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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Suzie_Australia on Thursday 11 October 12 00:56 BST (UK)
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Other than Bishop Transcripts that are available through ancestry, find my past and IGI, are there any other sources that I could use to locate a marriage record.
I have found two marriages and need to decide which one belongs to me. Details are as follows:
1. William Quelch m. Ann Harris 26 May 1805, Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London
2. William Quelch m. Ann Long 1800, St Martin in the Fields, Middlesex.
I am about 90% sure that the first marriage (Ann Harris) belongs to me. Children started arriving 1808.
Children have been christened at St James, Westminster, London.
If I could find a hint of an occupation of William Quelch (snr), particularly "shoemaker", "bootmaker", etc, then that would solve which "Ann" he married. Also their ages at time of marriage would help.
Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi
Both these marriages occurred in Westminster parishes so the parish registers are deposited at Westminster Archives. Findmypast is indexing and digitalising these parish registers
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/westminster-collection/parish-registers
Ancestry holds the parish registers deposited at the London Metropolitan Archives and the Guildhall Library. The LMA holds Bishop Transcripts which cover Westminster parishes where they survive. The yearly copies of registers made and sent to the Bishop were not always done, copied fully (sometimes particularly for marriages more a summary) copied without errors or if done survive. The LMA BTs are intermittent at best for Westminster parishes. The original church register should always be looked at if possible.
The IGi is an index.
Marriages this early will contain the status of the couple and which parish they had resided at for the last three weeks (often the same parish to avoid the cost of the banns being read in two churches). Whether one or other admitted to being a minor otherwise they would be of full age = 21 or older. Whether the marriage was by banns or licence (in which case an allegation may survive, though from experience nothing much survives for Westminster) and the signature or marks of the couple and at least two witnesses. By tradition the marriage usually took place in the bride's parish but addresses in London were often transitory.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
Popped over to my library and jumped on findmypast. Found the record for William Quelch and Ann Harris and printed off. Married by banns, both signed with their name, also states both of this parish.
It is interesting that when I printed off the page there is an entry on the top of the page with a "John Nash" marrying. Now I know that the Nash family and my Quelch family are connected. So maybe I am on the right track.
It does all seem to fit. Do I rely on this as proof? Hmm!
Thank you
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Hi
Considering the number of marriages occurring in London churches, the size of the population of the London area and the reasonable commonality of a surname like Nash if it is just that, it isn't a proven connection between this John Nash and this William Quelch?
Is there a proven connection with the John Nash who married Elizabeth Smart Greayer on 23rd May 1805? The bride according to an online tree was baptised in 1779 in Adderbury Oxordshire.
Regards
Valda
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Suzie,
Clutching at straws here, but have you located both Willam Quelches and Anns any censuses (assuming they lived long enough to be included in one, or two :-\). I am just wondering if you may find some clues in any relatives who may be living with them? It can happen, if you're lucky.
Also perhaps looking for births for the William and Ann who married in 1800, might give you a timeline? :-\
I'm not sure how common the surname Quelch is, but might it be that you have the one William marrying two Anns? It may be worth a quick look at death/burials for an Ann Quelch between 1800 and 1805? :-\
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May or may not be relevent here.
There is a burial of an Ann Quelch in St.Andrews, Holborn, from the workhouse 15th Feb 1808.
There is a baptism of an Eliza Quelch to William and Ann for the same parish 3rd May 1801, couple are shown as from Portpool Lane (which was around 100 yards from the workhouse).
Hope this helps.
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Interesting finds ReadyDale.
Suzie, if you have births of children for your William and Ann, do you know their address for each birth/baptism? It would be worth finding all birth/baptisms for all children born to both William and Ann Quelches (there may be spelling variations with the surname) to see if you can make any headway by putting them into family groups. This might also help you to determine if the Ann who died in 1808 may be the 'other' Ann.
It may be that the Ann Quelch buried in 1808 is the 'other' Ann (Long). It is probable that this Ann is the mother of Eliza baptised in 1801 if this Ann and WIlliam married in 1800. If your Ann is still alive and having children beyond 1808, this points toward your Ann being Harris as you suspect.
ReadyDale - is there an age given for the Ann Quelch who was buried in 1808?
Some further research to prove/disprove is required of course. :)
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ReadyDale - is there an age given for the Ann Quelch who was buried in 1808?
No sorry. Very sparse - name, from, date of burial.
Took a quick look for records of the Grays Inn Workhouse and nothing is listed as surviving :(
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Hi,
According to the Bishop's transcripts Ann is Lang not Long.
