and I dont think they are "TRIG" ummmm could be Cadastal maps.
They are photographic images and result from passes of a 25mm camera across the Veeeeeeeery large maps. Probably done pre WW2 and never updated to Digital images.
I have just gone over all those bits south of Kissing point and Putney point and not found any mention of the farm ???
I am Lost ... please send search party.
Neil
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I reckon it was most likely fronting Parramatta Road perhaps around "Liberty Plains" .... so I think Neil needs to swim across the river quick smart before he gets further lost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Plains_Parish,_Cumberland
JM
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1840 map at National Library in Canberra
http://nla.gov.au/nla.map-f263
JM
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I think they built a cemetery at Liberty Plains area ROOKWOOD.
I was going off the description.......JM
charming property, situate on the Parramatta River opposite to Ryde, and within a pleasant distance of Sydney, by either land or water....... ;)
Neil not as lost as Jm ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi
I live in Concord, if you look at the present day maps there is Burwood Road ( from Burwood over Parramatta Rood, and onto Bayview Park.
In the early days Burwood Rd was called Wharf road, ( I seem to remember reading that there was a wharf at what is now Bayview Park, when they used to use the river to transport goods ect). a search of Trove has a few adds in the 1800's for farms in Wharf road where they talk about fruit trees ect.
Hope this helps,
Cass
PS even with all the developement the citrus trees still give us lots of lovelly fruit, also Longbottom was the name of the convict Stockade on Parramatta Road, near St Lukes Oval, the convicts stayed overnight on the trip to Parramatta
http://www.afloat.com.au/afloat-magazine/archive/2007_December2007_AsliceofCanadainSydneybyGregoryBlaxell.htm
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Di, have a look at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=623293.new#new
Regards
Malky
You're a treasure Malky - thanks ever so much :-*
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1840 map at National Library in Canberra
http://nla.gov.au/nla.map-f263
JM
Now that's what a map is supposed to be like - and dated 1860 to! Shall go traipsing around Concord AGAIN. I'm getting sore feet with all this walking.
If I see a lad looking lost somewhere in the area I'll know it you Neil ;D
Thanks for the Concord info Cass. It appears that Longbottom is off the list of "possibles" if it's over Parramatta Rd area. That cuts the search grid down.
Now back to Trove for a Wharf Rd/fruit tree lookup ;D
Brilliant lot of help and information from everyone - many many thanks
:-* :-*
Di
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Di why don't you email Ryde City Council 's local history dept.
Their local historian is Angela * who used to be at SAG and knows how important it is for family historians to know these things.
She might have some info. She helped me with info re Brush Farm which came under Ryde's jurisdiction at some stage.
Dawn M
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Good idea Dawn. I'll also try the Concord council in case it was on their turf.
Cheers
Di
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Try "City of Canada Bay" Thats what it (Concord) is called now.
Good luck with that request, interesting pic on their website with a pic of a Peninsular.
Neil
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Sands 1892 Suburban Directory CONCORD
Crane Street
Five Dock to Mortlake street
Thomas CARRATT
Charles A WYLIE., “Concord house”
James BLACK, engineer
Mrs POTTER, ladies nurse
Mrs LIDBURY, ladies nurse
George A POTTER
General Supply Co, G H Ibberson, grocer and store keeper
So, could “CONCORD HOUSE” in 1892 be connected with “CONCORD FARM” from earlier decades?
Cheers, JM
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Try "City of Canada Bay" Thats what it (Concord) is called now.
Good luck with that request, interesting pic on their website with a pic of a Peninsular.
Neil
Thanks Neil - was going to try "Concord Council" ::)
I'll check the "interesting pic" as well. Who knows, it might be just the place we've been looking for :-\
Interesting to see "Concord House" JM.
No idea if it's the same place although I have my doubts. I would have expected the 80 acres property to have been totally redeveloped by 1892 and all buildings demolished. Concord Farm was right on the river front and that land would have been worth a penny or two.
Thanks for your help
Di
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Hi
Hoping this link to an old map will work?
http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview/?pi=nla.map-raa40-s16-e
Rhonda
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This is from Cass reply 27 I think?
