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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: John McCrea on Saturday 20 October 12 18:51 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I am not sure if I have posted about this person again on here, but it has been a problem of mine for sometime now.
J.H it is said in family "takings" took her own life at Larne Harbour, but I didn't know a date so it was hard to try and find any newspaper articles.
I have since found out that she was duried on The 19th July 1924 aged 35 years (Larne Cemetery in a Haveron family grave)
With this new information I ordered her death certificate from Belfast taking off a few days for the death date to be about 17th July, Today I received a letter back from Belfast saying that no certificate can be found!!
Can anybody help as to where I can go now?
would I be able to get any sort of coroners report on her death?
If so, where do I obtain this?
Larne Library have not be able to find anything about a strange death with the dates given, so this is becoming even a bigger problem!!
Please HELP.
John
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There are a few things which don't seem to add up here. After doing a Google search I found you have posted on quite a few boards looking for Josephine and the details are not always the same.
Here is Josephine Haveron with her family in the 1911 census-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Larne/Glynn_Road/195438
Original image shows her name properly spelt as Josephine-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001560494/
Therefore, if she was 17 in 1911 she was born c1894 whilst according to your post here she was 35 in 1924 making her born c1889.
If she drowned, the body wasn't found straight away and there was an inquest (as there would have been) then she might have actually died a while before the date of burial.
What years were searched for a death certificate?
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hi aghadowey,
Thanks for your reply, I did say that I could not remember if I have posted about Josephine Haveron before or not, as it has been an on going problem for many a year!! I also understand that some dates don't seem to match up, but from replies and emails most peolpe say that it is the "Norm" for people of that time to either lie or just guess about years of birth etc.
This is the reply that I got from Larne Council.
Hi John
Received you email from Jackie regarding tracing graves in Larne Cemetery and found the following information
GRAVE PLOT 2C 815 - LARNE CEMETERY
Interments
Agnes Haveron buried 06 April 1928, aged 23 years
Josephine Haveron buried 19 July 1924, aged 35 years
Sarah Haveron buried 4 July 1935, aged 65 years
Patrick Haveron buried 23 November 1940, aged 70 years
All resided at 52 Glynn Road, Larne.
Hopefully this is the right family, it seems to tie in with the information Jackie found .
Hope this helps
Regards
Margaret Duffin
Cemeteries Administrator
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... or maybe she was never found.
Is there anything to be read in to the sequencing of those dates?
'Twould be interesting to understand the exact context from the register more.
Perhaps she went missing on 19-JUL-1924, but was not formally declared dead till 10 years later.
[I've seen this 10 year delay in another context.]
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There was huge social stigma associated with suicide, so it is unlikely to have been reported in the press. Such was regarded as a "shame" that the family would want to cope with privately.
Such an act was (?and still is) treated legally as a crime.
[Motivated originally by religious reasons, being regarded as an insult to your Creator - you are meant to get on with doing good deeds within the given Earthly Paradise.]
Suicides used to be buried in unconsecrated ground away from the church.
[e.g. there was one at the cross-roads at Muckamore.]
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Guess PRONI would have to be the starting point for the coroner's records.
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Josephine lost her younger brother James in Belgum aged only 16 in 1915 during WWI.
www.cwgc.org
Perhaps that event, or the loss of her own sweetheart, proved too much to bear.
[Also, sister Agnes who died young may have been a long invalid.]
Some other HAVERON entries in there might help you to sort things out.
e.g. Where were John (9) and Josephine (7) in 1901?
[When the rest of the family appear to be in Sheriffsland, Kilwaughter.
Were they "abroad" with relatives in Newcastle?]
N.B. They declared themselves as holding to the Pb religion then.
Perhaps Josephine changed her name on being formally confirmed in to CoI?
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Hope that those thoughts help you a bit.
Capt. Jock
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TheWhuttle
Very many thanks for your detailed reply, and I will surely look into all of the matters that you suggested with regards Josephine Haveron.
The brother of JH, James, who was killed in WW1 was, and is correct.
After talking to what I think is the last remaining link to the Haverons in Larne, and who is Patrick and Sarah's grand child, he can't remember that much of the old times. but he has been a mind of information with other family dates etc...
But for the last few years Josephine has been a very big problem of mine, tomorrow I do plan on telephoning Belfast to ask about other avenues that I can follow with regards this matter, I also need to talk to Larne Council, to see if they can find out anymore information about JH.
Thank you once again for your help.
John McCrea
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deleted
I was going to thank you for your help, but you seem to have "Deleted" your message...... Hay Hoo!!
