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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: sandy feet on Friday 12 October 12 21:57 BST (UK)
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Hello,
For some time I have been trying to trace my Great Grandmother, her parents and other family members in NZ and at this point have found no answers or evidence of their existence. I purchased her marriage and death certificates and searched on various sites. I am looking for anything really BD& M, immigration and Emigration, which Pub my Great Great Grandfather managed etc. Did Margaret have any siblings, what happened to her parents after she left for Australia or did they travel with her?
According to her marriage Certificate my Great Grandmother , Margaret Beatrice Mcgrath was born in be Rangiora, New Zealand. She was married in Townsville Australia in 1901 at the age of 25. Her husband’s name was Frank Rogers and they had 4 children. The Death Certificate said she died on the 4th February 1932 and she was 54 years 10 months and 13 days old making her birth day as the 22nd of March 1877.
Her parents’ names were Margaret Harwitts Burns and Vincent Mcgrath. Vincent Mcgrath is listed on Margaret Beatrice’s Marriage and Death Certs as Occupation – Publican.
Thankyou for your help
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Hi sandy feet,
In the first paragraph you mention that you have purchased your great-grandmother's birth certificate but in the second paragraph you state that her birth year was approx. 1877/1878, going by her marriage certificate.
Just so we can get a clearer picture, do you have the actual birth date of Margaret Beatrice?
Minniehaha.
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Hello Minihaha,
Sorry for the confusion, I have purchased her marriage and death certificate. The Death Certificate said she died on the 4th February 1932 and she was 54 years 10 months and 13 days old making her birth day as the 22nd of March 1877 . Her marriage cert said she was 25 y o on the 15th of July 1901 which fits with this.
Thanks Sandy Feet
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Hi Sandy Feet,
I'm assuming that you have modified your first post? Or have I just gone to the next stage in "senior moments"?
This one looks to be a bit tricky as so far I cannot find Margaret Beatrice on our BDM website but there are some pretty smart rootschatters out there who may find something for you.
Have you obtained any birth certificates/printouts for her 4 children? Just wondering if there may be further information there or perhaps inconsistencies re the birth place of their mother? (If that information appears on Australian records?)
Minniehaha. :)
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Hi,
There are at least three on line trees for Margaret Beatrice McGrath at A$y. One with all four children on.
I notice on there the mother's middle name is spelt Harwitto and that her surname is put down as Turner
Cheers
KHP
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Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate please, and where did they
marry ie religious denominatiuon?
Death for Frank Rogers 1912...if that is your Frank, do you know how Margaret supported herself and four small children after his death....relatives around?
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Hello Kiwihalfpint,
The Harwitto Turner as her mothers maiden name is what appears on her death certificate filled out by her son Thomas however on her marriage certificate the mothers name was listed as Margaret Harwitts burns which I assume was filled out by Margaret Beatrice herself. Strange I know.
Thanks Sandy Feet
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Hello Wivenhoe,
Margaret Beatrice McGrath and Frank Rogers( born Newton Abbott, Devonshire England) were married at St. Peters Church of England (Anglican) in Townsville on the 15th of July 1901. The witnesses were William McAllister and Lillian Sankey and the celebrant was F.G.Williams. Registrar was W.Thomas.
A couple of years after Frank's death Margaret moved to Halifax a small community outside of Ingham in North Queensland and opened a tea house. I assume she had the proceeds from the sale of the building that their home and Dental practice were in Townsville. It appears the owned the building in flinder's Street Townsville and Frank's partner a man named Affleck took over the business.
I am not aware of any relatives of Frank or Margaret who lived in Australia or when either of them immigrated to Australia.
Thanks Sandy Feet
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I am not aware of any relatives of Frank or Margaret who lived in Australia or when either of them immigrated to Australia.
Hi sandy feet
.... welcome. :)
* Does Margaret's death certificate record "the number of years spent in QLD" ?
~ Lu
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Hello Lucy2,
Unfortunately the death cert states born in Christchurch ( as opposed to Rangiora on the marriage cert) and is blank beside period of residence in Australia.
Thanks Sandy
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Hello,
I am still having no success with my research for Margaret Beatrice or Margaret and Vincent ( her parents) as posted above. Just wondering if there is anywhere in Rangiora that I could contact regarding birth or possibly christening records. Was there a hospital their in the 1870's ?
Thanks Sandy
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Hello Sandy
You could consider an approach to the Christchurch City Library at:-
http://christchurchcitylibraries.com/ContactUs/
They have a very good Research Archives Centre. Their e mail:-
library@ccc.govt.nz
Perhaps there is a local Genealogy or History Group. A search or two on Google would be worth while.
Best of luck
Alex G
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Hi Sandy
Have (at last) managed to find some information for you (and there's rather a lot). :)
[I'm just getting to grips with my new computer ... so bear with me ... and I'll post it shortly. ;D ]
~ Lu
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Hi again Sandy
Whilst being offline for the past few days setting up a new computer, and needing something "meaningful" to do, thought I'd delve once more into this mystery you have. :D
I figured that at least, there had to be a record of Margaret's parents ... though the path to finding same was blurred somewhat in that every McGRATH seemed to have a wife named "Margaret" ... and the only "Vincent McGRATH" was a long-term settler in the far North of New Zealand, whose "profile" just didn't stack up. There were also a number of McGRATH families residing in the general Christchurch (Canterbury) area, who had to be "looked at" for the purpose of elimination.
The "eureka" moment came though, upon checking baptisms. (See next post for details.)
[I've searched through newspapers and other records and have also viewed files held at Archives NZ, and although "Vincent McGRATH" (named by Margaret as her father), doesn't crop up, I feel reasonably confident that the McGRATH's I've found, are the parents of Margaret.] ;)
... continued next >>
~ Lu
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The following comes from the Index (only) of Baptisms for the Catholic Diocese of Christchurch (NZ).
ID Code : 20603
McGRATH [alias TURNER] - Margaret [Mrs Peter McGRATH ]
Date of Baptism : 14 December 1877
Parish Name : Rangiora
Parish ID : 39
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Above of course does not match the "Margaret Harwitts BURNS" you have on the Marriage certificate ... BUT, it seems to provide a link to "TURNER" (on the death cert.) and there's the match too to "Rangiora". [This record may perhaps appear a little obscure at this stage, but you'll see the link when I add further information for Peter McGRATH. ]
I'm unsure as to why the word "alias" (and not "nee" or "formerly"), is included in the record ??
Also, have not yet been able to find a record of a marriage.
;) Would recommend that you obtain a copy of this baptism certificate ... further details in next post.
continued >>
~ Lu
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... and also from Catholic baptisms (Christchurch Diocese) ... the following - which despite the year (1874), may be your Margaret Beatrice ?
ID Code : 12417
McGRATH - Margaret
Date of Baptism : 22 March* 1874
Parish Name : Lincoln
Parish ID : 30
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* Noting that above date - 22 March - is the same as you've calculated as birth day and month, per Margaret ROGER's death cert. ;)
[May be a coincidence of course, but still worthwhile purchasing copy of baptism certificate. The Parish of Lincoln is South of Christchurch, and quite a distance from Rangiora, but Peter McGrath is known to have been working at times, in or near to Lincoln. Have found further evidence to suggest that due to a lack of Priests, the Catholics of Christchurch took turns at worshipping in a variety of different parishes. ]
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This from the Index of Christchurch Catholic Baptisms :
"Computer-produced printouts of Baptisms are available at a cost of $5 (NZ$5).
Printout will normally include - Full name / date of birth / date of baptism / address / father and mother's names (often the mother's maiden name) / parish / godparents and celebrant's names. "
Ordering Information :
Include ID Code and all pertinent info. as given on index.
Postal Address: Catholic Diocese of Christchurch / P O Box 4544 /Christchurch 8140, New Zealand.
[Not sure that they have a payment by credit card option ?? ]
Perhaps try an email firstly to the Diocesan Office ? (- they're most helpful). :)
http://www.chch.catholic.org.nz/?sid=1037
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more to follow ... >>
~ Lu
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Peter McGRATH of Rangiora (and resident at times in other Canterbury locations and also later in the wider Wellington (North Island) district), was first and foremost, a Roading Contractor. He employed a large number of men and took on contracts around Canterbury and the neighbouring province of Marlborough before moving on to Wellington. Only in 1883-4, did he briefly become a Publican.
It seems he was a generous man (donating to Catholic and other charities), and widely respected.
He comes to prominence in newspaper reports around 1883 and then in 1884 following bankruptcy, there is much publicity concerning his (business-related) affairs and eventual "extradition" back to NZ from Sydney, to face (seemingly ill-conceived) accusations "of absconding with intent to defraud his creditors".
In researching this, have built up a profile of Peter McGRATH so will add the details here for you - along with links to relevant info.
Just off for lunch ... will get back to this shortly.
continues >
~ Lu
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Hello Lucy,
Thanks so much for your help. This is really exciting as I have been looking for these relatives for so long.
I look forward to your next post regarding Peter. I wonder where the Vincent comes in ?
I wonder why Margaret called her mother Harwitts Burns and her death cert said Turner?
Thanks again
Sandy
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Hello Lucy...
Just some further info. None of it verified, nor possibly of any use :-)
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The 22 Mar 1874 Margaret McGRATH baptism possibly relates to the following BDM NZ Births entry...
BDM NZ Births 1874/29131 - McGRATH, Margaret - mother: Margaret father:Patrick d.o.b 19 Mar 1874
BDM NZ Search
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/
There is a Patrick McGRATH and a Margaret McGRATH buried in adjacent graves at Linwood Cemetery, Christchurch. Possibly the above mentioned father and mother. Or not.
Margaret McGRATH - d.o.d 28 July 1923 - Block 45, Plot 256 Linwood Cemetery
http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries/interment.asp?id=93739
Patrick McGRATH - d.o.d 16 Nov 1927 - Block 45 Plot 257 Linwood Cemetery
http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries/interment.asp?id=97023
There is a mention of Doyleston in Margaret's burial record. Lincoln is about twelve miles up the road so I'd guess that Doyleston is well within the Lincoln registration district..
EDIT:
PapersPast - Obituary of Patrick McGRATH
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s2y/
Possible probates
McGRATH Patrick- West Oxford & Christchurch - Widow - 1927
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=20183057
MCGRATH Margaret (R23089583) - 1923 - 1923 Doyleston - Married woman
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23089583
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The only 1877 McGRATH birth in Rangiora that I could find was for Peter Stephen McGRATH.
BDM NZ Births 1877/4578 - McGRATH, Peter Stephen - mother: Margaret father: Peter d.o.b 8 Apr 1877
which corresponds to ....
BDM NZ Births Microfiche - 1877/1454- McGRATH, Peter Stephen - Rangiora - Q2
April 1877 plus nine months gives January 1878 so the December 1877 baptism is more than likely not for a younger sibling to this Peter Stephen McGRATH.
Peter Stephen McGRATH died in late December 1946. His remains are in the Church of England Cemetery at Rookwood, Sydney, Australia so he's unlikely to be on the Catholic Diocese Baptism CD anyway. Or not.
Trove - 2 Jan 1947 - Page 16 The Sydney Morning Herald (bottom of third column)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18019131
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The only other 1877 Christchurch birth for a McGRATH that I could find was the following...
BDM NZ Births 1877/13122 - McGRATH, Mary Margaret - mother: Kate father: James d.o.b 14 Aug 1877
which corresponds to ....
BDM NZ Births Microfiche - McGRATH, Mary Margaret - 1877/2561 - Christchurch - Q3
She may have married Herbert SEWELL in 1912.
BDM NZ Marriages - 1912/8183 - Mary Margaret McGRATH to Herbert SEWELL
According to her age at death and date of death Mary Margaret SEWELL was born c.1877
Timaru Cemetery
http://www.timaru.govt.nz/services/cemetery/plot/16820
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Citing the December 1877 baptism record you wrote...
"McGRATH [alias TURNER] - Margaret"
Is this the child's name or does this refer to the mother "Mrs Peter McGRATH"
Regards
Beg
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Hi Sandy
... back from an over-long lunch break. ;D
Much of the info Beg has just posted, relates to persons I've already been able to eliminate (but which I haven't to date mentioned, because at this stage, I tend to think it creates a lot of confusion.) I will though go over that info and add further to it. :)
I look forward to your next post regarding Peter. I wonder where the Vincent comes in ?
I wonder why Margaret called her mother Harwitts Burns and her death cert said Turner?
Mmm ... sorry, I think perhaps only Margaret (or one of her children) would have had the answers to those questions. I could though offer all sorts of speculation. ;D
I wonder also, why it was that son Thomas gave the surname of TURNER ... and whether he may have actually known his grandmother ?
[For my "money", I tend to think the baptism record (1877) at Rangiora relating to McGRATH, Margaret (Mrs Peter MCGrath), holds the key to finding out more. ] ;)
~ Lu
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Hi again Lucy...
Totally agree that the 1877 baptism record you found needs to be looked into. So far it's the only piece of info which links so many of the names/dates mentioned in the thread. Well worth a $5 speculator by Sandy.
...I tend to think it creates a lot of confusion. I will though go over that info and add further to it.
Don't feel you need to add to my previous post if it adds to the confusion. Happy to edit my post down if that helps. Just tell me where to snip.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
No, leave your post intact. ;)
[I've spent several days sifting through and sorting the various McGRATHs - and there is nothing to indicate at this point, that they had a connection to Peter McGRATH. ]
The exception is - Peter Stephen McGRATH (birth reg'd. 1877) who I've put aside for the time being. [There is a Christchurch Catholic baptism record available for him - baptised at the Cathedral - 13 May 1877. ]
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My take on the 1877 baptism record for Margaret McGRATH at Rangiora is that this was an "adult" baptism. Margaret McGRATH (the "wife" of Peter McGRATH), "formerly" or, "also known as", TURNER.
