RootsChat.Com

Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: FishMan on Wednesday 10 October 12 07:42 BST (UK)

Title: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: FishMan on Wednesday 10 October 12 07:42 BST (UK)
Hello,

I am trying to find any evidence that Thomas Veal(e) and John Hockines (Hawkins) are the same man? The common link is wife Janet Orr.

John Orr was a Scottish baker and came to Australia in 1858 as a convict aboard the ‘Edwin Fox’. He was convicted of assault and robbery in the Glasgow Court of Justiciary in 1857 and sentenced to 14 years. The ‘Edwin Fox’ sailed from Plymouth on 26 Aug 1858 arriving in Fremantle on 20 Nov 1858. The ship is now the centrepiece of a museum in Picton, New Zealand. John Orr is described as a baker, aged 33, married with 3 children, 5’ 7”, dark brown hair, hazel eyes, fresh complexion, round faced, stout build, slightly pockmarked. A John Orr aged 43 died in WA in 1869.

Janet Orr snr. followed her convict husband to Australia, also bringing daughters Annie and Janet aboard the ‘Fitzroy’ in 1864. The ‘Fitzroy’ sailed from London at 8am on 7 Dec 1864, arriving in Fremantle in March 1865. Son, James Orr’s name appears on the record of final departure, but is crossed out. It is not clear whether he died prior to departure, on the voyage or remained in England. In 1864 Janet snr. was aged 42, Annie 17, Janet 13 and James 10. A Janet Orr aged 69 died in WA in 1894. This could possibly be Janet Orr snr.

Janet Orr married John Hockines (sometimes written as Hawkins) on 7 Feb 1867 at the Registrar’s Office, Bowes & Murchison District, WA. Janet could not write, so made her “X” mark, whereas John Hockines wrote his name very clearly. The spelling is definitely HOCKINES. Hockines was working as a miner and listed his residence as Fortune Mine. Janet was a servant and listed her residence as Northampton.

A daughter Edith Jane Veale was born in 1868 at Irwin River to Thomas Veale and Janet Orr. A son James John Veale was born in 1870 at Geraldine Mine and died aged 1 month. The 2nd birth register index entry lists the mother as Janet Hawkins Orr and father as Thomas Veale.

Janet Orr's partner Thomas Veale was also a convict and came to Australia in 1862 aboard the ‘Norwood’. The ‘Norwood’ left Portland on 16 Mar 1862 and arrived in Fremantle on 9 June 1862. He was convicted of with violence in the Gloucester Assizes in 1860 and sentenced to 6 years. Probably quite a light sentence as he had quite a prior record. Thomas Veale is described as a labourer, aged 25, single, 5’ 81/4”, black hair, light hazel eyes, full faced, sallow complexion, stout build and ink marks left arm, U.W. heart and wreath right arm.

Janet Orr’s second marriage was to John Grice on 9 Sept 1873 in the Congregational Chapel, Fremantle. Her name is written “Janet Hawkins”, widow, occupation Domestic and residence Perth. John Grice was working as a Miner resident in the Champion Bay District. The witnesses are Isaac and Annie Bisp. Annie Bisp is Janet’s sister. She also marries twice, firstly in 1865 in Geraldton to Thomas Burnet Hayward. Secondly in 1872 in Fremantle to Isaac Bisp.

Janet Orr is a widow at the time of her second marriage, indicating that her first husband died prior to 1873. There is a death of a Thomas Veale aged 38 in the register for 1872. There is no death in the registers of a John Hockines, John Hawkins or Thomas Hockines. A Thomas Hawkins dying in 1869 is aged 67, too old.

John Grice & Janet moved to Victoria, South Australia and ultimately Sydney in NSW and had ten children of their own. John outlived his wife Janet and is the informant on her 1903 NSW death certificate which confirms Edith Jane and two deceased boys as being children from her first marriage to "Thomas Hawkins".