In the early days Burwood Rd was called Wharf road, ( I seem to remember reading that there was a wharf at what is now Bayview Park, when they used to use the river to transport goods ect). a search of Trove has a few adds in the 1800's for farms in Wharf road where they talk about fruit trees ect.
This is from me reply 9 I think?
Burwood Road Concord, A small Peninsular of Land between Exile Bay and Canada Bay running down to Bayview Park.
Neil
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Thanks Rhonda, the link works perfectly.
I've been over that map many times now looking for the location of every wharf because a SMH article in 1864 says the following:
"EXCURSION TO PARRAMATTA RIVER-The Sabbath school scholars belonging to the Scots Church, Church hill, celebrated their first annual picnic yesterday at the grounds of Mr. J. Medcalf, Concord. The company, numbering about 300, left the Phoenix Wharf at half-past nine o'clock, arriving at Concord shortly after ten. Cricket, football, swinging, and other suitable games, were at once entered into with the utmost zeal and heartiness by many, others preferring a ramble in quest of nature's beauties, or engaging in their favourite angling. At one o'clock luncheon was dispensed to appease the vigorous appetites of the oldsters as well as the youngsters. The eatables and drinkables - provided in profusion and of A1 quality - having disappeared, by the force of circumstances, the various amusements were resumed and sustained - with the exception of a short pause for a distribution of confectionery and oranges - until the time for departure drew nigh. The proceedings were agreeably diversified by the gratuitous services of a drum and fife band, its enlivening strains being highly appreciated. The steamer arrived in Sydney after six o'clock.
SCOTS CHURCH SABBATH SCHOOL EXCURSION.-The children belonging to the Sabbath school connected with the Scots Church, Church-hill, wore entertained yesterday with on excursion to Concord on the Parramatta River. The steamer Pelican was engaged for the occasion, and conveyed about 100 children with their teachers to the spot selected, where they amused themselves with various sports, and returned to Sydney at an early hour, having much enjoyed the day's recreation, the weather proving very auspicious. The Volunteer Drum and Fife Band accompanied the party."
I believe that most ferries were paddle steamers at that time (please correct me if I'm wrong) and therefore there had to be a large wharf near Concord Farm - or 300 people had a long walk (which I doubt)
So if anyone knows how fast a paddle steamer travels in 30+ minutes from Phoenix wharf, then you can pin-point the wharf where they landed - and that just maybe at the end of Wharf Road :-\
Sounds just too easy, doesn't it ;D ;D
Cheers
Di
BTW - As far as I can see Medcalf leased the property from 1854 - 1865 approx
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The current google maps have a wharf at Mortlake on the narrow Peninsula (where Batchelors / Green Point was located) for the ferry connection to Putney.
Rhonda
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Thanks Rhonda - On the nla map you gave the link for previously there appears to have been a wharf on nearly every peninsular in that area. I don't know which ones could take a large ferry/steamer in 1864. Some may have just been big enough for small boats.
Di
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Hi
The Correys Pleasure Gardens where at Cabarita in the late 1890 , in the SMH 21.11.1890 page 3 there is an article which states that thousands visited the pleasure Gardens near Mortlake. Cabarita Park,which is still there today, is across the bay from Mortlake where the Gas Works used to be, now days the site of a large expensive housing estate called Breakfast Point. On 5 February 1788 Captain John Hunter's stopped there for breakfast when exploring the Parramtta River.
Maybe the picnics where at Cabarita Park, its still a popular Picnic spot.
Cass
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It would be great to tie The Correys Pleasure Gardens with Concord Farm Cass but I haven't found anything about the farm where they had many picnics/outings after about 1865.
It's almost like the farm was cut up for housing or something - strange how it's just vanished ???
Di
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A few names and dates.
9th October 1813, Richard Wescott farmed a property locally called Concord Farm.
11th September 1854, Thomas Medcalf advertised rooms to let at Concord Farm. States that the farm is on the river, close to where the steam ferry runs from. Reply to T. M. Ryde Post Office
He was still farming there in 1859.
19th March 1855, William Hilliard advertised a warning to the owners of straying cattle that the cattle would be sent to the pound. He also warned them who were "stealling" wood from Concord Farm that they would be prosecuted as thieves.
1875, John Mills was buying cattle etc for Concord Farm.
