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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Edrubava on Monday 15 October 12 04:53 BST (UK)
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Hello all
I've been deliberating as to whether to post this or not, but thought it worth a try. I have read about the difficulties of tracing family members in the London area here on rootschat, so if there is no possibility of finding records, then I hope someone will let me know.
My problem is for death records of several members of the family - from the '61 onwards. I'll just mention one here to see if it is possible to find any trace of her death - Jane Jennis/Gennis b. Ireland around 1808. Is with husband and family around Tower Hamlets up to the '61 but then I can't find any death record or any trace of her ???
Could anyone help?
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None of the family appear on the 1861 census?
Maybe they are back in Ireland?
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Sorry - all the family are together in '61, then husband William and one daughter Martha are together in '71. Some of the other family members have married by then, but two daughters - Betsy/Elizabeth and Francis/Fanny - also disappear. Or I can't find their marriages?
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Hi
There are difficulties in tracing burials in the London area after the closure of the churchyards in central London in the 1850s, but unless the name is very common it should be possible to trace deaths through the General Registry Office civil registration index. With common combinations of names that is more difficult knowing which one is which, as it is in any city area in the country, but obviously compounded by the sheer population size of London.
There is a Jane Gennis and family in Mile End Old Town on the 1841 census HO107 712 Bk1 Folio 37 the spelling switches to Jennis on the 1851 census in St Botolph Aldgate in the City of London HO 107 1524 folio 306
1861 census in Whitechapel the spelling is Gennis RG9 274 folio 201 William, Jane's husband William is a widower in 1871 surname spelt Jennis, still in Whitechapel RG10 526 folio 13 therefore unless Jane died while away visiting you would expect her death to be registered in Whitechapel registration district sometime between the two censuses, but not necessarily in the spelling expected.
There is a Catherine Gennis death registration in 1862. Mix ups do happen at the time of registering deaths between bereaved relatives and the registrar in earlier registrations.
Have you found William's death registration? Is he on the 1881 census RG11 451 folio 66 as Geinees in St George in the East and remarried? There is a daughter Louisa aged 16 but it is possible she is his second wife's daughter? There is a marriage of a William Jennis widower and shoemaker in Clapham in 1872 to Emma Maria Wright widow.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
11th April 1869 St Philip Stepney
George Thomas Maggs 21 Bachelor Wine Cooper 8 John Street John Maggs Deceased Engineer
Frances Jennis 23 Spinster 8 John Street William Jennis Bootmaker
Frances made her mark
Witnesses William Jennis and Jennie Veal
Regards
Valda
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Martha is show as Jennis on 1871?, she had married Rasmus Lawson 1/8/1865 St.Geo in the East and the child appears to be her daughter.
Jennifer
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Many thanks Valda and jennifer c :)
Apologies as I had a senior moment about Frances - I do have her marriage but then she disappears as Frances Maggs.
Thanks Valda for the other info - William (William and Jane's son) married Catherine Donovan and they had a son (William!) who survives (my g grandfather) and two daughters that died as infants - then Catherine herself died in 1865. Hers and her daughters are about the only deaths I can find.
Jane's husband William's death is another that I can't find. He doesn't appear after the '71.
And yes Jennifer, Martha does marry a Rasmus Lawson (mariner) and has a child Jane Lawson, but she is living with her father William in the '71, also Jane, but she is now a Jennis??
Very confused. But with such an uncommon name I would have thought I would be able to find more of the deaths ???
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Hi
Are you sure William senior is not the man I gave the reference for in 1881?
1881 census RG11 451 folio 66
9 Mary Ann Street St George in the East
William Geinees 74 Head Married Bootmaker Cork Ireland
Emma Geinees 55 Wife Married Smithfields Middlesex
Louisa Geinees 16 Daughter Servant St George in the East
Louisa possibly being a stepdaughter and not a daughter - Louisa Wright
1st April 1872 Christ Church Clapham
William Jennis Full Age Widower Shoemaker Clapham William Jennis Captain of Merchant Vessel
Emma Maria Wright Full Age Widow Clapham George Henry Balgue ? clerk
Both signed
Witnesses Chas ? And Annie ?
