RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ruskie on Tuesday 06 November 12 05:31 GMT (UK)
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Inspired by an upcoming talk about the Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson, and the fact that some of us are very keen to reread the diary and ALL of our previous posts on the subject in order to relive the excitement and have another go at solving some of the mysteries, I have decided to start a new post. I hope we get some new followers interested in the diary and our discussions. They are both well worth reading.
The link to Part 9 - our final:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,500342.60.html
From the Westminster Archives website:
The life and loves of a Victorian Clerk: an illustrated talk
Monday 12 November, 6.30pm at Maida Vale Library
In 2010, Westminster City Archives published the extraordinary diary of a Victorian teenager, Nathaniel Bryceson.
Brimming with fascinating details of his working life in London and of his relationship with his mistress Ann Fox, the journal is a truly personal take on the life of a young Victorian Londoner as he embarks upon adulthood.
Come and hear our Local Studies Librarian share entertaining and insightful stories from the diary at Maida Vale Library. The talk will be illustrated with images from the collections of Westminster City Archives.
Free event. No booking required
Contact archives {--at--}westminster.gov.uk or maidavalelibrary{--at--}westminster.gov.uk for more information
Some of you might be interested in going to the above talk to represent rootschat. :) I know that many of us would love to be there but as we live in various far flung countries, sadly it is not possible for us to attend.
I am still hoping that some progress has been made regarding publishing the diary in book form. I will make some enquiries about this soon.
I hope it is OK with the rootschat powers that be to revisit this under a new topic in the Common Room. I think if Westminster Archives do wish to publish the book, the assistance of rootschatters in providing some background information to support the diary, may be quite valuable. (That's my excuse anyway. ;D)
So I hope all the old contributors will join in this discussion - new enthusiasts are most welcome!
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To start us off, here is a timeline of events that I have put together will help from Deb and others along the way:
3rd Jan 1750
Matthew Ward (father of step father Matthew Ward) born
14 June 1771
Mary Lea (Granny Shepard) born
chr 26 Jul 1771
Saint Martin, Birmingham
father: Charles Lea
mother: Mary
26th June 1784
Matthew Ward born
chr 25 July 1784
St Mary, St Marylebone Rod, St Marylebone
father: Matthew Ward
mother: Ann
10 May 1796
John Shepard = Mary Lea (Granny Shepard)
St Andrew by the Wardrobe
27 June 1797
Mary Shepard born
chr 23 Jul 1797
Old Church St Pancras
father: John, mother: Mary
9 Oct 1801
Ann Fox born
9 June 1803 -
(Uncle) John Shepard born
chr 3 July 1803
Old Church St Pancras
father: John, mother: Mary
14 Apr 1818
Mary Sheppard = John Bryceson
St Martin in the Fields Westminster
wits: John Shepard, H. Bryceson
28th Apr 1824
John Bryceson, age 39, abode: St Martin in the Field,
buried Pentonville Chapel, St James, Clerkenwell
5th June 1826
Nathaniel White born (in the workhouse)
christened 4 Jul 1826
mother: Mary Bryson
father: Nathaniel White, occupation: Pauper
2nd May 1831
Burial - St Pancras
John Sheppard of Stephen Street age 63 years (so b 1768)
[this may be husband of Granny Sheppard]
1840-1841
Nathaniel worked as errand boy for Miss Isabella Emery
1841 census taken 6/7 June
1841 census
Richmond buildings
Richard Vagg, 39, Tailor, N
Catherine Vagg, 39, N
Nathaniel (surname dittoed) 13 Y
[This may be Nathaniel with Vagg surname simply dittoed - note the address][Matthew Ward is a page away from this family in this census]
1841 census
Mary Bryceson has not been found
1841 census
Richmond Buildings
Matthew Ward 56 tailor Y
1841 census
Stephen St, St Pancras
Sophia Ollive 50 Dressmaker Y
Ann Fox 30 FS Y
1841 census
Stephen Street
Mary Sheppard 73 N (Granny Shepard)
John Sheppard 35 stone mason Y (Uncle John)
Joseph Lloyd 20
Elizabeth Lloyd 25
27th June 1841
St Ann Westminster
Matthew Ward, full age, Tailor, living: Richmonds Buildings, father: Matthew Ward, Tailor
married Mary Bryceson, full age, wid, living: Dean St, father: John Sheperd, mason
18th May 1846
Nathaniel moved into Richmond Buildings
20th May 1846
Granny Shepard moved into Richmond Buildings
1st June 1846
Uncle John Shepard age 43, has his first bath (worthy of a mention in the timeline)
29 Oct 1847
Burial - St Anne, Soho
Mary Ward, Richmond Buildings, age 50 (so born 1797)
1851 census
Tottenham Court
Strand Union workhouse
Mary Shepard, wid, 80, mangler b Birmingham
(26 pages of inmates here)
1851 census
Matthew Ward has not been found
(no death found)
1851 census
9 Richmond Buildings
John Shepard 47 stone sawyer b St Pancras
Nathaniel Bryceson nephew 24 b Marylebone
1851 census
27 Stephen Street
Cock Family
John Burns
Mary Elizth Kennington, unm 63, mangling, b Middlesex, St James Piccadilly
Ann Fox, 49, Charwoman, b Middlesex, Queen St
20th Nov 1851
Parish of St Pancras
Mary Shepard buried, age 80, abode: Infirmary
1852
Nathaniel moved from Richmond Buildings to Islington
June 18 1854
Nathaniel Bryceson, full age, commercial clerk, residence: Edwards Cottages, father: Nathaniel Bryceson, cabinet maker
married Sarah Clark
1861 census
10 Edward's Cottages, Islington
Nathaniel 34 coal merchant's clerk b Marylebone
Sarah wife b Herts Barnet
Nathaniel son 4 b Islington
Sarah M daur 2
John S son 1
1861 census
6 Douglas Street, Westminster
John Shepard lodger unmar 57 stone sawyer b St Pancras
1868
death certificate: John Sheperd, male age 64 years, Stone Sawyer,
died 17 Jan 1868 6 Douglas Street, Westminster,
Diarrhoea 5 weeks,
Informant: Jane Sulch/Lulch, present at the death
1871 census
10 Edwards Cottages, Islington
Nathaniel 44 coal merchant's clerk b Marylebone
Sarah 45 b Herts Barnet
Nathaniel son 14 errand boy b Islington
Sarah M daur 12
John S son 10
Henry son 7
1881 census
48 Essex Rd, Islington Green Nth
Nathaniel 54 accountant
Sarah wife 55
Nathaniel son 24 undertaker
Sarah daur 22
John son 21 compositor
Henry son 17 builder's labourer
1890
Sarah, Nathaniel's wife died
1891 census
4 Charlton Place, Islington
Nathaniel head wid 65 accountant
Henry son 27 unmar timekeeper
Nathaniel is listed in Kelly's till 1895 as an accountant
1901 census
Warren Street, Clerkenwell
Nathaniel 74 widr commercial clerk b St.Marylebone
Emma Morris servt single 64 b St Giles in the Fields
23rd March 1911
Nathaniel died, 102 Dempsey St, Stepney (at his daughter Sarah Stangroom's house)
Son Henry was the informant.
Cause of death: Senile Degeneration Exhaustion
Buried Islington Cemetery, Finchley
[Bryceson Nathaniel; No. 139239; Abode, Dempsey St, Stepney; Class 2; V2; 1229P - buried with son Nathaniel who died in February 1911]
[info about later years from intro to diary on Westminster Archvies site - needs expanding]
Islington Cemetery in Finchley.
February 1911
Name: Bryceson Nathaniel; No. 138957; Abode (!) Royal Free Hospital; Class of grave, 3; Block V2 Grave 1229P
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Hello everyone.
I'm afraid I can't make the talk, but I'll try and get my head around the Nathaniel saga again (at the moment I'm chasing the life of another diary figure - Turner Roope - from the pages of James Woodforde's diary. 3 marriages, debtors prison and a life in the West Indies. Plenty for me to get my head around)
Just as a random thought, as I haven't looked yet - the enigmatic Ann Fox . We've got her birthday - 9 October 1801 - and where she was born - Queen Street Middlesex - have we gone through parish registers for Queen Street (at the moment I don't even know which parish it is in) looking for an Ann born or baptised around that date? I know there will be a lot of Anns but I'm just wondering that if we can find a few suitable candidates we could then see if any of them went onto marry a Mr Fox, because as we know so little about her we don't even know if she was married or not do we?
I haven't got time at the moment to look, but perhaps it's a thought? It is a long shot I know but I'm just trying to think of something we may not have tried (although perhaps we have and I've just forgotten about it!)
Carole
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Looking forward to following this again! I can't go to the talk either, unfortunately.
Please could someone direct me to where it's possible to re-read the diary, as my link stopped working at the end of that year?
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Here you go Aniseed:
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/victorian-clerk/
Carole, I need to re read to get it all fresh in my mind again (I have an awful memory), but I think that Ann was born in either Queen or Green St (we couldn't be sure because the writing was unclear). I remember thinking I had struck gold finding a Queen St in the vicinity of Soho, but then the heart sank as I found another ... and another. :-\ But every avenue is well worth reinvestigating. Like you, I can't remember what we have already searched for.
I did dig up a list of questions which I put together which I will post shortly.
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Here it is (quite lengthy I'm sorry):
UNFINISHED BUSINESS
A little background information and loose ends we would like to tidy up:
Matthew Ward does not appear to be on 1851 census - did he die before then? We might be looking for his death betweeen December 1846 (when Nathaniel finishes his diary) and March 1851 (when the census was taken)?
Looking for Nathaniel's mother Mary Bryceson in 1841? The 1841 census was taken 6/7 June. Mary married Matthew Ward on the 27th June and she said she lived at Dean St then. Matthew Ward is at Richmond Buildings in 1841 and says his address is Richmond Buildings on his marriage cert. Where is Mary?
Where is Nathaniel in the 1841 census? As discussed at length, someone on Ancestry has made an alteration to the 1841 census transcription saying that a Nathaniel Bryceson is living in Shoreditch with someone called Ann, a weaveress, who appears to be his mother plus several siblings. However we have traced this family and this is not our Nat. There is even some debate over the surname which looks more like Bryan and doesn't appear to be long enough to be Bryceson. Also Nathaniel never mentions any siblings.I found a Vagg family in 13 Richmond Buildings.The head, Richard Vagg is a tailor (as is Matthew Ward so perhaps they knew eachother).There doesn't appear to be births/baptisms for any children for the Vaggs. The Nathaniel with them just has the surname dittoed and the age is right to be our Nat so I wonder if he was lodging with or just visiting the Vaggs and the surname was dittoed in error?
Looking for Nathaniel White, Nat's father, and his death? Why was he in the Workhouse? How did Mary know him? Why was she involved with a pauper in the WH? He is named as the father on the baptism entry so he acknowledged that he is the father. We know that the parish was chasing him for money for support prior to Nathaniel's birth.Is there any more info about this in any records? Are there any WH records which name Nathaniel White, or give details of our Nat's birth? Which WH might he have been born in? Was Mary also in the WH? I have traced a Nathaniel White, chair maker through the censuses - he appears to be single throughout. He lives Marylebone. Is he Nat's real father?
Did Nat know his real father was Nathaniel White. At one stage he told us that he found Bryceseon graves in St paul's Covent Gdn. He was a White rather than a Bryceson so we think he might not have known the truth at this stage. However his ggggrandson Steven Saxby recalls his grandmother mentioning illegitimacy in the family and also mentioning the surname White, so it seems Nathaniel may have learnt the truth at some stage in his life and this was passed down through the family.
Is there a death for uncle John Shepard? He is living alone on the 1861 census - age 57.I can't find him in the 1871 census so did he die in between censuses?[ Yes, death found and certificate purchased.]
Where is Ann Fox in 1861? She is living with Mrs Kennington in Stephen Street in 1851. If she died before 1861 where is her death/burial? The 1851 says she was born Middx Queen or Green St - can we decipher and locate this and find her birth? Due to the fact that she attended Tottenham Court Road Chapel, it has been suggested that she may have been non-conformist. Are there any non-conformist records for the area?