John McCrea
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I deleted it because it seemed no longer relevant, as it now seems her name was indeed Josephine and the census confirms it :)
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Please do not delete posts on a thread as it tends to make nonsense of later replies- and the details originally posted might help someone else.
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As I said the information was irrelevant and incorrect- that was why it was deleted. I stand by that.
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I ordered her death certificate from Belfast taking off a few days for the death date to be about 17th July, Today I received a letter back from Belfast saying that no certificate can be found!!
Can anybody help as to where I can go now?
would I be able to get any sort of coroners report on her death?
If so, where do I obtain this?
You have obviously been in touch with GRONI in Belfast. Their fee for a certificate on a known date and place is £14. As I understand it, if that date is inaccurate for any reason, they don’t search for the correct date. They simply write to say there was no record found. You might therefore have got a no certificate found response for that reason. If you want them to search around to find the correct date, then according to their website, it costs £6 for each 5 year period. Assuming you haven’t already done so, you might want to consider asking for that service?
PRONI hold papers on inquests. According to their e-catalogue, those for Co Antrim for the years 1891 – 1981 appear to be held in a series with a filing ref: ANT/6/1. There also appear to have been inquests in Carrickfergus which had a separate reference series. You would need to check out the PRONI records to see which is the right series. Some of the files are marked as closed to the public.
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If she drown in Larne, her body could of washed up anywhere along the coast, my great uncle drown in Belfast Lough, but his body washed up in Portavogie, his death was registered in Newtonards.
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Good point, Maura. I searched Scotland's People death index to see if her body might have been found in Scotland but no results for a Josephine Haveron (any date).
I think it would be useful to contact the cemetery again and ask if the entry for Josephine appears chronologically in their register.
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I've seen "maritime" deaths collated together at the end of a quarter's worth of entries. So outwith the normal strict date sequence in the register.
This observation is from 1887 in the (old-UK) Dublin registers.
Not sure if it would apply to 1924 in the (new-UK) Belfast registers.
Capt. Jock
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TheWhuttle
Many thanks for your reply, I did today telephone Belfast Reg office and they confirm that her death was not registered, as they searched again as I was talking to them.
I asked about a coroners report? so I phoned the coroners office only to be told that they don't hold records going back that far. I ended up at PRONI, and now have put a request in for a coroners report of her death if one is available.
John
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Good point, Maura. I searched Scotland's People death index to see if her body might have been found in Scotland but no results for a Josephine Haveron (any date).
I think it would be useful to contact the cemetery again and ask if the entry for Josephine appears chronologically in their register.
aghadowey,
Thanks once again for your help.
You say that it may be useful to contact the cemetery again? I did not get this information from the cemetery itself, but the Council Office, would they be able to help me with what you suggest?
John.
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Good point, Maura. I searched Scotland's People death index to see if her body might have been found in Scotland but no results for a Josephine Haveron (any date).
I think it would be useful to contact the cemetery again and ask if the entry for Josephine appears chronologically in their register.
Not sure if I posted a reply to this "Wrong"? to aghadowey I can only say sorry.... it's late!!!!
I did however forget to mention that I too have searched Scotlandspeople for her death, only because one for her brothers ended up in Greenock where he died in 1963. that's another problem as I can't find a marriage for him & his wife Isabella!! but I will sort that out later.
John.
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When I suggested contacting the cemetery again I meant the Council offices that have the cemetery records. When you got in touch again did you ask them to confirm if the records they previous gave were in chronological order?
The usual place to find details of suicides in in the newspaper- the public are always fascinated by such events (as long as it's not their family) and often there would have been a full report in the paper at the time.
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When I suggested contacting the cemetery again I meant the Council offices that have the cemetery records. When you got in touch again did you ask them to confirm if the records they previous gave were in chronological order?
The usual place to find details of suicides in in the newspaper- the public are always fascinated by such events (as long as it's not their family) and often there would have been a full report in the paper at the time.
Hi aghadowey,
As yet I have not contacted Larne Council to ask if they are in chronological order, but I will do soon.
As for newspapers, I have been in touch with Larne Library and she searched two weeks either side of the date that I gave her, but she could not find any thing, she did however suggest that it may have been in another newspaper, but I can't remember what one at the moment, I know she searches the Larne Times.
John.
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It's unlikely that the family would have put a death notice in the local newspaper but it a report about her being missing , body being found and/or inquest details that you would expect to find published.