1876, John Mills was selling cattle at the Mushwellbrook Show.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=%22Concord+Farm%22&s=0
Regards
Malky
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Thanks for the list Malky.
Interesting to note the mention of the farm being close to where the steam ferry runs from. Confirms that we should be looking at the areas where there's a wharf.
Unfortunately the John Mills mentioned in 1875 and thereafter lives at Concord Farm, Denman. Denman is in the Hunter Valley/ Maitland/ Muswellbrook region (north of Sydney) so unfortunately not the Concord Farm in Sydney.
Many thanks for your help
Di
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Yes, I noticed that (Denman) but was curious to the Ryde Post Office bit. I see New Ryde is North of the river, but was unsure of where Ryde would have been at that time, North or South. I also found another Concord Farm to the West of Sydney mentioned in a letter from a soldier in WWI in 1917. It was to a Miss Winnie Shire, Concord Farm, Curra.
I also noted the bit about the stray horse and the brand JV. There is a list of horse brands from 1800 in the archives but they are not online. Perhaps, a lead there.
Regards
Malky
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Oh blimey I never thought to follow up on the horse brand ::) What an excellent idea.
The horse probably came from another farm nearby and that might, at least, show the farm as being either north or south of the river (unless the horse swam across the river ;D )
Had to laugh at the following advertisement:
"..Strayed, on Sunday last, a brindled Cow, brand G off hip. Whoever will bring her to No. 16,
corner of York and Barrack streets, or to Mr. MEDCALF, Concord .."
Can just imagine someone walking down York Street leading a cow!!
Di
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Hi Di
"situate on the Parramatta River opposite to Ryde" somewhat narrows down the location. The most obvious being Mortlake which shows as a 'longer' wharf compared to Rocky Pt (Walkers property?), Yaralla and Gas wharf. Cabarita also had a longer wharf.
Rhonda
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Can just imagine someone walking down York Street leading a cow!!
Me late Dad was atop the bullock dray with bales of wool going down Sussex St back during The Great Depression ;D
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Not sure, but this map may hold the key. I just dont have access, if someone can get a pic of it?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/34447049?q=subject%3A%22Land+grants+--+New+South+Wales+--+Concord+--+Maps.%22&c=map&versionId=42600659
Neil
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I think Neil's found the key :) I think the NSW State Library holds many MAPS :)
Now we need someone to go up to Macquarie Street and visit the Library
JM
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According to NLA:
there's BEMI and KNAPP maps for Concord circa 1833, 1837 at the NSW State Library.
I am very sure (from my own research) that BEMI and KNAPP were Survey/Draughtsmen working for NSW Surveyor General's Office (Oxley and then Mitchell were S/Generals)
Cheers, JM
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NSW SRO FIELD BOOKS
1858 Survey by Birmingham F W included Lots in the Parish of Concord.
His field book is extant and is held by NSW SRO ;D
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=17&new=1
Field Books were used extensively to record the number of LINKS (in the chains) from each theodolite reading as noted in the field book, and then back in the Drawing Office, the draughtsmen would use that information to prepare the Scale Drawings.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks folks - good idea Neil.
That sent me map hunting and I've just found this one from the 1850's
http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview/?pi=nla.map-f333-sd&rgn=&prevwidth=400&width=1200
(hope that works?)
The top part shows owners and acreage for Glade's grant (50 acres) I'm trying to see which river front properties would have been 80 acres and were close to a wharf.
Di
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That map shows the North Shore and Glades Grant Later to become Gladesville and has the biiiiig bridge over the River on Victoria Road.
I think yours is to the southof the river?
Neil
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OK - here's north AND south with some acreages and names - 1860
I didn't notice the Victoria Road bridge on the other one ::)
Di
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Umm no map!
I think you will find that Gladesville Bridge wasn't actually built until the mid 1960's. I was just pointing out the area it shows. Victoria Road wasn't named also untill late 1800's early 1900's. Prior to That it was "The Great North Road"
and is shown on the map you presented.
What was lacking was detail on the south Shore Concord area. I believe you will need an ealier version up to say 1850, before any further subdivisions took place and a list of the owners from the original grant. Late 1790's or maybe up to 1805.
If I am correct it was to a free settler or ex garrison soldier 40 acres his wife 20 acres and two children 20acres, 10 each. Which should make up 80 acres.