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Thank you very much for the link Ruskie, I appreciate it.
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I've nothing to add fact-wise, but I wanted to say that it's nice that this topic is being discussed again, and that there's the hope of new discoveries. I was certainly one of the ones who got very into all this first time around :)
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I've nothing to add fact-wise, but I wanted to say that it's nice that this topic is being discussed again, and that there's the hope of new discoveries. I was certainly one of the ones who got very into all this first time around :)
Glad that you have returned drykid. You never know, you may have a bright idea which leads to a new discovery.
As well as our regular contributors, I am hoping that some new blood will join us. (I hope people are not put off by the length and number of our previous threads), but if they only read the diary, they may be able to look at it through fresh eyes, and could very well have some worthwhile contributions to make. ;D
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As we know so little of Ann Fox, we don't even know if she was married or not - I listed all the men with the surname Fox who married plain Anns on Ancestry's London BMDs 1816-1846 made a note of the Anns surnames and then tried to find their baptisms, as many parishes at that time made a note of the date of birth as well as the date of baptism there was a (very) remote chance that I might have found Ann Fox, if she had got married as we know her date of birth. I didn't expect to find her and I was right! It was just too hit or miss.
Carole
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Glad that you have returned drykid. You never know, you may have a bright idea which leads to a new discovery.
Thanks :) It's good to see so many familiar names. But really as far as me helping, I don't have the skills at tracing people that you and the others have. My only contribution to the old thread was to throw in the occasional bit of info here and there that I'd picked up from googling.
Talking of which, I did find this today, in case anyone has £3.4 million to spare and wants to become a latter-day Nat:
http://www.allsop.co.uk/i/149/115/2163/london-12-13-richmond-buildings-soho
OK it's not no. 9 itself, but I still think that the buildings next door are of a similar age. The brochure on that page is worth looking at as well, as there's some nice photos of the building inside and out (well, better than my attempts at photographing the same thing, anyway.)
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Thanks for doing this Ruskie ...how fun!
Nice to see everyone :D
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Not sure ...but could this be Matthew Wards death:
Matthew Ward
Mar q 1851
STRAND, London
vol 1 p 358
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Drykid, I believe the buildings for sale are rebuilds, but in the original style. There are some buildings on the corner of Dean St which look pretty grotty and I believe may be original, but don't quote me on either of those opinions.
Deb, as usual I am unsure of districts, but maybe Matthew was no longer living at Richmond Buildings when he died? It could be him. I will think about buying this certificate too.
Something I thought that might be worth considering (and which I have really little or no knowledge about) is wills. I wonder if any of the family made a will? Mary? Granny Shepherd? This Matthew Ward who died in the Strand district? :-\
Does anyone know how and where to check for wills?
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Hi Ruskie
I only gave that death registration as in 1841 St Anne Soho fell under Strand, Middlesex! I am completely useless when it comes to the difference between Middlesex and London! :-X :-\ 8) ::)
I did a google maps thingie and Dean Street/St Anne Soho seemed to be only 1.8miles from Strand, London.
I will look around for Wills and Probates.
Where is Mary in 1841? ...I know that sometimes if you were a patient in those days you may have been enumerated with just your initials ... I checked ... Nothing. Grrrrr
deb
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Drykid, I believe the buildings for sale are rebuilds, but in the original style. There are some buildings on the corner of Dean St which look pretty grotty and I believe may be original, but don't quote me on either of those opinions.
No, I read elsewhere that the south side of the street was rebuilt, so that backs up what you're saying. But still from photos the style looks very similar.
Actually there are a lot better archive photos of the old Richmond Buildings around now than there seemed to be last time; I do remember one black and white photo, but it was a bit tiny. But you can see several from this link, all of which you can zoom into to get good detail:
http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/collage/app?service=external/SearchResults&sp=Zrichmond+buildings
tbh I can't get over how these photos look more like they were taken in 1870 than 1970. Particularly the photo of no. 6 with the hand cart standing outside. It's just annoying that they only show the north side of the street.
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Thank you for the link to the photos drykid. I don't remember seeing them before.
That 70's monstrosity on the corner of Richmond Buildings and Dean St I'm sure must have replaced some of the older buildings. (today it has been replaced by another monstrosity :-\) I suppose it is also possible that some of the buildings were bomb damaged so had to be replaced/rebuilt. The photo bottom left showing a shop on the corner of Dean St and Richmond Buildings (same photo is on page 2 with a number of '80') still survives today - it can been seen on Google maps - unfortunately google maps won't let you go down Richmond Buildings.
I am unsure if the building for sale in Richmond Buildings is a new build or the original buildings very 'done up'. I would also be interested in finding out how the buildings were numbered in Nat's day, to see if they tally with any of the numberings in the photos. I think we covered this in the past, but unsure what conclusion we came to.
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If you really want to order the Death Certificate - and as you have the exact address from the burial - order it online at www.gro.gov.uk and say NO to the question about whether you have the exact reference. Then give the date of burial and address.
Although they say that they don't do reference checking any longer, this is a work around and they will look for the correct entry for you.
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Doesn't it cost more if you don't have the exact reference? I'm probably wrong as I haven't bought certificates for about 5 years now.
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8)
Doesn't it cost more if you don't have the exact reference?
No, MaryA's method works well - it just takes a bit longer.
I went through hundreds of combinations when looking for my Grandmother's siblings who died soon after birth and I didn't know their first names. They had the very common surname of Brown, born in a Middlesex registration district ::). I just kept applying with different names previously used by the family until I found them. ;D
Liz
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8) Doesn't it cost more if you don't have the exact reference?
No, MaryA's method works well - it just takes a bit longer.
Liz
That's a good tip to know, thanks MaryA & gataki.
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I have only ordered one or two cerificates since the price rise and general changes. I know in the past even if you ordered a certificate for John Clark and you knew his name was John Clarke but the GRO had him listed as John Clarke, if you wrote his name as John Clarke in the order, they would not issue the cerificate as it was indexed as John Clarke. :P
Anyway, I can try ordering the certifcates using last known address. It should work for Mary as she was buried as "Mary Ward" of "Richmond BUildings". :) I am not sure if this works if she died elsewhere though her usual address was Richmond BUildings ....
And yes, it used to cost more if you did not supply the reference numbers.
Definitely worth a try though ... :)
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Doesn't it cost more if you don't have the exact reference? I'm probably wrong as I haven't bought certificates for about 5 years now.
You already have this answer but perhaps to give a little more information. You used to have half of your money refunded if they couldn't find the correct certificate. Now they refund the whole of it if it is incorrect but you have to do it this way around since they removed the reference checking facility.
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Doesn't it cost more if you don't have the exact reference? I'm probably wrong as I haven't bought certificates for about 5 years now.
You already have this answer but perhaps to give a little more information. You used to have half of your money refunded if they couldn't find the correct certificate. Now they refund the whole of it if it is incorrect but you have to do it this way around since they removed the reference checking facility.
Thanks for the clarification. :)
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Doesn't it cost more if you don't have the exact reference? I'm probably wrong as I haven't bought certificates for about 5 years now.
You already have this answer but perhaps to give a little more information. You used to have half of your money refunded if they couldn't find the correct certificate. Now they refund the whole of it if it is incorrect but you have to do it this way around since they removed the reference checking facility.
That actually seems like a better way of doing it than the old way. How refreshing to see a change in bureaucracy that's made an improvement! Thanks for explaining.
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Righto .... the death certificate of Mary Ward has been ordered. :) (despatch date is 3 Dec, so we have a bit of a wait)
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Not sure ...but could this be Matthew Wards death:
Matthew Ward
Mar q 1851
STRAND, London
vol 1 p 358
I'm afraid I just have to know, so I am ordering this one too. ;)
Despatch date for this one is 16th Nov. :)
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Oooh, can't wait! Thanks for getting them, Ruskie.
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Thanks Ruskie .... How long do they take to get to you after despatch?
Keeping fingers crossed that they are the right ones!
deb
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Thanks Ruskie .... How long do they take to get to you after despatch?
Keeping fingers crossed that they are the right ones!
deb
Not long Deb. Anything from 4 to 7 days. ;D
The one for Mary will take longer to dispatch as I did not supply the reference details as suggested by MaryA. I am surprised that the cost is the same even though they will have quite a number of Mary Ward deaths to look through to find the one who lived in Richmond Buidings. I'm also surprised that there was nowhere that I could add the burial details that we have, which may have saved them a bit of time. :-\
I had a look at the GRO Matthew Ward deaths and there aren't too many of them over many years. I looked more carefully at the registration districts and I think that the Strand one you found looks the most likely. Lets just hope he was still in Richmond Buildings when he died otherwise we will have to go back to the drawing board. :)
:)
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Hello everyone. ;D
I failed miserably at trying to post the image here so I am posting the facts from the death certificate I received today:
Registration District: Strand
1851 death in the sub-district of St Anne Westminster
died 27th March 1851 at 9 Richmond Buildings ;D
Matthew Ward
male
age 66
occupation: Tailor
cause of death: Chronic Bronchitis
Informant Ann Gullan(?) present at death 9 Richmond Buildings Soho
;D
(thanks Deb :-*)
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Who is Ann Gullan? :-\ I can't see an Ann* Gul*an in 1851 in Middlesex.
(I was hoping to find her still at Richmond Buildings ... Matthew's 'fancy woman' perhaps? ;))
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Ruskie, Ruskie, Ruskie ....you darling!!!!
Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have him ... poor Matthew, Bronchitis can be awful especially without meds. :'(
Ann G* ... I wonder who she was? A day nurse? Or is there an Ann in the diary who married a Mr. Gullan.
I hate to be happy about a death ...but this is a 'good' find.
deb
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Is there any Gullan? person in Richmond buildings in 1851? Can you try to post the informant bit, Ruskie?
deb
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Hi Deb. I will see if I can post it. I did think it might be Ann Gultan, but the t is not crossed and not the same as other t's on the page.
There is an Ann in the diary. ANN FOX!!!! ;D
I'll have another fiddle with the image to see if I can manage to get it on here.
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I just seem to be going round in circles and not getting anywhere with posting this image. I can't even find the instructions on how to post an image (which I have used successfully in the past). >:(
I will keep trying ....
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try this
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YYYYEEEESSSS!!!!!!! ;D I did it!!!
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You clever girl! Well it seems to be Gullan, but obviously everything is written by the same Registrar, shame death certs aren't like marriage ones where the bride and groom sign - if they can.
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As the discoverer of Mrs Skirricker's real name, I think we need avm's help to find out who on earth Ann Gullan is. :)
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Hi
I've found Ann Gullan ...after much searching for Anns and Gul* I decided to find Uncle John and Nat in 1851 again ...they were at 9 Richmond buildings.... ;D
In the next 'room' ...
Edward Gulsan? 65 engraver b Scotland
ANN GULSAN?, wife 65 b York
deb
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They are transcribed as GEEHAN ::) ...we would never have found them with that!!!!
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As the discoverer of Mrs Skirricker's real name, I think we need avm's help to find out who on earth Ann Gullan is.
LOL. Thanks for the namecheck. Have just found my way back to the thread after being reminded of Matthew Ward & co's existence when looking recently at Land Tax records naming my 5x great grandfather George Pierce (a jeweller, died 1839), also of 9 Richmond Buildings. Matthew Ward and George Pierce were both listed (often adjacently) as occupants of 9 Richmond Buildings which was Crown Land assessed over the years for land tax; e.g. in 1825 each man's tenement was assessed for £3 6s 8d.
Anyway - Deb has done the honours on Ann G. Good stuff :)
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Brilliant work, Deb! I do believe that Rootschatters can find anything. That's a really good find with the death certificate, Ruskie, it was worth getting I think.
avm, I'm a bit ignorant about how land tax works...does that mean that they owned their rooms? Or did they pay tax for rented rooms? Great find however it works.
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:) ... thanks
Hi avm ...nice to see you again!
Hi Aniseed ...ditto :)
I see Edward and Ann Gullan in 1841 at Windmill Street, St Pancras. Name spelled properly this time!
