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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: KarenM on Sunday 29 May 05 18:37 BST (UK)
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Can anyone tell me where Sundays Well is?
The address I have on a birth certificate is
5 Convent Place, Sundays Well, Co. Cork
Thanks
Karen
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hi Karen, When driving westwards out of Cork City ...youll pass UCC on the left....... another 400-600 metres take a right over the river then working back in to the city is Sunday's well.
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Sundays Well is a lovely, old and refined area of Cork City. It is, as someone else noted, on the Western side of the city and is a beautiful spot. I remember many a sunny day spent walking there. The houses are elegant and many lead down to the river and have large gardens. The area is named after a well which existed in living memory- Tobar Ri an Domhnaigh, in Gaelic- the well of the King of Sunday. Convent Walk is a very nice place indeed.
Ceallachain
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Thanks Ceallachain for the information.
What kind of place would be at 5 Convent? Is there a hospital or something? Her husband has a different address on the birth certificate. I'm just curious as to why they wouldn't be living at the same place.
Thanks
Karen
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Karen, Hi!
There used to be a very large Convent in Sundays Well, which is itself quite a small area, (and I would imagine that this is the Convent the streetname refers to) named "The Good Shepherd Convent". I say "used to be" because it ceased to be a convent some years ago and then was burnt to the ground shortly afterwards, the spot now being occupied, I think, by apartments, although I am going on memory. I knew the convent well- it was very large indeed, had been around many, many years and was run by the Good Shepherd Nuns. Its history goes well back into the 1800s. It was basically an institution and housed a large number of women who had either mental problems or were what was then regarded as being 'fallen' ie pregnant outside of marriage. The women would work within the convent, and I am almost 100% sure that a Magdalen Laundry was run there. I was in there in the early 1980s on a visit, but my memories of the place are vague. I do remember it being a very busy place, with a lot of work going on. One notable and famous inhabitant in the early 1900s was a little girl known as 'Little Nellie of Holy God', a child noted for her holiness. She died at a very young age and her grave is in the grounds and is beloved of older Corkonians. For many years you could visit her room in the convent.
I am not in Cork at the mo, but was there last week and will be again in a month or so from now. There are Convent Places in other areas of Cork, which is something to bear in mind, two of them not a million miles from Sundays Well. In fact, the more accurate name for what is colloquially known as Convent Place in Sundays Well, is actually probably Convent Avenue. When I am next in Cork, I can try to search out the house for you and establish the streetname with more accuracy. I spend a lot of time around Sundays Well anyway.
Ceallachain
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Just an addendum to my last post. It is possible, I suppose, that this lady had been institutionalised for one reason or another- hence the two different addresses. The Convent was a large complex, so the number '5' might refer to an address in the residential part of that complex. People might be institutionalised there for any number of reasons, including post-natal depression etc. Where was the other address? It is likely that the archives centre in Cork might have a record of those who were admitted to the Convent. What year are we talking about- 1901 or 1911?
Ceallachain
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Hi Ceallachain,
Thanks for the information. Very interesting! This is what I know, via birth and marriage certificate.
Susan Dawkins and Thomas R. Shorter marriage certificate
Dated 2nd July, 1907. Residence at the time of marriage is Tullaheen Whitegate Co. Cork.
John William Shorter
Date & Place of Birth: 10th November, 1907
5 Convent Place, Sundays Well
Name & Surname and Dwelling Place of Father:
Thomas Reuben Shorter, Lisselan, Clonakilty
Name & Surname of Mother
Susan Shorter, formerly Dawkins
Rank of Father: Butler
Signature & Residence of Informant
Susan Shorter, mother, 5 Convent Place, Sundays Well
So, we can see that she was pregnant when they got married. By 1909 they were in England when my gr-uncle Ted was born and then in 1910, they came to Canada.
Interesting about Little Nellie, my grandmother, Susan & Thomas's first daughter, her name is Ellen, but they called her Nellie.
Thanks so much for all your help and information.
Karen
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Mmm- Yes, then. She had more than likely been admittted to the Convent until the birth. It would certainly not have been a pleasant place to be, as often the women were treated less than sympathetically. However, the fact that she married during the pregnancy would mean that he baby would not have been taken from her, as would normally have happened in such circumstances.
She travelled quite a way from Whitegate to Cork, but I suppose that the Good Shepherd Convent would have been the nearest place for her. Clonakilty is a beautiful area-- now very much a gourmet paradise!
The 'Reuben' in Thomas's name interests me.
Ceallachain
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Wow, thanks for the information!! This is fantastic!
So, once the baby was born, she was allowed to leave? Do you think there would be records of her admittance and if so, how would I go about getting them?
Reuben interests me as well. Where would it come from? His parents are plain names, John and Mary. His siblings as well, just your regular, John, William, Jane and Mary.
Not sure what to make of Reuben. Any thoughts? He was from Surrey, England.
