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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Cindy Paquet on Friday 26 October 12 01:04 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
Here is the info that I have.My great grandmother Emma Smith was born in 1879 in Shippagan New Brunswick, her parents are Ruben Smith dates unknown..Theotiste Paulin 1854..They were married on May 10 1883 in Caraquet New Brunswick..Emma went on to marry Joseph Martin Mallet (1883-?) on March 6 1905.
I have family members that have said that they were from Ireland..I can't find any info as to where or when he was born..on a side note James R Smith was a witness to Emma's wedding and there is no info on him as well.
I'm wondering if Ruben is actually someone's middle name..maybe that's why i can't find him..I may have found his father Reuben d.1833 but can't be sure it's him..I mean how come I can find Reuben Sr. and not his son?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
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Ruben, Reuben not a well used name so will post any subsequent finds in case they help eventually lead to the same family
Click on links in left panel for more results ( note that "other" is newspaper accounts & other sources) http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ryf/
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http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/VISSE/141B7.aspx?culture=en-CA&guid=AEED0B4A-9C7B-4208-A166-04131642BC4C
Marriage of Emma shows a different first name for her mother. Since she was Roman Catholic a spelling variation of Marie a possibility.
The marriage record for Reuben Smith of Red Bank Miramichi, s/o Reuben Smith and Ann Edger on 10 May 1883 was to Theotiste POULIN d/o Xavier Poulin and Angele Thigault (? ) of Caraquet. Solomie Poulin was one of the witnesses.
d. St. Mary's Shippegan (Glouc Co)- 6th inst Reuben Smith of Redbank Southesk (North Co), age 35
from the Oct 20 1883 Chatham Northumberland newspaper "The World"
A death so soon after marriage might be the reason you can't find him.
d. St. James (Charlotte Co) Reuben Smith June 28, 1831 Northumberland county, Chatham, newspaper Teh gleaner and Nurthumberland Schediasma
A different record for marriage of Reuben Smith from the newspaper Union Advocate, June 20, 1883 Newcastle Northumberland
m. at residence of W.S. Brown, Shippegan (Glouc Co) 17 May by REv. J. S. Trudell parish priest Reuben Smith Red Bank (North Co) and Miss Kate Poulin Caraquet.
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I have also been helping Cindy on another site but I recommended Rootschat to her :)
I also found the marriage on 10 May 1883 and I see on the marriage cert that William S Brown is a witness on it.
On the 1871 & 1881 census Reuben Smith is living with a W S Brown in Northumberland district New Brunnswick. It says he was born in West Indies and is a Tinsmith.
gjil
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Hi,
Thanks for all your help, it does explain the senior Reuben..but the son Ruben is such a mystery..if the Sr. Reuben who was born in the West Indies died in 1850 then he can't be Ruben's dad..especially if Ruben's b date may be around 1860's.
Don't understand why family members are so insistent on an Irish connection..then there is the James R Smith connection that was a witness to Emma's wedding.
Again thanks
Cindy
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The Reuben that married in 1883 is the one on the 1871 & 1881 census that says he's born in the West Indies. On one census it says he is Scottish and on the other Irish.
If you read back to what Cosmac posted
"d. St. Mary's Shippegan (Glouc Co)- 6th inst Reuben Smith of Redbank Southesk (North Co), age 35
from the Oct 20 1883 Chatham Northumberland newspaper "The World"
A death so soon after marriage might be the reason you can't find him."
that would make him born 1848.
gjil
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Maybe what I should do is concentrate my search for the Sr. Reuben and not the son Ruben(Emma's dad) I might be able to get more info that way..is it common to not be able to find someone only to be able to find someone you shouldn't? I mean Sr. Reuben is older and he's been found..so back to more search :)
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Yes he does say b.1853 Barbadoes on 1881 census ...but ages are often off... this is where as gjil pointed out, he says of Irish descen thttp://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e326/e008134920.jpg
There is a James Smith in Alma, Albert born 1809 West Indies but not sure if Catherine is wife or daughter with him http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e325/e008124941.jpg
Also widow in previos household Berethy?? from W.I.
and an Alfred D. Smith in Sackville, Westmorland b. 1844 West Indies http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e326/e008133604.jpg
Others in Ontario/Quebec/Nova Scotia from W.I. on 1881 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ryl/
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In 1871 he says Bermuda? and of Scottish descent http://www.rootschat.com/links/0rym/ h
Should we perhaps also be looking for a seafaring father as well as one born in W.I??