Emma Maria's first marriage was to Gilbert Wright 11th April 1852 St Botolph without Aldgate. They had a daughter Louisa Sarah baptised at St George in the East in 1865
Emma Maria Jennis' death was registered in London C registration district in December quarter 1891 aged 64
It doesn't help much in trying to find her on the 1891 census.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
1883 June quarter
London C registration district
William Jenness aged 74
Volume 1c Page 36
Regards
Valda
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Hi
4th February 1874 St George in the East
Jacob Nelson Full Age Bachelor Mariner St George's East Nils Nelson ?
Martha Jenness Full Age Widow St George's East William Jenness Bootmaker
Martha made her mark
Witnesses Thomas James and Jemima ?
Regards
Valda
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Hi
5th December 1882 St Mark Victoria Park
George Thomas Wright 29 Bachelor Railway Clerk Bow Gilbert Wright Deceased Commercial Traveller
Francis Jennis 30 Spinster Bow William Jennis Shoemaker
Both signed
Witnesses Hugh and Mary Owen
Frances' age is given as 39 on the 1891 census born St George in the East. RG12 1330 folio 35
Living as husband and wife on the 1881 census RG11 424 folio 33. Frances aged 30. Looks like a bit of age adjusting.
Regards
Valda
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A male is researching William Ginnis 1809 Ireland on GenesReunited.
Jennifer
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Many thanks again! The spelling of 'Geinees' is certainly one I haven't come across, and I thought I'd tried all variants of the name. The William Geinees with Emma Maria and Louisa in '81 is worth investigating - thanks.
I'm pretty sure that the Frances marriage to George Thomas Maggs is correct, even though I can't find her again after her marriage. The other Frances marrying George Thomas Wright - well, unless Frances left her first husband and called herself Jennis again (I think that's what sister Martha does?) - I can't quite see how it fits. Again it's worth investigating though.
I had found the Martha Jenness marrying Jacob Nelson but I still don't know for sure as she should be Martha Lawson? I will look into that again though!
I googled the William Ginnis on GR but don't think it's one of ours as he's in a different area.
The William Jenness death in 1883 is definitely worth paying for the certificate, so thanks again for that.
I'll also look into the witnesses for William and Emma Maria's marriage.
Thanks again to Valda and jennifer c for your help :)
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Hi
Emma Maria' s first husband was Gilbert Wright. They had a son baptised 24th July 1853 at St George in the East called George Thomas Wright. Gilbert was a commercial traveller. These details fit the information given on the marriage of Frances Jennis to George Thomas Wright in 1882.
The William Jenness death registration in 1883 is in London City registration district. Emma Maria's death registration in 1891 is also in London City registration district.
Trees on Ancestry claim William's wife Jane's maiden name was Baker. No evidence is given for this but presumably a birth certificate of one of the children born after the start of civil registration would confirm that.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda :)
I sent for Frances's birth certificate which gave me Jane Baker - but as she (Jane) and William married (presumably) in Ireland I assumed I wouldn't be able to find their marriage. If I could, I could tie in William Jennis's father on the 1872 marriage - said to be a Captain of Merchant Vessel. That seems a long way off a humble shoemaker for a son??
I agree that the Wright marriage of George and Frances fits in. I've been trying to compare signatures of William Gennis - I'm still in that process but not sure if it will tell me anything!
Many thanks
Julie
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Hi
Whether William and Jane married in Ireland or England as their first known child was born circa 1831/2 before civil registration in either country you would be very unlikely to find out anything about either's parentage from the marriage unless the witnesses were related.
Captain of a Merchant Ship in the intervening 60 odd years may have grown from what might originally have been merchant seaman. If English he may or may not have remained in Ireland.
Regards
Valda
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Oh yes - didn't think about the dates, of course I wouldn't find out anything!
I've just re-checked my tree and find the following regarding his and Jane's children:
Betsy/Elizabeth b 1832 - can find on 41 and 51 only - no marriage or death?
William b 1834 m Catherine Donovan, widowed then remarries Emily Myers 1870 - can find in 81 and 91 only - no deaths?
Martha b 1837 m Rasmus Lawson 1865 then possibly remarries Jacob Nelson 1874
Twins John Francis and Maria Elizabeth are quite easy - John marries Jemima Rance 1865 - can only find Jemima living with sister Jane with her children (b 1867 1869 and 1872) - no death or anything on John?
Maria Elizabeth m W H Billingsley 1861 and I can actually follow her all the way through to her death in 1913.
Even to find the death of the William that marries Emily would be good ???
