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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: annel80 on Wednesday 03 October 12 17:56 BST (UK)
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i am trying to find the possible birth of an Albert Jones sometime between 1894 and 1911, son of Louisa Victorene Jones (unmarried). the boy was a dwarf and died young (age unknown). His mother lived in Lewisham but she could have moved to an unmarried mothers home or elsewhere as her family were strict catholics and she would have been frowned on. Could he also have been taken away and lived in a home ? Any info about places to search would be great.
I already have a couple of poss death dates -Albert Jones d 1Q 1898 Lewisham age 0
Albert Jones d3Q 1911 Lewisham age 2
but since i am not even 100% sure he was ever born and Albert was a common name I havent yet bought the death certificates.
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This is a tricky one- Jones and a common first name!
There is one baptism in Lewsham with mother Louisa Jones no father for Ethel May Jones 9 Jul 1893 but nothing else I can see.
As a starting point could you post everything that you know about Louisa please?
Jan ;)
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Ok thanks.
Where to start ?
Louisa Victorine Jones was born in Tonnay Charente in France 18th August 1882 the youngest of 4 sisters and 2 brothers (Anita Charlotte, Julia Maria, James Louis, Edwina Louise and Philippe Arthur [my grandad]) and all born in France.
By 1891 they are living in 14 St Georges Avenue Forest Gate London with parents Edwin Charles Jones and Julie Marie Jones (nee Breton).
As far as i knew Louisa was a spinster until a revelation from my cousin that she had had a son Albert who was a dwarf and who died before 1911 as another member of the family was named after him in Aug 1911.
No one else knows anything at all about him. If its true i can only presume that she was unmarried and because the family were strict French catholics she was perhaps sent away elsewher to have the child ?
The family later moved to 20 Peak Hill gardens Sydenham ( Now comes under Lewisham)where she lived until she died in 1973.
The only two deaths in that area I can find on BMD are the ones Ihave told you about but checking other records there were many Jones families in this area.
I have found a birth in Lewisham in 1Q 1898 1d 1171for an Albert Jones so may have to take a chance and get the birth certificate.
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Have you got Louisa in 1901 and 1911?
Any clues there? Still single? Any child?
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No child in the latter. She is living with widowed mother and 2 sisters - all girls single. No mention of any children.
With parents and 1 sister in 1901. Girls single.
It's an odd story isn't it about Albert. Maybe something will come to light or maybe wires have been crossed and someone else was his mother :-\
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are any records available of childrens homes (wherehe could have been sent ) or unmarried mothers homes records ?
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I would think you can rule out the death at age 0 - and possibly even the one age 2
For it to be said he was a dwarf, he must have lived long enough to be obviously and consistently much smaller than average for his age
Am not sure exactly what age this would be apparent, but i would guess it would be early childhood rather than whilst still a baby
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I was thinking too would there have to be some history of dwarfism? No wish to be disrespectful as I don't know enough about it but I wouldn't have thought it would be something to happen out of the blue if you know what I mean.
Was it just a term that was used to describe him :-\ and who was the other member of the family named after him - could be a clue there?
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Hi
I would say if they were strict Catholic, she may have been sent to a Nunnery or they may have sent her back to France
Margp
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I was thinking too would there have to be some history of dwarfism? No wish to be disrespectful as I don't know enough about it but I wouldn't have thought it would be something to happen out of the blue if you know what I mean.
Was it just a term that was used to describe him :-\ and who was the other member of the family named after him - could be a clue there?
according to one article on google, the majority of cases of dwarfism occur in otherwise normal height families
Some causes of dwarfism are genetic in origin but others can occur randomly
Medically, the term "dwarf" is used for anyone who is less than 4 ft 10 in when a fully-grown adult - although it can be diagnosed well before adulthood
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I would think you can rule out the death at age 0 - and possibly even the one age 2
For it to be said he was a dwarf, he must have lived long enough to be obviously and consistently much smaller than average for his age
Am not sure exactly what age this would be apparent, but i would guess it would be early childhood rather than whilst still a baby
My niece's sister in law has a child with dwarfism. Apparently it was obvious soon after birth as his limbs are shorter than average and his head is larger. They knew from scans that he would be like this, but obviously that wouldn't be the case in the 1900s. He has had a lot of medical problems which the hospital have managed to control, but again that wouldn't have been possible years ago, so one of those deaths could be Albert.