[And if it were me purchasing a copy of that baptism, then for the meagre price of $5, I'd also be ordering the Margaret McGRATH - baptised 22 March 1874 at Lincoln. ] :D
~ Lu
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Thanks Lucy & beg,
I will order a copy of the baptism and post the info. The 22nd of march was only calculated from the death cert and may easily be incorrect however the 1877 seems like a better chance but I have just read your new post and will order both.
In the mean time I will look into Peter and Margaret.
Just as a side issue Neil from my Australian post has found a Margaret Burns who immigrated in 1884 but I cannot find any marriage to a McGrath so it is probably not my Margaret however I will attach the post below.
"On NZ imgration there is one for a Margaret Burns aged 24? arrived 1874 these are guesses normally. So I checked England Census 1851, 1861 and 1871 and found same Margaret I think Father Thomas with Mother Mary Burns.
Her age varies throughout the census from 1852 to 1856 same parents but Thomas has died prior to 1871. On this census Mary is living with the children and her Brother Thomas HEWERLAY. This could be a mistranscription from Harwitts. By the way they all (Parents) come from Ireland.
They have lived in Birminham Warwickshire England since before 1851.
Thomas Hewerlay was born c1811 Mary c1810 and Thomas Burns c 1795"
Hope this doesn't confuse.
Thanks Again Sandy ;D
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Hi Sandy
... just digressing slightly ... :D
From what I've found to date, I tend to think that the Margarets (wife & daughter) left NZ around mid-1884 and that Peter McGRATH possibly left at the end of that year or early 1885 [- still have some records to re-check].
Of course it's odd that Margaret named her father as Vincent, and there's every possibility that she was estranged from him at the time of her marriage.
I haven't managed to find a lot that's helpful so far, in Australian records or newspapers (nothing that leads to a Vincent McGRATH who might be a candidate).
There was however a Peter McGRATH showing up in Electoral rolls around Townsville for a few years (from 1903).
And I also came across this death (in which "Ingham" is mentioned) ?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
"The Brisbane Courier" - 15 February 1912 - page 4
"Townsville .... the body of an elderly man named Peter McGRATH was found floating in Ross Creek, opposite the gas works. Deceased had been employed on the Ingham Railway construction.... "
Of course it may be totally unrelated ... and this poor man might simply have been just a labourer on the construction project ? Adding in case you'd like to check it out further (there may have been an inquest too ) ?
~ Lu
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And I also came across this death (in which "Ingham" is mentioned) ?
"The Brisbane Courier" - 15 February 1912 - page 4
"Townsville .... the body of an elderly man named Peter McGRATH was found floating in Ross Creek, opposite the gas works. Deceased had been employed on the Ingham Railway construction.... "
Hi Lucy...
BDM Queensland says...
1912/C4734 - Peter McGRATH - ** born Ireland aged 46 years d.o.d 13 Feb 1912
...which gives a year of birth of c.1866. So possibly not the father of Margaret Beatrice b.1877 assuming he is the Peter McGRATH mentioned in Trove
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My take on the 1877 baptism record for Margaret McGRATH at Rangiora is that this was an "adult" baptism. Margaret McGRATH (the "wife" of Peter McGRATH), "formerly" or, "also known as", TURNER.
So should we be looking for a Vincent TURNER...
Regards
Beg
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Hello Lucy,
Just wondering where you found the immigration info on Margaret x2 and peter as I would like to know where they first landed in Australia so I can look for records in that city.
Thanks also for clarifying things on the Aussie link.
I don't know how long the Baptism records hopefully they will answer a few questions.
Regards Sandy
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Hello All,
I have just received the 2 Baptism documents in the mail. The first
ID Code : 20603
McGRATH [alias TURNER] - Margaret [Mrs Peter McGRATH ]
Date of Baptism : 14 December 1877
Parish Name : Rangiora
Parish ID : 39
It does note that this was a “ Convert “ baptism and therefore this Margaret was an adult at the time. It also states that she was born Wednesday, 1st January 1800 which rules out both Margaret’s mother and daughter.
The second was more promising-
ID Code : 12417
McGRATH - Margaret
Date of Baptism : 22 March* 1874
Parish Name : Lincoln
Parish ID : 30
The parents name were Margaret Burns and Patrick Mcgrath. The child was born Thursday the 12th of March 1874. The sponsors were James Burns and his wife. I assume Margaret’s brother or father.
I have found several James Burns on electoral roles in NZ around his time but hard too make a connection
Regards Sandy
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Hello Sandy...
The second certificate certainly looks promising with it mentioning BURNS.
Does the certificate give the name of James BURNS' wife. Or of their residence.
And, just to clarify, apart from the 1901 ROGERS-MCGRATH marriage certificate is this 1874 baptism certificate the only other mention of the surname BURNS that you've come across (excluding on-line family trees)
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For what it's worth, keep in the back of your mind the Patrick and Margaret McGRATH of Doyleston that I mentioned in an earlier post. I think I'm right in saying that Doyleston is within the Lincoln registration district (but I may be wrong :-)
Have also added probate links to earlier post. Possibly think of asking for a look-up.
EDIT:
Another probate that may be connected. Maybe not :-)
Note surname is BURN, not BURNS. But Doyleston gets a mention.
BURN James (R23028836) 1918 - 1918 - Doyleston - Farmer
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23028836
May be BDM NZ Deaths - 1918/1178 - BURNS, James - 69Y - d.o.d 14 Jun 1918
Need to check fiche for location
Regards
Beg
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Hello Beg,
The cert says SPONSOR – James Burns and below “his Wife”
What does this mean?
Yes the only mention of BURNS is on the 1901 marriage cert.
Regards Sandy
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Hello All,
I have just received the 2 Baptism documents in the mail. The first
ID Code : 20603
McGRATH [alias TURNER] - Margaret [Mrs Peter McGRATH ]
Date of Baptism : 14 December 1877
Parish Name : Rangiora
Parish ID : 39
It does note that this was a “ Convert “ baptism and therefore this Margaret was an adult at the time. It also states that she was born Wednesday, 1st January 1800 which rules out both Margaret’s mother and daughter.
Hi again Sandy
I have some further info to add shortly re: the Margaret BURNS connected with Patrick McGRATH. [I held it back earlier so as not to "confuse" the search for the McGRATH with links to Rangiora. ]
------------------
But concerning the above baptism of Margaret (alias TURNER) (Mrs Peter McGRATH.
* Was no explantion given to you along with this baptism certifcate, regarding the date shown as "1st January 1800" ??
I ask because, I have a similar baptism cert. from this same source (child born and baptised in early 1868 - with date of birth stated as "01/01/1800") and it came with an explanatory note as to this "odd" date.
[It may of course be that the Catholic Archives assumed that you had already read the notes accompanying their Baptism Index. ]
Anyway the following is what is written on the Catholic Diocese of Christchurch Baptism CD :
"Date of Birth given as '01/01/1800' is merely a computer generated date which should be interpreted as 'No Date Entered' : "
Which means that this Margaret (Mrs Peter McGRATH) should not be ruled out. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Sandy
Is there further information contained in the (1877) Bapt. cert. for Margaret (alias TURNER (Mrs Peter McGRATH) ?
* An address ?
* Name of sponsor (not sure if this applies in case of an adult ? )
~ Lu
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Hi again...
I'm beginning to think the Doyleston angle I was pushing is a red herring. Possibly not connected to the 1874 Lincoln baptism at all. Either that or the 1874 baptism is the red herring, even though it mentions BURNS.
I was just browsing PapersPast and saw a 1914 death notice for "James McGRATH, sixth son of P and M McGRATH of Doyleston". I'm pretty sure you'd have come across a mention of at least one of so many siblings in your research but you said earlier that you'd not.
The Press - 16 March 1914 - Page 1 - Deaths
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0s3c/
The notice also mentions a brother-in-law by the name of G.BLACKMORE. Most likely George BLACKMORE who married a Margaret McGRATH on 29 Jul 1897
BDM NZ Marriages - 1897/2041 - Margaret McGRATH to George BLACKMORE
They share a plot at Linwood Cemetery
Margaret BLACKMORE d.1916
http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries/interment.asp?id=27809
George BLACKMORE d.1940
http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries/interment.asp?id=107092
The Margaret BLACKMORE m.s McGRATH who died in 1916 was 42 so was born c.1874. According to the burial record she lived in NZ all of her life.
Regards
Beg
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Hello Lucy and Beg,
The Baptism had no address but the sponsor was a Mary Boyd. Thanks for the info regardinding the other Doyleston baptism and the 1/1/1800 . Since neither of these Baptisms have any second names eg Beatrice it is likely the parents had second names and were not listed.
Thanks Sandy
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Hi Sandy
Cheers for the clarification. ;)
Had just been in the process of posting a fairly lengthy explanation as to being able to rule out Margaret McGRATH (nee BURNS) the wife of Patrick of Doyleston.
Hit the "post" button just as your message came in ... and lost all I'd written !!
Grrrrrrr .... there must be gremlins in the system here !!! Will try again with an abbreviated version.
~ Lu
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Margaret (nee BURNS) and Patrick McGRATH came to Leeston and Doyleston (Canterbury) sometime after May 1871.
Prior to this they'd been Australia where several children were born in Queensland.
Queensland Births
Unnamed Child - born 12 July 1865 - Patrick McGRATH / Margaret BURNS
Bridget Agatha McGRATH - b. 24 March 1868 - died QLD 27 August 1868
- Patrick McGRATH / Margaret BURNS
Edmund* Francis McGRATH - b. 7 June 1869 - Patrick McGRATH / Margaret BURNES
[* Edmund was known as "Edward" in NZ and second name of Francis was dropped. A brother named "Francis" was born 1877 in NZ. ]
Patrick McGRATH - b. 28 May 1871 - Patrick McGRATH / Margaret BURNS
----------------------
Have found school records for some of the children of Patrick McGRATH of Doyleston who attended at various times, the Leeston School and Leeston Catholic School.
[* Note: The "dates of birth" given in these records are not always accurate. ]
Maggie McGRATH - d.o.b. 12 March 1874 - Admission to Lesston School 1880
[This is Margaret, the one you have the baptism cert. for. ]
Edward McGrath - d.o.b. 11 June 1869* (should be 7 June 1868 )
John McGRATH - d.o.b. 10 November 1875 (also oddly shown as "25 October 1875" on one record ? )
Patrick McGRATH - d.o.b. 28 May 1871 (and on another record, 28 May 1870 ? )
~ Lu
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Edmund* Francis McGRATH - b. 7 June 1869 - Patrick McGRATH / Margaret BURNES
[* Edmund was known as "Edward" in NZ and second name of Francis was dropped. A brother named "Francis" was born 1877 in NZ. ]
----------------------
*** CORRECTION ***
Edward McGrath - d.o.b. 11 June 1869 1868* (should be 7 June 1868 1869)
^ ^ ^ ... corrections to my earlier posting. :D
~ Lu
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Thanks Lucy,
Have you any suggestions where I could look for information to connect Patrick and Margaret ( Turner)? This is certainly the most difficult relative to find in my tree so far. I suppose it only takes one bit of information to link it all together.
Sandy
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Hello Lucy,
I have been reading through all the posts looking for another angle to pursue and was wondering if you could please give me your sources for the following quotes from your posts.
In regard to the Newspaper info regarding Patrick's court proceedings re- Publican . I have searched papers past to no avail.
Quotes from Lucy2
“From what I've found to date, I tend to think that the Margarets (wife & daughter) left NZ around mid-1884 and that Peter McGRATH possibly left at the end of that year or early 1885 [- still have some records to re-check”
“He comes to prominence in newspaper reports around 1883 and then in 1884 following bankruptcy, there is much publicity concerning his (business-related) affairs and eventual "extradition" back to NZ from Sydney, to face (seemingly ill-conceived) accusations "of absconding with intent to defraud his creditors".
Thanks Sandy
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Have you any suggestions where I could look for information to connect Patrick and Margaret ( Turner)?
Sandy
In regard to the Newspaper info regarding Patrick's court proceedings re- Publican . I have searched papers past to no avail.
Hi Sandy
Just to clarify for you, the man connected to Margaret McGRATH (alias TURNER) at Rangiora (the 1877 baptism) ... and the roading contractor who was briefly a publican at Wellington, (1883-84) ... is Peter McGRATH (and not Patrick McGRATH).
I already have much information on this Peter McGRATH ... will sift through my notes and reply to your questions later today.
~ Lu
[PS : Thanks for your earlier message, but as I don't have access to the PM facility in this forum, am unable to read or reply to it. ] ;)
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Thanks Lucy,
Have you any suggestions where I could look for information to connect Patrick Peter and Margaret ( Turner)? This is certainly the most difficult relative to find in my tree so far. I suppose it only takes one bit of information to link it all together.
Sandy
Hi again
Yes, I do have some further suggestions ;) ... and will add these after I've replied to your questions regarding the items at PapersPast. [This will allow me to hopefully better explain these suggestions. ]
~ Lu
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Hi Sandy
Following is a brief history of the Peter McGRATH, roading contractor and later a publican, who was resident for some years at Rangiora (as well as other Canterbury locations and the Wellington district).
[This profile is compiled from information extracted from numerous newspaper items and, (where they exist), from records from other resources. I am of the view that there was just the one man named Peter McGRATH residing in the general Canterbury area during the 1870's to early 1880's. Whilst the NZ voting rolls of 1880-81 have listings for what looks like 3 different Peter McGRATH's in Canterbury, this (one) man owned land in several locations and as such, qualified for voting rights in each. ]
* Arrival in NZ - date unknown : Possibly in the colony as early as 1873 working on the Oxford Tram Road (Canterbury). In February 1876 the tender of P. McGrath is accepted for the formation of the Bealey Gorge Road.
* Many advertisements in (Canty. ) newspapers up to 1882 mentioning Peter (or P.) McGRATH relating to tenders for other road building work ... his buying / selling of land and of chattels once contracts had been completed. He owned at least one farm and also had a brief stint as an auctioneer.