Thanks again
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Hi
1861 census RG9 285 folio 100 William Jennis junior, wife Catherine and two children.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda - I do have them in the 61. They had 2 daughters that died as infants, both named Catherine; one daughter Martha who died at 19; then I know the history of son William (my g grandfather) as he walks to Northants then marries and has children there. Catherine's William marries again and I can find them in 81 and 91 then no trace of either.
I appreciate your help Valda, and I realise that I may never find any of these deaths (not sure why though) ???
Like everyone else's family history, the stories get a bit convoluted as we try to pin them down.
Regards
Julie
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Hi
Breakdown of their marriages, possible but as yet unproven bigamy, illiteracy and an unusual surname the officials did their best with are probably the main reasons some of the family are difficult to follow, John Francis being no different from two of his sisters as far as his marriage was concerned.
John Francis Gennis' death registration was in 1909 March quarter Camberwell registration district volume 1d page 57? He was aged 58.
This may be him in the 1901 census RG13 368 folio 73
26 Shipton Street St George the Martyr Southwark
John Gennis 50 Head Married Boot Machinist Whitechapel London
Mary Gennis 43 Wife Married Brompton London
Thomas Kimble 21 Stepson Boot salesman Soho London
Charles Kimble 18 Stepson Metal Polisher Soho London
Could be Kemble
1891 census RG12 83 folio 118
12 Mills Buildings Knightsbridge Westminster
In the household of George Hemingway and his family
John Gennis 40 Lodger Single Boot Clicker N. K. London
Did wonder even whether Jane's death was registered as Jennings in 1871 in Whitechapel aged 65.
Regards
Valda
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St luke Finsbury 20/2/1865
John Gennis bach Boot closer father William - Shoe maker
Jemima Rance both of Little Arthur Street can not read fathers details?
Witnesses William & Fanny Gennis
Jennifer
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I've had a busy couple of days, so will digest the latest info soon.
Thanks again :)
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Many thanks again Valda and Jennifer - I can't seem to find the time that I want to spend on my elusive lot lately
:(
I looked at the William Jenness death but unfortunately it's a mistranscription - it's actually Jenner (William Jenner of that age traceable) and the name underneath is Jenness.
Now I have the explanation as to why I couldn't find John Francis's death - his age was 10 years out, so whenever I searched and put in his correct birth date I didn't find it. Thank you again. I'll also look into the John and Mary that you detail.
There are still the other things to look at - but I have found previously a William Brock Jennis (no relation apparently) who is in the Royal Navy - so wondered if he's anything to do with the other marriage that you found in 1872 - with father of the groom described as 'Captain of Merchant Vessel' ??? ???
As you say Valda - marriage break ups, illiteracy etc all point to confusion later on :-\
I'll just keep digging and hope for a breakthough one day ::)
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Hi
As I said I have wondered how far the surname can be misspelt as the only near death registration for Jane in Whitechapel registration district is Jane Jennings March quarter 1871 aged 65.
That might account for why the registrations are hard to find but expensive to prove one way or the other and could just be wasting money since surnames like Jennings and Jenner aren't rare so it could just as easily be someone called Jenner and Jennings. Jenner is a nearer misspelling since it could be only one letter away - Jennes.
The older typed GRO indexes are not the originals which were handwritten and thrown away. As they began to fall apart temp typists were used (unfamiliar with older handwriting) to transfer the information to typed volumes. There was no checking that this typing was done completely accurately. I don't know the date when the GRO volumes ceased to be handwritten and original volumes were typed from the onset.
London Gazette 1878
William Brock Jennis Paymaster in Her Majesty's Fleet
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/24605/pages/4154/page.pdf
He married in the Bristol area in 1870
1871 census RG10 988 folio 119
Born Gillingham Kent circa 1843
He seems to have left the navy (always in an administrative capacity) by 1881 RG11 733 folio 132 with wife and children.
Baptism in Gillingham
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J9ZD-MJM
I can't see how this man could be connected to the 1872 marriage. His father, also called William, seems to have been born in Gillingham circa 1802. Neither seem to have any connection to shoemaking.
Regards
Valda
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Yes, I think I'll probably order the Jane Jennings certificate - and as you have reminded me - it's an unusual name and misspellings must be common - I should know that from the number of times I've found mistakes in other surnames as well.
Even the William Jenner could be my William.
I think I'll take it slowly and order some of the 'close' death certificates over the next couple of months and see how I go ::)
Once you put it all into context Valda, concerning temp typists unused to older handwriting, I can see why it can be so difficult to trace some family members.