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Finally, I see the light..lol
It all makes sense to me now...you have no idea how confusing this all was..
I mistook Reuben Sr. to be the one born in the West Indies..not the younger one(Emma's Dad)..excited now to research this new bit of info :)
Thanks so much
Cindy
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The parents may also have remained in West Indies, and he may have just come alone or because a rellie was already there... Need to look at all options... We gave you all the previous Reubens to look at anyway.
There is a marriage in Ireland but don't jump on it as yours, since there is no real evidence so far this is true... https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FTBG-X2R
Bermuda isn't part of the West Indies, just near it as far as I know...but Barbadoes is...He also stated Scottish, or the enumerator got carried away with his ticks in either case, you never know what's true with only one source...
oops, I am wrong about that apparently, sorry......
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This maybe a coincidence but this is from
Date September 2 1873
County Saint John
Place Saint John
Newspaper The Daily Telegraph
"Reuben SMITH of LaHave, a seaman and part owner of schr. "Spring Bird" was washed overboard from that vessel off Halifax, N.S. on Sunday night."
This could be the Reuben who fathered Reuben in Barbados about 1848.
Also from newspaper accounts there had been at least 3 generations of Reuben's living in this area
Barry
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Wow,
This is very interesting as I was wondering how Reuben ended up being born in Barbados, his dad must have been a seaman..I was trying to piece it all together..so this doesn make sense
Three generations of Reuben's living in the area, that would explain how it was so hard to figure out which Reuben belong to who..at least they were original..very interesting.. :)
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Xavier Paulin the father of Theotiste Paulin is murdered in 1874 by his wife and another man. He is executed and she is sent to prison for life. This might explain why their children were farmed out in 1881 census
Barry
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Holy Cow!
Unbelievable! I am speechless...this just gets weirder and weirder..
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http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/NewspaperVitalStats/Default.aspx?culture=en-CA
In case you're wondering where some of this information comes from
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From the links I gave you earlier, there was a Reuben and a James in Charlotte land records, perhaps he might have been the one who died 1831. http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/RS108/Details.aspx?culture=en-CA&Key=57439
By 1891 had her mother remarried? She seems to have a new last name ( LeBlanc?) and listed as a pauper, with Emma a domestic, unless I have the wrong household? http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/001081-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=324827
If that was correct, then a death 1899, and age does match for her! http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/VISSE/141C4.aspx?culture=en-CA&guid=3bdffd57-ceda-4ff6-9ae5-3f02339bf587
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The James Smith who may have been born W.I. is listed as Scottish in 1881 and here as born Ireland
http://www.nbgs.ca/firstfamilies/FAMILY-S-2006.pdf
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J.J. there also seems to be a Veronique Paulin mixed up in this story but I cant seem to see where she fits.
Also it is unclear as to why married women seem always to be named via their maiden names on Birth and marriage certs but on census they seem to be using married names. Is this a normal thing in French Canadian documents?
Barry
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It is normal to find the woman under her maiden name in the BMd records in Quebec, particularly the French and Catholic records. A burial record would normally be registered under the maiden name in the older records. I don't know off-hand if it is still the same or when this practice may have been discontinued if not. I have a Cath record for 1923 that is recorded and indexed as Mary 'Maiden Name' widow of Y.
To this day a married woman would, for example, be found in a hospital in Quebec under her maiden name with her married name probably in brackets or something.
PB
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Could some kind soul please translate this entry in the baptism book.
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I believe that is my Grandmother's sister's birth certificate..my father is coming over today and is very excited..he also spoke with family members about my quest and they are sending him documents..I should get them next week..when I do i will post..excited to see what it is :)
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emma's baptism in 1881 confirming birth 5/6/1879 and that Reuben was father
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Thanks,
This confirms it, along with her birthdate as well.
