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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: daisydigg on Thursday 27 September 12 22:08 BST (UK)
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Hi there
I have come up against a wall.
My great,great,grandfather was definately a farming bailiff and was called William Morris.(no middle name) I have this information from his sons (also William Morris) marriage cert dated 1864. His son was born 1819 so the farming bailiff William would've had to be born at least at the end of the 1700's.
Is there another name for farming bailiff? The sons marriage was registered in Marylebone and he lived in Notting Hill but William Morris could've been from anywhere!
I have been looking for this side of the family for 15 years without much luck, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
daiseydigg
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hi, so wm morris the son was 45 when he married is that right? can you tell us his wifes name it will be a little more to go on
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I suppose you could call a farm bailiff a farm manager. He would have run the farm for the person who actually owned it. This could have been the lord of the manor, someone of higher rank or someone with money. The owner often lived close to the farm but would have had little to do with the day to day running of it.
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Hi
yes sorry!
ok, William married Fanny May on 9th Nov 1864. He was 45, and a widower (gentleman) and she was 39 and a spinster. I have already traced the Mays and they came from Henley on Thames and hoped that, there was where they met, but that is not the case.
As an aside, on Williams death cert (he died 23 July 1865) his occupation is retired butler. And on his will it says he was previously of No 34 Grovesnor Sq (where he was in service) Fanny May was also in service before they met but across kensington, so could they have met this way?
They had my grandfather out of wedlock in 1862.
He was registered as George Morris May. Presumably he drops the May bit when William marries Fanny.
Hope this helps.
This is ALL i have.
Oooo apart from the name of the people William worked for at Grosvenor Sq. Richard Benyon de Beauvoir. I have checkd out his other estates but nt really come up with anything.
Thank you
daisydigg
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I suppose you could call a farm bailiff a farm manager. He would have run the farm for the person who actually owned it. This could have been the lord of the manor, someone of higher rank or someone with money. The owner often lived close to the farm but would have had little to do with the day to day running of it.
Thank you for this behindthefrogs!!
I will start searching for a farm manager.
Thank you
daisydigg
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Hi
Possible candidate
1861 census RG9 54 folio 151
1 Albert Gate St Margaret's Westminster
William Morris 41 Servant Married Butler Cle? Herefordshire
Now the French Embassy - don't know when it became the French Embassy
1851 census HO107 1484 folio 257
20 St James W St James Westminster
In the household of Robert Shafto Adair? Baronet
Willm Morris 30 Servant Unmarried Butler Dot? Herefordshire
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
This could be William Morris jnr!
I don't know how you did that in 30 mins..u r a genius!
Thank u so much.
daisydigg
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Hi
7th May 1820 Clehonger Hereordshire
William Morris parents William and Ann
Siblings see Family Search for further details of these baptisms in Clehonger
1814 John
1816 Mary
1818 Harriet
1822 Eliza
1825 James
1841 census HO107 427 Bk10 folio 10
Clehonger Herefordshire
William Morris 60 Ag lab
Ann Morris 50
John Morris 25 Ag lab
Eliza Morris 15
George Morris 10
All born in county
Adult ages, those over the age of 15, usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.
1851 census HO107 1977 folio 133
Painshill? Clehonger Herefordshire
William Morris 71 Head Married Ag lab Clehonger Herefordshire
Ann Morris 63 Wife Married Can? Herefordshire
John Morris 37 Son Unmarried Ag lab Clehonger Herefordshire
Plus 1 hose servant
The occupation of William in Clehonger doesn't rule him out as a possible father since there is a tendency when people marry to suggest their father's status was higher than it was. Social status for servants in grander households was very important to them. No butler would want to admit his father was an Ag lab.
These are possibles which are not proven. If William Morris in Westminster is correct he must have married for the first time between 1851 and 1861.
Regards
Valda
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Hi there
Is there another name for farming bailiff?
daiseydigg
Farm steward.