Lots of these had to be improved to keep the grants and maintained for a number of years and then could be split up, but I dont think this was allowed untill around 1846. So still original land grant until about then.
Neil
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DOH!
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s5k/
Hopefully this is the right map ;D
As you suggest an earlier map would be a far better option but Concord Farm was still on 80 acres at the time this map was produced. Doesn't help a whole lot unfortunately as the farm/property names aren't mentioned.
Di
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Map is OK, but who owned the 8o acres in 1860, have I forgot that bit :P :-[
If you look at the map where it has the word concord, you will see one for Bishop 110, I believe this to acres. Further to the left or West is one for Hudson about 90 acres and one for Morgan around 80 acres. They are guestimets without a guide, but reasonably right.
Neil
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Map is OK, but who owned the 8o acres in 1860, have I forgot that bit :P :-[
Neil
No, you're not getting forgetful ;D
We don't know who owned it in the 1860's but a guy called Richard Wescott owned it in 1813
I was looking for any property that looked like it was abt 80 acres on the river front and there aren't many of those. I agree with your acres noted on the map. Anything about the size of Morgan's should be about the right size to be the Concord farm.
I'll keep looking ...
Thanks
Di
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The original advert for this property was:
Empire [Newspaper] (Sydney) 6 July 1854
CONCORD FARM
TO BE LET the above charming property, situate on the Parramatta River opposite to Ryde, and within a pleasant distance of Sydney, by either land or water. It comprises a large Cottage, Stables, Coach-house, Farm-yard, &c, &c; 80 acres, more or less, of good land, well cleared, and fit for grazing. A fruitful Orange Orchard and Garden well stocked with Fruit trees. Possession can be given on the 22nd instant. Apply to
GEORGE THORNE AND CO.
York-street
I have just found another advert. from The Argus (Melb) dated 18 July 1854 and I believe this may be the same property.
CONCORD.-To Let. This healthy, picturesque, and productive property is situate on the south side of the River, half-way between Parramatta and Sydney; a road through the district connects it with the main-road, affording easy access by land to the city.
A steamer now plies, and the new line of steamers will pass the door at regulated hours daily.
There is a large-size Stone Cottage, with cellar and attics the whole length of the premises; with detached kitchen, laundry, coach house, four-stall stable, and men’s room; also a log barn, &c.
The land contains seventy-five acres, subdivided into grass paddocks, cleared of stumps. There is a large productive deeply-trenched kitchen-garden; an orange plantation in full bearing, of the choicest sorts of oranges, besides other fruit-trees and vines.
To a mercantile gentleman, or public officer, this presents a rare opportunity, as a market gardener could be profitably employed on the estate. The properties on each side of the river are occupied by wealthy and respectable parties.
For further particulars apply to Messrs. GEORGE THORNE and CO., Merchants, Sydney
It might be wishful thinking on my part but if it's the same property then I have a close approx location which is good news :D
If not, then it's back to square 1 :(
Is it the same property?
Your opinions would be very welcome
Thanks
Di
(apologies for the long post ::) )
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Hi Di
Opposite Ryde suggests to me it was the south side of the River, and the description sounds more or less the same. It is logical a place called 'Concord Farm' was at Concord. :)
Rhonda
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Many thanks Rhonda
It's been a right headache trying to establish where the property is exactly.
Some earlier references said Kissing Point or Ryde or Concord - in which case it could have been either side of the river.
Having just found the second advert which states a farm to let is on the south side I was hoping I wasn't reading the 2nd advert incorrectly.
I just needed a second opion/confirmation that both ad's are for the same farm.
Thanks for your help
Di
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I had a look today for information on George Thorne in the hope that we get some info on the farm from him. No luck, Unfortunatley; he was pretty prominent later on though, as he was the first Governor of the Sydney Stock Exchange.
Fully concur with Rhonda about the south area and it being in the harbour area of Concord. Still need an early map! Which is probably kicking around in the Mitchell library or somewhere.
Neil
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Thanks a lot Neil.
I also had a look for George Thorne but there appears to be more than one by this name. Wasn't sure which one was the "Merchant" who advertised the property. First sighting of "George Thorne & Co" appeared to be 1848 so looks like that's when he started his business.