There were a lot of people at 9 Richmond Buildings in 1851.
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avm, I'm a bit ignorant about how land tax works...does that mean that they owned their rooms? Or did they pay tax for rented rooms? Great find however it works.
I have to admit I don't know either. The whole of Richmond Buildings is listed as Crown Land so they were clearly tenants but whether that meant the Crown paid the tax or the tenant did I have no idea ???
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Hummm ...Edward GullaM, of Richmond Buildings was buried Dec 18, 1851 (St George Bloomsbury) ...must have been a sad time at no. 9 that year. :(
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Doesn't it seem strange that Ann G would be the informant when Uncle John and Nat were living at No. 9? Maybe they were both at work at the time Matthew died.
I wonder if they were all living in the same 'room' ... imagine Nat with his Uncle and Step father all under the same roof!
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Doesn't it seem strange that Ann G would be the informant when Uncle John and Nat were living at No. 9? Maybe they were both at work at the time Matthew died.
Or maybe tending to the dying was "women's work"? (Whilst the men went down to the pub...)
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ahhhh That would explain it! ::)
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some info on land tax; looks like tenants were listed, though I suspect the owner was responsible for payment and clawed the tax back in the rent.
Land Tax Records (1692-1963)
Land Tax was introduced in 1692 and lasted until 1963
This tax was administered at local level and based on a tax quota for each parish which did not vary
Land tax assessments annually list property owners and their tenants
Most of the surviving land tax assessment records in Record Offices relate to the period 1780 to 1832
Land tax assessment records for the whole of England and Wales (apart from Flintshire) for the year 1798 can be viewed at the National Archives at Kew
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The Land Tax records are very interesting ... I have been going through them as Dean Street seems to be on the same pages as Richmond Buildings ... No siting of the Shepards yet. Where is Mary (Shepard) Bryceson in 1841? ... the census was taken 20 days before she married Matthew ...she has to be somewhere. :-\
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Thanks very much for that, alpinecottage, that's very interesting. I'd never heard of it before. Are there any land tax records online? What a wealth of information.
Presumably Mary Shepard can't be too far away if she's met Matthew. Unless she'd gone to visit country relatives before her wedding (although I don't think people had much free time for holidays in those days).
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Thanks very much for that, alpinecottage, that's very interesting. I'd never heard of it before. Are there any land tax records online? What a wealth of information.
Apparently Ancestry and Findmypast and possibly familysearch (to name just a few) have some records online, but only for specific years and/or places. Looks like there is much potential for more records to be included in the paying sites' record sets. I also read that most of the tenants named are male, though I don't know about widows, single women etc. Perhaps women don't usually feature because they didn't usually live alone :-\
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Thanks for the info, alpinecottage, I'll have to have a look on ancestry. I suppose in those days everything a woman owned belonged to her husband when she married, so technically she couldn't be held liable for tax if she didn't own anything. It would be interesting to see if any single women or widows were listed.
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What a lot of replies since my last post! :)
Deb, you are brilliant. I love your logic and how you went about hunting down Ann Gullan. Fabulous work!!!
Yes, Mary Shepard has still not been found on the 1841 census. When she married she was 'of Dean Street', and I think someone checked the whole of Dean Street in 1841 but couldn't find her. It's possible that she wasn't at Dean Street on census night, but where on earth was she? Horribly mistranscribed? Dittoed under someone else's surname? Did she call herself Mary Shepard or Mary Bryceson or Mary White? She was Mary Bryceson, widow when she married Matthew Ward. :-\
avm - I'm glad you've joined us. ;D Interesting stuff about the Land Tax Records. There are so many things that most of us don't think of checking.
I'll have to dig it out, but at some stage I think I made a list of all the residents of Richmond Buildings (can't recall which census it was though) - there were loads of people living there, and many of them had 'foreign' names.
Back to Matthew Ward ... I wonder if he was buried with Mary? Graves? Headstones? As we are talking London here, unfortunately I don't think we have a chance of locating them.
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I've just been all the way down Dean St (District 9) in 1841 looking for Mary Bryceson, or someone of about the right age who could possibly be her, but I've had no luck. :'( She's obviously not at home. (or perhaps she fibbed about being from Dean St and was already living with Matthew Ward .... maybe Matthew didn't record her name for fear of being seen as 'living in sin'? :-\)
:'(
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Hi Ruskie
I searched for her again yesterday ...using just Mar* ...no luck! She's nowhere to be found. As you say, maybe she was just left off the census ...accidently on purpose :)
I also looked for Matthew Ward's burial ... nothing!
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Humm the rest of her family was in Stephen Street in 1841 ...we think we have Nathaniel as Vagg ... She has to be lurking somewhere ;D
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Even with really broad searches - I've tried everything I can think of - I still can't see her. I even tried just Bry*n, no first name, no place of birth ... still no Mary. :-\
Maybe someone with FindMyPast would be kind enough to see if they can spot her.
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I have also been thinking about Ann Fox. We have her in 1851 but not in 1861. There are several deaths for Ann Foxes between 1851 and 1861. I had a look on Freebmd yesterday but couldn't narrow down one who may be our Ann. If there is one that stands out as being likely, I would consider buying the d/c.
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I'm very disappointed. I just received this email:
Thank you for your order as detailed below.
Death Certificate: MARY WARD died 01-JAN-1847 in RICHMOND BUILDINGS
We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.
We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1846-1848). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided.
A full refund of £9.25 has been credited to your account via Worldpay.
If you have any questions concerning this order please email us using our online complaints form found at www.ips.gov.uk/certcomplaints or phone +44 0300 123 1837. Lines are open Monday to Friday 8am to 8pm and Saturday 9am to 4pm.
We have Mary's burial:
29 Oct 1847
Burial - St Anne, Soho
Mary Ward, Richmond Buildings, age 50
Where is her death registered?
Where should we go next? I am wondering if she was in an infirmary or other institution maybe she wasn't registered as living at Richmond Buildings? Maybe this is the stopping point? Should I try again perhaps specifying that she should be the wife of Matthew Ward? Or if she died in the workhouse would her husband's name even have been written on the d/c?
Should I elaborate and explain what I am looking for via their 'complaints' form? (even though I would not be complaining, just asking a couple of questions) When filling out the request on the online form, there is no opportunity to add additional information, and I had to put 1 Jan 1847 as her date of death due to not knowing the exact date of death, although we do know burial date .... :P
Has anyone else been in this situation before and can point me in the right direction on where to go next?
Any suggestions and advice very gratefully received .... :(
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Hmm, I was about to query your date of death because it's not even in the correct quarter - I think that could be the stumbling block. mary would have died just a few days before being buried, so perhaps a letter to the GRO saying the death took place between 22 and 28 Oct may be better. You could also put in she was the wife of Matthew Ward and their usual address was Richmond Buildings, but that you can't be sure all that info is on the death cert.
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Just read your post properly ::) and they reckoned they searched 1846-1848. Perhaps her age does not match what's on the death cert :-\ .I still wonder if a letter would be the best approach :-\
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This is not good news! :-\
I've just come home so will have a search around!
Looked for a death for Ann Fox yesterday ... Just not sure which one she may be.
Are we positive she was born 1801 as on one of the censuses she was born circa 1811.... Not sure what Nat said on her birthday....
deb
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Hi guys
What about this one ...remember Matthew Ward was reg. in Strand, Westminster.
Mary Ward
Dec q 1847
St James Westminster
London
1 113
Her mother, Granny Shepard lived in Richmond buildings but died in the infirmary, her death was reg. in St Pancras ....
so another possible...
Mary Ward
Dec 1847
Pancras London
1 328
hummmm
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Nat mentions the date:
Ann Fox born 9 Oct 1801
But no guarantee that the informant knew this. :-\
Thanks for the suggestions for Mary Ward's death Deb. I will have another try for her d/c. Although disappointing, at least now the payment is refunded if the event is not found. :)
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I need to slow down :-\
Okay ...This is Granny Shepard's burial ...I said her death was reg. St Pancras ... sorry
This is what we have:
20th Nov 1851
Parish of St Pancras
Mary Shepard buried, age 80, abode: Infirmary
1852
Nathaniel moved from Richmond Buildings to Islington
Is St Pancras the same as Pancras ?
Can we find Granny Shepard's death reg...?
deb :-[
red post ...Hi Ruskie
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Okay 8)
Granny Shepard was in Strand Union Workhouse, Tottenham Court in 1851
thats in the PANCRAS reg district.
I wonder if thats were Mary Ward ended up? If so then this one would fit:
Mary Ward
Dec 1847
Pancras London
1 328
But is the St James Westminster one a fit too, although Matthew's death was reg in ST ANNE'S Westminster ...are they close to each other?
I can't see one in Strand.
deb
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Deb I was just about to order the Westminster one when I saw your post. I just checked and this is what they say about the registration district:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/st%20james%20westminster.html
Confusing, but I suppose her death still could have been registered in St James. It only takes her to have been staying with a friend or relative or in the workhouse as we suspect, for her death to be registered elsewhere.
Do you think it might be better if I specify that she is the wife of Matthew Ward rather than her address being Richmond Buildings? For all we know she may not have been living at home for months before her death .... :-\
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Are you allowed to tell them she was the wife of Matt and lived at Richmond buildings?
having said that, if they have done a search with the requirement being Richmond Buildings and can't find anything than I would rather specify that she was the wife of Matthew ward!
will look at your link
deb
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Hummm ...now I'm not sure about the St James reg dist. ..includes : Sub-districts : Berwick, Golden Square, St. Jamess Square.
Whereas Strand included St Anne Soho ...which is Richmond buildings ...
arrggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
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I might leave it a day or two to get the opinions of a couple of other people about which I should order next.
I notice that the St James registers are held at Westminster Archives. :) I know that Mongibello is a regular visitor to the archives, so I might ask him if he can find the St James death. :)
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Sorry Deb, forgot to answer your question:
I can't recall how much information I was able to add to help identify the correct person on the GRO form. I don't think there was much room, as I wanted to specify Mary's date and place of burial and there was nowhere I could do so.
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I agree, Ruskie!
Maybe we should post all the Mary Ward's death reg. for Dec q 1847 in London and Middlesex so that we can discuss the possibilities. At least when Nat fan's come on/wake up ( ;D ) the info is available and no one is replicating searches.
deb
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I supppose we have to consider the idea that her death was never registered - not all early GRO BM&Ds were.
Carole
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I supppose we have to consider the idea that her death was never registered - not all early GRO BM&Ds were.
Carole
Oh I hope this isn't the case with Mary ..... :(
I will email Mongibello to see if he will be willing to search for Mary at the Westminster Archives.
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:-\ I hadn't thought of that Carole.
I am hoping she's there somewhere :)
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But ...surely by 1847 you had to register? I would understand a 1837 not being done ....
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I have sent an email to Mongibello to see if he can help us by finding the St James Westminster death of Mary Ward. :)
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That's great, Ruskie :)
I still think we should post the death registrations for Dec q and hopefully eliminate some of them .... doing dishes here LOL ... will try to do it soonish.
deb
PS ...say hi to Mongibello from us
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Deb, i just typed up a huge new post for the Middx board to ask which would be the most likely death registration for Mary Ward. But while I was doing so, I thought that there is not really any point at the moment.
Firstly I will wait to see if Mongibello can find her death at Westminster Archives. If not, I will simply re order a d/c for Dec 1/4 1847 for a Mary Ward with husband Matthew. If that doesn't bear fruit, I will have a rethink. ;)
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Out of interest, because I can't remember!- did we ever try to trace Nathaniel's real father - Nathaniel White? I just looked up his baptismal entry at St Marylebone - Nathaniel Son of Mary Bryson and Nathaniel White baptised 4 Julu 1826 born 5 June 1926 WH (for workhouse) pauper - although I don't know if the pauper refers to Mary or Nathaniel.
Carole
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Hi Carole
We did search for Nathaniel White.... Ruskie followed a NW through the censuses, I think he was chair maker.