* He worked mainly on (local) government projects and employed a large band of men (- often the Christchurch unemployed, were despatched to his sites). As work was spread over the whole of the Canterbury area (and neighbouring regions) he would have been absent from his home base Rangiora for lengthy spells at times.
* In October of 1882 (whilst still at Rangiora) he was awarded the tender for the Te Aro Reclamation work in Wellington (he was the lowest tenderer by some L6,000 (six thousand pounds)! [ "Colonist" (Nelson) - 31 October 1882 - Wellington ... " P. McGRATH signed a contract today ... " ]
* According to some newspaper reports the Wellington Council put many obstacles the way of Peter McGRATH, and while he commenced the contract, by May 1883 he was in financial difficulties.
continues next >
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Peter McGRATH ... continued
* The "New Zealand Herald" (Auckland) - 29 May 1883 - NZ Telegrams (along with other newspapers) carried the following story : "Peter McGRATH, contractor for a section of the Wellington-Manawatu Railway and the Te Aro Reclamation, has assigned his estate."
[This was apparently seen as a better option than declaring bankruptcy. ]
* Various notices followed in newspapers re: creditors meetings (in Wellington).
* The "Evening Post" (Wellington) - 20 October 1883 - page 3 / column 5 lists an Auction to take place at "Mr P. McGRATH's residence, Kent Terrace ... for the whole of the furniture of a 10-room house ... consisting of principally superior articles (furniture recently purchased, almost new) .... "
[There followed in the papers something of an outcry (from creditors) as to how McGRATH could be in possession of expensive furnishings (in particular a Belgian rug of some worth) .... when he owed money to so many. ::) ]
* Just a matter of weeks later however, Peter McGRATH begins advertising that he is now the proprietor (having purchased the lease and goodwill ), of the Star Hotel, in Lambton Quay, Wellington. "Evening Post" - 1 November 1883 page 4 / col. 5
continues next >
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Peter McGRATH - continued ...
* A variety of advertisements concerning the Star Hotel ... (newly renovated ... hosting government officials ... etc.) appear in the months of Nov / Dec. (1883) and January / February 1884.
* What transpires after the end of February concerning McGRATH and the Star Hotel, and his numerous creditors, is best explained in the following article [which comes after he has absconded to Sydney and then been extradited to NZ.]
"Evening Post" - 16 September 1884 - page 2 - McGRATH Before the Magistrate's Court.
- Confirms Peter McGRATH, late landlord of the Star Hotel ... was last seen in the hotel bar on 1st March (1884)
- Charles Cheymol (a creditor) states he took possession of the hotel on 3 March and that Mrs McGRATH remained at the hotel for about 2 weeks.
[In another report, it was also said that Mrs. McGRATH had some responsibility for running the hotel. ]
- Peter McGRATH states that he went to Sydney by the "Hauroto".
[Couldn't find his name on the passenger list for the voyage which departed Wellington early March. ALSO ... during the Court proceedings the Prosecutor at one time challenged whether in fact McGRATH was on that particular vessel and that he (the Prosecutor), would be checking further and speaking to the Captain of the "Hauroto". ]
continues next >
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Peter McGRATH ... continued
[Note: In none of the good many articles relating to Peter McGRATH (publican / former contractor) did I find his wife referred to by anything other than "Mrs McGRATH". Likewise there is no mention that he had a family (though living in a 10-room house in Wellington may be a clue that he had a brood in tow ?) ]
We should never be too reliant on passenger manifests, so the following may or may not be, the wife and children of Peter McGRATH.
"Evening Post" - 14 March 1884 - Shipping - page 2
"Wakatipu" - departed Wellington 13 March - arrived Sydney 17th March 1884
Cabin Passengers : A Mrs BATTERSLE (Battersbee?) and a Mrs McGRATH and six children ??
The Mariners in Australian Waters website (and also ancestry site) have a scan of the passenger list you can view. It shows Mrs. McGRATH accompanied by 4 children and Mrs. Battersbee (no children) ??
[Note: At Peter McGRATH's "trial" September 1884 it was stated that Mrs McGRATH remained at the Star Hotel for about another two weeks - after the last sighting of her husband on 1 March. So the Mrs McGRATH and children departing for Sydney on 14 March, do seem a real possibility. ]
------------------
A number of NZ newspapers reported on Peter McGRATH's arrest in Sydney (August 1884) - this was one of them > "Marlborough Express" - 23 August 1884 - Another Absconding Publican. [And his return to Wellington (apparently without any of his family) > "Manawatu Herald" - 15 September 1884 - page 3 ... [Messrs. Poppens and McGrath ]
continues next >
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Peter McGRATH ... continued
[Only found this one item in Australian newspapers re: McGRATH's arrest. ]
"Australian Town and Country Journal" (NSW) - Saturday 13 September 1884 - page 18
"Peter McGRATH, contractor and lately Hotelkeper at Wellington, appeared in the Central Police Court on Tuesday charged with absconding from New Zealand with intent to defraud creditors ..."
------------------
Despite a plan being in place from May 1883 to repay his creditors (and confirmation that moneys would be sent from Sydney), Peter McGRATH was officially declared bankrupt in NZ.
But in September 1884 McGrath was said to be making application for discharge from bankruptcy and the following article then appeared.
"Evening Post" - 26 September 1884 - The Education Grant
... Creditors acceptance of offer (made by McGRATH) to allow Bankruptcy to be annulled. All other charges against McGRATH were withdrawn. McGRATH then joined his friends outside the Court.
------------------
Wellington newspapers through to 1886 carried occasional notices of dividends being paid to McGRATH's NZ creditors (... and there is even one as late as 1889 paid out of Sydney. ).
From his September 1884 Court appearance, there is no further mention (business-wise) of Peter McGRATH, nor any listings on NZ electoral / voter's rolls.
continued >
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Peter McGRATH ... continued
So if Peter McGRATH was repaying his creditors (from Sydney) it would seem that he was working in that location.
[Note: After he absconded from Wellington in March 1884, McGRATH said he'd been involved with two contracts (roading ?) in Sydney - namely at Woolloomooloo and Balmain. ]
Having searched long and hard in Australian papers (and also e/rolls), I didn't find anything that indicated Peter McGRATH's presence.
So, did Peter McGRATH maybe die shortly after returning to Australia ?
You may like to check further on the following deaths which appeared in NSW newspapers ? : [see TROVE website ]
Funeral Notices - both "Sydney Morning Herald" :
- 17 June 1885 - page 16 "The friends of the late Peter McGRATH ... funeral to move from St. Vincent's Hospital ... "
- 7 September 1885 - page 14
"... The friends of the lately deceased Peter McGRATH, are invited to attend his son (Thomas's) funeral to leave 32 Weymss Street (off Goulburn Street) ...
-------------
[Note: The son, Thomas McGRATH is shown on NSW Death Index as having parents named "Peter and Margaret McGRATH". ???
Can see nothing further which gives an indication to ages of this Peter and Thomas - nor a birth record for a Thomas in NSW. ]
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Margaret McGRATH
As previously mentioned, the wife of the publican Peter McGRATH (who is also the former "contractor") is to be found identified only as Mrs McGRATH.
Except for this article > "Star" (Christchurch) - 3 June 1882 - Local and General
... which talks about "Mrs Peter McGRATH of Rangiora" who organised a Catholic Church Bazaar fundraiser.
-------------
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Hello Lucy,
Thanks so much for all of this information. Sorry about my late reply but have been offline for a couple of weeks. I will follow up these leads and try to work out what happened to th etwo margarets and other siblings. I notice that one childs name was Thomas which was also the name of Margaret Beatrice's son, which may be just a coincidence or not. It is a shame that none of the documents of Peter mentioned a second name or initial.
Thanks again. I will post anything I find. :)
Regards Sandy
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Hello Family Researchers of Peter McGrath,
I too have been searching for Peter McGrath (my second great grandfather) born 1838 in Waterford Ireland.
A few things come to light after reading your posts.
1. Peter married Matilda McCloy (a widow, formally Turner) in Hokitika 1866 at the registry office- the Turner name continues to appear in your posts. I have purchased this marriage certificate from BDM NZ.
2. Peter's occupation is noted on the marriage certificate as a miner.
3. They had a son that same year, Maurice (my great grandfather).
4. I have purchased Maurice's birth certificate, Peter's occupation is recorded on it as a contractor - which fits with your posts re contractor.
5. I have Peter leaving Wellington and arriving in Australia, on his own, aboard the Wakatipu, on 22 March 1878 - which fits with your posts re leaving NZ following bankruptcy solo.
6. I have his death as, Sydney 17 June 1885, aged 47
7. All events outside of those noted above are unknown to me.
I trust, given the years past since these posts were made, you have solved this mystery, if not I hope this information will help, not confuse.
Warm regards - Juliannet
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Hello Juliannet,
Thanks so much for adding your information to the post. No unfortunately I have not progressed on the mystery of Peter and Margaret since my last post and am happy you have reignited the search. Although your Peter McGrath seems to have some similarities have you any info to confirm they are the same person ? The wife's surname alias Turner does seem to be more than a coincidence. As suggested by another post i do think the Turner vs Burns discrepancy can be put down to hand writting interpretation with the URN in both names suggesting that it is indeed Turner all along.
I wonder however about the Matilda McCloy vs Margaret Turner ? McGrath. Have you any suggestions? Also my Peter and Margaret were married in Rangiora not Hokitika which is some distance away in another parish. Also not sure about the date I will go back and check.
Also you have found your Great Grandfather Maurice . Do you have his death certificate and does it have any siblings listed.
Thanks Sandy Feet
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Hi Sandy,
I have located the death certificates for Peter, Matilda & Maurice McGrath.
They will take 4 weeks to be received by me from the BDM NSW.
I'll let you know the outcome.
Type Registration Number Name(s)
1 Certificate 1260/1885 PETER MCGRATH
2 Certificate 1216/1882 MATILDA MCGRATH
3 Certificate 19786/1945 MAURICE MCGRATH
Although both Peter McGrath's run parallel, Matilda doesn't fit.
I don't know if Peter and Matilda had other children, have to wait for death certificate.
I do know Matilda was pregnant when they married, so more children later is possible.
However they were married in the Hokitika registry office, so I think this rules my Peter out of your search.
Unless I can correlate my Peter to the bankruptcy without question, then everything is back on the table!
Warms regards
Julie
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Hi Sandy,
Further to my last post, I have noticed Lucy suggested ...
So, did Peter McGRATH maybe die shortly after returning to Australia ?
If it's the same Peter McGrath. Yes. This is his death notice in the SMH July 1885.
THE FRIENDS of the late Mr. PETER McGRATH are respectfully invited to attend his Funeral ; to move from St. Vincent's Hospital THIS (Wednesday) AFTERNOON, at a quarter past 1 o'clock, to Necropolis. H. KINSELA, Under- taker, George-street, opposite Christ Church ; and Sussex-street South.
Lucy also suggested there is another son born in NZ to Peter and Margaret, Thomas who's death notice is also in trove a few months later September 1885
THE FRIENDS of the lately deceased PETER McGRATH are respectfully invited to attend his SON (Thomas's) Funeral ; to leave 32, Weymss-street, off Goulburn- street, at 2 p.m., TO-DAY.
I have found the following birth notice (the only birth to fit Peter/Margaret/time) for a Thomas McGrath born in 1873 (which would make Thomas 12yrs old at the time of his death)
BIRTH OF THOMAS IN NZ...
Registration Number Family Name Given Name Mothers Given Name Father's Given Name
1873/31817 McGrath Thomas Margaret Jane Peter
DEATH OF THOMAS IN NSW...
Registration Number Last Name Given Name Father's Given Name Mother's Given Name District
1806/1885 MCGRATH THOMAS PETER MARGARET SYDNEY
All died in Sydney - The order of death, Matilda (Margaret), Peter, Thomas, Maurice (my ggrand father )
I'm not sure any of this fits, however it my help you to include/exclude
Warm regards
Julie
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Thanks Julie, I hope we can establish the link to this Peter. As yet I have not been able to trace the family prior to N.Z so I am glad that you found your Peter, at least, is from Ireland. I am also interested in how the family oved from sydney to North Queensland? If you have not come across my post in the Australian Rootschat it is http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=620317.0.
Looking forward to the info in the death certs. Thanks .
Regards Sandy
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"... The friends of the lately deceased Peter McGRATH, are invited to attend his son (Thomas's) funeral to leave 32 Weymss Street (off Goulburn Street) ...
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[Note: The son, Thomas McGRATH is shown on NSW Death Index as having parents named "Peter and Margaret McGRATH". ???
Can see nothing further which gives an indication to ages of this Peter and Thomas - nor a birth record for a Thomas in NSW. ]
More information below for interested parties re the above post...
Thomas was born in NZ he was 12 years old when he died in Sydney on the 7 September 1885, about 3 months after his father Peter who was 47 when he died 17 June 1885.
Name: Thomas McGrath
Birth Date: Jul-Aug-Sep 1873
Folio Number: 1115
Source Information:
Ancestry.com. New Zealand Birth Index, 1840-1950 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014.
Original data: New Zealand Birth Index, 1840–1950. Microfiche.
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Hello Juliannet
I have some more information to contribute to this thread.
Please just bear with me (for a short time) whilst I "dig it up" ... and read through and refresh my memory. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Julie
Am assuming that you have the NSW death certificate for young Thomas McGRATH ?
Are you able to add here please, further details ?
e.g.
* Mother's maiden name
* Years in NSW (for Thomas)
* Informant to death
* Place of death (if it is other than the Weymss Street address)
etc. etc.
[Please just post "transcribed" info from cert. (as posting full image of actual cert. contravenes rules of this forum. ] Thanks.
~ Lu
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Hi Julie
Am assuming that you have the NSW death certificate for young Thomas McGRATH ?
Are you able to add here please, further details ?
e.g.