Surely Janet would not have married in 1867 (aged 16) and given birth to three children to another man within 3 years. Any thoughts on how I might confirm that Thomas Veale and John Hockines (or Hawkins) are one and the same man? And if so, why would he adopt the Hockines/Hawkins alias for Janet and himself but give his children the surname Veale?

Andrew
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: sue21757 on Wednesday 10 October 12 11:46 BST (UK)
Have you seen the birth 1872
Gilmore female
Brooks female
Father John Mother Janet Orr they both have the same reg no 14430
Cheers Sue
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: FishMan on Wednesday 10 October 12 13:57 BST (UK)
Hi Sue,

Yes - bit confused by that one. Am too tight to buy the cert just on speculation.

Janet's death cert says she had lost two sons from 1st marriage, no mention of a 2nd daughter.
Her mother, Janet Orr snr, would have been aged 50 in 1872, and I don't know of any other Janet Orr's in the area at that time (it's not a very common name).

Andrew
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 10 October 12 14:20 BST (UK)
"Surely Janet would not have married in 1867 (aged 16) and given birth to three children to another man within 3 years".

It looks like her sister also had children with a John THOMPSON in between her two marriages.

This is weird...

Marriages

ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWARD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       2343    1865    
ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWOOD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       3230    1871

Debra  :)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Monday 08 July 13 14:54 BST (UK)
"Surely Janet would not have married in 1867 (aged 16) and given birth to three children to another man within 3 years".

It looks like her sister also had children with a John THOMPSON in between her two marriages.

This is weird...

Marriages

ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWARD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       2343    1865   
ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWOOD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       3230    1871
These people are mine great great grandfather and mother.
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Monday 08 July 13 15:13 BST (UK)
Thomas Burnett Hayward was a Merchant Captain [sea captain] his wife was Annie Orr.
Their daughter was Janet Hayward, who married JOhn Judge on 12th March, 1885 @ the Wesley Church, Geraldton, Western Australia.
John and Janet Judge had the following children: John Albert, Dorothy, Elsie, Robert, Tom.
Janet remarried in 30th March 1914 to Frederick Growden at St. Allan's Church at Highgate, Perth Western Australia.  She was remarried at the age of 49. Janet passed away on the 4th July, 1942 and buried at Merredin Cemetery in Merredin Western Australia.
Robert Judge married Juanita Tindale, they had triplets and they didnt survived. Wendy and Dorothy. My mother is Wendy and she married Athol Fallon.


ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWARD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       2343    1865   
ORR    ANNIE    Female    HAYWOOD    THOMAS BURNET    Male    GERALDTON       3230    1871
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: FishMan on Tuesday 09 July 13 13:42 BST (UK)
Sandra, how far have you got with TBH? I know he was in Canada/US, looks like he deserted Annie? Andrew
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Tuesday 09 July 13 14:03 BST (UK)

Hello Fish Man.
I have found that Thomas Burnett Hayward was "reported" missing by his daughter Janet Hayward/Judge/Growden. This is what it reads:
Captain Thomas Burnett Hayward was lost at sea trading from Maurituis and Freemantle {Western Australia]. 10th August.1928.
I can add to this about Janet nee Hayward, Judge & Growden.
Janet Hayward was married at 17 years to John Richard Judge. When John Judge died she remarried to Fred Growden 30th March, 1914
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 10 July 13 01:59 BST (UK)
This says that Thomas was "last heard of as being at Rocky Point, North Carolina, U.S.A., on 27th August, 1894."  I think Janet probably had no idea what had become of her father.  "Lost at sea" sounds respectable. 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14165376

Josephine Elizabeth HAYWARD was Thomas's mother.

1872 was a busy year for Ann ORR.  She either thought or claimed that Thomas was dead, (edited because I can't add up), remarried to Isaac BISP and had another daughter named Mary.  Meanwhile, she had already had two children with a John THOMPSON in 1868 and 1870!  It seems to me that Thomas may have disappeared from the scene soon after marrying Annie.