Karen
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The fact that the father of the baby stood by her, as it were, would have gone down well. Any records which have to do with Institutions and anything to do with the health board are normally, as far as I know, kept by the Cork Archives Institute, which is in Christchurch, South Main St, Cork City- Tel 0214277809- but they would not look them up for you. If they have the records, and you will need to phone to find out, then you wil either have to look at them yourself or try to get a researcher to do so on your behalf. Being a Convent and a Catholic Institution, there is a possibility that the archive institute might not have the records, but you could contact the Diocese of Cork and Ross (they have a website) or, perhaps, the Good Shepherd Order itself, if it still runs a convent in Cork or elsewhere in Ireland.
Of course we are assuming that the Convent was indeed her place of residence, but it seems likely on the balance of probabilities that it was, especially if she was pregnant before marriage- a very big issue indeed in those days. The Convent was also an orphanage and the Cork playwright, Frank O'Connor has written a harrowing and very moving account of his mother's upbringing there in a short story entitled "Mother". If you can get this story, it will give you a great many details of life in the Convent and it paints a wonderul pen picture of the area around it, an area I know very well and love very deeply. It is a magical area, full of memories and stories for me, and I love to go there and walk its streets and lanes. The story would also give you a good idea of the kind of life the young child born to your family in that Convent likely escaped, owing to that father playing his part.
The Reuben immediately makes one think of Jewish roots, but it is also a name used in Protestant circles. When I first read the names of your ancestors, they struck my Cork eye as having much more of a Protestant than a Catholic look about them- but that is just instinct more than anything else. I may be wrong. Growing up in strongly Catholic Cork, where Protestants were very thin on the ground indeed, one was always immediately aware of Protestant sounding names! But that would not fit in with the possibility of your ancestor being in that Convent.
Ceallachain
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Hi,
I will check out the Cork Archives.
Your Cork eye is good! That line was not catholic. They were anglican. Does that mean she would not have went there then?
Thanks so much
Karen
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It now opens up a doubt in my mind re the Convent, I have to say, but it is not impossible, just unlikley, that a Protestant would be placed in a Catholic Convent- especially at that time, when the twain just did not meet! However, if nothing else was available...... However, I am inclined to think that Protestants would have had their own institutions. Nevertheless, the first line of enquiry re the convent makes most sense! There is another possibility, though.
There are other Convent Places in Cork, but your documents definitely say Sundays Well. Sundays Well itself, however, was a very Protestant area, with many big houses which served the wealthier and merchant classes of Cork. It also has what used to be a large Protestant Church a stone's throw from the Convent. Might it be possible that in her state she went to stay not at the Convent but with Protestant friends of the family to hide away until her time came, hence the different addresses? This kind of thing was also very common amongst the wealthier classes who certainly would not end up in an Institution like the Good Shepherd Convent, which would mainly have been for the much poorer classes. Sundays Well itself even today is a very elegant area, with houses fetching a small fortune. It was very much a wealthy enclave in the late 1800s, early 1900s and populated by the more well-to-do professional classes, particularly Protestants.
I know that we are only surmising right now, but either of these two scenarios looks feasible to me, but if they were Protestants, then the second looks most likely.
Ceallachain
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I guess what I need to find out is what was at 5 Convent Place, such as a private residence or a convent. I believe I was told she was a maid. Her father is listed as a farmer on her marriage certificate, so I don't believe she came from money.
Her brother and sister are the witnessess on the marriage certificate, if that means anything.
Karen
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Being a farmer in Ireland does not necessarily mean being unmonied, believe me, especially a Protestant farmer! :-) Why not check out the 1901 and 1911 census returns for that address and get a handle on who was there? When I go to Cork in July, I will walk up to Sundays Well to see if anything remains of no.5. Do you live in Ireland yourself or in the UK?
Ceallachain
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Hi Ceallachain
I live in Ontario, Canada. I will put out a request for the 1901 & 1911 census on the board and see if anyone has the information. I thought I would call the Library in Cork today as well to see if they have any old directories that may help as well. Thanks very much for the offer, that would be great if could do that next time you are in that area.
Karen
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No prob. The library might indeed have some info. There are also postal directories available, I believe, but I do not know for which years. I'll try to take a few photos while I am there too, of Sundays Well as a whole and of the house if I find it. Have you ever been to Cork?
Ceallachain
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Thanks, that would be great.
No, I have never set foot on Irish soil. One day soon I hope to be able to come over and see it for myself. I was planning on coming this past spring, but I had a 3rd baby instead, so that put my trip on hold for a bit. Well worth it though!
I phoned the library today and I have to call the fellow back tommorrow. He was going to look in the directories for me. I gave him the address and what I was looking for. I will let you know what I find out.
Karen
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http://homepage.tinet.ie/~aocoleman/index.html
you may find the above web site helpful
Best wishes
Mo
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Well I just talked to the fellow at the library and he said in 1901 there was no Convent Place, Sundays Well. There was a Convent Avenue, but no #5 and that was that.
Not sure what to do now. It's quite frustrating being over here trying to figure out geography in another country. My mother's family has been at the same address for over 100 years. My sister still lives next door and my husband is the 7th generation born in his mother's house. You have a Town or City and then a County, Province and Country. Quite simple really.