* Mother's maiden name
* Years in NSW (for Thomas)
* Informant to death
* Place of death (if it is other than the Weymss Street address)
Registration Number: 1945/019786
Date & Place of Death: 1945 14th June - District Hospital Parramatta - late of 297 Holbeche Road Blacktown - Blacktown Shire.
Name & Occupation: MAURICE MCGRATH - Dealer
Sex & Age: Male 78 years
Cause of death (a) Congestive cardiac failure (b) Hypertension
Duration of last illness: --------
Medical attendant: Elizabeth M Fisher (Registered)
When he last saw deceased: 13th June 1945
Name & Occupation of father: Maurice McGrath - not known (I think this is incorrect, it appears that Edith knew little about her fathers past, which fits with my own fathers lack of information about this side of the family. Dad always said. "We know nothing about Mums dad, we reckon he was a black fella!")
Name & maiden surname of mother: - not known
Informant: Certified by Edith Hill - Daughter - 314 Parramatta Road Stanmore
Particulars of registration: 12th July 1945 - Parramatta
When & where buried; name of undertaker: 1945 15th July - Church of England Cemetery Prospect -C.J. Innes of the firm Charles Innes & Son
Where born and how long in Australian Colonies or States: New Zealand
Place of marriage, age, and to whom: Humula N.S.W. - Not Known - Sarah Oakman - Widower
Children of marriage:
Alice 51 (my grandmother); Edward 49; Edith 46; Peter 44; Roy 41; Clement 39; Vera 36; May 34; Alfred 32; Bert 30; living. Two males deceased (I know one was named Maurice DOB 1896, died in WW1 30 March 1918 - France)
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Hi Julie
Thanks for the information regarding Maurice McGRATH.
* What I was actually meaning, was can you supply further details from the death certificate of young Thomas McGRATH, please ?
[I feel that any info we can get for this McGRATH family might be helpful. ]
Cheers
~ Lu
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PS : I have just added a post to Sandy's "Margaret ROGERS (McGRATH)" thread on the Australian board.
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Hi Sandy,
I have located the death certificates for Peter, Matilda & Maurice McGrath.
They will take 4 weeks to be received by me from the BDM NSW.
I'll let you know the outcome.
Type Registration Number Name(s)
1 Certificate 1260/1885 PETER MCGRATH
2 Certificate 1216/1882 MATILDA MCGRATH
3 Certificate 19786/1945 MAURICE MCGRATH
Unfortunately the Matilda McGRATH death in 1882 is not related to the Peter McGRATH family.
[Above Matilda McGRATH died on 16 June 1882, aged 25 years, of Surry Hills, Sydney, was the wife of a Frederick McGRATH (and the daughter of Henry and Matilda BOURNE) ]
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Sorry Lucy, I don't have Thomas's death certificate only his brother Maurice s.
However I have found police records regarding Peter Stephen McGrath (Jnr) at the age of ten in Sydney. He was arrested for break, enter & steal on 31st October 1888. Police report says Mother Margaret was widowed living on £2 a week with her son and daughter.
The report also states there are FOUR (4) other children in the family, three working and one in a convent.
Peter Seniors death certificate says he had 6 children - 4 male & 2 female (no deaths).
I have located 3 sons Maurice, Thomas and Peter.
I located the baptism certificate for 1 daughter, Margaret Ann McGrath (Jnr) this week.
Thus 1 female & 1 male are yet to be found.
The report goes on to say the mother was of doubtful character as she had been arrested by the police previously. The boy was constantly in the streets and sleeping out at night, he is recorded as having a speech impediment and rather backward at school (Sacred Heart), he was Roman Catholic. He didn't like living at home because he had too much to do.
He was sent to work on a dairy farm and deserted at age 16, was sent back again and released 9th March 1894, Peter died in Liverpool 1946. I have not yet found what he did in the years between.
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2 Certificate 1216/1882 MATILDA MCGRATH
Unfortunately the Matilda McGRATH death in 1882 is not related to the Peter McGRATH family.
[Above Matilda McGRATH died on 16 June 1882, aged 25 years, of Surry Hills, Sydney, was the wife of a Frederick McGRATH (and the daughter of Henry and Matilda BOURNE) ]
Thank you I discovered this when I received her death certificate. It appears that Malitda McCloy/Turner changed her name to Margaret which has caused considerable confusion in locating her and her children and indeed Peter McGrath!
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Hi Julie
Thanks for the additional information.
* On the death certificate for Peter McGRATH 1885, are the ages of his children given (or is it just the male / female info.) ??
I can tell you that the other son was named John McGRATH (will add the source of that info in another post.)
I'll also add further for the child Margaret Ann(e) McGRATH [whom I believe is the person later known as Margaret Beatrice McGRATH (Mrs ROGERS) which is Sandy's interest. ]
~ Lu
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Matilda "McCLOY" :
Incidentally the surname of Matilda was actually McCOY as is shown on the New Zealand Marriage Index.
* Did I see on Ancestry (maybe) a copy of this 1866 marriage cert. (McGRATH / McCoy) posted to a family tree ??? (Not sure if perhaps it's yours ? )
~ Lu
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As requested information from the Australian RootsChat site
Hi Sandy,
Sorry for the long delay.
I have the the NSW death certificate for Peter McGrath. 1885/001260
Died 16th June 1885 St Vincents Hospital, a contractor, aged 47 years. Father Maurice a farmer. Certified by his son Maurice McGrath. Roman Catholic buried at Rookwood. Born Waterford Ireland. Time in Australia 1 year. Married in Hokitika to Margaret Adams 1860. Children of marriage 4 males and 2 females.
Although I believe Peters son Maurice (my great grandfather) either made a mistake about his mother Margaret's last name 'Adams' (should read Turner) or Peter remarried a Margaret Adams. I know very little was known about Peter and his family, indeed my father knew zero.
I can confirm that when Peter McGrath & the widow Matilda McCloy formally Turner where married in April 1866 at Hokitika they were already expecting baby Maurice, born 25 Nov 1866.
Warm Regards Julie
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Just wonderful, finally these ancestors dancing around us are coming together. This is great news for Sandy's search. I'm happy to be able to plug in John McGrath now, thanks, I look forward to what you post. Also I believe you have found Peter & Matilda's marriage certificate on my ancestry profile (my bad - wrong spelling)
Also there are no ages of children on Peter McGrath death certificate
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Hi Julie
Yes, it's not unexpected to get conflicting information from a range of certificates - particularly from death certificates.
I do have much more to add here re: Peter McGRATH (Maurice's father) ... and can give you information for his family, but will leave that till later.
* Do you have a copy of Maurice's Marriage Certificate (to Sarah OAKMAN -was it ? ).
Interested to know what details he gave in respect of his mother, especially ? And also to know who the witnesses to the marriage were (maybe they were family members ?).
~ Lu
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Ooops ... our posts just crossed ... but thanks for the confirmation previously given. ;)
Yes, have lots to add ... but I've got a cranky, misbehaving computer at the moment so it could be slow going. Just bear with me. ;)
~ Lu
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I do have much more to add here re: Peter McGRATH (Maurice's father) ... and can give you information for his family, but will leave that till later. Really excited about this statement :-)
* Do you have a copy of Maurice's Marriage Certificate (to Sarah OAKMAN -was it ? ).
Interested to know what details he gave in respect of his mother, especially ? And also to know who the witnesses to the marriage were (maybe they were family members ?). I thought I did, but no - I'm ordering it now!
~ Lu
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Hi Julie ... did you know about the transcription service (offered by several agents) for NSW B, D and M. certificates ? It's an awful lot cheaper than purchasing the actual certificates.
Details are available on the NSW BDM website. [I've used one of the agents (the last-named one on the list) on a number of occasions to help track down my AUS rellies in the past and have been well pleased with the service offered. You also get a more immediate result with the transcriptions able to be emailed to you. ] ] ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Julie ... did you know about the transcription service (offered by several agents) for NSW B, D and M. certificates ?
Thanks Lu, I owe you one :-)
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Hello Julie & Lucy, Thankyou so much for all the research you are doing. I have been meaning to get back on the search for some time and you have delivered the inspiration. Julie requested a copy of the Baptism of Margaret ( Mrs Peter McGrath) McGrath which i am about to email but thought i would put the info down in a post. This was an adult Baptism. It appears Margaret was converted from another denomination when she married Peter McGrath. The baptism took place on Friday the 14th of Dec 1877 in the parish of Rangiora, South island, New Zealand. the doc stats she was born 1st of Jan 1800 but i was advised that this was a generic date used when age was not given. Margaret was obviously not 77 at the time. I haven't had time to get my head around all the new info but i did notice that one of her childrens name was Margaret Anne Mcgrath and Lucy you said you believe this was my great great grandmother Margaret Beatrice . Why would she have changed her middle name? was this common? Thanks again Sandy
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Hi Sandy ... welcome back. :)
I can't of course say conclusively why Margaret might have changed her middle name - perhaps though it may have been to distinguish herself from someone of the same name; or (as sometimes happened), people modified their names slightly (or even completely) so as not to be easily traced.
Names changes though were a reasonably common occurrence. It wasn't deemed to be a criminal offence, and all that was required was that a person be able to prove that "that was the name they were commonly known as". (Apparently that is still acceptable today.) Some of course went to the trouble of changing names officially by deed poll, but that was an expensive exercise, out of the reach of many.
Now I need to scroll back to beginning of this thread to check on something ... so will continue this in my next post. >
~ Lu
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Hi Sandy
Earlier in this search we'd steered you the way of a baptism for a Margaret McGRATH (bapt. 22 March 1974) which seemed a distinct possibility, given at that time we only had a name for the mother and there were no births with a father named "Vincent". That child though was ultimately eliminated.
Next on my list of "possibles" was the child "Margaret Anne McGRATH" - birth registered in 1875 - parents, Margaret Jane and Peter McGRATH.
Have been able to determine from the NZ online Birth Index (where it's possible by "tinkering" with dates, to arrive at the birthdate recorded on the birth registration), that this Margaret Anne was born on "21 March 1875". That date is of course a year and a day from that calculated on her death cert. ... and it seems that she was more likely to have been 26 years (rather than 25) when she married in 1901. [Again, not all that unusual to find on official records that people have "forgotten" their current age ... or that for some reason they've "tinkered" with their exact age, raising or lowering it to suit circumstances. ]
I've since checked records at the library, to find that the birth of this "Margaret Anne McGRATH - 1875" - was registered at Christchurch. ["Rangiora" was a registration district also at that time but the Registrar's office at Christchurch is not too distant and it may have suited the person registering the birth, to lodge it at Christchurch ? Incidentally, in 1877, Peter Stephen McGRATH's birth was registered at Rangiora.]
Refer next post for additional info. >
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Hi Sandy
If you wish to purchase the birth record for "Margaret Anne McGRATH - 1875" from NZ BDM, I've added the reference number here. We always recommend that you obtain the "pintout" copy of the registration (as opposed to the actual certificate) as it tends to offer more information (and happily is less expensive - $20 odd NZ. )
NZ BDM reference
1875 / 9758- McGRATH - Margaret Anne - Parents: Margaret Jane and Peter MCGRATH
NOTE: Unfortunately an 1875 NZ Birth record will only give you the following information.
Name of child / date and place of birth / Father's name and occupation / Mother's name and maiden name / name and, sometimes the address, of the person registering the birth / date and place of registration. However, from the year 1876*, further info is included - e.g. the places of birth of the parents / their ages / and the place and date of their marriage.
re: (Mother) Margaret / Margaret Jane McGRATH (alias TURNER etc. )
I'm picking it's going to be a mission of sorts to find further for this woman. ;D To date we have a variety of names ... with the only indication of her birth year so far coming from the 1866 NZ marriage - Matilda McCoy / Peter McGRATH when she was apparently aged 30 (born c. 1836).
It seems likely that the Peter Stephen MCGRATH who died in Sydney in 1946 (s/o of a Margaret and Peter) is possibly the chap of same name born at Rangiora NZ in 1877.
Just a suggestion ... but by purchasing his NZ birth record "printout" also, you would get the additional information relating to parents (as explained above *) ... which in turn may assist with tracking (mother) Margaret. ;)
1877 / 4578 - McGRATH - Peter Stephen - Parents: Margaret and Peter
~ Lu
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Sandy, the Catholic Diocese of Christchurch, Baptism Index, also has the following entries :
[I seem to remember copies of these cost only about $NZ 5.00 ? ]
No. 2716 - McGRATH - Margaret Ann - baptised 3 April 1875 - Place: Cathedral
Parish ID - 18
[Though second name missing the "e", I think this is probably Margaret Anne McGRATH given her birthdate and this baptism just a week or so later ?]
No. 3112 - McGRATH - Peter Stephen - baptised 13 May 1877 - Place: Cathedral
Parish ID - 18
~ Lu
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....However I have found police records regarding Peter Stephen McGrath (Jnr) at the age of ten in Sydney. He was arrested for break, enter & steal on 31st October 1888. Police report says Mother Margaret was widowed living on £2 a week with her son and daughter......
The report also states there are FOUR (4) other children in the family, three working and one in a convent.
The report goes on to say the mother was of doubtful character as she had been arrested by the police previously......
Hi Julie
Could you let us have the source of the above police record, please ? [From your Reply # 60 ]
[I have found later reports re: a Peter McGRATH (bc 1878) at Boggabri, via the NSW Police Gazette entries (ex Ancestry) ... just can't locate, (and I've also tried the newspapers), the above report which mentions his mother Margaret ??? ]
Thanks. :)
~ Lu
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Hi, Not sure who's searching here. Have you tried the site "Papers Past" an excellent NZ site for early newspaper searches. Also Ancestry.com has NZ Electoral Rolls.
Regards
clancam37
Hi Sandy
If you wish to purchase the birth record for "Margaret Anne McGRATH - 1875" from NZ BDM, I've added the reference number here. We always recommend that you obtain the "pintout" copy of the registration (as opposed to the actual certificate) as it tends to offer more information (and happily is less expensive - $20 odd NZ. )
NZ BDM reference
1875 / 9758- McGRATH - Margaret Anne - Parents: Margaret Jane and Peter MCGRATH
NOTE: Unfortunately an 1875 NZ Birth record will only give you the following information.