I think I've just stumbled on Jemima Jennis in the '91 after searching for ages - on A.......y she is Jemima Gaines and tagged on with another family name, and on The G........t she is Jemima Guines. I'm almost 100% sure it's her because of her son's names.
So, another lesson learned - just because you can't find the actual correct surname, it doesn't mean they ain't there ;D ;D
Many thanks again Valda.
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Hi
Both the Jennings and the Jenner death certificates are risky. They could so easily just be a Jennings and a Jenner but they are both in the right registration district at the right time and deaths needed to be registered for a burial to go ahead so if not these then some other spelling variation.
Regards
Valda
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Hello again
I'm still on the trail of the deaths that I can't find - I've just received the certificate that could have been promising:
William Jenner (transcribed as Jenness) 1883 London city - only to find that it is definitely William Jenner living in Garlick Hill with son William who registered the death. Can find them on the '71 and '81. Worth a try though!
Thanks to Valda a possible marriage for the old William Jennis (b 1809 Ireland) in Clapham to Emma Maria Wright 1872 was found - they are together on the '81 under Geinees. The are living at 9 Mary Ann Street, St George in the East, where Emma Maria and first husband Gilbert were living in the '61, and widowed Emma and children on the '71.
I have also found William Jennis on the voters lists from 1875 to 1883 at 9 Mary Ann Street. Neither he nor Emma Maria can be found on the'91 but Emma Maria's death is registered later that year.
Did all males have the vote in the 19th century? Is it likely that William and Emma owned 9 Mary Ann Street?
Last question - is it just likely to be down to spelling mistakes that I can't find some of my Jennis/Gennis deaths?
I appreciate the help I've had already, thank you - any other ideas??!!
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Hi
The 1884 Reform Act extended male suffrage with 40% of all males over the age of 21 still without the right to vote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1884
Not all men who had the right to vote chose to do so.
Without a death certificate a body could not be buried. In the early days of civil registration that might not always be so, as might also the local registrars returns to the GRO and GRO index always being 100% always be accurate.
Home ownership by a large proportion of the population is more a post First and Second World War trend. If families owned property they would be more likely to leave wills but even then that is not certain.
Emma Maria's death certificate would give the information whether she was a widow or not.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks again Valda.
I've also just recently found Jemima Gennis on the electoral roll for Finsbury from 1892 through to her death 1898. This also puzzled me but looking into it I see that unmarried women (she was actually married) were included in these lists that were for local elections.
Men and women without a parliamentary vote were included according to A.......y.
All very interesting - I was not interested in politics before I started this research!
Does this mean that Jemima could have her say in local elections?
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Hi
Unmarried women who were householders (paid rates) had the right to vote in local elections from 1869. This right was extended to married women in 1894.
http://www.historyofwomen.org/suffragelocal.html
Regards
Valda
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Many thanks again Valda :)
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Further developments - Emma Maria's death certificate shows that she was the 'wife of William Gennis' - death reported by daughter Louisa. Her address also gave me her whereabouts on the '91 census as a widow under her previous name of Wright, certainly not living with William. I looked at any possible deaths again knowing now that William was alive in Nov 91.
Although 'William Gennis d. West Ham 1893 aged 68' didn't tie up with either of my Williams, I sent for the certificate and discovered that it was almost certainly William senior (described as master bootmaker), albeit 16 years out in the age. Death reported by daughter Elizabeth Abraams. I had a missing daughter Elizabeth so off I went again.
Elizabeth Jennings married Peter Abraams in 1857. I traced her through and found her with William Jennis (Jennie), relative aged 60 bootmaker on the '91 - William not previously found on that census. The age and the fact that it just says relative don't match, but together with the fact that William dies 2 years later and daughter Elizabeth Abraams reports the death and has been in attendance seems to point in the right direction.
I ordered a birth certificate for one of Elizabeth's children hoping to find the maiden name of Gennis/Jennis - but big disappointement when it arrived showing Jennings. So I sent for another thinking that it might be just a glitch - but no, the second one showed the same name.
Further to this, I hadn't been able to find John Gennis (Elizabeth's brother) in '81 - now looking at Elizabeth's life I find him with her in '81 - as a 'boarder', clicker and shoemaker, transcribed as Germin - but to my eyes definitely Gennis. It fits in with everything else.