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There's a Nathaniel White aged about 50 chairmaker living in Gt Quebec St Marylebone in 1841 - I wonder if he was the father? I know we probably won't know the answer but I wonder why Mary didn't marry Nathaniel White? Was he already married? She thought enough of him to name her son after him. It's a shame the records of the workhouse don't go back to pre-1855. I can see a Nathaniel White died in the workhouse aged 77 om 4 December 1846, but it seems hard to imagine he could have lived there for 20+ years.
Carole
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Hi Carole,
My 3rd gt grandfather John Turner went to the workhouse with his daughter and grandson in 1854-1860 aged about 60. He died there in 1882 having been there continuously (I assume) for a total of about 26 years. I guess once in it was difficult top get out, especially if you're comparatively old to begin with.
Paul
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Hi Carole,
Deb is right - we did look for Nathaniel White. Not a particularly common name I don't think.
The chairmaker:
1841 census
Quebec St, Marylebone
Nathaniel White 50 chairmaker N
(I have this Nathaniel White through the censuses and his death in 1862. Unsure if he is the correct Nathaniel. He was born in Watford Hertfordshire.)
I think we focused on this one because when Nat married he sid that his father was Nathaniel Bryceson, cabinet maker, and chairmaker seems to be a related occupation. I think we presumed that Nat must have been told his father's first name and occupation but did not know that his surname was White.
One of the great mysteries has been how Mary got involved with a pauper from the workhouse. But there could very easily be an explanation for this such as he was ill and unable to work at various times throughout his life. Perhaps he was in and out of the workhouse? I think this happened quite a lot with inmates of the workhouse.
Carole, I am very curious about the Nathaniel White death you found in 1846. I will have to have another look but I did find a Nathaniel White death in 1862 (see above). Of course I could have got that wrong and have mixed up my Nathaniel Whites. I do remember finding Quebec St which seemed to be a very well to do area, but perhaps Nathaniel White lived in the stables or out the back somewhere. ;)
Also, some good news - I heard from Mongibello and he will look for Mary Ward's death on his next visit to the Archives on Tuesday. ;D Fingers crossed.
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Sorry I've made a mistake and got my notes confused! Nathaniel White died in the St Marylebone workhouse on 4 December 1862aged 77 - which would give him even longer in and out of the workhouse - if it is the same man.
The other Nathaniel White I was looking at was Nathaniel Charles White who married a Sarah Gelding (looks more like Golding to me) 28 April 1824 St George Hanover Square Westminster and then as a widower remarried Elizabeth Marlow Brown 1 September 1846 St Andrew Holborn.
I've just been trying to look for any clues - even in the time since we "did" Nathaniel before, so many more records have appeared online. FindMyPast's newspapers for a start, although I couldn't find any likely Nathaniel Whites there.
Carole
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Yes, it really is worthwhile going over some of this research again. With a bit of luck we might find some additonal snippets.
Well if the Nathaniel White chairmaker is the same Nathaniel White who died in the workhouse in 1862, perhaps he might be the right chap and our Nat's real father? ;) Chronologically he would fit, and age wise he is about 10 years older than Mary, so a logical 'pairing'.
I wonder if there is any way we can find out more about him. Workhouse records? :-\
He might even have been married which might explain why he and Mary didn't marry. So Nathaniel Charles White would also be worth considering.
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The other Nathaniel White I was looking at was Nathaniel Charles White who married a Sarah Gelding (looks more like Golding to me) 28 April 1824 St George Hanover Square Westminster and then as a widower remarried Elizabeth Marlow Brown 1 September 1846 St Andrew Holborn.
Any clues in his occupation?
It would be great to find some kind of connection between one of the Nathaniel Whites and our Nat's family .... which would explain how Mary knew him.
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In case they are of any use.
LAW SITTINGS.THIS DAY .
The Morning Post (London, England), Tuesday, March 10, 1835; pg. 7; Issue 20048. 19th Century British Library Newspapers: Part II
Insolvent Debtors Court, Portugal Street
.... Nathaniel White ....
also mentioned in The Morning Post (London, England), Tuesday, December 27, 1836; Issue 20608. 19th Century British Library Newspapers: Part II as Nathaniel Nicholls White.
This one might well be the Nathaniel White who married the Elizabeth
LICENSED VICTUALLERS' MEMS .
The Era (London, England), Sunday, February 9, 1851; Issue 646.
White Lion, Lower Brook Street, to Elizabeth White, widow and executrix of Nathaniel White, the late Occupier.
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Just browsing here:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Strand/
and discovered this:
Records
City of Westminster Archives Centre, 10 St Ann's Street, London SW1P 2DE. ◦St Anne, Soho holdings include: Board of guardians overseers' minutes (1849-1900), Overseers' accounts (1719-1860), Settlement papers and removal orders (1736-1835, indexed), Indemnification bonds (1686-1742), Petition for poor relief (1822), Miscellaneous letters and orders (1782-1822), Workhouse admissions list (1781-2), Workhouse work books (1785-1838), Workhouse administrative records and accounts (1781-1836), Apprenticeship register and indentures (1686-1834), Bastardy registers (1790-1825), Records of poor children and nursery (1789-1793,1818-1838).
◦St Clement Danes holdings include: Overseers' and churchwardens' minutes (1779-1850, 1878-1900), Overseers' accounts (1604-1900), Settlement examination books (1703-07, 1739-1836, indexed 1739-1836), Settlement registers (1699-1707, c1715-1750), Settlement and removal legal papers (1806-1836), Settlement certificates (1701-71), Petitions for poor relief (1809-1836), Lists of workhouse inmates incl. admission and discharge details (1785, 1834), Workhouse clothing books (1785-1796), Workhouse administrative records/accounts (1788-1834), Bastardy examination books (1786-1798, 1809-1818 indexed), Bastardy bonds (1641, 1705), Records of poor children and nurses (1719-1727,1767-1822), Nursery accounts (1832-1836).
Some of the above records cover some of the time we think that Nathaniel White, chairmaker was in the workhouse. Can anyone see any records above which may be worth looking further into?
Some interesting finds Mary A, but I think I have found Nathaniel Nichols White in the 1851 census in Tottenham. I can't quite read his occupation - looks like a 'Process something'. He is born around 1811. Our Nat was born in 1826 .... so, not too likely to have Nathaniel Nichols White as his father :-\ Chairmaker Nathaniel was born about 1785. He is mistranscribed "Wall" White in the 1851 on Ancestry, still living in Marylebone and still a chairmaker.
I don't think Nathaniel Charles White is our man either. He is still around on the 1871 census in Hanwell and his occupation is 'House Property' (whatever that is).
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The latest from Mongibello:
Unfortunately he was unable to locate Mary Ward's death certificate at Westminster Archives. However he has gone ahead and ordered it from the GRO. :) I am looking forward to it's arrival, and will obviously keep you all posted.
Are there any more certifcates we need to purchase? ;)
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Hi Ruskie :D
Please thank Mongibello from us! Which cert is he ordering, the Westminster or St Pancras one?
I wonder if Nathaniel White's death cert may reveal anything? Do you think Nat would have known the truth by 1862?
I am still wondering if our Ann isn't the Bible lady in Essex in 1861 ...she states married ...but who's to know what the truth is regarding her status.. I did search for her the other day ...yet again, nothing! I even looked at Ann's being christened in October 1801 ...no surname ...just hoping that one would have a birth date of 9 Oct ::) :-\
I also started rereading the diary :D
deb
BTW ...Thanks Ruskie
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Coincidental that you mentioned the Nathaniel White who died in 1862. I have just been looking at that GRO death and wondering whether or not I should fork out for the certificate.
After revisiting all the Nathaniel Whites, I reckon this chairmaker is the most likely candiate for Nat's real father. Not that the d/c will give us any clues of course. Or maybe it will .... ;) [I am wishfully thinking ... perhaps ... "informant: Nathaniel Bryceson, son" ;D]
Ann? Bible lady? Um ... still not sure, but you might be able to talk me around. ;) There are several possible Ann Fox deaths between 1851 and 1861 .... :-\
PS. I will thank Mongibello from all of us. :)
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I have heard from Mongibello, and it's not good news .... He wrote:
Sadly, the Mary Ward who died in the December quarter of 1847 in St James and was registered with the index 1-113 was not Nathaniel's mother. This one died in the Poland Street workhouse on 8 December; weeks after "our" Mary was buried.
He is going to have another look at the burial register for further clues.
I am going to try again with the GRO for a death of Mary Ward with husband Matthew Ward. :-\
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I have placed another order with the GRO for a d/c for Mary. Despatch date 8 Jan.
Last known address was a compulsory field, so I just wrote "Middlesex". For "occupation", I wrote "wife of Matthew Ward", which is the only place on the form I could add this information.
I hope they can find her with these details ... :-\
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Ahhh Ruskie ...That's too bad! Please thank Mongibello!
went back on the thread and what about this one:
Her mother, Granny Shepard lived in Richmond buildings but died in the infirmary, her death was reg. in St Pancras ....
so another possible...
Mary Ward
Dec 1847
Pancras London
1 328
deb
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Yes, Deb - that is a possibility - I am hoping that my vagueness on the GRO order will pick up that one? :-\ I suppose the trouble with the broad search is that you don't really know what they have checked and dismissed .... and why.
It might just be me, but I do wonder how thorough the GRO staff searches are. :-\ Human error and all that ...
Now I am worrying that Matthew may not have been named as her husband on the certifciate, and I might end up getting my money refunded again. I would have liked to have been able to tell them our Mary's date of burial, which would probably have helped in the search, but there was nowhere I could do that ....
We will see in a few weeks.
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We can only hope that Matthew was the informant to her death ...unless she did die in the infirmary! She was very ill ... If your latest cert does not pan out ...I'll order the St Pancras one.
Other than that ...we may have to list all Mary Ward deaths in Dec q 1847 and maybe go through a proces of elimination.
Fingers crossed !!!!
deb
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I am hoping that under the heading "Occupation" it may say "wife of Matthew Ward". As she was married, I believe this is what generally happened. :-\ [http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/deaths.htm]
Of course this would depend on whether or not the informant knew she was the wife of Matthew Ward. :-\
If she died at the infirmary or elsewhere the informant would not be Matthew I suppose, unless he happened to be present.
I suppose it is possible that now the GRO will not issue the certificate if the occupation column is blank? We could miss out of the correct certificate! Panic!
We'll just have to wait and see, and keep our fingers crossed.
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Of course this would depend on whether or not the informant knew she was the wife of Matthew Ward. :-\
If she died at the infirmary or elsewhere the informant would not be Matthew I suppose, unless he happened to be present.
I suppose it is possible that now the GRO will not issue the certificate if the occupation column is blank? We could miss out of the correct certificate! Panic!
eeekkkkk.... Angst and panic!
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The GRO will only refuse to send a certificate if any given details conflict with what is recorded. If she is not recorded as wife of Matthew you should still receive it, but if it states eg. wife or widow of James then it would fail.
It is a dilemma, the more information you give then the more likely it is that the required certificate is refused, and the least information could lead to obtaining many certificates.
Happy Hunting,
Colin
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Thanks for clarifying that Colin. In that case, I suppose it could happen that there may be more than one possible death which fits my criteria? I wonder what would happen then?
I really think the GRO should give us a chance to add additional details which may save them a lot of work. For example, they will search for all deaths registered for all Mary Wards in Middlesex in 1846, 1847 and 1848. If there had been the option, I could easily have saved them a huge amount of wasted time by telling them that Mary was buried on the 29th of October 1847. That would help. ;)
Oh well, there may be a reason that I haven't considered as to why they don't do this.
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Hi Ruskie,
As I've never ordered a certificate from the GRO, I'm not the best person to ask about how or why they do things their way. I always use the local Register Offices where you can actually talk to people to discuss any problems. Perhaps this would be the best way forward for Mary Ward's certificate.
I had a quick look on FreeBMD at those registered in the last quarter of 1847 and saw 4 entries that could fit, but there could be others as I'm not too familiar with the area covered. Two cert's are now held by Westminster and the other two held by Camden. Following through the FreeBMD entries by clicking on the District Name, brings up a page giving a brief description of the area it covers and a link to further information. Part of the information is where certificates are now held and clicking on that will bring up the contact details such as postal address, telephone number, email address and possibly a website.