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I would snip or capture the images of the birth registrations while they're still on this link. Since it infringes copyright restrictions of this forum it might be removed by the moderators at some point.
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I have them saved so she could always send me a private message with her email address.
Barry
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Just to clear up the married versus maiden names in Quebec.
Since 1981, this is the law in Quebec
Spouses names
Both spouses keep their birth names after marriage and continue to exercise their civil rights under that name
i.e. they must use their birth name in cotnracts, on credit cards, drivers licences, etc.
This rule applies to all spouses domiciled in Quebec, even if they were married outside Quebec.
However, women married before April 2, 1981 who were already using their husbands surnames before that date may continue to exercise their civil rights under their married name. So, bank records, drivers licence etc, for married women using their husbands surname could continue to use that name.
However, hospital records, death records will be under the maiden name no matter when they married. Obituaries for those married before 1981 can be under either married surname or maiden surname or both.
It can be very confusing but came in as part of the equality of woman rules.
When searching especially in Quebec and New Brunswick, you need to search for both maiden and married names.
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1861 census Northesk Smiths including http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ryw/
Thomas Smith age 10, c.1851
Robert Smith age 12 c.1849
Northesk District 1, Northumberland
West Indian! ... Presbyterian
relationship to head of household is listed as Grandson
sheet numbe 38 line number:41 & 42
Can anyone see into this household
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Son and I were trying to figure out how this family ended up in the West Indies, and the Irish connection..Father was here yesterday and was very insistent that they were Irish..he also said that Emma was adopted out..my guess is that when Theotiste remarried to Leblanc she was unable to care for her...that's why she was a domestic at 12 yrs living with the Savoy family.
We figured that the ancestors being Irish were indentured slaves in Barabados, with Rueben and James leaving to go to New Brunswick..it makes sense..
I will look into these names,that may be the connection to Rueben, although you seem to have better luck than myself.
Thanks
Cindy
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You can't make sense of anything until you have some solid proof there are too many reasons they might have been there...Some of the Islands were under British rule...He or an ancestor may have gone there as a soldier, either Britain or the colony of Canada to protect their interests ( imports being more important than human lives) He may have been a merchant seaman or just a sailor...
I am sure there are many other scenarios....but that is why you need to keep digging. ;D
I gather you had other information on Theotiste as you seemed to know she was remarried...She is a lodger with the same family....so she has not abandoned the child. She may have been unable to work.
Not sure what she was labeled as before crossing it out on the 1891 census. Indi___l? pauper (Perhaps Indigenal for Indigenous but back then it would have meant of the area)
J.J.
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The 1861 census household for Thomas and Robert Smith ...
Margaret Edgar 64 Widow Scotch
Janet Edgar Daur 30 Scotch
Margaret Edgar Daur (???) 14 Native (would mean b. in New Brunswick)
Robert Smith 12 Grandson West Indian
Thomas Smith 10 Grandson West Indian
On Ruben's marriage to Theotiste his mother' name is given as Ann EDGAR.
Can't see Margaret (above) being the daughter of the elder Margaret, given her age? Perhaps actually a granddaughter? Age could also be wrong, of course.
PB
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To clarify a few things that me and the wife have discovered.
Reuben Smith (father of Reuben) b circa 1830 possibly Scotland marries Ann Edgar who we think is Scottish born circa 1830
Reuben (son) marries Theotiste Paulin in 1883 (dispensation granted May 1883)
Reuben says his parents are as above
Theotiste says her parents are Frances Xavier Paulin and Angele Frigault
Angele and lover are convicted of Xavier’s murder in 1874, Lover is executed and Angele is sentenced to life and released in 1895. She was pregnant at the time of sentencing
Reuben and Theotiste have 2 children as far as we can tell Emma b june 1879 (illigitement) bapt 1881 and Annie Jane b July 1883 babt July 1883.