Appreciate your help
Di
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You may have read this, but I still attach.
http://www.capecabarita.com.au/history.htm
Interesting stuff 8)
There is a note at the bottom for further information you can contact the webmaster. Tha ma yeild some enlightening maps :o
Neil
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Thanks for the link and info Neil.
After a lot of searching and map hunting/reading there appears to be very few land grants for specifically 75 acres in the right area (opposite Ryde & Kissing Point)
William Morgan had two grants totalling 80 acres (yellow on map) but although the original grantee died in 1853 his family appear to still live there in 1856 (Electoral Roll)
Nichols (Pink on map) had a couple of grants but got into financial trouble and his land was bought by Thomas Walker and Walker built Yaralla on that land (home still exists today)
The only grant I can see on this map for 75 acres exactly (yellow) is that granted in 1795 to three guys (Butcher,Roberts and Miller) They called the farm "Batchelor's Hall" I can find nothing else about these three guys.
The land around Hen & Chicken Bay (green) was subdivided in 1856 and sold off in small 1 or two acre lots so that rules that area out.
... not that you REALLY wanted to know all that info ;D
Thanks for your help
Di
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If it is of any help:
In 1815 Richard WESTCOTT (3 Pitt St Sydney) advertised for sale (Trove) Burr's Farm, in the district of Concord, 60 acres (and Serjeant Day's Farm -25 acres).
In October 1816, the Provost Marshall advertised an auction of a farm formerly known as Burr's farm in Concord in Campbell v WESCOTT.
It does look as though this Richard Wes(t)cott was the convict transported per Indian in 1810, also his wife Jane (Canada II, 1808) jointly convicted in Devon of possessing a forged pound note. They were living together in York St in 1822-4.
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Hi repatdoc
Welcome to Rootschat and many thanks for your help.
It's been a while since I last looked for Concord Farm but your information might just be the lead I need to find exactly where the farm was located.
I'm hoping that Burr's Farm and Day's Farm are located side by side and were purchased by the same person. Hopefully the new extended property was then leased during the 1850's.
Thanks
Di
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Hi Di,
I am joining this query a bit on the late side (story of my life!!) but I think you will find William Morgan is the legal husband of the infamous Molly Morgan. After he got fed up with Molly and her infidelities with Nicholas Nepean and other soldiers he left her and took up with the widow Eleanor Frazer, wife of a friend. Eleanor (nee Redchester) had been granted the land at Concord on the death of her husband, William Frazer, one of the colony's first blacksmiths. Eleanor and William Frazer were convicts. William Morgan also got a grant next door if my memory serve me correctly. On Eleanor's death in the 1820s (from memory) I think the land was left to one of the Frazer sons who always went by the name of Morgan although I am sure he was the son of William Frazer. Eleanor Frazer and William Morgan had parted company but the children seem to have kept the name Morgan.
Andcarred
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:)
Eleanor FRAZER letters 20 Feb 1794 and 22 July 1795. On the NSW Col Sec’s list of all grants and leases of land
William MORGAN, letters 20 Feb 1794 and 22 July 1795. On the NSW Col Sec’s list of all grants and leases of land. Col Sec’s index shows William MORGAN as a Settler at Concord.
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/default.htm I understand that Ancestry has a current partnership arrangement with NSW State Records re images of the Col Sec’s papers 1788-1825
Cheers, JM
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1797 Ann, daughter of William Morgan and Elenor Morgan, born 8 Sept 1797, baptised 15 Nov 1797, registered St Philip’s C of E
1800 Lucy, daughter of William Morgan and Eleanor Fraser, born 29 March 1800, baptised 7 August 1803, registered St Philip’s
1802 William son of William Morgan and Eleanor Fraser, born 26 Jan 1802, baptised 7 August 1803, registered St Philip’s
1804 Sarah, daughter of William Morgan and Eleanor Frazer, born 16 Feb 1804, baptised 4 Nov 1804 by Rev Samuel Marsden, registered at St John C of E, Parramatta on 4 Nov 1804
1806 Richard, son of William Morgan and Elenor Frazier born 2 Nov 1802, baptised 29 March 1812, by Rev Samuel Marsden, registered at St John’s C of E, Parraatta
Ellen FRASER, per Charlotte or per Prince of Wales 1788, 23 years, born Lancashire, sentence of 7 years for felony. Two spouse 1 William Fraser married in England ; 2 William Morgan, no formal marriage found.