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In my tree I may have a Sarah HAVERON m. Robert BARKLIE of Larne & Inver. (Both born around 1790-ish). I'm curious if the Patrick Haveron in Sheriff's Land in 1900 (and your Josephine who shows up in his household in 1910) might be related. It's a curiosity as I had kin living at #6 Sheriff's Land 33 years before your Patrick resided there in 1901. We know from a Griffith's Valuation entry that Eliza McBride Curran was a resident there until about 1868. Her son Samuel Curran, was married to a Sarah Brickley. A researcher with whom I worked last year has hypothesized that Sarah was actually a Barklie and not a Brickley and that she may have been one of the children of Robert Barklie and Sarah Haveron, born 12 Nov 1823. The baptisms of several other children of Robert and Sarah were also registered in the Inver Church of Ireland records. (I hope this is not too convoluted...I'm happy to clarify).
I look forward to sharing info with you.
Regards,
Monica
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I am looking for a Josephine Haveron born Larne about 1922. Her mother was Christine who died when Josephine was born. Her father was called Joe and he worked at the weaving factory. Josephine had a aunt Ellie/Ella who had 13 children, two died. The youngest was called Jacqueline, there was an Adam, Bernard and Jack. Ellie/Ella married a Jack Bone/Bowen(not sure if that is spelt correctly) Josephine also had an aunt Josephine who died when young. She may be related to this Josephine. Her grandmother was called Sarah who brought her up. Sarah was found dead on the beach in Larne.
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I am looking for a Josephine Haveron born Larne about 1922. Her mother was Christine who died when Josephine was born. Her father was called Joe and he worked at the weaving factory. Josephine had a aunt Ellie/Ella who had 13 children, two died. The youngest was called Jacqueline, there was an Adam, Bernard and Jack. Ellie/Ella married a Jack Bone/Bowen(not sure if that is spelt correctly) Josephine also had an aunt Josephine who died when young. She may be related to this Josephine. Her grandmother was called Sarah who brought her up. Sarah was found dead on the beach in Larne.
Birth for a Joseph Haveron (parents William & Sarah) in 1886- could this be the 'Joe' in your post?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02596/1958907.pdf
Or is the grandmother Sarah the mother of Christine?
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Ellie/Ella married a Jack Bone/Bowen(not sure if that is spelt correctly)
Larne Times has a November 1940 Death Notice for a Patrick Haveron of 52 Glynn Road, husband of the late Sarah Haveron (she died 2nd July. 1935). The notice was put in by his daughter and son-in-law, Ella and Jack Bowen of 6 Queen Street.
Another memorial notice for this couple mentions their son, Ernie and a daughter-in-law, of same address.
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There was an inquest held in 1935 for a Sarah Haveron of Glynn Road, who apparently took ill and died at the beach. This was reported in the Larne Times of 6 July.
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Brilliant finds- dates make all the difference in finding correct family!
1911 census- Patrick & Sarah Haveron with 9 children- married 19 years but 2 children died before 1911:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Larne/Glynn_Road/195438
1901 census rather puzzling as 2 eldest children not listed:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Kilwaughter/Sherriffsland/995211
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Getting a bit stranger :-\
Son Thomas Alexander George Charles born 1907 (age 4 in 1911) parents Patrick Haveron & Sara Hamill-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01680/1668284.pdf
but Patrick & Sarah didn't marry until 1900!
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1900/10333/5761916.pdf
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crossed post so deleted
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Robert born 1900-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01989/1765627.pdf
Samuel born 1902-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01893/1735664.pdf
Agnes born 1904-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1904/01832/1715603.pdf
Martha born 1906-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01744/1688686.pdf
Mary Jane born 1909-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01606/1644822.pdf
Leah born 1910-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01543/1624804.pdf
Adam Wilkinson born 1913-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1913/01466/1598103.pdf
Eleanor Hilton[?] born 1915-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01382/1568416.pdf
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Sarah, who had apparently gone to the beach at Islandmagee to collect dulse, was 62, so fits well with her age at 1911.
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Children-
John (c1882)
Josephine (c1884)
William (c1886)
James (c1887)
Robert (1900)
Samuel (1902) died 1903-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05649/4590146.pdf
Agnes/Nancy (1904)
Martha (1906) died 1907-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05524/4548684.pdf
Thomas Alexander George Charles (1907)
Mary Jane (1909)
Leah (1910)
Adam Wilkinson (1913)
Eleanor Hilton[?] (1915)
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Have to be heading, so posting this quote from 1928 Larne Times to remind me to check it further later:
into the circumstances attendant upon the death a young Larne woman named Agnes Haveron, Bank Road, who was rescued from drowning at the Bankheads on the previous day
A Patrick Haveron was noted as her father and she was aged 23.
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Have to be heading, so posting this quote from 1928 Larne Times to remind me to check it further later:
into the circumstances attendant upon the death a young Larne woman named Agnes Haveron, Bank Road, who was rescued from drowning at the Bankheads on the previous day
A Patrick Haveron was noted as her father and she was aged 23.