Something is not quite right here.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Wednesday 10 July 13 06:53 BST (UK)
Thomas Burnett Hayward {Royal Navy Officer}:

Thomas Hayward records said he was in several mutinies. Many times he was left with NO ship.

The information I have in my hands states, that Thomas Hayward sister Ann was a close friend to Betsy Betham, whom married William Bligh.

Thomas Hayward ship was the "Bounty".

There was another chap called Peter Heywood who was confused with Thomas Burnett Hayward.
"Apparently" Heywood thought Hayward was a "worldling" , raised a little in society [as we say here with a plum in your mouth}...

Apparently it is NOT the first time Hayward lost a ship.

Bligh and shipping companies thinks Hayward drowned at sea during a cyclone, somewhere between Mataruis and Freemantle, Western Australia, as it was knowledged by his daughter Janet [nee Hayward] Judge/Growden.
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 10 July 13 07:21 BST (UK)
William BLIGH and his wife died long before Thomas Burnet HAYWARD and his siblings were even born  ???

Debra  :)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 10 July 13 08:23 BST (UK)
It appears that this is the man you are talking about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hayward_%28Royal_Navy_officer%29

I have no idea what he has to do with Thomas Burnet HAYWARD.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: FishMan on Wednesday 10 July 13 12:39 BST (UK)
Sandra,

I think you've got your Haywards (and eras) in quite a mix. While TBH is only an in-law to the line I am researching, I did look at him when trying to untangle the mess surrounding the Orr girls, but only succeeded in raising more questions.

In 1869 Emma Burnet Hayward (Thomas's older sister) married into the affluent Limburg-Stirum family. The titles of the House of Limburg Stirum were confirmed in 1812 by Napoleon and in 1814 the family was recognised in the nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

The notice in Trove referred to by Dundee is a duplicate of the notice in the London Gazette May 31st 1898 (see http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26973/pages/3421/page.pdf (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26973/pages/3421/page.pdf)) and was seeking to locate Thomas or his descendants following the Emma's death in 1894 and her husband Samuel John von Limburg Stirum's death in 1897, presumably regarding a share in the estate.

It also confirms that as a result of court action Hayward v Hayward (involving a Josephine Elizabeth Hayward) Thomas was legally presumed dead on 1 Feb 1892, his last known address being Rockey Point, North Carolina USA on 27 Aug 1884.

Most likely Thomas deserted Annie and left the country, probably not that long after they married. But Annie did not sit around feeling sorry for herself, she had two daughters with John Thompson in 1868 and 1870 and then re-married on 14 Feb 1872 in Fremantle to Charles William Baxter (aka Isaac Bisp) yes ... another ex-convict with an alias. Maybe this was to legitimise their daughter Mary Bisp born the same year?

There are a number of convicts named John Thompson who were sent to WA, coincidentally perhaps, one was transported on the ship with Annie & Janet's father John.

Andrew  ::)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: FishMan on Wednesday 10 July 13 15:14 BST (UK)
Sandra, I can't find any birth record for Janet to Thomas and Annie. What do you have? Andrew
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Wednesday 10 July 13 19:00 BST (UK)
FishMan
I have a copy of Janet nee Hayward second marriage certificate.
It states who her father was Thomas Burnett Hayward and has her father stated as a Merchant Captain.
It also states her mother name as Annie Orr.
On the marriage certificate, it states she is a widow and she is remarrying a widower Frederick Growden.
Now on Janet's nee Hayward Judge/Growden death certificate details is limited [cos it was not given my our side of the family]. It list all Janet and John Judge children and including the one that had died.
It only says on her death certificate that her father was a sea Captain. Has nothing on about her mother Annie Orr.