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Hi
Just a thought, if Louisa was living in west Ham in 1891 + 1901, it wasn't until 1911 that you know that she is living in Sydenham. Could you be looking in the wrong area?.
I'm not saying this is your one.
But there is a birth for a Albert Edwin Jones born Jun qtr 1906 Poplar?
There is also a death Jun qtr 1906 Poplar.
Albert Edwin Jones aged 1mth 12 May 1906 Stepney Limehouse Union. There's no mention of parents.
I must admit it was the middle name that drew me to this one.
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peb21, I have only just seen your post as I don't seem to be getting e mail notifications. This birth is indeed a possible , I will look at my records and see whether the dates fit. Thanks
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Hello again peb21. The Edwin middle name as you say might be a clue as that would have been the grandfathers name. With the death date you stated as being in the June quarter , how did you get the specific
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Sorry! The specific date in May ? Do you have access to the death certificates ?
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You could apply for the birth certificate stating that you only want it if the mothers name is.........
My understanding is that they will not charge you if you make such a request and the one you have ordered is not the correct one.
It looks a good possibility as the "Union" is not only the workhouse (If the family disowned her during her pregnancy) but also the hospital (if the child had a medical condition.
If you knew this was the correct birth then it would, for sure, be the correct death.
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There is a private baptism at Bromley by Bow All Hallows on 19th April 1906 for Albert Edwin Jones born 11th April 1906 abode Stepney Union Workhouse, who would appear to be the same one who died 12 May 1906, his mother is Jane Elizabeth Jones - so doesn't look as if he is yours.
Jan ;)
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Thank you, jan. I can rule him out then. Just out of interest, where did you find the baptism record?
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Hi
Have you checked the dates to find out if this was the area they were living in?. If they were, I wouldn't rule this one out - nor accept it - but to keep it in mind.
Could she had used a different christian name so not to bring 'shame' on the family?.
When did they move to Sydenham?.
I have a family in my tree that changed their surname, when one of his daughters died, the father was down on the cert. as step-father, the same applied on another daughters marriage cert. Yet he was their father.
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Could she had used a different christian name so not to bring 'shame' on the family?.
I did wonder if that was a possibility. I'll see if I can find a Jane Elizabeth Jones in the area in 1901.
Jan ;)
As I suspected there are loads of possibles :D It would be worth looking for events in the area for Louisa's family
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Janan, what kind of events for Louisa's family do you mean?
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Janan, what kind of events for Louisa's family do you mean?
Sorry. I meant if there were any births, marriages or deaths in Poplar registration district for family members around 1906. Although if Louisa did give birth in Stepney Workhouse under an assumed name she may well have done so in another area than where the family lived at that time.
Jan ;)
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Now revisiting the hunt for this child. It was a boy, who was alive in 1924. That’s all I know about him. Still no name
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I’m questioning whether he was indeed called Albert and also whether he was a dwarf. It’s an unusual story for someone to make up
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I have found a birth in Lewisham in 1Q 1898 1d 1171for an Albert Jones so may have to take a chance and get the birth certificate.
Hi annel80,
Using 'new' GRO index this birth registered with mmn Tibbs.
Probably puts this boy out of the running.
Regards, Tony.
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Thanks Tony. That ones rules out then !
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Perhaps the 1921 census will provide some answers ??? Not long to wait now.
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Tony , is that a new GRO Index thing ? I thought you couldn’t search maiden name pre 1911 ?