Seven children, died 1840,
July 1800
Eleanor Fraser Land Granted 20 Feb 1794, Concord. Cultivated, 16 acres maize. No stock, proprietor and 4 children not on Stores.
July 1801
Elenor Frazier, per Charlotte, Free, Land granted by Gov. Grose 1794,
20 Acres, cleared 16 acres
Cultivated 5 acres wheat/maize
2 hogs, 2 family off store
July 1802
Elenor Frazer, per Charlotte, Free, Land Grant Concord
Total 45 acres
Cleared 15 acres
Cultivated 15 acres
Maize
1 male hog, 1 female hog,
Proprietor off stores, 1 woman off stores, 5 children off stores
Aug 1806
Elinor Frazier, per Lady Penrhyn,
Concubine, Children, 2 male natural, 3 female natural
Aug 1806
Eleanor Frazier, per Lady Penrhyn, lives with Morgan
Much more, (musters etc) including
NSW 1828 census
Mrs Eleanor MORGAN, aged 63, Protestant, arrived per Charlotte, 7 years, Free by Servitude. Housekeeper and head of household at Concord. Including her son, Richard Morgan aged 22, born in the colony
Happy to type all the ‘much more’ if this is not already known.
Cheers, JM
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Many thanks Andy & JM
Interesting about the Morgan/Frazer crowd. Somewhere in the back of my mind I have something written about Eliza Frazer - she may have been a relative albeit a distant one.
I'll check and see if anything's reported about their land grant by the mid 1850's
I recall that my lot had a Sunday School Picnic. About 100 people arrived by ferry and it's reported that they (all the Mum's Dad's & kids) walked from the ferry wharf at Concord to the farm for a day of fun and picnicking. Sounds as if the walk was just a short hop from the wharf so I'm guessing that Concord Farm is reasonably close to the water's edge.
Thanks for your help
Di
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:) I think this would be that Sunday School picnic venue :
http://www.weekendnotes.com/yaralla-estate/
http://www.concordheritage.asn.au/walker-estates/overview
I think this would be on the I NICHOLS land, next to the MORGAN land. I think I have a link between Eleanor and Nichols in some scribble notes made yesterday. I will need to check File 13, back shortly.
Recovered File 13, so I add
1828 NSW Census
Eleanor MORGAN, householder at Concord etc etc and the others in the household were:
Thomas HUMPHRIES, 40, Protestant, Life, CP, Labourer
Joseph HUNT, Protestant, 7 years FS, labourer,
Richard MORGAN (detailed earlier post)
Rodger RATTICAR, 50, Protestant, arrived per Castle Forbes, 1823, Life, Servant to Mr NICHOLS.
Edward SMITH, 30, Protestant, per Ocean 1823, Life, Servant to Mr NICHOLS
Thomas SPENCER, 86, Protestant, per Admiral Gambier 1808, Life, Servant to Mr NICHOLS
James WHITE, 39, Protestant, per Atlas 1806, Life, CP, labourer.
I am wondering if Mr NICHOLS was the Isaac NICHOLS, the first Postmaster. I am fairly confident that this would be so. (His mother in law would be Esther Abrahams, wife of George Johnston, the military leader of the coup d’etat that brought down William Bligh).
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/nichols-isaac-2507
This info may help in locating the Nichols land, and then working from that Nichols info ......... :)
Cheers JM
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Now that is very interesting JM as all my research has also pointed to the same conclusion - that Concord Farm was once the Nichols place.
Firstly - Nichols' land is shown on the map on previous page (reply #65)
I have followed the Walker family members and from what I have read Thomas Walker was actually living there in the 1850's/early 1860's. I have been hoping that there's a conflict in the years Thomas went to live in Melbourne and those dates coincided with 1853-1863 when my lot leased the land. The date that Yaralla was reputed to have been built also is a minor problem as that's also in the mid 1850's+.
I have written to the trust & heritage people and the Yaralla Estate itself but have never had a reply.