I have documents here, that is spelling the Hayward name different. This is why you have to triple check things.
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Wednesday 10 July 13 19:50 BST (UK)
I have found this:
 HAYWARD-On the 30th November at Mel

bourne Elizabeth Mary beloved vvlfe of ?ebulon Thomas Hayward of 687 Rathdown street North Carlton and loving mother of Derrick aged 53 vears -At rest


 HAYWARD-The Fl lends of the late Mn

ELIZAEETH M«R\ HsYVVARD are Informe-" that her remains will be cremated at the Springvale
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Wednesday 10 July 13 20:40 BST (UK)
I just found something but will check the data.

One of Captain Thomas Burnet [not with double t] Hayward in this document, had a ship call Celtric King and it is connected with the shipping agencies Thomas Hayward had in Geraldton and Bunbury too.Records show he sailed from UK - London arriving in Freemantle on the 30th Oct, 1897.

Another document shows that Thomas Burnet Hayward spouse Annie Orr. They were married in Western Australia and Annie Orr possibility died in 1938 [that has to be check with the births, death & marriages office here].

There is also an Passenger list from 1890 -1960 that listed Annie Orr leaving England and arriving in a city - Australia.  Passenger list has many enteries for Annie Orr travelling with Captain Hayward
 Annie Orr is on the electoral rolls for Australia from 1906.

* I will have also check this out with births, death & marriages Office*
There is a Mary Elizabeth Hayward  and has her mother listed as Ann ? death 1968.
Now this Mary Hayward could be connect to the above posting.
Secondly I did notice there was several Thomas Hayward [Heyward, Haywood spellings] listed too.
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 11 July 13 03:44 BST (UK)
Hi Sandra,

Fishman can probaly tell you more about Annie ORR after her marriage to Charles William BAXTER (alias Isaac BISP) in 1872.  It is evident that her relationship with Thomas Burnet HAYWARD ceased soon after they were married.  It is also obvious that Thomas must have left the area then because bigamy was illegal and Annie probably would not remarry unless she did not know where he was and reasonably presumed him to be deceased.

I just found something but will check the data.

One of Captain Thomas Burnet [not with double t] Hayward in this document, had a ship call Celtric King and it is connected with the shipping agencies Thomas Hayward had in Geraldton and Bunbury too.Records show he sailed from UK - London arriving in Freemantle on the 30th Oct, 1897.

It is important that you don't go chasing every person named Thomas HAYWARD or Captain HAYWARD - it is not an uncommon name and it is usually hard enough to sort your own family out without chasing other people who are not related.  The Captain HAYWARD of the Celtic King was Captain B. G HAYWARD, not your chap.

Annie Orr possibility died in 1938 [that has to be check with the births, death & marriages office here].

It is not impossible, but highly unlikely that Annie's surname at death was ORR.  Once a woman married or had a relationship with a man they usually kept the married surname until death. The same goes for the electoral rolls. I will however concede that Scottish women often used their birth surname throughout their lives.

I have found this:
HAYWARD-On the 30th November at Melbourne, Elizabeth Mary beloved wife of Zebulon Thomas Hayward of 687 Rathdown street North Carlton, and loving mother of Derrick aged 53 vears - At rest.

There is a Mary Elizabeth Hayward  and has her mother listed as Ann ? death 1968.
Now this Mary Hayward could be connect to the above posting.

The first person died in Victoria in 1938 aged 53, the second person died in WA in 1968 aged 71.  Why would you think they are connected, and why are you looking for a person named Mary HAYWARD?  I haven't seen anyone by that name come up in our discussion so far.

On the 1861 UK census, Thomas Burnet HAYWARD is still living at home with his widowed mother and various other extended family members in London.  He is aged 18 and is a midshipman.  My opinion is that this was in merchant shipping not the Royal Navy.  If he had been in the Navy they would not have so much trouble finding out where he was.  So you now know that he came to Australia between 1861 and 1865.

The previous census, taken in 1851, shows that his father Thomas was a wholesale grocer, aged 45, and born in Wiltshire.

If you are interested, Thomas Burnet HAYWARD's Masters/Mates certificate is available to view on Ancestry.