Name of child / date and place of birth / Father's name and occupation / Mother's name and maiden name / name and, sometimes the address, of the person registering the birth / date and place of registration. However, from the year 1876*, further info is included - e.g. the places of birth of the parents / their ages / and the place and date of their marriage.
re: (Mother) Margaret / Margaret Jane McGRATH (alias TURNER etc. )
I'm picking it's going to be a mission of sorts to find further for this woman. ;D To date we have a variety of names ... with the only indication of her birth year so far coming from the 1866 NZ marriage - Matilda McCoy / Peter McGRATH when she was apparently aged 30 (born c. 1836).
It seems likely that the Peter Stephen MCGRATH who died in Sydney in 1946 (s/o of a Margaret and Peter) is possibly the chap of same name born at Rangiora NZ in 1877.
Just a suggestion ... but by purchasing his NZ birth record "printout" also, you would get the additional information relating to parents (as explained above *) ... which in turn may assist with tracking (mother) Margaret. ;)
1877 / 4578 - McGRATH - Peter Stephen - Parents: Margaret and Peter
~ Lu
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Hi Sandy and Julie
Before I post further info here, just wanted to advise that it has been sourced using the following variations of the surname :
McGRATH / MAGRATH / MGRATH - which often appears in search results as M'GRATH
The name McGRATH is often also pronounced as "McGRAW" (though I haven't found anything for this family under that spelling. )
Where possible in following posts, I will give the name as it has been written in the particular source - to save having to explain the variations in spelling. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi clancam37
Thanks for your post. ;)
Sandy feet (Sandy) and Juliannet (Julie) are the persons researching this McGRATH family.
I am in New Zealand and have a handle on the very many resources which are available here (and also to some extent, those available in Australia ... and via Ancestry etc. )
This thread has recently "sprung to life" again with new information provided by Julie which offers the hope that progress can at last be made. :D I had contributed to the earlier searching by Sandy at which time I'd made copious notes (thankfully retained) ... though not all that information had been conveyed in this thread. I'm about to start adding that now. :)
Cheers
~ Lu
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From NSW Police Gazettes [Source: Ancestry ]
Publication Date : 15 April 1885 [Excerpt from article. ]
McGRATH - Peter ... warrant issued by Redfern Bench for arrest of Peter McGRATH, charged with unlawfully deserting his wife Margaret, leaving her without means of support.
McGRATH is 35* years of age, 5 feet, 9 or ten inches high, stout build, round shoulders, dark hair, dark brown beard, whiskers and moustache. A contractor.
[Note: Obviously the age given is somewhat incorrect (maybe it was guessed at ? ) The police information here though ties in with a newspaper report of the Court hearing published in > "Evening News" (NSW) - 18 April 1885. In that Peter McGRATH is shown as a "road contractor" ... and his sons give testimony in the Courtroom. ]
Refer next post for additional details >>
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[Source: ] Australian newspapers at TROVE website :
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
"Evening News" (NSW) - 18 April 1885 - page 5 [Search on : "Peter McGRATH" ]
[Excerpt from article labelled - "Redfern Police Court - A Peripatetic Wife" : Some of the content is a tad "unsavoury" ... so only adding the bits of importance, here.]
Peter McGRATH, road contractor was sued by Margaret McGRATH, his wife. Margaret claimed 40s per week sustenance.
Peter McGrath (Testimony via his lawyer) : .... stated that Margaret went to the Melbourne Cup and to New Zealand and was locked up in Wellington [possibly Wellington NZ ?] for having been dressed up in men's clothes, had taken L 15 (pounds) out of her husband's pocket and received L 50 (pounds) unknown to him.
For the defence (Peter's lawyer) ... it was alleged that Mrs McGRATH never stopped at home, unless ill ... she went out every night ... [continues] ...
Maurice McGRATH and John McGRATH, sons of the parties, testified to their father's general good behaviour to their mother.
The stipendiary declined to make an order. The application was dismissed.*
---------------
(* The NSW Police Gazette - 22 April 1885 - page 116 : Records that Peter McGRATH charged on warrant with wife desertion, has been arrested by Constable WALKER of Sydney Police - Discharged.
Presumably this [ given it says "Discharged" ], is a record of the outcome of the Police Court hearing on 15 April 1885 ? )
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Also from NSW Police Gazette - dated 10 September 1884* :
Peter McGRATH charged on warrant issued at Wellington, New Zealand, with absconding with property belonging to his creditors, has been arrested in Sydney by Detective ANDREW. Remanded to Wellington. Bail allowed.
[* Note: Ancestry has this indexed as Wellington, in New South Wales. ]
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And from "Evening News" (NSW) - 9 September 1884 - page 2 :
Peter M'GRATH, contractor and lately hotel-keeper at Wellington ... appeared on remand at Central Police Court on Tuesday ...
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Hello Lucy,
Wow what a great lot of info. I see where you are going with the birth certs of both Margaret Stephen and will order them asap. Do you suggest getting bothe sources - NZBDM & Catholic baptism to get the full picture? I had come across some of this court news previously but had no way of making a connection at that stage. It really seems to be my relatives and I can see why Margaret JNR may have changed her middle name to maybe distance herself from some of her happenings in Sydney. Anyway hard to judge when you aren't there.
Regards Sandy
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Hi Sandy
Have quite a lot more to come but thought I'd let you both digest this lot, for starters. Trying also to add it in some sort of order to make it easier to follow. ;)
I say if you can afford the baptism records as well as the birth printouts, then go for it. (I'm a "need to have the full picture" kinda gal, anyway. ) ;D
Gosh, I do hope we can get some more info on (mother) Margaret (or Margaret Jane, or Matilda McCoy ... or TURNER ... or whoever she really was ??) I've always been puzzled as to why, on the Rangiora baptism document, she was described as "alias" TURNER, rather than say, "nee" TURNER or "formerly" TURNER. The word "alias" I always associate with criminal activity. :D
~ Lu
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Hello Ladies!
You will locate Peter Stephen McGrath in the (Ancestry)
New South Wales Australia Entrance Books for The Vernon and The Sobraon 1867-1911. Book VIII. 339 pg 429
Ref; 2094
Additional information in
Book VI. 429 pg 339
Also see (Trove)
NSW Police Gazette 1854-1930, Jan 1894 pg 14 (bottom left hand corner)
Upon explaining all Lucy located last week about Peter and Margaret to my husband he added his own theory. He believes Matilda Turner was Margaret's alias or working name in Hokitika. He believes she was there to work, after the death of her first husband McCloy, alas, though, not as a miner or barmaid.
Myself having just located and read the Redfern Police Court minutes, believe he may be on the right track. Hence why my grandfather never mentioned his family. I guess his (Maurice, first born) marriage cert. will suggest one way or the other an interpretation we can either refute or infer for history.
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Hello Julie,
If possible can you please provide the link to the 2 bits of information in your last post. I searched both bits of info but was unable to locate them.
Regards Sandy
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Hi Sandy,
This is the link to the Redfern Court Case.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111180834?searchTerm=peter%20mcgrath&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-decade=188|||l-australian=y|||l-year=1885
Items from my ancestry account are in your e-mail :)
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I a little bit of info on the family today.
They lived in Rangioria as you already know.
This link contains a small reference as noted below...
overseer to Peter McGrath, the railway contractor on the Amberley-Waipara Railway
http://winsomegriffin.com/Cone/GeorgeCone1.htm
This link bottom of pg 399, contains reference to the property as it was purchased by the bank
http://libraries.waimakariri.govt.nz/Libraries/ebooks_-_Rangiora/Chapter_22_-_The_Schools.sflb.ashx
This link contains numerous references to Peter McGrath and his Te Aro Reclamation
http://www.nzpictures.co.nz/wainuiomatasinclairloco.pdf
Further reference on page 191
These works were begun in April 1879 by the Wellington contractor, Peter McGrath, whose two hundred workers were a great boon to the young
http://libraries.waimakariri.govt.nz/Libraries/ebooks_-_Rangiora/Chapter_12_-_Town_and_Country.sflb.ashx
This is a link to Rookwood (I have found 3 Margaret McGraths) I have found one NSW BDM death for a Margaret J McGrath from Redfern and a few TROVE death/funeral notices.
http://search.catholiccemeteries.org.au/default.aspx (This is from Rookwood)
Surname GivenNames Age ServiceDate Location Type
Select Mc Grath Peter 46 17/06/1885 SEC*M1*CC**464 Burial
Select Mc Grath Margaret J Unk 01/03/1908 SEC*M2*C**362 Burial
Select Mc Grath Margaret Unk 22/06/1887 SEC*M1*F**35 Burial
Select Mc Grath Margaret 65 24/12/1900 SEC*M1*4**1099 Burial ->->-> (3 yrs older than Margaret might be) Address is 46 Bay St Glebe (However mother of Patrick) yet this address fits with a police Gazette :-/
From BDM NSW
Registration Number Family Name Given Name(s) Father's Given Name(s) Mother's Given Name(s) District PDF Availability
3036/1908 MCGRATH MARGARET J DENIS J ANNIE REDFERN Unavailable
If the family turned their backs on her following the court case she could be buried anywhere...
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Marriage Certificate for Maurice McGrath & Sarah Jane Oakman
NSW MARRIAGE REGISTRATION TRANSCRIPTION
REF NO 1893/7091
GROOM Maurice McGrath
STATUS Bachelor
PLACE OF BIRTH Not stated
OCCUPATION Farmer
AGE Not stated
USUAL RESIDENCE Humula
FATHER Not stated
OCCUPATION Not stated
MOTHER Not stated
BRIDE Sarah Jane Oakman
STATUS Spinster
PLACE OF BIRTH Not stated
OCCUPATION Living with parents
AGE Under 21 years
USUAL RESIDENCE Humula
FATHER Thomas Oakman
OCCUPATION Not stated
MOTHER Not stated
DATE OF MARRIAGE 11 Jul 1893
PLACE OF MARRIAGE Simmons St Wagga Wagga
RELIGION Presbyterian
WITNESSES Edward Oakman, Emma Jane Oakman
MINISTER J Macintyre
THE CONSENT OF SARAH JANE OAKMAN, BEING THE MOTHER OF THE BRIDE, WAS GIVEN IN WRITING TO THE MARRIAGE OF SARAH JANE OAKMAN WITH MAURICE MCGRATH, THE SAID SARAH JANE OAKMAN BEING UNDER THE AGE OF 21 YEARS.
Interesting to note that despite Sarah's mother giving written permission for her daughter to marry no mother is not noted on the marriage certificate. Looks like sloppy book keeping by the minister. Which makes it difficult to assume Maurice was estranged from his family because there is no reference to his parents...
Do we have any BDM or baptism for the other siblings?
Regards Julie
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Hi Julie
Yes, the 1893 marriage record is disappointing. :(
* Are you aware of your Maurice McGRATH having had another marriage (i.e. after the death of Sarah Jane in 1930) ?? [Yes I realise that Maurice's death certificate notes only one wife, Sarah Jane nee OAKMAN. ]
The reason I ask is because of the following >
TROVE - "The Cumberland Argus & Fruitgrowers Advocate" (NSW) - 26 November 1941 - page 12
Mrs Frances McGRATH (66) wife of Mr Maurice McGRATH of Blacktown, died last week at Parramatta District Hospital ... [burial at C of E Cemetery, Prospect. ]
NSW - Marriage
1937 / 22628 -- Maurice McGRATH - Frances Sydney BURGESS
Reg. Woollahra, NSW.
NSW Death
1941 / 27871
McGRATH - Frances Sydney
d/o John Algernon and Elizabeth BURGESS
Reg: Parramatta, NSW
TAS Birth
BURGESS - Frances Sydney
born: 10 January 1875
Parents: John Algernon BURGESS - Elizabeth WELLS
Reg: Spring Bay, Tasmania
~ Lu
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NSW Electoral rolls :
1937 and 1943 NSW - Robertson
Maurice McGRATH, Holbecke Road, Blacktown, Farmer.
Frances Sydney MGRATH does not appear on above rolls (in 1937 she's living at Rose Bay - Wentworth, Bellevue Hill, electorate). Would seem she missed inclusion in 1937 roll for Blacktown, probably because she married after the date electoral rolls closed ? There doesn't appear to be a 1940 e/roll.
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Julie - it might be an idea to firstly check burials at Prospect Cemetery to ascertain whether Maurice and Frances are buried together ?
[Noting from newspaper articles TROVE > "Daily Advertiser" (Wagga Wagga) - 20 and 21 January 1930 > that Sarah Jane McGRATH (1st wife) was buried at Wagga Cemetery. ]
Then there's the option of purchasing a transcription for the 1937 marriage of Maurice McGRATH. ;)
~ Lu
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Do we have any BDM or baptism for the other siblings?
Regards Julie
Yes .... and just to save repeating information, please refer to earlier posts here > Replies # 73 - 74 & 75.
~ Lu
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Hello Lucy,
I have ordered both Margaret and Peter jnr's birth certs which should arrive in the next couple of days. I will post info asap.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy
That's great ! Look forward to seeing what they yield. ;)
~ Lu
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PS ... have still to respond to Julie's earlier replies @ 86 and 89. ::) (Will try to do later today - have family arriving from Oz tomorrow so bear with me if I don't get back this way for a while. ) ;)
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Hi Lucy & Sandy,
I walked the Prospect (St Bartholomew's Church) cemetery today. It's not a very big cemetery, there were many graves without readable headstones. Unfortunately my husband and I were not able to locate any McGrath's. The State Library has a microfilm of the burials there, although I was at the library yesterday I didn't think to check. I'll need to make another trip up to Sydney library.