Frustrating - and frustrated - but still looking ;D
Cheers
Di
edit to add - Yes that's the correct Isaac Nichols. He was the first postmaster but ended up in financial difficulties. On his death he left the land to his sons but Walker bought the mortgage and kicked them out when they were bankrupt. (or something very similar :P )
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I am beginning to think that the 80 acres for lease was that owned by W Morgan who co habited with Eleanor Frazer, see under.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/WILLIAM%20MORGAN.htm
Neil
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:) Yes, well, even by 1830s the population in the settled districts of NSW was less than 40,000 so perhaps one day someone will assemble a fairly accurate database covering 'all' the imported people and their then descendants and upload it for anyone to freely search.....
http://www.bda-online.org.au/ the index is free, there's a subscription per annum about $30 from memory.
Cheers, JM
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Could well be that acreage Neil :)
Cheers, JM
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It is such a tangled web with all the going's on with that lot at Concord and the Knobs at Sydney, insurrections and land grants/Leases/purchases. That unless someone could find all the documents and there would be heaps, the spot may never be known accuratly. But 80 acres of improved land seems more than probable to be the one that was Mr W Morgans lately wheelright of Windsor. He or the inheritor of his estate, would not want it to fall into disrepair and a nice little income earner by rent would seem appropriate. :P
Neil
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A bit more Junk. ;D
The THORN FAMILY....
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gex/
I think the address going off the Map and cross referencing with Google Earth puts the land to the East of Concord Road, South of Myall Street and North Of Yaralla Street. Lots of houses on it now... :-\
Neil
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For others following this thread, may I share, particularly for anyone hunting out NSW ancestors pre 1861 Robertson Land reforms....
old search title deeds using 21st century methods ;D (I can remember decades ago, and even more recently, Lands Titles Office and the BDM section too .... and the dusty old lands titles registers ...., OH and I would take a feather duster with us just to dust down where we were standing to hunt out some detail for either his or my family tree searchings )....
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/150705/Old_System_information.pdf
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/research-topics/land-records/land-records
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/land_ownership/old_system
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/public_registers
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/publications/search_guides
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/mapping_and_imagery/parish_maps and in this instance keywords CUMBERLAND and CONCORD should be of help.
So, using the live link below ;D ;D ;D I quote from their webpage :)
Accessing parish and charting maps
Historical Land Records Viewer (Pixel)
In 2002, charting of the state’s cadastre, or property boundaries, became computerised. The final editions of the charting maps prior to computerisation can be viewed free in the Historical Land Records Viewer (HLRV). The Historical Land Records Viewer is part of the Spatial Information eXchange (SIX). http://images.maps.nsw.gov.au/pixel.htm
If you don't know the name of the parish that contains the properties that interest you, use the Geographical Names Register, in the Geographical Names Board website, to search by locality or suburb. The result of the 'Name' search will include the parish name.
Cheers, JM
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I think Lady Di would want the following parish map, as it seems to me to have good reference nos that will help LPI searchings.
County name : Cumberland
Parish name Concord
Sheet reference 3a
Image name County of Comberland Parish of concord (sheet 3a)
District office name Metropolitian
Filename : mn_phConcord_Sheet)3a_Cumberland.jp2
And Image size (in pixels) 8766/11934
;D ;D ;D
Cheers, JM
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Gosh thanks for all the extra links, suggestions and information.
As I mentioned earlier, a Richard Wescott said that he owned a farm called Concord Farm in 1813 and that tends to contradict a lot of other details and suggestions. I guess it's possible Wescott was only leasing the land from one of the original grantees.
I've been thru almost all the original land grants shown on Ancestry. On these records many of the settlers gave a name to their property but haven't yet found one called Concord Farm unfortunately.
Appreciate your help :-*
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A bit late coming into this discussion but could Concord farm be the farm surrounding Concord Hospital which is the last remaining farm in Sydney...it was a working farm with horse agistment until a couple of years ago. The Thomas Walker estates including Rivendell and Yaralla estates are all part of the farmland that houses Concord hospital now. Rivendell is the original hospital before the Repat hospital was built after WW1. The land is situated on the Parramatta River opposite Putney which is the suburb on the river south of Ryde. Lots of information of Yaralla and Thomas Walker estates on the net.
Regards
Dianne