You will always find different spelling of surnames as it was not as important back then.  Some people were illiterate and didn't know how to spell their own names.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 11 July 13 09:38 BST (UK)
FishMan sorry to hijack your thread, but just a few extra bits on the HAYWARDS...

Thomas Burnet HAYWARD's admission to St Paul's School (note the address)
http://archive.org/stream/admissionregist00gardgoog#page/n360/mode/2up/search/329

His father's death:

The Times (London, England), Monday, Jan 10, 1853; pg. 9; Issue 21321.

"On the 6th instant, Thomas Hayward Esq., of 80, Guildford Street, and Mincing Lane, aged 47."

I think this is TBH's uncle, brother of his father Thomas (above)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Hayward

Some extremely long obits in the newspapers of the day, this is just a bit:

The Wrexham Advertiser, Friday, February 08, 1884; pg. 7

"...and a wreath of violets sent 'in loving remembrance' by Belgian friends the Count and Countess S.J. de Limburg Stirum."

"From St James's Church the body was conveyed to Highgate Cemetery, where a brother, Mr Thomas HAYWARD, was interred."

Correspondence of Abraham HAYWARD, the first chapter has a little family history:
http://archive.org/stream/cu31924088015627#page/n0/mode/2up
(use the bottom arrows to turn the pages)

Debra  :)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Thursday 11 July 13 13:07 BST (UK)
hello Dundee
Can you please show yourself cos I have found some more things...
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Thursday 11 July 13 13:16 BST (UK)
I was told Bunbury has alot of information on a Thomas Hayward and his family.
The library in town has books on him and Im going ring the library tomorrow about it
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Thursday 11 July 13 13:44 BST (UK)
Thomas Hayward [father] is listed in the Western Australia Parliament;

 Successive Members of Parliament for the District:  Bunbury:             
              Name                                          Party                                                  Term
           Thomas Hayward                           Ministerialist                                        1901 - 1904
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 11 July 13 14:41 BST (UK)
That is not your Thomas HAYWARD.

His obituary: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/37432430

Thomas was legally presumed dead on 1 Feb 1892, his last known address being Rockey Point, North Carolina USA on 27 Aug 1884.
Andrew  ::)

Debra  :)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: FishMan on Saturday 13 July 13 00:02 BST (UK)
Sandra,

Your descendant Annie Baxter (aka Bisp) (previously Hayward) (nee Orr) died in 1876 and is buried in the Geraldton, WA district as is her 2nd husband Charles William Baxter (aka Bisp) who died in 1892. The registration number for Annie's death certificate from the WA Registry of BDM is 9072/1876 if you want to purchase it. It may provide a lot of answers for you. Hope you'll share them?

Andrew  :)
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: Sandra_Fallon on Saturday 13 July 13 08:30 BST (UK)
I will share what documents I come across.
But I do have Janet Hayward's marriage and death certificates. It does state who her parents were. They are Thomas Burnet Hayward [Sea Merchant Captain] and Annie Orr.
Title: Re: WA Convict: Thomas Veal(e) alias John Hockines (Hawkins)
Post by: FishMan on Monday 11 August 14 15:15 BST (UK)
Hi Sandra,

I made a great new discovery today – I found the Orr family in the 1851 Census of Scotland.
John Orr aged 26, b. Lanarkshire, Scotland, baker employing 2 men; Janet Orr aged 28, b. Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland, wife; Janet Orr aged 3 mths, b. Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland, daughter; living at 99 Causeyside Street, Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland.
Ann Orr aged 6, b. Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland is listed in the household of her uncle and aunt Alexander & Mary Borland who lived at 20 Great Hamilton Street, Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland. The two homes are less than 700m apart.

I am certain this is your Ann (Annie) because the subsequent 1861 Census shows a nephew James Orr (who was crossed off the passenger list - see original post) aged 7 and living with the Borlands at 6 South Campbell Street, Paisley.

There are step-children in the Borland household indicating that the Houston children are Mary’s from a previous marriage. A little added hump in working out the exact relationship between the Orrs and Borlands?

Andrew