From the Dictionary of Occupational Terms: Bailiff, farm bailiff, farm manager, farm steward.
Stan
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Hi there
Is there another name for farming bailiff?
daiseydigg
Farm steward.
From the Dictionary of Occupational Terms: Bailiff, farm bailiff, farm manager, farm steward.
Stan
Thanks Stan
I will investigate Fam Stewards
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Gamekeeper and Yardman are related occupations.
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Just a long shot but there is a Perryhill nr Clehonger,some of the land round there was part of belmont abbey estate, sold off in1809, the elder william may have lost his job as farm bailiff then.
mike
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Gamekeeper and Yardman are related occupations.
According to "A Dictionary of Occupational Terms" a yardman, yardsman, yard labourer, was a cattleman who cleaned out stalls, tipped manure and litter on a muck heap and worked generally in the cattle yard or around farm buildings.
Stan
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According to Hall Genealogy Website (http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/f.html), a Farm Bailiff "Made sure a tenant farmer ran the farm properly and was paying the rent on time. If not the bailiff had the authority to evict."
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Thankyou Stan for your detailed description of 'Yardman' . My Grt Grt Grandad was 'Yardman on Estate' in 1911 in Bradford. He moved around a lot and was previously (mostly) ag lab and fs (Farm Servant) . But he was also ,for a while, a Farm Baliff (had to move on rather sharpish again , not sure why) . So would being a Yardman on 'an Estate' be moving up in the cow muck slinging World then ? . Throwing cow muck about on 'an Estate' ! as opposed to just throwing cow muck about , um , not on an Estate ?
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Gosh!
Thanks all for all these fantastic leads!
I suspect Yardman, farm bailiff, etc were aspects of the same role and possibly depended on the size of the estate where employed?
I am currently searching his son William Morris suicide in the London Standard newspaper, but to no avail.
He died on 23 July 1865, Notting Hill. I have searched each paper from the next day to the following friday for the report. Have also looked in the Pall Mall Gazette.
Does anyone know how long it takes for a reporter to get notification of a suicide?
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Hi
Inquests were quick as bodies could not be kept. Reporters would report the most interesting inquests. There would be many held in London every day so a local newspaper would be more likely to carry the report than a newspaper that was covering the whole of London and beyond. Local London newspapers are less likely to be online.
Regards
Valda
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since this is on the occupations board I will throw in a bit more, sallyyorks mentioned gamekeeper which made me think of a water bailiff, as the parish of clehonger has a 3 mile boundary to the river wye, noted for its disputes over fishing and navigation rights.
mike
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From the Dictionary of Occupational Terms: Bailiff, farm bailiff, farm manager, farm steward. A manager or head worker on a farm or farms who is mainly engaged in supervision and allocation of duties; superintends the work of agricultural labourers e.g. carters, cowman; is often placed in charge of a subsidiary farm under the direct supervision of the employer and manages the farm in the absence of the farmer; he may buy and sell produce and equipment in market on the owner's behalf. Certainly a cut above a yardman :)
Stan
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Stan . What puzzles me about Grt Grt Grandads occupation description is the 'on Estate' part. This was in the middle of Bradford ! Erm Yardman in knackers yard , yes , Yardman in scrapyard , yes or yardman in a weaving mill yard , yes . But on 'an Estate' ,as in Country Estate in the middle of Bradford ! ! in 1911 ! ! . Err :) . He was a bit of a character apparently :)
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Daisy i trawled the papers over a death that might have been suicide or a drunken accident (at a train station) but i coudnt find anything , The only way might be to send off for his death certificate .
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Daisy i trawled the papers over a death that might have been suicide or a drunken accident (at a train station) but i coudnt find anything , The only way might be to send off for his death certificate .
Thanks sallyyorks
I have his death cert which states "suicide" "unsound mind"
No further information.
The papers of the time tend to go in to alarming detail, so I was hoping to find it that way as was aware that Coroners records are difficult to trawl thru.