Sharon.
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Sorry for the delay in replying. All of your hints have been keeping me busy.
The family is as follows:
Father: William Quelch born 9/4/1778 Iffley, Oxford; died 4/4/1854 St Ebbes, Oxford
Mother: Ann (Surname ????) born 1782/1785 where ?????; died 1855 Oxford
Note here: Cannot find them together in the 1841 census. William Quelch I cannot find in the 1851 census, but can find Ann living with her daughter at St Ebbes, Oxford - says she was born Colney (?) Hertfordshire
Children of William Quelch and Ann ????
William born 1808 Middlesex, London (can't find baptism record)
Ann born 1810 Middlesex, baptism 20 March 1814 St James Westminster
John born 1812 Middlesex, baptism 'as above'
Stephen born 1813 Middlsex, baptism 'as above'
Jane born 1816 died 1817 St Ebbes Oxford
Rachel Jane born 1818 Oxford
George born 1819 born Oxford
Charles born 1821 Oxford
Emma born 1824 Oxford
Thomas born 1826 Oxford (my great-great grandfather)
So, do you think the marriage of William Quelch to Ann Harris 26 May 1805 Soho, Westminster would fit in with these children, or the marriage to Ann Lang 26 February 1800, St Martins-in-the Field, Westminster, fit in?
From the replies, how would I know that Anne Quelch who died in the workhouse 15 Feb 1808 would be Anne Lang?
How do I find the Eliza Quelch born 3 May 1801 belongs to William Quelch and Anne Lang?
Now for the twist in the story.
William Quelch senior born in Oxford, moves to Middlesex, moves back to Oxford. His occupation was a Cordwainer (shoemaker).
Family "story" has it that a Quelch family member made the wedding shoes for Queen Victoria (1840). Now, from what I can gather the Quelch family were living in or around Soho in London. Now the bootmakers to the Royal Family at the time were Grundy & Son (later Lobb & Co). Grundy & Sun were located in Soho. Apparently through the V&A Museum and Northamptonshire Records there are no employee records for Grundy & Son.
The problem here is that if William (and Ann) were in Soho in the 1840's I can't seem to locate the family in the 1841 census. I have found the family, with the exception of William (senior) located at St Ebbes Oxford in the 1851 census but they are not living in the one household.
Sorry for my long winded post, but I have been working through all of your suggestions.
Do you think I can claim Anne Harris as mine? Her death certificate isn't going to give me a maiden name is it?
Regards to all and thank you for your interest.
Suzanne
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Re: 1841, There is a William Quelch living in Shoreditch, age 60 (these are rounded, so....) who is a Shoemaker. Shown as not born in Middlesex.
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Re: 1841, There is a William Quelch living in Shoreditch, age 60 (these are rounded, so....) who is a Shoemaker. Shown as not born in Middlesex.
I think you will find he is a Schoolmaster not a Shoemaker, I though the same thing at first.
Sharon
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Re: 1841, There is a William Quelch living in Shoreditch, age 60 (these are rounded, so....) who is a Shoemaker. Shown as not born in Middlesex.
I think you will find he is a Schoolmaster not a Shoemaker, I though the same thing at first.
Sharon
Oops! Should have gone to Specsavers ;)
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Hi
London Colney in Hertfordshire did not have its own parish church until the C19th.
http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/places/places-l/london-colney/london-
13th June 1784 Shenley
Ann Harris parents Samuel Harris and Ann
Then there is Colney Heath also without its own parish church until the C19th
http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/places/places-c/colney-heath/colney-heath.htm
10th July 1785 St Stephens St Albans
Ann Harris parents John and Ann
The latter baptism could also cover London Colney.
Not sure Family Search has all the parish registers that could cover London Colney and Colney Heath. The actual baptism entry may or may not be specific enough to give the actual place in the parish the parents lived,
There is also Colney Hatch in the parish of Friern Barnet, but this was the Middlesex section of Barnet which was in Hertfordshire.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you to all for your advice.
I will follow up with all of your suggestions and keep on with the hunt. Will certainly let you know if I make any "discoveries".
Regards,
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Hi Suzie,
I was interested in your post as I am a descendant of George Q b1820 and father William b 1778. My information on this relationship an dates comes from a Q family Bible and wondered if that was also in part your source for his birth date an location?
The information I did not have is the birth of William in Oxford and move to London then back to Oxford. I was working on the assumption the W was born in London and married there, before moving to Oxford. Since I could find no record of him in any of the census records his birth county has been a mystery!
Any help in the area would be appreciated and, please forgive any transgressions as this is my first post!
Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
My apologies for the delay in replying. What a gem holding a Quelch family bible.
How tricky this Quelch family has been for me.
So is your George Quelch is the brother to my three times great grandfather Thomas Quelch.
Back to William Quelch. The following information I received many years ago from Betty Daubney (now deceased) who was researching the Quelch family and has published. The following is an extract from the family history of the Quelch family which she produced. It's very difficult to read and there don't appear to be any sources adequate enough.
111 3-William QUELCH b9.4.1778 Oxford bur 4.4.1854
m sp-Ann (HARRIS or LANG??) 1785 Oxford-1855 Oxford
Go to the following website link for further information, including your George:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kitwithers/quelch/quelch.html
I wanted to get some correct answers for you but just revisited my research for the death of William Quelch and found that it can't possibly 1854 as his wife Ann is recorded in the 1851 census as a 'widow' living with her daughter Ann Nash (nee Quelch) and they were living in St Ebbe.
Also, I have just been looking again and I can't find William Quelch in the 1841 or 1851 census. So, now I'm thinking this Quelch family that all we find on the internet is not quite factual.
Peter, you may have already seen this previous discussion on rootschat, see link below, this may help also:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=619826.0
I think I have a bit of work ahead of me now to sort this family out, but I apologise that I haven't been of any great help at this stage.
You may be correct in the fact that William was born in London.
Will keep you posted on any discoveries.
Regards,
Suzanne
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Hi Suzanne,
Tricky is the right word!
Regarding the information on William from Daubney, the copy of the family bible I have has the same birth date - is it possible both are sourced from the same document?
We might have a source difference in the 1851 census regarding Ann Q as my source (Find my Past) shows her as still married, so the elusive William is still around?
I have not been able to do much of a review of the information in the kitwithers link you provided, thank you, but here is the information from the copy of the family bible I have regarding William Q, though the connection to George Q in Oxford is confirmed
Father John b 4 May 1748 died age 81, spouse not named
Children of the above
John b 27 apr 1774, d 14 Jun 1838, A 64
Elizabeth b 14 may 1776, d 26 Apr 1812, A 36
William b 9 Apr 1778 - father to George Q of Oxford
Mary b 14 Jun 1782, d 5 Aug 1807, A 25
Thomas b 19 Aug 1784 - father of James Q of London
James b 9 Mar 1786 - d London
Stephen b 26 Dec 1786, d 6 Sep 1856, m 18 Jul 1817 and father to Stephen b 1826
In following up on this in Find my Past I cannot find any truly satisfactory connections to the data above and the records available.
The best connections I can make for the births, are to a John and Elizabeth for the cx of John in 1775 in Dartford.
For the others there are some possible connections to births in Berkshire also to a John and Elizabeth, but the years of the cx are quite different and would only be reasonable if the dates of birth in the source bible are inaccurate by a couple of years -- and that may be, but the date of birth of Stephen Q as 1787 ties in with the 1788 date given in the 1851 census.
I was hoping that I could use this information to better understand the location of Williams birth, or of his siblings but, not based on my research to date!
So, hope this might connect with information you may have, or if you have any thoughts on other sources of information that might help me clarify the situation that would be great!
Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Pity that Betty Daubney isn't around to ask about the family Bible.
I will have a look at the information that you have provided and see how it fits with what I have. If you can give me a couple of days that would be great, then I will get back to you.
I check my information on Ann, wife of William, also
Cheers,
Suzanne
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Hi Suzanne,
I received this today from OFHS. Some of these sources are new to me and have sent it just in case there are some you might not have seen before:
Just to let you know that, from tomorrow, Friday, 25 August to the end of Monday, 28 August, ie across the English & Welsh bank holiday weekend, Ancestry.co.uk is giving free access to its UK and Ireland records. This includes censuses and the GRO indexes ... as well as the scanned Oxfordshire parish records which OFHS has licensed to Ancestry.
The Oxfordshire parish register databases are:
Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915
Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930
Deaths and Burials, 1813-1965
There are other Oxfordshire-specific resources, such as:
Giles' A History of Bampton
Beesley's A History of Banbury
Burn's A History of Henley
Giles' A History of Witney
and
Oxford University Alumni, 1500-1886
(You can use the categories tab to home in on a database.)
Nearby counties with parish registers scanned by Ancestry include Gloucestershire, Warwickshire and Wiltshire.
A reminder that OFHS members are eligible to a 20% discount on an annual premium UK Ancestry subscription. To join OFHS, start at www.ofhs.org.uk/introduction.html
Peter