Karen
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Convent Ave is often colloquially known as Convent Place, but not officially known as Convent Place. There are other Convent Places in Cork, at least two that I know of, one near Sundays Well. However, it is also possible that it is a simple transcription error from the time (believe me, I have seen enough errors on Irish Death, Birth and Marriage certificates!) and that it was Convent Avenue which was the place in question, but the absence of a number five is problematic for this theory. It is possible also that the transcription error refers to Sundays Well- a Cok person writing the certificate may easily have confused Convent Place with Convent Avenue- Cork is a small place and everyone knows everywhere. I am just surmising, but a look at the other two Convent Places should be undertaken, I think. I will look them up tomorrow morning on a map for exact locations and will try to scan some of the map to send to you.
Ceallachain
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Thanks so much Ceallachain.
Here's a copy of the birth cert. for you to see.
Karen
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Received this message on the "rootsweb" message board today.
"I went to the Cork County Library and found that there were directories for 1906 and 1909 but not the years in between. In 1909 there was an F. W. Howard at No. 5 Convent Avenue, Sundays Well, Cork. This was in Guys and Co. Ltd 1909 Directory. I went to the 1906 Directory and found that the street had been called City Jail Rd. in 1906. Anyway, there was an F. W. Howard listed for No. 5 so you could presume that the same person was there in 1907"
Now, I need to figure out who FW Howard is, never ending!
Karen
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Well, at least this is a very positive step. F W Howard? Again, I will ask around when I am there. If F W Howard were there in 1911, then the census for that time would list his occupation and the others in his household. Even getting this info, especially his occupation, would be a big help. I can try to look up the 1911 census myself, but it woud not be until August, as I am only in Cork for a short few days at the end of July and can use that time to get to Sundays Well, take photographs, speak to a few people. Then I leave and return a week later for 8 days, which would give me much more time. Unless someone on the board is able to look up the info sooner. But, at least we now know that there was a No 5 at Convent Ave and hopefully still is! Will try to scan in some parts of a map tomorrow, if I can muster the technical expertise!
Ceallachain
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Good Lord Karen I am absolutely fascinated by your conversation with Ceallachain (Irish for Callaghan) I came across this when trying to trace my own family of O' Callaghan. Coincidentally I live in Sunday's Well! Yes Convent place exists, although who now lives at no 5 now I don't know. However, I do have something for you I hope.
There are a set of directories called Guy's Directories , which should contain the information you need. They are available at the Cork City library and the contact name there is Kieran Burke - he knows my husband well so feel free to use his name (Antoin O' Callaghan) to expedite matters, if it helps.
Tel: 00 353 21 4924 900 or e-mail: libraries@corkcity.ie
Alternatively try ringing Sunday's Well Post Office at 00 353 21 430 3854 to enquire about the address. It is actually at the gates of the Good Shepherd Convent that Ceallachain mentioned...how exciting for you!!!
Good luck,
Sandra
Sunday's Well.
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Hi Karen I can look up that census for you give me a few weeks to get around to it.
Also just so you know that girls baptised Ellen in Ireland were usually called Nellie.
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Hello Sandra and Gerald,
Since this posting I have obtained pictures of the house at 5 Convent place. Many thanks for the offer of the census Gerald, but someone was kind enough to look it up for me and send it to me.
Having said that, I still have no idea where my gr grandmother, Susan Dawkins was in 1901. By 1911 she is married and living in Ontario, Canada.
I do have the 1901 and 1911 Census for my gr gr grandparents in TullaheenMore and she is not with them.
A lady was very kind enough to go to the house in TullaheenMore which is standing, but in ruins and take pictures for me.
Sandra, one day I hope to visit Sunday's Well myself.
Karen
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Hi Karen....read your enquiry about Sundays Well & a reply from Ceallachain - quote - the women would work within this convent & that a Magdalen Laundry was run there. End of quote.
Thought you may be interested in the following quote - Magdalen Asylums were institutions for so called "fallen" women, most of them operated by different orders of the Roman Catholic Church. In most ayslums the inmates were required to undertake hard physical labour such as laundry work. In Ireland such asylums were known as Magdalene Laundries. It has been estimated that 30,000 women were admitted during the 150 year history of these institutions, often against their will. The last Magdalene Asylum in Ireland closed on Sept. 25, 1996.
Can you believe that these kind of things went on until 1996!
Also if you would like to read The Magdalene Story here is the website - http://www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html
Quite an interesting story & how sad!
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I can quite clearly remember visiting the Magdalene Laundry at the Good Shepherd Convent in Sunday's Well in the early 1980s, and another very large Magdalene laundry was still in existence in the mid-1980s about two miles from that one, in another convent known as St Vincent's, near the North Cathedral. Sandra will know the area well!
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That's great Karen - good luck with it all and be sure to let me know if you're coming to Sunday's Well - we'll have a coffee in 'Annie's', which is right on the corner of where you're going!
Sandra