Hope this helps.
Colin
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Thanks Colin - yes, I did know about how to see the areas covered by the various districts. Mongibello has checked the death registrations held by Westminster Archives and couldn't find our Mary. (I think he is going to have another look).
Of course the difficulty is that we are not sure where Mary died. We know her home address and burial place, but she may have died elsewhere. I was not issued a certificate when I specified that the address should be Richmond Buildings, so this time if they can't find a Mary with husband Matthew Ward, I will have to broaden the search even more.
Her death may have slipped through the cracks somehow ....
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I'm a bit confused as to what Mongibello is checking. :-\
Death certificates are held and preserved by Superintendent Registrars, and copies are sent to the Registrar General (GRO) for their quarterly returns. Neither sets of certificates are available to view by the general public, so I suspect that he is checking the local Index of their registrations, and probably paying for each session >:(
Local Registrars are more flexible than the GRO in finding certificates (my own personal opinion, so don't quote me ;D ) a couple of emails to probable register offices might be the way to go.
Colin
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Mongibello will check the burial register to see if he can find any clues presumably regarding date and place of death. :)
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HI,
Burial - Mary Ward - 1847 - age 50yrs - Richmond Buildings
Est death abt 1847
Burial date 29 Oct 1847
Parish/Poor law Soho St. Anne
Borough Westminster
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HI,
Burial - Mary Ward - 1847 - age 50yrs - Richmond Buildings
Est death abt 1847
Burial date 29 Oct 1847
Parish/Poor law Soho St. Anne
Borough Westminster
Thank you Julie, but we already have this information. It is the death registration we are looking for so we can order the death certificate (to find the official cause of death plus any other little snippets). :)
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Bad news everyone. No Mary Ward death certificate has been found. I just received this from the GRO:
Thank you for your order as detailed below.
Death Certificate: MARY WARD died 01-JAN-1847 in MIDDLESEX
We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.
We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1846-1848). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided.
Where do can we go from here? :(
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Do you think this is because the date of death is specified as 1 Jan? I know you can't give a burial date, but could you have given the date as Oct 1847, leaving the actual day unspecified?
It's so frustrating not knowing what they disregarded and why, isn't iy?
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Do you think this is because the date of death is specified as 1 Jan? I know you can't give a burial date, but could you have given the date as Oct 1847, leaving the actual day unspecified?
It's so frustrating not knowing what they disregarded and why, isn't iy?
They do say that if you do not know the date of death (which we don't - we only know date of burial which is only presumably a day or two later), then leave the date as 1 Jan. They search a year earlier and later anyway, so that should have picked up all the other deaths. It is a shame that there is nowhere on the form to specify what we DO know about Mary. :-\
I expect that she was simply not named as wife of Matthew Ward ....
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They also say this on their website;
"If you are not aware of the required information and therefore cannot complete the required criteria you can telephone the Certificate Services Call Centre on +44 (0)300 123 1837 to place your order or write to Certificate Services at PO Box 2, Southport, Merseyside, PR8 2JD."
Is it not worth writing, (or even better, persuading one of your contacts in Westminster Archives to phone), giving a couple of sentences of explanation about Mary and this thread and the diary, and seeing if they can come up with anything?
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Thanks alpinecottage, I was not aware of that. I will definitely drop them a line. Some hope at last. :)
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Extremely detailed explanatory email now sent to the GRO. :)
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Fingers and toes crossed! :)
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This is the email I received from the GRO:
Dear *******
Thank you for your enquiry.
If you are unsure which of the possible entries found in the indexes refer to the person you are looking for, you may wish to place a research order and we will carry out a three year search of the General Register Office Indexes for the entry you are seeking.
If the name appears frequently in the indexes you can request we search a year or specific quarter of a year and we will check up to 6 possible entries in the name quoted. You will need to make your application by phone or post however.
Additional information may be included on these orders which will help us identify an entry. You say you have a record of her being buried on 29 October 1847 which may indicate she died shortly prior to this.
We are only able to undertake searches where at the very least the year and place of the event together with the full name and surname of the person is provided.
If the search is unsuccessful we will contact you to advise no trace of an entry can be found in the details supplied and a full refund is issued .
Standard Service charge £9.25 - 15 working days
Priority Service charge £23.40 - Despatched the following working day.
For further information please refer to our website: www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
Regards
********
First Point of Contact
Not sure why this is phone or post only - that's not very convenient. :-\
I'm not sure how this search works regarding payment - I assume you would pay, they would search, then if nothing is found? Refund?
I think I'd better read the small print on their website ....
Does anyone have any experience with this kind of GRO request and search?
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This is the email I received from the GRO:
.......
If the search is unsuccessful we will contact you to advise no trace of an entry can be found in the details supplied and a full refund is issued .....
Not sure why this is phone or post only - that's not very convenient. :-\
I'm not sure how this search works regarding payment - I assume you would pay, they would search, then if nothing is found? Refund?
Yes, they are saying you'd get a refund if they were unsuccessful.
And I agree, it seems inconvenient to have the option of phone or write, why not email too? I suppose "rules is rules"!
They will check up to 6 records by this method, they say. Just going back to check how many possible Mary Ward deaths you found.
Added; there are 4 Mary Ward deaths on Freebmd for 4th Q 1847, one each in St James, St Pancras, Holborn and Marylebone and Mary Esther in Islington and Mary Ann Elizabeth in Holborn - grand total of six.
Assuming her death was registered (most likely) and assuming it made it through the quarterly returns and onto the index (more scope for errors) then she should be one of these six.
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"Our" Mary did not have a middle name so we can eliminate any which do. My only concern is that she may have died outside the (likely) area. I will recheck Freebmd for other Marys. :-\
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Those were the Middlesex Mary Wards, which includes London. Putting London excludes the St James one.
I suspect she was referred to as plain Mary Ward in everything we have on her, but how do we know for sure she didn't have a middle name? Anyway, all the other Mary Wards dying in that quarter are in Lancashire and Yorkshire ( long way from London) apart from a Mary Ward in Winchester (70 miles south west of London) and a Mary Ann Ward in St George, Southwark, Surrey ( just south of the Thames and non-Londoners like me would call it London)
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Those were the Middlesex Mary Wards, which includes London. Putting London excludes the St James one.
I suspect she was referred to as plain Mary Ward in everything we have on her, but how do we know for sure she didn't have a middle name? Anyway, all the other Mary Wards dying in that quarter are in Lancashire and Yorkshire ( long way from London) apart from a Mary Ward in Winchester and a Mary Ann Ward in St George, Southwark, Surrey (fairly close to London)
Yes, I did include both London and Middlesex in the search. I think we are as sure as we can be that Mary did not have a middle name as we have this from the Parish records:
27 June 1797
Mary Shepard born
chr 23 Jul 1797
Old Church St Pancras
father: John, mother: Mary
And from the diary confirming the date of birth:
Saturday 27th June 1846
Mother completes her 49th year ...
But, yes, there are not a huge number of Mary Ward deaths in the Dec 1/4 of 1847.
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I agree about her not having a middle name.
Was it Mary who had breast cancer? If so, she is unlikely to have travelled 70 miles to Winchester when she was so ill, so our Mary must be one of the 4....assuming the index is complete.
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Mary had some kind of tumor we think, but Nathaniel didn't exactly say where it was as far as I can remember. There was mention of her "side" at one point when she visited a doctor. I am sure that one of the others will be able to recall. :) You are right when you say that it is very unlikely that she would have travelled far as she was so ill. Added to the fact that she was buried in Soho you would expect her to have died in the vicinity.
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Reading back, I see the St James Mary was eliminated because she died after "our" Mary was buried (reply no 95) - so that's only 3 possibles now....on the index!
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Yes, thanks Alpine, that sounds about right.
My search terms, 'abode: Richmonds Buildings', for the first search, and 'wife of Matthew Ward' for the second, failed to find her, so, presumably now all that we have to search on is approximate date of death on, or a day or two before, 29th Oct 1847.
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The 29 Oct 1847 was a Friday, so I'd guess she would have died between 25th and 28th Oct, prob 26th or 27th.
Just going to check something.
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Just went to look at getting certs from the local record offices (in case Mary's cert hadn't been sent up to General Register Office).
Marylebone comes under Westminster Local Register Office, applications are by post with a cheque.
Holborn and St Pancras come under Camden, but because they have so many sub districts, a fee of £10 is payable to search for which subdistrict it is plus another fee of £10 to pay for the certificate. Again applications by post with 2 separate cheques this time.
Neither Office seems very user-friendly - applicants need to know more or less exactly where events took place to order a certificate, so it looks like a letter to the GRO with as many details as poss. is the only realistic option. :-\
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Thanks for all that research Alpine. :) A letter it will be.
I am a bit unsure about how I pay for this though if I have to apply via a letter. The link provided by the GRO just takes me to the usual online ordering page - an alternative is that I can print out the application form (but there is nowhere on it to add further information). Presumably I need to print out the form, fill in Mary's details, supply credit card details, and attach an additional letter explaining the situation. :-\
It's not too clear though ....
I think that the St Pancras death may be our Mary (as Deb suspects) - Granny Shepherd died in the infirmary in the Parish of St Pancras in 1851 so maybe Mary did too?.
Nah, I'm feeling lazy .... I am going to order the St Pancras death certificate. I reckon that is our Mary. ;D
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Well, that's better than a 30% chance of being the correct one!
In the occupation section, dare you put "middle-aged lady - not infant or child". That would eliminate a large category of wrong deaths :-\
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I've just ordered it. I left the age blank in case the infirmary or workhouse staff either put incorrect age or didn't know her age. :-\ Writing "middle aged woman" might have been a good plan (but too late now).
I just couldn't be bothered with the fuss of the other method, not to mention the waiting time. The St Pancras certificate will be dispatched on the 17th Jan, so not too long to wait. I am feeling confident.
I will obviously let everyone know the minute I receive it. :)
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:'(
Wrong Mary Ward. This one was a spinster who died from Influenza on 4th Dec, New Millman St, St Pancras ......giving up now I think .....
:'(
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I did always wonder if her death was ever registered - it was still early days with the system and I think she might just be one of those who slipped through unrecorded :(
Carole
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You are probably right Carole. The other family members seem to be registered, but it may have been different for Mary if she was away from home .... it's a bit disappointing.
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What a shame!
But I have a pet theory that many events which were registered didn't make it to the GRO and hence onto the national index. Imagine how easy it would be for a record to be overlooked at the transcription stage at the local office and then again when all the local returns were collated at GRO. Some local clerk, doing what must have been a boring job, finding himself unable to read some bad handwriting or being distracted and losing where he was up to, or turning two pages at once could easily have missed some records. A similar example is my 2xgreat grandmother (died 1850's) who was buried in Manchester with date of death, burial and cause recorded in the cemetary records, but there's apparently no death cert for her. In her case, I'm hoping that when LancsUKBMD transcribers finish the transcriptions from the local register offices' records, her death cert will appear then. I don't know whether the London area register offices are allowing the same thing, but there's always hope, if we can wait that long...... :D
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Hi folks - I have just discovered this diary through Googling the name of my great grandfather George Lea. He is too late (1840 - 1911) to be the George Lea of this diary but was certainly part of the same coal merchant family. I have a scrapbook of newspaper cuttings from a relative which are mainly about Highgate families in the 1880's and 1890's death notices, birth notices, odd little stories. It also includes an original receipt from Eccleston Wharf dated March 11 1846 so could have been written out by the man himself. I haven't examined the book in detail yet, it is in very tiny print but there is a huge amount of names in there. Would be definitely interested in hearing from anyone else with an interest in the Leas.
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Hello Jo A,
You are very welcome to join us and our discussions about Nathaniel. Unfortunately as you can see, we have come to a bit of a standstill, as we have hit a lot of brick walls. It is excellent to find another descendant of the family we have enjoyed researching and who became such a big part of our lives for over a year.
I am very interested in the information in your scrapbook. Do you have any idea who put the book together, and an approximate date?