Julie
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Hello All, Just recieved the two birth certs for Margaret Anne and Peter Stephen. It would appear that these people are brother and sister. I have attached both certs and it does confirm the McCloy/ Turner connections to Margaret Jane McGrath. It also lists her birth place in england but am finding it difficult to read. I have attached both docs. Maybe someone has a suggestion? This should help with tracing her back further.
Regards Sandy
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Hi Sandy
... great. ;)
Looks to me like Margaret McGRATH (nee TURNER) was born at Newcastle-upon-Tyne, ENG.
Will see what further info I can find.
~ Lu
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Hello Family Researchers of Peter McGrath,
I too have been searching for Peter McGrath (my second great grandfather) born 1838 in Waterford Ireland.
A few things come to light after reading your posts.
5. I have Peter leaving Wellington and arriving in Australia, on his own, aboard the Wakatipu, on 22 March 1878 - which fits with your posts re leaving NZ following bankruptcy solo.
Hi Julie ... have just been reading back over this thread and noticed I should have offered (earlier) a correction to the above :
Certainly there is a person named Peter McGRATH who travelled from Wellington NZ to Sydney by the "Wakatipu" in March 1878 (actual date on ship's manifest is 21 March 1878) however that doesn't "fit with any of the posts" made in this thread.
Peter McGRATH was declared bankrupt in 1884 - and testimony in his Court case, states he departed Wellington NZ on or about 1 March 1884* per the ship "Hauroto" destined for Sydney.
Edited to add: * Refer "Evening Post" (Wellington) - 17 September 1884 - Magistrate's Court -- Peter M'GRATH's case.
~ Lu
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Hi Lu,
Thank you, you are indeed correct. Our posts have come along-way since my first posts! At that point I was still unconvinced that "my Peter McGrath" was the road contractor. It's a very apt time to say thank you to both you and Sandy for all the hours of research that has got us to this point.
Warm Regards
Julie
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I have ordered the marriage certificate of Maurice and Frances. I'm hoping to find more about Maurice's Mum, Margaret Turner.
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Hi Julie ... yes we certainly have made some progress recently thanks to the info you supplied.
Lots more digging to be done though. ;) I do so love these searches which are shrouded in mystery. This McGRATH case has some strong parallels with one of my own families > my Australian-born gg/grandmother left a husband and babe in her wake and fled to the West Coast in 1865, later moving to Christchurch. Had it not been for an extremely dedicated (smallish) group of RootsChatters who embraced my search, I doubt her story, (riddled with myriad scandalous goings-on of a whole family both here and in Oz), would ever have been uncovered.
As you will have learnt already, finding some of our families, doesn't always come easy. I'm an advocate of getting "my hands" on as many official documents as possible - though at times the likes of B, M and D certs can prove disappointing (and misleading) - in the general scheme of things, they usually (eventually) assist in building a bigger picture. And of course there are a wealth of other resources which we can tap into. But it really is a matter of just chipping away; gathering all manner of information; the process of elimination ; working on hunches and theories, thinking "outside the square", etc. .... then attempting to put the "jigsaw" together.
Here's hoping we can continue on this roll. ;)
~ Lu
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.... However I have found police records regarding Peter Stephen McGrath (Jnr) at the age of ten in Sydney. He was arrested for break, enter & steal on 31st October 1888. Police report says Mother Margaret was widowed living on £2 a week with her son and daughter.
The report also states there are FOUR (4) other children in the family, three working and one in a convent.
You will locate Peter Stephen McGrath in the (Ancestry)
New South Wales Australia Entrance Books for The Vernon and The Sobraon 1867-1911. Book VIII. 339 pg 429
Ref; 2094
Additional information in
Book VI. 429 pg 339
Also see (Trove)
NSW Police Gazette 1854-1930, Jan 1894 pg 14 (bottom left hand corner)
You made a really good find with the above information, Julie. Well done. :)
Comment: Whilst the police records only give the name as "Peter McGRATH", and the date of birth shown, is incorrect*, I think we can now safely assume that this is the child Peter Stephen McGRATH who was born at Rangiora, NZ. [His mother is mentioned as "Margaret" - she was a widow with 5 children as at October 1888 / it provides confirmation Peter was born in New Zealand : This tallies with info shown in the birth and death certs. obtained and the knowledge that a McGRATH child (Thomas) had died in 1885.]
[* NZ Birth printout provided by Sandy - confirms that Peter Stephen McGRATH was born at Rangiora on 8 April 1877. The NSW Police Gazette summary gives his birthdate as March 1878. ] I wouldn't be too worried about an incorrect d.o.b. - many parents with large families often got these confused. NZ school records are testament to this. ;)
~ Lu
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This is a link to Rookwood (I have found 3 Margaret McGraths) I have found one NSW BDM death for a Margaret J McGrath from Redfern and a few TROVE death/funeral notices.
http://search.catholiccemeteries.org.au/default.aspx (This is from Rookwood)
Surname GivenNames Age ServiceDate Location Type
Select Mc Grath Peter 46 17/06/1885 SEC*M1*CC**464 Burial
Select Mc Grath Margaret J Unk 01/03/1908 SEC*M2*C**362 Burial
Select Mc Grath Margaret Unk 22/06/1887 SEC*M1*F**35 Burial
Select Mc Grath Margaret 65 24/12/1900 SEC*M1*4**1099 Burial ->->-> (3 yrs older than Margaret might be) Address is 46 Bay St Glebe (However mother of Patrick) yet this address fits with a police Gazette :-/
From BDM NSW
Registration Number Family Name Given Name(s) Father's Given Name(s) Mother's Given Name(s) District PDF Availability
3036/1908 MCGRATH MARGARET J DENIS J ANNIE REDFERN Unavailable
Hi Julie ... pretty sure we can eliminate all of these Margarets. :(
1. The first one > Margaret J. McGRATH -- died 1908 > appears to have been the infant daughter of Annie M. and Denis J. McGRATH (born in 1907) -- and is also the same as the one you've given the NSW BMD death reference for. [She shares a plot with her maternal grandmother, Margaret YAW and another daughter of Annie M and Dennis J. McGRATH. ]
2. Margaret McGRATH - no age - d. 22 June 1887 - shares a plot with Margaret COKER (d. 1943) who appears to have been her daughter (d/o of Margaret and Martin). A memorial inscription (including COKER name) reads "Margaret McGRATH, 21 June 1887, erected by her children." [Also noting that 1887 is too early - Margaret, the mother of Peter S. McGRATH was apparently still alive in October of 1888. ]
3. (Highlighted in red) : This Margaret McGRATH - 65 - d. 24/12/1900 is buried with a John CROWLEY (. 1872 - aged 21 year 8 months - s/o Margaret and John). Cemetery record states memorial to John CROWLEY, erected by his mother (whom I assume is the Margaret McGRATH in same plot ? ) Funeral notices (6 January 1872) show that John CROWLEY - late residence 74 Campbell Parade - had a stepfather named Denis McGRATH and a brother-in-law named Thomas EVANS.
~ Lu
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(This is from Rookwood)
Surname GivenNames Age ServiceDate Location Type
Select Mc Grath Margaret 65 24/12/1900 SEC*M1*4**1099 Burial ->->-> (3 yrs older than Margaret might be) Address is 46 Bay St Glebe (However mother of Patrick) yet this address fits with a police Gazette :-/
Hi Julie
Could you please just explain re above Margaret
* Where you found the Bay Street address - and its significance to the Police Gazette (how it fits) ?
* How you know that this Margaret had a son named Patrick ?
Thanks
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu, on two accounts. One: Thank you for sharing your ancestry find with us, what a great out out come for you! Two: Thank you for paying forward the help you received as a result of this find to us. It does not go unnoticed that your research for the McGrath family is due to your own personal an inner fortitude to assist and help others. Pay it forward comes to mind. I am an advocate of this model, and pay it forward I shall :-)
I dropped into this thread because it held names relevant to my search, I had no idea I was going to meet wonderful people such as yourself and Sandy. I'm humble and very grateful.
Warm regards
Julie
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Lu, I have no idea where I came to the Glebe conclusion. I'm searching through my references now and will get back to you.
Julie
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Hi Sandy & Lu,
Transcript of Maurice McGrath's second marriage just arrived.
Maurice was remarried at the age of 70 to Frances Burgess a spinster of 62 years of age, after divorcing Sarah Oakman.
What a shock, I didn't see that coming!
More importantly, Maurice didn't include any mother or father on his marriage certificate to Sarah, but he has on his marriage to Francis (attached)
His father is recorded as a contractor - Peter McGrath
His mother as Margaret Adams.
This fits with Sandy's quest to find Margaret Adams I think?
Does this mean Margaret remarried an Adams after Peters death.
Remembering that Peter & Margaret's first born was Maurice who was only 19 when his father Peter died. Could mean that the marriage certificates for all their younger children would read mothers name as Adams.
Getting exciting now
Warm Regards
Julie
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Hi Julie
Well, well, well, ... that is a surprise. ::)
But of course he wasn't divorced from Sarah (he was her widower - she died about 1930 didn't she ?)
Which means that he'd had a second marriage (after Sarah's death) ... and that the marriage to Frances BURGESS in 1937, was in fact his third. ;)
~ Lu
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Have found this marriage ?
NSW Marriages
McGRATH - Maurice
DAVIES - Annie
Year: 1932
Registration # : 15511
Place: Culcairn*, NSW
[* Culcairn is between Albury and Wagga Wagga ... and given he lived with Sarah at or near Wagga, I'd guess at the above being his second marriage ? ]
No need though to obtain a transcript of this second marriage, ideally a copy of marriage record should be on file with the Divorce papers. See next >>
~ Lu
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This is the only Maurice McGRATH divorce I could see on the NSW State records website.
# 974 / 1936
Divorce Papers
Maurice MCGRATH - Annie McGRATH
Start: 8 June 1936
End: 7 October 1937
[Note: As Maurice's name appears first, I should think that he was the Petitioner ... which fits with what is recorded on his marriage to Frances BURGESS. Their marriage date 27 October 1937, also is just a few weeks after the Decree Absolute (in the Divorce) was apparently handed down. ]
Hopefully this link will take you to the info page >
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item1155693
~ Lu
Edit: see next >
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Hi Julie
Try this to locate Divorce file >
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/
Scroll down to "DIVORCE" ... search using the "Archives Investigator".
I'm not familiar with accessing NSW Divorce records so will leave you to do the reading meantime.
I'm heading out of town for the day, but hopefully will get back to this thread tomorrow. ;)
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu, you are amazing!
I didn't give a marriage in the middle, between Sarah and Frances a passing thought. I spent some time looking for divorce info for Sarah and Maurice. I really need more experience at family research :) However I have a great teacher :D
Warm Regards
Julie
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Hi Ladies,
I have just been doing some figures in relation to Peter Stephens arrest document.
It notes Margaret lived with her son and daughter in 1888, and there are 4 other children in the family, 3 working and 1 in a convent.
Maurice would have been aged 22 = working and Margaret lives with him or John
John I know nothing about & no assumption is necessary for this thread = working
Also an unknown daughter I'll assume to be 21 = working and Margaret lives with her
Margaret Jnr 13 years = Assuming she is the youngest daughter, it leaves her as the child in the convent, otherwise her sister above.
Peter Jnr 11 years = child arrested
Thomas died 1885 not long after his father Peter but before his brother Peters arrest, and as a result he is not noted on the arrest document.
This accounts for all 5 children; the child arrested and the other 4 noted on the arrest document.
The Sydney Sands directory has McGraths listed in 1890 as follows
John McGrath: 2 x carpenters, 50 Pine & 145 Campbell Sts; 1 hotel owner, 81 Dowling St; 2 x tobacconist, 80 MacArthur St Ultimo & 689 George St; 1 van proprietor, Ebley St Waverley; 1 with no occupation, 129 Castlereagh St.
M. McGrath: van proprietor 30 Marlborough St,
Margaret McGrath Mrs: greengrocer 112 Bay St Glebe (I suspect this is where I got Glebe as a possible address for Margaret Snr) Lives alone in 1891 NSW Census
McGrath Miss: dressmaker 8 Susan St Newton
Any thoughts?
Warm Regards
Julie
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Hello All,
I am not sure of what to think of Margaret Adams being listed as mother. This woman had that many names, either through alias's or translation errors, she is hard to keep track of. It would appear from all the research that our families are one and the same. Did she remarry or shack up with a block after Peter's death and take his name ?
I would like to investigate if it was Margaret Anne (Beatrice) who was in the convent and in turn what she did between the age of 13 and turning up in Townsville and marrying a Dentist.
Regards Sandy
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Thanks for your kind words (earlier) , Julie. :)
-----------------
Re: Marriage record transcription - Maurice McGRATH / Sarah Jane OAKMAN - Ref: 1893 / 7091 (at your reply # 90 ) which proved to be so disappointing.
The following thread on the Australian board though, seems to give hope that a church record may provide additional information ?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
"NSW Historic Marriage Certificates with Blanks"
[I've only skimmed over that thread ... but pages 1 and 2 - and an update on page 8 - appear to be pertinent. ]
My suggestion would be that you start a new topic on the AUS board along the lines of "seeking historic Presbyterian marriage records" (the folk on the board there will be able to give you assistance I'm sure.) ;)
Although Maurice's marriage possibly took place at a private residence (Simmons Street, Wagga Wagga), the officiating minister was the Rev. J. MacINTYRE.
An 1890 newspaper reference (at TROVE) shows that Rev. J. (John ?) MacINTYRE was the incumbant at St. Andrews Presbyterian Church, Wagga.
~ Lu
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Hello All,
I found a Trove doc - New South Wales, Australia, Government Gazettes, 1853-1899 for Miss Margaret McGrath retiring from the Public Service Board as a teacher in 1899. She was teaching at Rhine Falls Public School out near the Snowy Mountains. This may not be our Margaret Ann (Beatrice) McGrath but I have made a few assumptions. Firstly right up until the 1960s women about to marry had to resign from the post of teaching so this may have been a resignation and not a retirement. By the time of Margaret and Frank Rogers marriage in 1901 they were living in townsville so she may have met Dentist Frank out in this community, become engaged and moved to Townsville. Does anyone know how to find out where Frank Rogers was practicing Dentistry in NSW. ( When he moved to Townsville he called his practice Sydney Dental ) ??????