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In Tony's absence it is the GRO website that has that information, you need to be registered. It also gives ages at death in years that freebmd does not give them
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
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Thanks rosie99
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In Tony's absence it is the GRO website that has that information, you need to be registered. It also gives ages at death in years that freebmd does not give them
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
Thanks Rosie,
GRO index showing mother's maiden name for births before 1911 Is so useful. Great for narrowing possibilities for common surnames or for finding children who have been born and sadly died between census dates. A dash instead of a name indicates a likely illegitimate birth.
annel80 - Can I ask where the info that this boy was alive in 1924 came from? Did that source give any idea of how old he would have been in 1924? Could be we're looking at a wider time frame for births than before.
Tony.
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The info that the boy was alive came from a postcard dated 1924, to her sisters, and it said ‘ give my son a hug ‘
He was obviously staying with them. In 1924 the mother Louisa was 42.
She often travelled to France where she had other sisters.
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So looks like he was kept in the family rather than being in some sort of institution or adopted out.
Where were the sisters that the postcard was sent to?
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They were in 20 Peak Hill Gdns
Sydenham
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There are these two 'dying young' rather than as children:
Deaths Mar 1933 Lewisham 1D 1383
JONES, Albert Arthur (aged 22)
Deaths Dec 1937 Lewisham 1D 1049
JONES, Albert Edward (aged 20)
But of course there are so many Jones and it's not even certain he was an Albert. With the connection to France he may have been born, lived or died there.
Tony.
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Thanks Tony. Those two are indeed possibilities. I may spend money getting the death certificates after I’ve looked for their births.
I’ve already waded through French records in several villages to no avail. But there are more !
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Have these sisters been identified on the 1939 Register? I'm thinking to at least rule out that he's still with them at that point.
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Gov.UK find a will probate site has this:
Jones, Julie Marie of 20 Peak Hill Gardens Sydenham Kent, Widow died 8 March 1928. Probate London 29 Mar to Julia Marie Jones and Louisa Victorine Jones spinsters. Effects £355 9s 6d.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Jones&yearOfDeath=1928&page=28#calendar
A copy of the will can be bought to download. Well worth £1.50 if grandson gets a mention.
Louisa Victorine and Julia Maria are together at that address in 1939 with no one else present.
Possible death for Edwina Louise 1920 Camberwell ?
Not seeing marriage/death/1939 for Anita Charlotte. Is she the one in France?
Tony.
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Thanks Tony. I have all that info already. I should have told you. I even have Julie Marie’s original will , written in 1921, three years before I know of the grandsons existence. There is no mention of him anyway, but would he have been mentioned if they were trying to keep it quiet ? She died in 1928, but obv didn’t change the will.
If I need to purchase a will , where do I do that ? The ones I possess have come down through the family
Edwina Louise was another sister, yes. Anita came over to England to marry her French husband , we assume only because her parents were here.
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If I need to purchase a will , where do I do that ? The ones I possess have come down through the family
Hi there,
If you head to the Probate site here:
https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate
You can search using name and year of death to find the entry you are interested in. This often has useful info like exact date of death, last home address and names of executors.
To order a copy of the full probate you need to be registered with an e-mail address and password and logged in. You can then order using the form on right side of the page and proceed to checkout.
It takes about a week and they send an e-mail to say it is ready to view and download to keep. (Like ordering a pdf of a birth or death from GRO)
Best of all it is only £1.50 per will. This was recently reduced from £10. Bargain!
Tony.
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Thx very useful
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Now looking in another cemetery. New Kirkpatrick cemetery Glasgow. Anyone know where section b is located ?
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An update on this very old thread. I now know that the child WAS born and was a boy. He was alive in 1924 and was by then old enough to be away from his mother. I know this because I have found a postcard his mother sent back from France to her sisters In England saying give my boy a hug ! I still have no other info ! It’s driving me crazy ! Maybe the 1921 census may throw some light on him