Could you be willing and able to scan that Eccleston Wharf receipt you have so we can compare the writing to see if it was written by Nathaniel?
It would be wonderful if you could work your way through the scrapbook to see if there are mentions of Nathaniel or anyone else he mentions in his diary. I'm sure all of us who have taken an interest in Nathaniel's diary would be very grateful.
Alternatively, would it be possible (or would you be willing) to take scans of the pages, particularly those parts of it which mention names, which we could have a look at? Specifically mentions of any characters who may connect with Nathaniel's era.
Have you read Nathaniel's diary yet? I know it is a LOT of work for you (and a lot of it is chit chat), but you may wish to go over all of our previous threads discussing Nathaniel's Diary. There are links to everything at the beginning of this thread.
So we can put your great grandfather George Lea into context within the Lea family, do you know who his parents were? In case you haven't discovered yet, Nathaniel Bryceson's grandmother (affectionately known as 'Granny Shepard') was Mary Lea born on 14 June 1771 in Birmingham. Mary Lea married John Shepard in 1796. So, you are related to Nathaniel Bryceson! ;D
So, as you can guess, we are all interested in the Leas. ;) I think that there was another Lea descendant who joined us in this discussion at some stage, but I can't remember where or how they connected with the family I'm afraid.
And last but not least, welcome to rootschat! I'm sure we would all love to help you with any research into your family - Leas or other branches. :)
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Hi thanks for such a detailed and rapid response. There is a cutting about NB dated 1909. Haven't read all the threads so don't know if this is new to you.
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Hi thanks for such a detailed and rapid response. There is a cutting about NB dated 1909. Haven't read all the threads so don't know if this is new to you.
I would be very VERY interested to see this! ;D A scan (or photograph if too delicate to scan) would be absolutely wonderful if possible. ;D I think Nathaniel got a mention in a publication called "Notes and Queries" around 1909 - is this what the article refers to?
If you can find the time to read some of our threads (maybe in conjunction with the diary itself, as our comments and discussions follow the diary day by day, so it will easier for you to follow our discussions :P - if you understand what I am getting at. ;D) - you will get the idea how Nathaniel and his diary turned into quite an obsession for many of us for over a year. It was so sad when the diary ended and frustrating that we know that Nathaniel wrote other diaries, whose whereabouts are unknown (if they still exist).
We are (eventually) hoping to see the diary published, and any extra documents I'm sure will be of interest.
;D
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Hi again, the cutting is a short 'character piece' which is mainly verbatim quotes from Nathaniel about his hobby a s a collector. I think I would like to contact Westminster before posting it in case they have any projects in hand it would tie in with, though, of course as a published item it may be accessible elsewhere. I' ll take į photo of the Eccleston Wharf bill and post on Flickr.
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I would be very interested in reading the article about Nathaniel. If you prefer to offer it initially to Westminster Archives rather than posting it here, that is your decision of course, keeping in mind that they published Nathaniel's Diary back in 2010, so I don't know if the subject is "yesterday's news"or "gone off the boil", so to speak. :) If you have a look at their website they always have some interesting topics - I see there is a cookbook/recipes online at present.
They may well be interested if you wish to donate the entire scrapbook - this is something for you to discuss with them if they are interested, and I obviously can't speak for them. Let me know if you would like the details of some contacts at Westminster Archives who know a lot about The Diary.
Would you not consider posting an image of the Eccleston Wharf bill here where everyone who has been following these threads, and is interested in the subject, will be able to see it? I, for one, do not have a Flickr account and have no idea how to view Flickr images. Simple instructions on how to view would be appreciated if you decide to go the Flickr route rather than posting it here.
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Thanks - if you could point me in the direction of someone who might be interested I can take it from there. I would rather keep the cutting book in the family though.
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Thank you very much for posting the images Jo A. :) Would you be willing to transcribe the newspaper article for us?
I would rather keep the cutting book in the family though.
That is perfectly understandable and I would feel the same way, especially if you have someone in a later generation who is interested in family/social history. :)
I will send details of a contact at Westminster Archives via Personal Message.
I was looking through a couple of our old threads about the Diary (looking for the sections where we mention the Leas) - I remember they took a bit of effort to sort out - I think I recall some bankruptcy, a parting of the ways of a couple of the Leas, and one of them returning to a previous occupation. Nathaniel is also quite critical of his boss George Lea. I think George must have had a bit of a fall from grace - he is a "Lighterman" in the 1851 census and "out of business" in 1861.
I would be interested to know how you connect to this line of Leas. :) Who do you descend from? (Obviously don't give us any personal information or details of anyone still living). Do you know who put your scrapbook together?
Thanks again for posting the images.
PS. I feel quite confident in saying that the writing on the Eccleston Wharf bill, is not Nathaniels. Others may wish to see what they think.
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Hi
I will get in touch with the contact at Westminster Archives and see what their response is. I've had a chance to go through the cuttings book in more detail now. It's almost all newspaper cuttings apart from a watercolour of a house, the bill, a burial bill for C Lea, and a transcript of a marriage register. Most of the cuttings are bdm announcements, there are some wills, inquests, reports of sermons, bits of local history esp Highgate. There aren't any other references to NB or many others to any George Lea. Thomas Lea seems to feature quite a bit.
Anyway George Lea was my great-grandfather and died in 1911 at the age of 71. He married Fanny Gurney and had two daughters, Fanny Gurney Lea and Nancy in the 1880's. They married brothers, name of Johnson. Fanny Gurney Johnson had a son and a daughter born 1920 who is my mother. There's a history of late marriages so I'm not quite as ancient as all this makes me seem! I don't know who compiled the scrapbook but they seem to have had an obsessive interest in the Leas and their relations. Most cuttings seem to be between 1880 and 1900 with a sudden halt in 1920, the latest one is the birth of my mother. She is still alive but has dementia. There was a family tragedy in 1921 which could account for the sudden end of collecting cuttings.
I don't know who George Lea's father was but thinking it may have been Thomas Lea who I'm guessing was the brother of the Eccleston Wharf George Lea and was evidently much more successful in the coal trade than poor old George.
I've had another look at the NB cutting and he mentions his grandmother but not his mother, which ties in with his earlier writings. He states that his grandmother had 11 children! I'm not sure how reliable a narrator he is...
One of my mother's cousins is still alive but I spoke to his daughter today and he's been more interested in the researching the Johnson side than the Leas. The Johnsons had a gold thread manufacturing business so more exciting than coal perhaps.
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Thanks for the detailed response Jo A. It is interesting to see where you fit into the family.
Through our discussions we have worked out some details of the Lea family, and if you like, we can try to fill in any of your missing links. There is the small mater of locating the Lea information hidden amongst all the other subjects we discussed.
Are you saying that Nathaniel's grandmother 'Granny Shepard' (Mary Lea) had 11 children? We only know of two - Nat's mother Mary and her brother John. Finding the other 9 could be a new challenge for us.
Thanks once again. :)
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Yes, Nathaniel says 'my grandmother, who had 11 children..' in talking about how everyone used to get smallpox.
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I've been reading through the message boards and note that Mary Shephards brother was Charles Lea, 1776 1836. I think this is the same C Lea I have the burial bill original document for except the year reads 1838 as far as I can see. Also that Thomas Lea gives them some coal.
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Well knowing that Granny Shepard had 11 children has got me very curious now. I feel I should take some time to search for them. :)
When you mentioned C Lea, I thought it must be Charles Lea, but wasn't sure which C Lea - but yes, it is likely to be the same chap.
I'm not sure if I mentioned that a descendant of the Leas did join our discussion at one stage, in one of the later threads I think. Something else I need to 'look up' :) - you two must be related.
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Well, I hope your hunt is successful and rewarding! I will let you know when I hear back from Westminster.
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Yes, please do let me know how you get on with WA.
Re: finding 9 more children for Granny Shepard - I had a quick look yesterday, but didn't have a chance to finish the search, so have no possibilities to report as yet.
I will post here if, or when, I do find any. :)
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posted in error ...
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This sounds something like "Richard Doyle's Journal, 1840" which I have as a hard back book. It was first published in 1980 and is fascinating as it is in a written script and teems with Doyle's sketches. He kept the journal throughout 1840 when he was a 15 year old, before going on to become three years later an illustrator for Punch and eventually one of England's leading illustrator's. The journal does mention a variety of people, though I have never thought to find out who they really were.
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This sounds something like "Richard Doyle's Journal, 1840" which I have as a hard back book. It was first published in 1980 and is fascinating as it is in a written script and teems with Doyle's sketches. He kept the journal throughout 1840 when he was a 15 year old, before going on to become three years later an illustrator for Punch and eventually one of England's leading illustrator's. The journal does mention a variety of people, though I have never thought to find out who they really were.
That sounds interesting Malcolm. Since reading Nathaniel's diary I've gone on to read a few more, and have a couple that I have yet to read. I love the way that diaries give such insight into past lives land times, and I love the banality of them. The only disappointment is that unlike a novel which usually has a satisfactory ending, diaries just come to a sudden stop which I don't find satisfactory. :)
PS. I see that you can read Richard Doyle's book online. :)
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Well I hope it has all the sketches as these are what make the journal so memorable and give us such an insight into 1840 life.
Another one in the same vein is 'A Girl at Government House' - "An English girl's reminiscences: 'Below Stairs in Colonial Australia'" This is another treasure as it has such wonderful sketches and photos as well. Helen Vellacott discovered an old volume on a London bookstall which was entitled "The Autobiography of a Cook", but when she examined it found that it was more an account of a girl who went out to Australia and worked in the Government houses. It begins with 'An English Childhood, 1867 - 1886'. Helen then just had to try and trace who the girl was who had once lived in Richmond. It was published anonymously with a warning that the reader would not find the author anywhere in the county which she described. The Foreword then goes on to describe how Helen traced the writer and identified her as Agnes Stokes. This alone makes the book a treasure for any family history enthusiast.
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Yes the online version of Richard Doyle's book does have illustrations:
http://archive.org/stream/journalkeptbyric00doyl#page/n11/mode/2up
The Girl at Government House sounds intriguing.
So many diaries, so little time. :)
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http://books.google.com.au/books?id=eNfHNcPTUc8C&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=agnes+stokes&source=bl&ots=_wASZgT8gm&sig=lB41ZwQdZnq462fRcUcVvfcREpA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EJiIUfSZCcujigeX3ICADg&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=agnes%20stokes&f=false
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Well WA are happy for me to post the cutting on here so I'll transcribe it in sections over the next few days.
Talks About Old London
The Octogenarian Book Lover of Stepney
Volumes by the Ton
Collector who never earned more than £2 a week
Mr Nathaniel Bryceson, 83 years old, is the subject of the 123rd talk. His learning is one of the objects of Stepney's highest admiration.
'Two tons of books - I had two tons. I know they weighed two tons, because when I was moving they broke the carman's van and it was guaranteed to carry two tons.'
The bent, white-haired old man moves a slow hand round the crowded walls of his little back room.
From bed to door old books. In the drawers of the old desk old books. On the walls - old prints of old churches.
'Churches.' he says 'where my ancestors are to be found. That's a picture of 'the Dook,' in the room he died in - nearly as plain as mine.'
Well something to think about....
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Thanks Jo A! ;D
I'm fascinated already!
On the walls - old prints of old churches.
'Churches.' he says 'where my ancestors are to be found. That's a picture of 'the Dook,' in the room he died in - nearly as plain as mine.'
We know Nathaniel loved churches. His weekend walks and other jaunts often included exploring churches. :)
What on earth is 'the Dook'? Who died in it?
This is very timely Jo A, as I was just about to ask you what context Nathaniel had said that his grandmother had 11 children.
I have had a reasonably good forage around and though I found a couple of possibilites, they are not in St Pancras Old church where both Mary and John were baptised, so there is no way of knowing if they are the correct children to the correct parents. Of course the family may have moved around therefore christening children in various places, but still no certainty about who belongs to who. However even taking this into account there are nowhere near 11 children born to a John and Mary Shep*d in Middlesex in a reasonable time frame. It seems that Mary (mother of Nathaniel) is the first child after John and Mary (Granny Shepard) married. I am not sure about the number of records of the area which are available online, so perhaps this is why I can't find these children. :-\
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I wondered if in context "the Dook" was a person, pictured in the room he later died in?