Fits with Agnes born 1904.
I don't think the 'Haveron' children born before 1900 were children of Patrick & Sarah (or at least not registered as Haveron, etc. and no trace of them yet in 1911)
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I don't think the 'Haveron' children born before 1900 were children of Patrick & Sarah (or at least not registered as Haveron, etc. and no trace of them yet in 1911)
If same Sarah, they look to have just been hers. A John Hamill was born in the workhouse to a Sarah Hamill in 1892. A Josephine Hamill born Pound Street in 1894, to a Sarah Hamill.
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Josephine Hamill (1894)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02243/1844662.pdf
Possible marriage of John Hamill (Glynn Road, no father listed) in 1917 to an Esther Shiels-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09759/5542042.pdf
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Wondering if the Josephine buried as Haveron, actually died as Hamill, and if the story of her death was mixed up with the way Agnes died a few years later. Really heading off this time, so perhaps someone can have a look meantime.
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I am now really confused about the parents of my friends Josephine Haveron born about 1922 Larne. My friend had always assumed her grandmothers name was Christine and the father possibly Joe but remembers a William being mentioned.From the little her mother said about the family. I can find nothing on Josephine with these details. Is this possibly because one was catholic and the other not this she knows to be true. Josephine's grandparents were definitely Patrick and Sarah Haveron as my friend remembers being told her grandmother Sarah died on the beach. She also remembers Glynne road and also visiting Ella Bowen.She believes Josephine's mother died shortly after she was born and was brought up by Patrick and Sarah. Josephine placed a notice in the Larne times after the death of her grandfather giving the names Josie & Leonard of Essex which is correct. I just need to find who was the actual parents of Josephine were but keep drawing blanks. I can find no birth or baptism for Josephine . Is it possible that Josephine was illegitimate and therefore possibly the child of one of the other daughters and the names Christine and Joe are fictitious?
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Have to be heading, so posting this quote from 1928 Larne Times to remind me to check it further later:
into the circumstances attendant upon the death a young Larne woman named Agnes Haveron, Bank Road, who was rescued from drowning at the Bankheads on the previous day
A Patrick Haveron was noted as her father and she was aged 23.
Just to close off on this, a Belfast Newsletter article of 5 April 1928 described a woman walking along the seashore near the Chaine Memorial (at the mouth of Larne Harbour), when she noticed a woman's hat in the grass and a woman struggling in the water a short distance from the shore, with the assistance of 2 men they recovered the woman and applied artificial respiration, but the woman never regained consciousness and died the previous evening to the newspaper article (4 April). The newspaper article also confirmed the identity of the deceased - 23 year old Agnes Haveron of 52 Glynn Road, Larne.
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... I am now really confused about the parents of my friends Josephine Haveron born about 1922 Larne. My friend had always assumed her grandmothers name was Christine and the father possibly Joe but remembers a William being mentioned ... ... ... She believes Josephine's mother died shortly after she was born and was brought up by Patrick and Sarah ...
Some things to consider.
1. (Transcribed as) William Henry Hevron with a date of birth given as 19 January 1897 was baptised in St. MacNissi's RC Church, Larne, on 30 January that year, the parents given as Patrick Hevron and Sarah Hamill, the record annotated to say he was illegitimate. That fits reasonably with the William in the previously posted 1901 and 1911 census returns for Patrick Haveron and Sarah Hamill (reply #25) who married in 1900.
2. William Henry Haveron (labourer) of 52 Glynn Road Larne, son of Patrick Haveron (labourer), married Christina Mahoney of Larne in St. Cedma's Church of Ireland on 6 January 1922, her father was James Mahoney (tailor) and one of the witnesses was Josephine Haveron.
3. Christina Haveron, a married domestic servant of 1 Church Lane, Larne, died of TB on 9 June 1923 with a reported age of 29, the death was registered in Antrim registration district.
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I think this is Josephine's birth 1894- Josephina, mother Sarah Hamill-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02243/1844662.pdf
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I think this is Josephine's birth 1894- Josephina, mother Sarah Hamill-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02243/1844662.pdf
Already posted by you at reply #34.
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Yes, but seems to have been forgotten.
John Hamill born 1892- illegitimate, mother Sarah Hamill-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=620460.27
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... I just need to find who was the actual parents of Josephine were but keep drawing blanks. I can find no birth or baptism for Josephine. Is it possible that Josephine was illegitimate ...?
Not sure where you've been looking, but a birth for 1922 (give or take a year or so) wouldn't be available online from 'official' sources (too recent), the potential parents I've posted above at reply #38 are a starting point to pursue, you might also want to pursue a Josephine Mahoney birth just to cover that angle as well.