One of Margaret Jane's 6 children ended up in a convent in Sydney, from what I know about the other siblings it appears that Margaret Ann ( Beatrice would but the most likely. If she was schooled by the nuns she would have likely have got a good education for the time and possibly an avenue into a teaching Career. In here later life she also ran several busineses which implies she was educated. Regards Sandy
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Hi Sandy
.... will reply to your post # 117 shortly. :)
~ Lu
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I am not sure of what to think of Margaret Adams being listed as mother. This woman had that many names, either through alias's or translation errors, she is hard to keep track of.
Hi Sandy
I wouldn't be too concerned about this (Margaret) ADAMS name cropping up. ;)
It sometimes happened that a person didn't know the maiden name of their mother and simply guessed at it ... or even made up a name ! [One of my "lot", birth not registered but baptism found > was twice married, 25 years between weddings > got his mother's christian and maiden names wrong on both occasions (she had died when he was 5). It wasn't until I got his death cert. that the mother's name appeared correctly. ::) ]
Given the newspaper Court report of April 1885, Margaret McGRATH was probably living apart from husband Peter and son Maurice has acted as informant to his death (possibly without consulting with mother Margaret ??). Of course Maurice again gives "ADAMS" as maiden name at his 1937 marriage (details from his 1893 and 1932 marriages are unknown at this point.) And then once more the ADAMS name appears on Maurice's own death cert. (1945) - but likely this was taken from info on his last marriage certificate ?
I think there is sufficient "official" documentation now though, to assume that Margaret McGRATH's maiden name was TURNER. ;)
~ Lu
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SUMMARY of documents held for McGRATH family :
* 1866 - Marriage at Hokitika NZ - Peter McGRATH to Matilda McCOY
[Note: Limited information recorded for NZ marriages in this era. Matilda's maiden name was not shown on the marriage certificate.
* 1866 - Birth of Maurice McGRATH at Hokitika NZ. Parents shown as Peter McGRATH and Matilda McGRATH formerly TURNER.
[Note: By 1873 (birth of Thomas McGRATH) Matilda is using the christian name "Margaret" / "or Margaret Jane". ]
* 1875 - Birth of Margaret Anne McGRATH at Christchurch NZ. Parents: Peter McGRATH and Margaret Jane McGRATH formerly TURNER.
[Note: Margaret Anne McGRATH appears to be the person later known as "Margaret Beatrice McGRATH" (m. Frank ROGERS - Townsville, AUS, 1901) ]
* 1877 - Birth of Peter Stephen McGRATH at Rangiora NZ. Parents: Peter McGRATH and Margaret McGRATH formerly TURNER.
[Note: This birth was registered at Rangiora by Margaret McGRATH, mother of the child. ]
* 1877 - Baptism (Roman Catholic) of Margaret McGRATH (alias TURNER), Mrs Peter MCGRATH"
at Rangiora.
OTHER
* 1873 - Birth registered in NZ of Thomas McGRATH - s/o Peter McGRATH and Margaret Jane McGRATH :
[Note: We know from a funeral notice and burial details, that a son of Peter and Margaret McGRATH named Thomas, died at Sydney in 1885 aged 12 years, shortly after the death of his father. ]
* 1885 (April) - at Sydney: Margaret McGRATH has her husband Peter, a contractor, arrested for desertion. Their sons, named as Maurice and John, testify in court as to their father's good character.
* 1888 (October) - at Sydney: A Peter McGRATH said to be aged ten and born in New Zealand, is arrested for theft and appears before the Water Police Court. The police summary names his mother as Margaret McGRATH, a widow who has 4 other children - 2 working, one in a convent, plus a daughter and son (presumably Peter) who live with her.
[Note: Whilst the date of birth given for Peter McGRATH (jnr) is inconsistent with that shown on his NZ birth certificate, details supplied by his mother Margaret, (her widowhood, number of children) fit with what is recorded on the 1885 death cert. of Peter McGRATH (contractor) and the knowledge that one of her children was also deceased by 1888. ]
{Note 2 : Margaret McGRATH was said to have given testimony when her son Peter appeared before the Water Police Court on or about 31 October 1888, so it is to be assumed that this was the name she was using up to, and at that date ? }
~ Lu
Edit: Apologies for the excess "bolding" in above text - have endeavoured to correct it, but to no avail (have a cranky, slow-moving computer at present. Grrr ! )
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By the time of Margaret and Frank Rogers marriage in 1901 they were living in townsville so she may have met Dentist Frank out in this community, become engaged and moved to Townsville. Does anyone know how to find out where Frank Rogers was practicing Dentistry in NSW. ( When he moved to Townsville he called his practice Sydney Dental ) ??????
Hi Sandy
It looks very much as if Frank ROGERS was resident in Townsville a number of years prior to his marriage.
At TROVE: see "The Northern Miner" (Charters Towers, QLD) - 4 March 1897 - page 3 :
... In re: Frank ROGERS of Townsville, Dentists ... petition for insolvency ....
~ Lu
PS: Will add tomorrow, further info for Margaret McGRATH (school teacher).
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Marriage Certificate for Maurice McGrath & Sarah Jane Oakman
NSW MARRIAGE REGISTRATION TRANSCRIPTION
REF NO 1893/7091
GROOM Maurice McGrath
STATUS Bachelor
PLACE OF BIRTH Not stated
OCCUPATION Farmer
AGE Not stated
USUAL RESIDENCE Humula
FATHER Not stated
OCCUPATION Not stated
MOTHER Not stated
BRIDE Sarah Jane Oakman
STATUS Spinster
PLACE OF BIRTH Not stated
OCCUPATION Living with parents
AGE Under 21 years
USUAL RESIDENCE Humula
FATHER Thomas Oakman
OCCUPATION Not stated
MOTHER Not stated
DATE OF MARRIAGE 11 Jul 1893
PLACE OF MARRIAGE Simmons St Wagga Wagga
RELIGION Presbyterian
WITNESSES Edward Oakman, Emma Jane Oakman
MINISTER J Macintyre
THE CONSENT OF SARAH JANE OAKMAN, BEING THE MOTHER OF THE BRIDE, WAS GIVEN IN WRITING TO THE MARRIAGE OF SARAH JANE OAKMAN WITH MAURICE MCGRATH, THE SAID SARAH JANE OAKMAN BEING UNDER THE AGE OF 21 YEARS.
Interesting to note that despite Sarah's mother giving written permission for her daughter to marry no mother is not noted on the marriage certificate. Looks like sloppy book keeping by the minister. Which makes it difficult to assume Maurice was estranged from his family because there is no reference to his parents...
Do we have any BDM or baptism for the other siblings?
Regards Julie
The "not stated" blanks on the NSW BDM marriage certificates 1856-1895 are not brickwalls. Here's a thread I prepared some time ago that may be of help in overcoming the elusive blanks. The basic problem was that the clergy were forwarding only a summary registration to NSW BDM's head office in Sydney, due to an ongoing dispute (forty years in duration) with the civil requirements for registering marriages in NSW. NSW BDM has not ever completed the reconciliation of their own summary records with the original Church registers.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
ADD
I would expect the transcription should have included the names of the witnesses. Perhaps it was not a full transcription. ???
Fingers crossed.
Cheers, JM
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NSW Electoral Roll 1878 THE MURRUMBIDGEE:
ALL with the surname McGrath
John, of Wagga Wagga, residence Murrumbidgee
John, of Wagga Wagga, freehold, Lachlan
John P, of Wagga Wagga, residence Murrumbidgee
John Jospeh, of Wagga Wagga, residence Murrumbidgee
William, of Wagga Wagga, residence Murrumbidgee
Thomas, of Junee Reefs, freehold Lachlan
Michael, of Junee Reefs, residence Lachlan
Thomas of Mundawadrah, freehold Murrumbidgee
ALL with the surname OAKMAN
James, of Ombango, residence Murrumbidgee
Thomas, senior of Oberne, residence Murrumbidgee
Thomas, junior of Ombango, residence Murrumbidgee
Richard, of Ombango, residence Wagga Wagga
Thomas, of Humula, residence Murrumbidgee
NSW ER 1903 BLAND, polling at Wagga Wagga
Morris McGRATH, of Baylis St, a fruiterer
Sarah Jane McGRATH, of Baylis St, domestic Duties
Thomas OAKMAN, of Baylis St, gardener
Cheers, JM
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NSW BDM has a birth for a Sarah Jane OAKMAN, to Thomas and Sarah, registered Wagga in 1874. (#20488). There are other children to Thomas and Sarah registered in the Wagga district.
NSW BDM has a birth registration for Alice McGRATH, daughter of Maurice and Sarah J, registered Adelong in 1894. (#3419). That birth registration should include details about her parents, including their places of birth, their then ages and their usual address at that time.
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/142814230 Daily Advertiser 30 Sept 1929
Funeral for Mr T OAKMAN, one of the oldest residents of Humula. The widow and all the children were present at the graveside. Their names are all mentioned, including Mrs W McGrath. I suspect a printer’s error on the W, being inverted M.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/104074442 Wagga Advertiser 12 May 1904
Funeral of Mrs Elizabeth OAKMAN, widow of James and mother of Thomas OAKMAN of Humula. Names of family members are mentioned
Cheers, JM
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
ADD
I would expect the transcription should have included the names of the witnesses. Perhaps it was not a full transcription. ???
Fingers crossed.
Cheers, JM
Thread on Australian board mentioned previously in Reply # 118.
The witnesses names are shown on the Marriage transcription (Edward Oakman / Emma Jane OAKMAN).
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Comment:
A gentle plea if I may ? :)
Owing to the length and complexity of this thread, can we please restrict postings to those which revolve around the search for members of the McGRATH family only. [OAKMAN family details can be found in numerous online trees and message board posts. ]
Thanks.
~ Lu
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Comment:
A gentle plea if I may ? :)
Owing to the length and complexity of this thread, can we please restrict postings to those which revolve around the search for members of the McGRATH family only. [OAKMAN family details can be found in numerous online trees and message board posts. ]
Thanks.
~ Lu
Thank you for your comment, I have only mentioned OAKMAN where I can also find McGRATH mentioned. I had already appreciated that the main focus is on McGRATH.
ADD
Sandy has a current thread on the Aussie Board re Frank ROGERS, husband of Margaret Beatrice McGRATH.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=700088.0
Cheers, JM
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My suggestion would be that you start a new topic on the AUS board along the lines of "seeking historic Presbyterian marriage records" (the folk on the board there will be able to give you assistance I'm sure.) ;)
Although Maurice's marriage possibly took place at a private residence (Simmons Street, Wagga Wagga), the officiating minister was the Rev. J. MacINTYRE.
An 1890 newspaper reference (at TROVE) shows that Rev. J. (John ?) MacINTYRE was the incumbant at St. Andrews Presbyterian Church, Wagga.
No need to start a new topic, here's a good place to make some enquiries about the McGRATH-OAKMAN marriage.
"Presbyterians : Ferguson Memorial Library, 168 Chalmers St, SURRY HILLS BUT they can provide no additional information for marriages performed by Reverend Fullerton."
It was not at all unusual for rural marriage ceremonies to be performed in private residences in NSW in the mid to late 19th Century.
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps a sidetrack, or perhaps something that has already been eliminated, but here’s the surname TURNER for a Margaret McGRATH upon her marriage. Even today quite a few with the surname McGrath in Wagga and surrounding district.
Francis TURNER married Margaret McGRATH 12 May 1890 at St Michaels, Roman Catholic rites, Wagga.
Francis’ parents given as John TURNER and Bridget HERBERT
Margaret’s parents given as Bernard McGRATH and Anne LONG.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC2-5BF
NSW BDM ref #7231
Cheers, JM
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I found a Trove doc - New South Wales, Australia, Government Gazettes, 1853-1899 for Miss Margaret McGrath retiring from the Public Service Board as a teacher in 1899. She was teaching at Rhine Falls Public School out near the Snowy Mountains. This may not be our Margaret Ann (Beatrice) McGrath but I have made a few assumptions.
Hi Sandy - have just spotted your similar thread on the AUS board, but will add here, my earlier thoughts . ;)
TROVE offers up just a few articles re: "Miss Margaret McGRATH - teacher."
My thoughts were that they all perhaps referred the same woman ?
"Sydney Morning Herald" - 20 May 1882 - p. 7 ... posted to Provisional School at Bowman's Creek [nearest populous place, Muswellbrook ?]
"SMH" - 9 April 1885 -p. 4 .... Provisional School at Brook's Creek. [Additional item same paper on 6 May 1885 - page 7 ... new public schools - Brook's Creek near Bungendore.
"SMH" - 22 February 1888 - ... to Provisional school at Monaro [formerly spelled as "Manaro" - location southern NSW, east of Snowy Mountains.]
[Note: All above would be too early for your Margaret ? ]
"Evening News" (NSW) - 28 February 1891 - p. 2 ... to Provisional School at Stony Pinch. [Location - about 190kms N/W of Sydney - nearest most populous place is Meriwa - 34 kms away.]
1899 - Retirement from Rhine Falls Public School.
~ Lu
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Hi Sandy and Julie
This is just my "take" on the make-up of the family of Peter McGRATH and Margaret (nee TURNER -- a.k.a. Matilda McCOY).
We have already established I think that Maurice B. 1866 at Hokitika was their first-born ?
Next I'd probably place John McGRATH (the son who gave testimony to his father's character in Court case April 1885) [Still haven't found a NZ birth registration and I'm still sifting through the John's who appear in the Canterbury Archdiocese Baptism records. ]
Daughter (name not known) ... prob. born between 1867 and 1872 (before the son Thomas).