In October 1883 Reuben (son) dies aged 35 he was born West Indies in 1848 according to the death but 1854 according to census. In 1881 and 1871 he is living as a lodger in the household of W S Brown where the marriage took place, he was a tinsmith.
Problems
1. No marriage for Reuben to Ann Edgar
2. Cannot see Theotiste in household of Xavier and Angele I have 1871 and 1861
3. Theotiste seems to be in household of D’Assie Paulin and Veronique Hache
Further I have Theotiste Paulin b 1856 in 1861,1871,1881 in the household of D'assisse Paulin and Veronique Hache. I also have the household of Francois Xavier Paulin and Angele Frigault 1861 & 1871 (as I said above Xavier is murdered in 1874 and Angele is sent to jail) but nowhere is there a Theotiste Paulin in Xavier's household
Barry
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Kitty is likely Theotiste...( dit Kate, Katerine, Katie, Kitty) She may also show up as Marie ( the actual first name given to a great deal of Catholic female children, including some men)
Jane W Edgars and sister Margaret are in Hamilton City, Canada West / Ontario in 1852 ...Polarbear will get the heads of household for us I am sure ( and hopefully be thanked for her efforts, since that is our small reward for all our time devoted to such a search...) *see added information below J.J.
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Baptism ...
Theotiste Poulin
24 Nov 1854
Parents Xavier Poulin and Angele Frigau
In Caraquet
Added: Theotiste was b. 11 Nov 1854
Gosh knows where she went though if not with parents. Could be with grandparents or ?
The word next to pauper would be indigent, which means the same thing.
I'll post on Jane and Mgt in a bit.
PB
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Hopefully Polarbear sees this first, I had modified the earlier post to add but she had come online and posted , I hadn't seen her entry...Sorry, P.B. :P
Nevermind here they are as Edgon good thing they were transcribed as Edgars elsewhere http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SplitView.jsp?id=27218
Father is George occ. Ship carpenter b.Scotland I see Margaret must be Margaret Jane or reverse
( parents often use their middle names to avoid confusion with a namesake which always makes me wonder, why bother, then?) added* See more in reply 40
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Xaviers household in 1861
xavier 30
angele 30
justine 12
ortence 10
kitty 8
maximin 6
amei 4
1871
Xavier 48
Angele 38
justine 22
artance 19
chantice 17
maximi 14
amey 11
Dalomie 9
Charlotte 7
euginine 5
mary ann 5
so is Chantice and Kitty the same as Theotice
Barry
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When you look at the actual image I am sure few of these match the actual names of the person, as husband is Exavier the wife is Anshel some other names not matching your transcription names are "Chentice" Artans, Maxim, Solomof, Charlot, Euginney
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1871/001101-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=874282&interval=20&i=jpg
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C and T can be mistaken in handwriting, but that person seemed to have the right lean as other capital "Ls" are fine...The French pronunciation may have foiled "Theotise"
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Maximum may have died a year after the 1871 census...( submission,parents Xavier Poulin/Paulin & Angele FRIGAULT) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/S5X1-GGQ Sad situation for this young family
Philodrome Larocque m.(1) 3 Sept 1883 Salomee Paulin (Sister of Charlotte-Sara, parents Xavier Paulin and Angèle Frigault) at Lamèques,N.B
Adolphe Larocque m. 24 June 1888 Charlotte-Sara Paulin (Sister to Salomée. , parents Xavier Paulin and Angèle Frigault) at Lamèques, N.B.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~louislarocque/frank67.htm
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Found Margaret in the 1841 census in Kirkcudbrightshire, Scotland
James Edgar 40
Margaret 40
Isan 12 ( could that be Ann?)
Janet 9
Margaret 6
Jane 3
gjil
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Forgot to add more to census 1852 Ontario ( Not sure if same family...ages off)
George Edg__ occ. Ship carpenter age 36 b. Scotland Presbyterian Port Hamilton
Jane Ireland age 33
Margaret 8 b. New Brunswick 8 F
Jane W. 6 "
also sons b "Canada" maybe Ontario ?