"Dook" being a jokey pronunciation of "Duke", perhaps?
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I think "the Dook" is a reference to the Duke of Wellington. Who else would be referred to simply as "the Dook"?
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Dook sounds like Duke said with an American accent. In the context in which it was written it makes sense for Dook to be a person. Maybe the Duke of Wellington - as Shaun says, who else would be known simply as 'the Dook'?
I'm not sure how Nathaniel ended up in a "little back room", as he can't have been a pauper. We know that in 1901 he was in Clerkenwell with a servant, and in 1911 he died in the house of his daughter and son in law, but in between he may have been living elsewhere.
I also wonder if the article has been exaggerated for dramatic effect.
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yes I thought that the Dook was the Duke of Wellington as well. I'm wondering if the little back room was 'his' room in his daughter's house. The article locates him in Stepney which is where they lived. It's also quite possible that he was still able to work in 1901 but not for much longer and it must have been hard to maintain an income in those days once your capability to work worsened.
Anyway here's the next instalment..
'That's an oil painting of 1442. No one knows who it is. Oh! I'm a bit of an antiquary.'
'Clerks never were overpaid in London. I was reckoned quick at figures, something of a writer and I worked day and night and never had a Sunday off for twenty years.'
'I kept books for as many as eleven people at once. And I never earned £2 a week in my life'
'But I managed to collect two tons of books. No novels - nothing of that kind! History, philosophy, theology.'
'London had its old book shops from one end to another, haunted by eccentric old characters like me. I'd suppose you'd call me a bit eccentric.'
'Look at the kind of Bibles we used to buy. There's one now. Printed in 1579 in old English black letter type. Look at the size of it'
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Fascinating!
What I wouldn't give to have a rummage through Nathaniel Bryceson's room!!!!!! A painting from 1442! A bible from 1579! :o The things he has collected are amazing, but it's exactly what I would expect of him having read the words he wrote as a 19/20 year old.
Jo A, it may well be that the room he describes is the one in his daughter's house in Stepney if he refers to being in Stepney in the article.
Thank you Jo A for sharing this with us. :)
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Walmer Castle - The Duke of Wellington's bedroom and the chair in which he died:
http://historicalmovies.wordpress.com/tag/the-duke-of-wellington/
I wonder if this is the 'Dook' Nathaniel refers to, and if this is the room in which he died. I suppose this room is 'plain' (as Nathaniel says), but it's also very nice. :)
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I'm wondering if the little back room was 'his' room in his daughter's house. The article locates him in Stepney which is where they lived.
Looking at the census, most of the houses on Dempsey Street when Nathaniel was living there look to have been about 7 rooms, so quite large. Nearly all of those I looked at appear to have two families living at the same address, so for example, a family with 5 rooms and a family with 2 rooms, making a total of 7 rooms. There are various combinations such as 6 and 1, so it looks like the householders perhaps rented out a basement or attic room. I am wondering if Nathaniel did this too when living at his daughter's house at 107 Dempsey Street.
The Stangrooms appear to have rented out two rooms in their house after Nathaniel's death. This is pure assumption of course, as we have no idea if he ever lived with his daughter even though he died there.
Dempsey Street is no longer there, but it used to be the next street to the right parallel with Jubilee St (there are flats built in the area and you can see a line of flats along where Dempsey Street used to be :()
[In 1901 the Stangrooms were living at 102 Dempsey St and had a boarder]
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I have to say I'm a tad sceptical about the 1442 oil painting. It was quite a new technique then and there can't have been many paintings from that era that could be dated that precisely. Nathaniel may have sincerely thought that's when it was painted though. I found out that the Scottish edition of the Geneva Bible was printed in 1579 so maybe more feasible.
Anyway here's some more books ...
LATIN SELF TAUGHT
'Ive something older than that - a Latin collection of Petrarch's poems dated 1490. I can read it, rather slowly'
'Education wasn't to be got easily in old London, but I bought 'Riddles Latin Dictionary' in 1848 and I taught myself Latin.
'I practised by copying the language from old tombstones and memorial inscriptions from old churches and giving them a free rendering.
'When I was young the usual library in a house was the Bible. Fox's 'Book of Martyrs,' and one or two more.'
'My copy of 'Fox's Martyrs' now - I don't know the weight, but it's a huge book and a good many pounds.'
'The type isn't quite the size of loaves of bread, but nearly as big as three penny bits.'
He seems very interested in what things weigh, doesn't he?
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You may be right that the dates of some of Nathaniel's possessions could be inaccurate. 1442 seems very precise though, which makes me wonder if it was dated in some way. (He doesn't say it is an oil painting though.) I suppose it is possible that it was a Victorian fake as we know the Victorians were very keen on times past so may have liked the idea of a 1442 painting. :) However Nathaniel was no fool and had a knack of seeking these things out, so I think he may have had a painting from 1442 - I'm sure he had ways and means of obtaining these things.
Regarding the Latin Self Taught.
Yes, this is something that Nathaniel talks about in his diary. He did copy tombstones and we know he was trying to teach himself Latin while writing the diary in 1846. Maybe after his purchase of the Latin Dictionary, the task became easier.
I'm really enjoying the article Jo A. How many more installments can we expect?
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I'm fascinated too :)
This looks likely to be the same edition of Petrarch that Nathaniel had:
http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/collector/petrarch/petrarch_6.html
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Think we're just under half way now. I'm quite impressed with the journalistic skills of the writer. It's one of the liveliest pieces that are kept in the book. And yes, I guess it's quite possible that he had such an old painting. I read recently that an unknown miniature of Queen Elizabeth I turned up in a house clearance.
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Beautiful book avm. :)
I have started thinking about what happened to Nathaniel's possessions when he died. I hope that family members treasured them as much as he did. I hate to think of any other scenarios .... :'(
Looking forward to a couple more days of transcriptions Jo A. :)
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Another book to think about..
'One of the most popular books with serious old Londoners about 1850 was Peter Cunningham's 'Handbook of London' and I saved and saved and searched all the old shops until I found this copy was for auction.
A West End clergyman bid against me, and he was quite savage with me when I got it.
But he'd made me pay a nice old price for it! All the booksellers knew me when I went round on my searches.
I first met Mr Westall in 1839 when he had a place in Bozier's court, off Tottenham Court road.'
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So Nathaniel was aggressively searching out specific books to add to his collection. I love the way he speaks of "serious old Londoners" and "old London".
Great stuff Jo A. :)
Should we assume that Mr Westall is a bookseller? I know in his diary Nathaniel mentions places he shopped and Bozier's Court rings a bell - can anyone else recall him mentioning a book shop there in 1846?
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Should we assume that Mr Westall is a bookseller? I know in his diary Nathaniel mentions places he shopped and Bozier's Court rings a bell - can anyone else recall him mentioning a book shop there in 1846?
Oooh yes! 8)
http://catsmeatshop.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/lost-streets-boziers-court.html
(Click on map to enlarge - Bozier's Court is in the top left corner near the red line)
If you look at a modern map of the area today (at the northern side of the intersection between Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street) you can see a triangular area remaining where the row of buildings containing Bozier's Court used to stand.
Scroll down for some excellent images from one of our previous threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=500342.20
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And we can read it here to see why it was so sought after:
http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Handbook_of_London.html?id=0BQNAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y
[oh yes, I can see the attraction - that is going on my favourites bar :)]
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Just so that Jo doesn't think she is talking to an audience of only a couple, there are others, well at least one - me! who is reading your entries and thank you for posting them.
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Nice of you to drop in Mary A. I see this thread has been read well over 5,000 times so I don't think you're the only one reading. I hope not anyway. ;D
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... I hope not anyway. ;D
Definitely not!
Loving it - and thank you Jo for your generosity.
Paul
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Thanks for the hellos. I see an Amey there in the list - my husband's family name. They've been in Dorset since time began though.
Here's some more serious reading.
NOTHING FROTHY
'Here's the kind of things I picked up - nothing frothy or comic about these - 'Scriptural Paraphrases' 'Norton's Statements of Reasons' Gentleman's Magazine 1826' 'Holy Bible' of seventeen hundred and something, 'Ecclesiastical History' 'County Families' of fifty years ago.
That's the kind of reading earnest people took. And we went to chapel three times on Sunday, and if by any chance we wanted a little recreation we had a walk in the park.
Theatres? Haven't been to six in my life. Theatres weren't to my taste when there were plenty of old churches and old graves and epitaphs.'
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Um, a bit of light reading there Nathaniel! ;) ;D
But I'm sure he is right that 'earnest' people did read these kinds of books, and Nathaniel did come across as being quite a serious young man.
Nathaniel didn't seem to be too much of a churchgoer in 1846 (though he did accompany others) - he seemed to be more intested in the graves and epitaphs than the service.
And a walk in the park for recreation? Maybe in his later years, but a 30 mile walk was fairly normal for Nathaniel's Sunday outings in 1846.
A dislike of theatres is exactly what I would expect of Nat. ;D
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I had a reasonable look through yesterday's Handbook of London by Peter Cunningham (which took him 7 years to write), and I can understand why Nathaniel coveted it. I suppose it's a bit like a guide book of London - it's actually something that I think Nathaniel himself could have written, (with the addition of a lot more churches and epitaphs of course ;)).
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Some interesting articles in The Gentleman's Magazine, Septemeber 1826, but the other titles mentioned are proving difficult to pin down as no mention of authors.
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Oddly enough I'd just made a rare excursion to the theatre to see 'The Important of Being Earnest' when I found the cutting in the scrapbook. I think Nat would have agreed with the sentiment of the title if not the play itself! Let's see what else he got up to..
'I've only ever known one game in my life and that's chess. I never won more than a farthing a game at it.
In the old days we never went out feasting much. Except at Christmas. We might go out then.
And women kept to their homes. To see a drunken woman was a rarity, a curiosity.
Now the drinking among women seems terrible to old men like me. But the men are better - there have been so many teetotallers spring up among them.'
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Righto - I don't recall Nathaniel playing chess in 1846. Does anyone else remember if he made any mention of this? It could easily be something he picked up later in life.
Agree that Nathaniel didn't go out feasting. He always seemed to eat at home, though he did go very regularly to coffeee shops.
Love his mention of men/women drinkers. :) He did have an occassional tipple in 1846. ;)
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And we now come to the section subheaded
THE VIRTUES OF SMALLPOX
'See these smallpox marks on my face? They were very common seventy years ago. No one thought anything of them. No one was so much afraid of smallpox.
It was looked on as a kill or cure disease.
My grandmother, who had eleven children, used to say 'If one has it, let them all associate and sleep together and catch it and get it over.' She did that with hers, but they wouldn't all take it, no matter what she did.
We thought it an impious act to vaccinate. Religious people generally did.'
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Now that entry is interesting. I used to work at the Jenner Museum, which is in the house where Edward Jenner, who pioneered vaccination used to live. Before vaccination, which uses the cowpox virus, people used to innoculate ie use live smallpox virus. As long as you didn't die of the disease, you did become immune to catching smallpox in the future. Nathaniel's grandma was obviously thinking along the same lines. There was opposition in the early days of vaccination because many people thought it was unnatural for people to catch or be given an animal disease. What they didn't realise was that people were catching smallpox and god knows what else from animals all the time.
PS I too have been reading this thread "invisibly"
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I suppose it was like when we were younger and the 'childhood diseases' such as mumps, measles or chicken pox were doing the rounds, all the local kids were encouraged to mix so they would catch it to "get it over with". Now there are vaccinations for everything.
In "The Diaries of Sarah Hurst 1759-1762", her younger brother and sister are sent off to the "innoculating house" where they receive the smallpox vaccination. The stay there for a couple of weeks, presumably to check their reactions to the virus. Her father also has "the smallpox" - he must have been very ill because they drew up his will. ;D
It must be Granny Sheppard who he refers to as having 11 children. In 1846 Nathaniel only had one known grandmother - unless he later discovered his real parentage and his Granny White?