[Again, no NZ birth registration found. Have checked Canterbury / Westland district RC baptisms and been able to eliminate all but a "Georgina Maria McGRATH" -bapt. Christchurch Cathedral 13 April 1868. Have found no further info in NZ / Os for this girl. ]
[[Note: My thoughts are that this mystery McGRATH daughter, may have been the one who was said to be in the convent in 1888 ? With the youngest children Margaret Anne (M. Beatrice) and Peter Stephen, more likely to have been in the custody of their widowed mother ?? ]]
~ Lu
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Thanks for clearing that up Lucy. It was only a thought but i will now focus on where Frank the Dentist was prior to Townsville ( He must have been registered elsewhere as I do not think he came straight to Townsville from England). This may be a to help with Margaret's movements prior to her marriage. There would have to be a good reason for for a single woman to travel to Townsville in the very early 1900's. Thankyou so much Lucy and other contributors for the endless amount of help you are providing to this novice researcher.
Regards Sandy
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Death of Peter McGRATH at Sydney- June 1885 :
We know that the case against Peter (for "maintenance") brought by his wife Margaret in April 1885, was dismissed by the Magistrate.
And that in October 1888 (at Peter McGRATH junior's Court appearance) Margaret was said to be "surviving" on L 2 (2 pounds) per week.
In August 1885 the "Balmain Observer and Western Suburbs Advertiser" carried two articles referring to the family of Peter McGRATH.
* 1 August 1885 - page 2 - Correspondence: Balmain Borough Council.
Letter from John RYAN referring to death of Peter McGRATH, contractor, stating that he had left his family unprovided for and asking the Council to "consider the matter of some extras on the late contractor's work". Referred to Finance Committee.
* 15 August 1885 - p. 2 -- Balmain Borough Council, Finance Committee:
.... in connection with John RYAN's application for and on behalf of the late Peter McGRATH's children, that in view of the large expenditure in remedying the late Peter McGRATH's contracts, the committee regrets its inability to comply with the prayer of the petition.
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Have no idea if convents or catholic schools had "free" education in that era ? (If education had to be paid for then it would seem to be have been beyond the reach of the poor widowed Margaret ? )
We do know (from Court case 1888) that Peter McGRATH junior had been attending the Sacred Heart school. We don't have an address for the family at that time though. Maybe it was the relatively new (1880) Sacred Heart school in Darlinghurst ??
"Freeman's Journal" (Sydney) - 28 June 1884 - p. 15, talks of the Sacred Heart sisters coming here about 2 years ago to establish a high class school (Rose Bay Convent). Same paper - 30 June 1888 - p. 19, records that the convent house at Rose Bay is now completed.
[Have no idea if there were other Sacred Heart schools in Sydney - these were the only ones that cropped up in searches for inner / suburban Sydney. ]
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NSW Electoral Roll 1878 THE GLEBE (included Balmain)
Francis McGRATH, of Campbell St GLEBE, household
Thomas McGRATH, of Queen Street GLEBE, freehold house
John RYAN, of Glebe Road, GLEBE, household.
Sands Directory 1877
Sacred Heart (R.C.) Church, Oxford St
Sands Directory 1885
Church of Sacred Heart, Rev J J Garvey, Darlinghurst Road
Also,
Sacred Heart Central School, is still at Cootamundra founded 1870 (Canberra and Goulburn Diocese)
Perhaps the following is a different destitute McGrath family
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/searchform.aspx?id=74&new=1
Randwick Asylum for Destitute Children
Admitted 3 February 1887, four children with the surname McGRATH.
Denis John, 9 years old
Frederick Gregory 7 years old
Margaret Mary, 4 years old
Mary Frances, 12 Years old
Here’s a link to TROVE, it is a free website, full of digitised newspapers covering the whole of Australia. There’s a variety of options available, eg You can restrict your searches to a particular newspaper, or a particular state, or year/decade, or article/family notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Lucy2 has referred to several of these cuttings. Here's the links from TROVE.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13591257 SMH 17 June 1885 Funeral Peter McGrath
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/132244191 Balmain Observer 28 Feb 1885 Letter from Peter McGrath to the local council re extras on his contract, asking for £200 of the £300 owing be paid, while the dispute is to be settled
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/132245586 Balmain Observer 1 August 1885 Letter from John Ryan referring to the extras on the late Peter McGrath’s contract
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/132244139 Balmain Observer 15 August 1885 Finance Cttee of Balmain Borough Council declined John Ryan’s application for aid on behalf of the McGrath children.
I cannot find a Peter McGrath in the Sands Directories 1880 – 1885. I can find a Michael McGrath, contractor, Beattie St BALMAIN, in the Sands 1884 Directory,
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory Here’s a link, free to search, for the Sands Directories 1858 – 1933.
Cheers, JM
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Hi All,
I changed the direction from Margaret as teacher, to the possibility that this may be the case for the new and unconfirmed McGrath daughter Georgina.
I located the following in the New South Wales, Australia, Government Gazettes, 1853-1899, (1898 March-April)
It reads; Miss G McGrath, from Haning to Yarrowitch Public, (between Tamworth & Port Macquarie) as teacher.
ADD: From Trove
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10873796?searchTerm=georgina%20m%27grath%20teacher&searchLimits=l-australian=y#pstart360878
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) Wednesday 25 January 1911 Pg 15
This Georgina M'Grath attended a public school in the snowy mountain region of Victoria and received a scholarship in 1911 to attend teacher's college.
I think we can rule her out. However still leaves the 1898 G McGrath as an option
Warm Regards
Julie
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Hi there Julie,
Do you have a copy of the ROGERS-McGRATH marriage, Townsville, Queensland 1901? If so, would you please type up all the information on that document, including of course the occupation recorded there for Margaret Beatrice McGrath?
Thanks,
Cheers, JM
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Hi there Julie,
Do you have a copy of the ROGERS-McGRATH marriage, Townsville, Queensland 1901? Thanks,
Cheers, JM
The ROGERS-McGRATH marriage 1901 is the interest of "sandy feet" (Sandy).
You'll find details have been supplied at the outset of this thread.
~ Lu
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Daughter (name not known) ... prob. born between 1867 and 1872 (before the son Thomas).
[Again, no NZ birth registration found. Have checked Canterbury / Westland district RC baptisms and been able to eliminate all but a "Georgina Maria McGRATH" -bapt. Christchurch Cathedral 13 April 1868. Have found no further info in NZ / Os for this girl. ]
This may be the Georgina Maria McGrath you located Lucy...
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS18700905.2.4&srpos=4&e=--1866---1873--10--1----0georgina+m%27grath--
Drowned at aged 2.5 :(
ADD: Note the drowned child's full name is OLIVIA Georgina Maria McGrath
However we still have a daughter unaccounted for in Sydney in 1888
Warm regards
Julie
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Margaret Beatrice McGrath and Frank Rogers( born Newton Abbott, Devonshire England) were married at St. Peters Church of England (Anglican) in Townsville on the 15th of July 1901. The witnesses were William McAllister and Lillian Sankey and the celebrant was F.G.Williams. Registrar was W.Thomas.
Lu,
Queensland marriage certificates are usually a tad more informative that just the above info. They often include the names of the parents of both the bride and the groom, the then ages of the couple, their places of birth and their occupations, and their father's occupations. As this would be information the couple provided first hand to the clergyman, I would expect it to be fairly reliable, and perhaps help with the McGrarth threads.
Cheers, JM
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From a 1893 Qld marriage cert, so I would expect similar info on a 1901 Qld mc. :)
When and where married
Names and surnames of the parties (the groom then the bride)
Condition of the parties (Bachelor or Spinster or Widow, no mention of Divorcee)
Birthplace (the cert I am looking at while typing this up, is for a couple who were both born outside of Australia. So, this document gives the town, the county and then the country [in the UK,] groom then the bride)
Married in the/at (the street address, a private residence in a rural district in Qld)
According to the rites of (the denomination) (Also, if either party was under 21 years, here was sufficient space for the clergy to write the details of the person giving consent, and their relationship to the bride or the groom)
The Rank or Profession of the groom and then the bride (in this instance the bride was recorded as “Private Life”)
Ages (groom, then bride)
Usual place of Residence (their respective addresses in rural Qld)
Father’s name and surname, Mother’s Name and maiden surname.
Father’s rank or profession
The signatures of the groom and bride
The witnesses
The Officiating Minister/Registrar
ADD
I am not sure when Qld required the clergy/registrar to ask if any of the parents were known to be deceased, but in NSW that requirement dates from 1899, and the clergy often abbreviated it to a small notation, sometimes "dec" other times a simple † near the parent's name
Cheers, JM
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This may be the Georgina Maria McGrath you located Lucy...
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS18700905.2.4&srpos=4&e=--1866---1873--10--1----0georgina+m%27grath--
Drowned at aged 2.5 :(
ADD: Note the drowned child's full name is OLIVIA Georgina Maria McGrath
However we still have a daughter unaccounted for in Sydney in 1888
Warm regards
Julie
Excellent sleuthing Julie ... well done. :)
Yes, the NZ Death Index only gives her as Olivia G. M. McGRATH so I hadn't picked up on that. :-[
[No birth registration showing but she was the daughter of a James McGRATH of Kilmore Street East, in Christchurch. ] Another eliminated from this search ... yay.
~ Lu
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However we still have a daughter unaccounted for in Sydney in 1888
Have you checked the NSW SRO's combined index (Child Care and Protection) for that elusive child, in Sydney in 1888?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a4y/
Or the index re the Benevolent Society? http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/
Cheers, JM
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I have located a "Sacred Heart" Convent and boarding school in Mount Erin, Wagga Wagga. This link is of the annual Christmas holiday celebration in 1893. It refers to a number of female McGrath children. As we already know there were several McGrath families living in Wagga. Indeed Wagga is where Maurice lived and where he married Sarah Oakman that same year, 1893 - Perhaps one of his sisters was attending this convent.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/101828837?searchTerm=georgina%20m%27grath%20teacher&searchLimits=l-australian=y#pstart10653992
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Margaret would have been 18 that year -
Is it possible... this is her? Could we by so lucky?
A small extract from the very long article.
University Class.
First prize, a silver watch, presented by Rev. M. Slattory, Tumut, for Matriculation Pass, awarded to Miss Gallagher.
Second prize, gold medal, for success at late University Examination, awarded to Miss M'Grath.
Third prize, for success at University Examination, awarded to Miss Cassie Gallagher.
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Hello Lucy, Julia and Co, I haven't been getting notifications so have been out of the loop with the recent findings which are great. However I have recieved some info regarding Peter McGrath,s activities in Rangiora regarding a sale yard business, charged with trespassing when rabit shooting and the purchase of a ship the Ketch Eagle which prior to purchase was invovled in the Maori wars. To what extent I do not know as yet. I have been tring to find a photo of Peter and family. He seemed to be a prominent member of the community so was hoping there may have been some photographic evidence. I will try in Wellington where he owned the pub. Peter sure fit a lot of living in to his relatively short life.
Regards Sandy
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I am having trouble attaching other docs due to size restrictions but will try again later
egards Sandy
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Hello Majm,
Attached is Frank & Margaret's marriage cert as requested. The listed names of Margaret's parents are incorrect and this has been discussed at length earlier in this thread. Possible some transcrip errors as well as the mystery of Peter's name given as Vincent on both the Marriage cert and Margaret's death cert. However I am certain that Margaret is in fact my realtive.
Regards Sandy
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:)
So have you contacted the Church of England, Townsville, to check that the information also recorded Rev F G Williams parish register has been accurately transmitted to the Qld BDM? Or perhaps contact the Uni who have the “Marriage Registers : January 1900-August 1906, 1 vol.,”
https://web.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/NQAR/biogs/E003306b.htm
It is quite possible that the info on Margaret's dc is drawn from her mc, perhaps the informant may have actually located the mc and read from it when providing info to the funeral director who then registers the death, so in that sense, it is really from one primary source.
fingers crossed,
Cheers, JM
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Hi Researchers,
I found one little word this morning while looking over some past papers (Hurunui), so decided to plug it in with the name McGrath.
The following resulted...
Reference to McGraths Creek
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP19001030.2.25&srpos=8&e=-------10--1----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
A Google search told me McGraths Creek is in Arthurs Pass
So I turned to Facebook and my friend who lived in Arthurs Pass for a few years.
Named after Mr McGrath (no first name recorded) he was a road-contractor who build the section of road here, when the 2nd road was built here, not sure when that was, but imagine 1880/90s. The road here has been realigned many times (the original is across Daisy Flat). Reference 1935 Park Handbook.
I have attached the section of the handbook.
Curious I searched further...
Maliciously Wounding – Peter & Margaret McGrath charged
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=CHP18720306.2.15&cl=search&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
Margaret McGrath indicted for unlawfully maiming a cow
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP18720408.2.19&srpos=3&e=-------10--1----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
Reference to Hurunui railway
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=MEX18930106.2.7&srpos=5&e=-------10--1----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
McGrath & Moody auctions at Rangioria
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP18810905.2.23.2&srpos=6&e=-------10--1----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
Five Pound reward for strayed geldings – Peter McGrath
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP18761010.2.2.5&srpos=24&e=-------10--21----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
McGrath v. The Corporation
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=THD18831112.2.11&srpos=54&e=-------10--51----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
McGrath 4 bedroom rental destroyed by fire
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP18830727.2.9&srpos=134&e=-------10--131----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
Hurunui flood and McGraths Northern Railway contract ok
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP18790621.2.18&srpos=139&e=-------10--131----0Hurunui+mcgrath--
We now have another town to check for the missing children.
To date we have a gap between 1866 Hokitika and Rangioria 1875 when Margaret Ann (Beatrice) was born.
The cow maiming now gives us a new town, Hurunui and takes us back to 1872.
Hopefully it will open doors for the later years in Australia following Peter seniors death.
Warm Regards
Julie