William M. 4 James J 1
May have gotten way off base with this one...There are too many holes in the census to be correct, but will leave it until we prove the father...
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In 1861 Xavier and Angele and family are Lodgers in the household of an Aimee and Angele Frigot (pronounciation would match Frigau and Frigault). Suspect these may be Angele's parents?
PB
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Here is some info on Angele's family
http://trees.ancestry.ca/tree/21008578/person/1013630658/?o_cvc=Image:SavedPublic:PersonPage
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Good one P.B. I guess the poster is saying they already knew a lot of this...Not all of us have access to the site though... I am probably way off with that census in Ontario...
Janette living with sister Margaret Johnson ( married Thomas) and family in 1871 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0rz4/ http://www.rootschat.com/links/0rz5/
see lots of children for that couple but no marriage, and Janet doesn't seem to marry, so other than names and locale have not proven these are yours either...
adding that Jane/Janet are interchangeable
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So sorry about the link I thought you were able to access it..I will try to copy it and paste the info here.
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the link is to a tree on Ancestry owned by a member of the Robichaud family which links to Cindy's family.
Did you get the email Cindy with the baptisms on it?
Thanks to several of us you may have discovered a lot more about your family.
Takes a lot of man hours to research doesnt it.
Barry
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Yes I did,
Thank you so much Barry, I am very appreciative.
I never would have gotten this far without all the help from everyone involved.
So many twists and turns for sure, which made me question if i was searching for the right person.
You all have gone above and beyond to help me out.
According to my 18 yr old son I should have paid more attention in history class..lol
Again Thank you so much :)
Cindy
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Not a lot of Janet Edgars in Northesk ...So in case she married late in life ..but can't seem to see her later to follow up http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/NewspaperVitalStats/Details.aspx?culture=en-CA&guid=6DFDE4B4-666F-4277-BF61-9A561E4420EC
adding, forgot this was being done... http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/LibraryIndex.jsp?surname=Edgar
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/LibraryIndex.jsp?itemid=111
adding:
This would coincide with the find by gjil reply #39 but could just be coincidence as James is a popular name... http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/NewspaperVitalStats/Details.aspx?culture=en-CA&guid=898da0e6-31a6-4640-9dab-2f5f19c9d3fc but we'd need to find more proof.
James did have a daughter Jane...but don't see the actual marriage http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/NewspaperVitalStats/Details.aspx?culture=en-CA&guid=2ae54ed7-9ce2-4687-aa86-5f04c754e0ec
but just found that this fellow also had a son Andrew & don't think there was .... http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/NewspaperVitalStats/Details.aspx?culture=en-CA&guid=810fcf37-dcd5-4055-9a45-f9b345889f0a
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I know this hasn't directly answered a lot of questions, but little pieces can make a puzzle come together...
There were Edgars on the Island as.....
An extracted IGI file Betty Edgar had a child Louisa Lerretta out of wedlock, 1852 St.John Barbadoes https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XLG4-7M9
a submission https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/9QKS-TTN
adding another Edgar from West Indies, Bermuda...(so nevermind, I need to return to school as well)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XSF4-HCR
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I have somewhere a photograph of Emma Smith from Shippegan New Brunswick. I will try to post it in a couple of days.
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That would be fantastic!
I'm still going around in circles as far as the Ann Edger and her family are concerned..will keep looking :)
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An interesting piece on the Edgars of the West Indies, which won't help you at all right now, but you'll want to read & keep it in case your Edgars were descended from earlier merchants or residents of the Islands http://www.oocities.org/edgarhistory/
The very bottom 2 mention Barbados http://www.edgargen.ca/EDGARNEWS_60.pdf
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Thanks,
Very interesting read indeed, thank you so much for your help :)
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Here is a response to a post that I had made to genforum.