Can anyone find any more than two children for Granny Sheppard? Nine missing birth/baptisms is an awful lot. Keep in mind that Mary Lea (Granny Sheppard) married John Sheppard 10 May 1796 St Andrew by the Wardrobe. Mary Sheppard (Nat's mother) was born 27 Jun 1797, John Sheppard (Uncle John) was born 9 Jun 1803. So there could be a child in between Mary and John ( who were given the names of their parents so possibly first born daughter and son?). So any further children were obviously born later than 1803. Nathaniel never mentions any other Aunts or Uncles in his diary.
A mystery ....
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Would he have known about any born but who died? the Mary and John we know about might have been named after an earlier baby.
St Pancras Old Church, Camden
27th June, 1796/23rd July, 1796 Mary daughter of John and Mary Shepard
St Mary Le Strand, Middlesex
18th July, 1801/19th August, 1801 Susanna Amy Shephard daughter of John and Mary
Same church
17 Nov 1803/18 Dec 1803 John Barton Shephard son of John and Mary
St James, Clerkenwell, Middlesex
10 October 1809/29 Oct 1809 Maria Roseland daughter of John and Mary Shephard
St Botolph, Aldgate, London
27 September/29 Oct 1797 John Wilkins Shepherd son of John and Mary, Queen Street, Tower Hill
Nice of them to give an address ;D
There are a number of other baptisms, however I don't know whether they would be applicable because of where they were, if anybody is able to suggest which might be appropriate then I'd be pleased to list what there is later on today.
St George, Hanover Square, Middlesex
St Luke, Chelsea, Middlesex
St James, Clerkenwell, Middlesex
St James, Piccadilly, Middlesex
St Martin in the Fields, Middlesex
St Marylebone, Middlesex
St Mary, Whitechapel, Middlesex
St Pancras Old Church, Middlesex
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I do remember seeing several of those in my searches MaryA. But how can we know if this couple are the right John and Mary?
I put them aside due to the different places of baptisms, though this doesn't mean they aren't ours. I think I even saw one possibility prior to 1796. Without an address or occupation it's hard to make that connection.
We have mother Mary and Uncle John's births due to Nat mentioning them in his diary. Both were christened St Pancras Old Church, but of course the parents could have moved around/changed churches after christening their (possible) first two children .... :-\
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Based on your comments I think the only one we could make assumptions about is
St Pancras Old Church
John, Son of John and Mary Sheppherd 24th March/12th May 1799.
The others are all in different churches.
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Yes, that one looks promising. He must have died because:
9 June 1803 -
John Shepard born
chr 3 July 1803
Old Church St Pancras
father: John, mother: Mary
This is Uncle John from Nat's diary.
It does make you wonder if Nathaniel would have known about any which had died in infancy. I suppose Granny Sheppard must have just told him she'd had 11? :-\
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Another interesting character here..
'There's a picture of my grandmother's parson, Mr William Huntington.
He was a labourer in Kent. He was of a serious turn of mind and alarmed about his soul and salvation and all that - and when he and a few others used to meet on Sunday he discovered he had powers he wasn't aware of.
He became the greatest spokesman there and got looked up to.'
'He came to London and married the widow of a Lord Mayor. My grandmother was never done telling me about him - he was before my chapel days - and she used to tell me how he carried on when his enemy John Wesley died. 'Now,' she heard him say, 'is the arch-dragon fallen!'
Think theres three sections to go now.
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There's this article in Wiki about William Huntington - not my cup of tea, but very popular in his day - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Huntington_%28preacher%29
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This more or less confirms my theory that Nathaniel got religion later in life, because he mentions that Mr Huntington was "before his chapel days". As I said in an earlier post, I didn't get the impression that Nathaniel was a particularly keen churchgoer in 1846. He accompanied people to church and I remember reading that he "left before the service".
I'm off to read alpinecottage's wiki link. :)
So Huntington 'saw the light' ::) - not surprising considering his early life. He's definitely not my cup of tea either. :P
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If Huntington was a Baptist minister and grandmother became a Baptist, could this explain why there's no christenings recorded for any younger children? Anyway here's another 'man of the cloth.'
'The Rev William Romaine, who was a minister at St Andrew-by-the-Wardrobe Church, Blackfriars, marred my grandmother.
'The old church was burned in the Great Fire of London, and in the new one, which was designed by Sir Christopher Wren, a monument was erected to Romaine.'
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All you wanted to know about Rev Romaine and more besides; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Romaine
I meant to say before, Nathaniel seems to have been accurate in what he said about these gentlemen, judging by Wiki!, so I imagine the other details he gives are accurate too.
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Agree with you alpine. Nathaniel is spot on with everything he says.
And yes, we already know that Granny Sheppard married at St Andrew by the Wardrobe. :)
I was going to ask if anyone can explain why Nathaniel refers to churches as 'chapels'? Is it non CofE churches? Jo A, it is a good idea to check other church records for the rest of Granny Sheppard's children. Would these be classed as non conformist?
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I'm pretty sure 'chapel' refers to non-Conformist churches. If Granny Sheppard become a follower of William Huntington it looks like he set up a Baptist congregation and they wouldn't have christened their babies at all. I don't know how this affects the birth records. It looks as if Nathaniel may have become a chapel goer later in life. I think as a self-taught scholar he would have found more recognition in a non-conformist setting than the more middle class Anglican world.
Here's the penultimate installment
A QUEEN ANNE WATCH
'Here are some more old things in this drawer. There's my old school medal won in 1837. Seems a long time ago! Here's a Queen Anne watch - feel the weight of it. What - two hundred years old. Goes quite well now, and I got it for a dozen shillings.'
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Thanks for that explanation Jo A. I think there must be some non conformist records available. Like you, I'm not sure whether or not their births would have been registered. I will have to post a question about it. I don't know anything about non-conformist records.
Today's snippet is very interesting. (What I wouldn't do to be able to go through Nathaniel's drawers -I can imagine the stuff he would have collected over the years ). We often speculated about Nathaniel's education. He was obviously bright and had received an education of some sort, but I think mainly self taught. We wondered if the Lea family had paid for his schooling. I am not at all surprised that he won a school medal in 1837. :)
That's got me wondering about school records - depending on where he went to school -I suppose there may be records which have survived.
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Well here's the final installment.
'One of the 'Darktown' studies of coloured prints - those lively studies of niggers and trotting horses that represent Art on barbers' walls -caught the old man's eye.
'Don't think that's mine!' he appealed hastily. 'I don't go in for comic nonsense. That's a relative's!'
He returned to his chair to bury himself in the chaste delights of Sir Walter Scott's 'The Antiquary.'
'He's got a head on him, he has,' said one of his reverent friends. 'Wish I had his head!'
Whenever they talk of the old student in Stepney, they say 'He has a head on him!' W. McC.
Sorry about the 'n' word. Maybe the reference to the picture belonging to a relative supports the idea that he was living in a room at his daughter's in Stepney.
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Sorry about the 'n' word.
Makes the line at the end of your posts particularly apt - the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there ;D
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Thanks very much Jo A. That was a great insight into Nathaniel's world over 60 years after the first. Magic.
It is amazing what a few words can tell you. I agree Jo A, in that by Nat saying that the print belongs to a relative, this is probably confirmation that he is living with his daughter at this time.
Looking back, Nathaniel mentions the Duke of Wellington several times in his diary, so I think those who suggested the person Nat refers to as 'the Dook' was him, are correct. He was obviously a person of interest to Nathaniel. The fact that he refers to Granny Sheppard so often at the age of 83 also proves what high regard he held her in. This was evident throughout the diary when he always spoke of her with affection.
Thanks again Jo A. If you find any other mentions in your scrap book of Nathaniel or any of his descendants, could you please let us know.
Have enjoyed this immensely. ;D
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Sorry for the delay, just catching up after an absence of a few days.
Just wanted to say thank you to Jo for all your posts, it is certainly wonderful to be able to catch up on Nathaniel so much later in life.
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Profuse apologies for bumping an old thread, and thereby possibly giving the impression that I have new information to contribute when I sadly don't.
But I only came across this thread just, after about a year's absence (I was thinking about Nathaniel and wondering if any more had been revealed in this thread in the intervening year, so decided to take a look.) Anyway was really pleased to see the newspaper article that Jo A has so kindly transcribed. Speaking as someone who was captivated by the original diary and was (somewhat unrealistically) hoping that some of the other ones might yet surface, to be able to read Nat's words from later in life was an unexpected treat. It does sound like he discovered religion as he got older, but the same personality comes across clearly regardless.
Thanks Jo!
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Hello drykid,
Good to see you again - any contributions to these threads are always welcome.
I really enjoyed 'knowing' Nathaniel in his latter years through this article. Agree with you about his personality coming across in a similar vein to his diary entries so many years earlier.
I still think of Nat regularly and every now and then try a search or two in an attempt to fill in some of our blanks, in case I missed something earlier, or new records have come online.
Sadly, I have found nothing new, but I am still hoping for another of his diaries to surface ... somewhere. :)
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Thanks Ruskie - I'm sure if anyone is able to turn up any further info from the searches then it will be you, given your previous successes :)
I was just googling the "Talks About Old London" series from the Evening News to see what else it threw up, and it seems it was well enough known at the time for Punch to take a dig at it in 1910. I'm not sure what Nat would've made of it, but it's quite amusing nonetheless:
TALKS ABOUT OLD LONDON.
(\Yilli ain'orjira to " The Keening \eirx.")
" Ah yes," he said, "I remember 1907. I've always had a good memory."
"I was sitting on a bench in Battersea Park conversing with Mr. Thomas Binjies, a Londoner born and bred.
'That was a great year," he continued. "It was good to be alive then."
"Let me see ; then you can recollect seeing the sun ? " I said.
"Yes, we had some sun in 1907. Very pretty it was too, shining on the chimney pots and warming the sooty air. We used to get about dry-shod in those days."
"And they tell me that there were hansoms then."
"Oh, yes, that's right. It was before the days of the.-chere taxis. Hai everywhere, there were. Bright young fellows on the box and smart spanking horses in the shafts. There are a few left, I 'in told, but they're ruins. Nothing to what they used to be."
"And omnibuses were drawn by horses, too?"
"That's right. I 've seen them with these eyes."
"How strange it all is!" I said. "Tell me some more."
"Well, there's my father. He ain't what you call an old man, but he remembers the Embankment before they had the trams running along it."
"That was in the days of the penny steamers, wasn't it ?"
" Yes, that's so. And some days, when his head is clear, he has a sort of dim recollection of London before The Daily Mail was started. But he can't be quite sure whether it was in his time or my grandfather's."
This last glimpse into the dark ages was too overwhelming, and hurriedly excusing myself I bade farewell to this wonderful living link with the past the man whose father remembered London without The Daily Mail!
(Article is taken from this link:
http://www.archive.org/stream/punchvol138a139lemouoft/punchvol138a139lemouoft_djvu.txt?referer=www.clickfind.com.au
It's one of those OCR-ed docs that contains a lot of errors, so I corrected them as best I could.)
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;D
Oh yes, very amusing. They could almost be taking the mickey out of Nat himself. (escept for the use of the word "aint" - Nat would never have said that. ;))
PS. Actually many others found a lot more valuable information related to this search than I did, but thanks for the comment anyway. :)
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PS. Actually many others found a lot more valuable information related to this search than I did, but thanks for the comment anyway. :)
I wasn't suggesting that you were the only one to find info though; just that you were one of the most determined :) Actually to be honest I've forgotten largely who discovered what now, anyway. The only thing I'm fairly sure of is that I haven't discovered anything much.
One thing I did find though was that the actual Evening News edition that Jo A's cutting is from (20th January 1909) is actually online at http://newspaperarchive.com. Unfortunately this is a pay site so I can't really attach the relevant image here, however if you go there and search for the relevant edition by date and publication then you should be able to view it. You might even be able to do so for free as I think it allows you a free search or two per person per day :)
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;D
That is a really wonderful find - thanks for sharing drykid! It is good to see the article in situ in the newspaper of the day, albeit a scan. ;)
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Topic continued at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=687619.0