Two other points - Fanny Wright (sister to John and Elizabeth) is a witness to Robert Abraams's (Elizabeth's son) marriage in 1876, and John Gennis is a witness to Elizabeth Abraams's (Elizabeth's daughter) marriage in 1889.
I think without these two witness details I wouldn't be as convinced that I have found the right family members - but with them it all seems to fall into place.
I would welcome any comments as I wonder if I am seeing what I want to see rather than the facts. :)
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Hi
It shows how much the information on certificates and censuses is very reliant on the accuracy of the information given as far as age, spellings and names etc are concerned and that flexibility is needed when searches are made and then cross checking against other records..
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda - I've certainly learnt a lot from my paternal line. You have to think laterally, use very broad brush strokes and not believe a word anyone says! It makes brilliant detective work for me though - which I love! ;D ;D
Thanks again for your help. :)
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Hi, I am very new to searching my family history. I don't know whether this helps but here goes. I am related to William and Jane Jennis through their oldest daughter Elizabeth (Betsy) born 1832 in Ireland. She married a Dutch mariner in 1857 whose name was Pieter Abrams (I have found it spelled about 4 different ways. But on their daughter's Elizabeth's marriage in 1889 (to my great grandfather) on the certificate it was spelled Abramsz. Now I will get back to the point - on the 1891 census for Elizabeth Abrams nee Jennis she states she was born in Dublin. She also has a William Jennis living with her (shoemaker) born in Dublin too with a rough age of 60. Could this be her brother who was born around 1835? Could William and Jane originally come from Dublin. Queenstown (where they said they were from) was a large port from which the Irish escaped in their hundreds of thousands? So perhaps they lived there for a while before the could get a ship out. Just a thought!
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Hello DKA :)
I can't tell you how excited I was to see your post! I haven't traced any of Elizabeth's children forward just yet as I was still waiting to confirm that she was Jennis and not the Jennings on her marriage cert to Peter. From your information then she was definitely Elizabeth/Betsy - that's great. ;D
I will send a personal message with my email address and would be happy to share any of my findings, and maybe I can learn something of your history.
As to the William in the '91 - I am sure it is William the elder (Elizabeth's father) as I already have her brother William living with his wife Emily in that census. The age is way out of course, as it is on William's death cert - but it clearly states that the death was reported by his daughter - Elizabeth Abrams.
Again - great to hear from you ;D Oh and welcome to Rootschat ;D
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Hi Edrubava, Great thrill to hear form you. I too am in Australia! Love to hear from you - I am still trying to work out how to use this site. Not quite sure how to view personal messages! Thanks for the info on William Senior - I am certainly on a steep learning curve! Have some more info but Have to fly now. Best wishes DKA
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OK DKA! I have sent a personal message - I know that before you can send one you have to do three posts - not sure if you can view any sent to you at any time or after the three posts ??? Perhaps someone will enlighten us...... It's an easy site so hopefully you will find my message soon.
Fancy you being in Australia too - small world ;D
Look forward to hearing from you :)
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Hi
To be able to view and send pms a new Rootschatter needs to make three posts.
This is the information page on Rootschat which explains the personal messaging system.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda, Thank-you for the advice, will make time to absorb all the info on the site - when all fails then read the instructions ...... Would there be any way of tracing the Jennis/Gennis family in Ireland or is there really to little to go on? Thank you
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Hi Edrubava, Will get back to you soon - trying to absorb all new info and see where I need to go from here. My gr gr grandmother was Elizabeth Jennis (1832) so is your relative her brother William? It is a small world. Although living in Australia I will always be a Londoner having had 4 generations of my family live in the East End but is a great thrill to find I have a distant relative here in Australia. After reading so much about the living conditions in London in the 19th century I consider it a miracle our ancestors survived at all! Best Wishes DKA
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Hi
I would ask for further advice from the Rootschatters on the relevant Irish county board on Rootschat. They will be the experts on Irish records.
Regards
Valda
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Hello DKA - yes, William (Elizabeth's brother) is my gr gr grandfather! According to most records he was born in London, which means that William senior, Jane and daughter Elizabeth were all born in Ireland, and they would have come to London around 1833 ish ???
I have looked into the Irish side of things but with so little information, and not knowing much apart from 'Queenstown' it seems a hard task!
I too have researched life in London during the 19th century and I agree that it is amazing that we are here - we have it so easy nowadays :o
Look forward to hearing from you again!
Julie :)