1841 Census
1841 census transcription details for: Creetown, St John's Street, Kirkmabreck
Print Close National Archive Reference:
RG number:
Piece: 873
Book/Folio: 8
Page: 7
Reg. District:
Sub District:
Parish: Kirkmabreck
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Creetown, St John's Street, Kirkmabreck
County: Kirkcudbrightshire
Name Relation Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
EDGAR, James M 40 1801 Cooper Scotland
EDGAR, Margaret F 40 1801 Scotland
EDGAR, William M 15 1826 Scotland
EDGAR, Joan F 12 1829 Kirkcudbrightshire
EDGAR, Janet F 9 1832 Kirkcudbrightshire
EDGAR, Margaret F 6 1835 Kirkcudbrightshire
EDGAR, Jane F 3 1838 Kirkcudbrightshire
~~~~~~~~
© brightsolid online publishing ltd
======================
1851 Census
1851 census transcription details for: 38, St Johns Street, Kirkmabreck, Creetown
Print Close National Archive Reference:
RG number:
Piece: 873
Folio: 15
Page: 19
Reg. District:
Sub District:
Parish: Kirkmabreck
Enum. District: 5
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 38, St Johns Street, Kirkmabreck, Creetown
County: Kirkcudbrightshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
EDGAR, James Head Married M 50 1801 Master Cooper
Tinwald, Dumfriesshire
EDGAR, Margaret Wife Married F 53 1798 Cooper's Wife
Crawford, Lanarkshire
MCIVERS, Marion Daughter Widow F 31 1820 Coopers Daughter
Languhir, Dumfries
EDGAR, Joan Daughter Unmarried F 22 1829 Coopers Daughter
Kirkmabreck, Kirkcudbright
EDGAR, Jannet Daughter Unmarried F 19 1832 Coopers Daughter
Kirkmabreck, Kirkcudbright
EDGAR, Margaret Daughter Unmarried F 16 1835 Coopers Daughter
Kirkmabreck, Kirkcudbright
EDGAR, Jane Daughter Unmarried F 14 1837 Coopers Daughter
Kirkmabreck, Kirkcudbright
HARRIS, James Grand Son M 1 1850 Grand Son
Kirkmabreck, Kirkcudbright
~~~~~~~~
© Reproduced courtesy of The National Archives, London, England
======================
1861 Census
1861 census transcription details for: Silver Street, Kirkmabreck, Creetown
Print Close National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09
Piece: 873
Folio: 0
Page: 1
Reg. District: Kirkmabreck
Sub District:
Parish: Kirkmabreck
Enum. District: 6
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Silver Street, Kirkmabreck, Creetown
County: Kirkcudbrightshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
EDGAR, James Head Married M 59 1802 Cooper
Tinwald, Dumfriesshire
EDGAR, Margaret Wife Married F 56 1805
Crawford, Lanarkshire
EDGAR, Margaret Daughter Unmarried F 25 1836 Muslin Sewer
Creetown, Kirkcudbrightshire
HARRIS, James Grand Son M 11 1850 Road Lab
Creetown, Kirkcudbrightshire
SHARP, William Grand Son M 6 1855 Scholar
Creetown, Kirkcudbrightshire
MCEVOY, James Grand Son M 1 1860
Creetown, Kirkcudbrightshire
~~~~~~~~
© brightsolid online publishing ltd
Hoping this is the Edgar info I'm looking for.
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Don't hang your hat on that family as you need to check a lot of things first...You need to look for marriages and beyond that...
Being that the wife and a few children were in the Canada 1861 you'd have to look at the 2 dates of the census to see if they could be on two at once? then prove they were no longer in Scotland, ie next census......Myself, I think you'll have a wee bit of a problem just for the fact that there are no Anns listed in that family?
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That's exactly where I'm having problems, making the connection with Ann and her family..it's like I'm missing a generation.. ..just wish there was an answer for it to make sense...like where and how and who..sounds simple enough..lol
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Cindy Paquet, I just joined rootschat so that I can message you. I am a descendant of Emma Smith (daughter of Reuben Smith and Theotiste Paulin). As I write this it is April 25, 2020. I know this thread has gone stale but I'm hoping you will see this.
I tried to send you a private message but it appears I cannot - probably because my account is so new. I've been researching the Edgar family and the Smith family. I would love to be able to share what I've found with you. I have it all in a PDF document that I can share with you.