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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: inveryes on Tuesday 25 September 12 17:55 BST (UK)
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Hi
Pretty gruesome eh?
My g-g-g-grandmother was found floating in the Clyde on 27th December 1868 by Alexander McPhee, N4 Marine Police.
I've found a piece in the Glasgow Herald the following day under the heading of "Body Found" and a description of her before she was identified.
Does anyone know any way I could go about finding out more about this? maybe police records of the incident?
Any help appreciated. :)
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I dont think the police record will have survived this length of time. Her body will have been taken to the city mortuary. There may be a chance that the mortuary admissions book may still be in existence. That would give details of name, age, last address, clothing worn, valuables and details of person identifying the body. I would give the Mitchell Library in Glasgow a visit or call.
Chris
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Ps...welcome
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Hi inveryes
Welcome from me too :)
Not hopeful about you finding official records of the type you are looking for, in this period :-\
This is a useful general guide www.nas.gov.uk/guides/FAI.asp
Monica
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Hi there
Welcome to Rootschat
I think we have had a topic regarding this or a similar drowning in the Clyde in 1868.
The families name was Dunsmore. Is this the same lady??
The post was put on here in February 2012.
If its not the same lady, I do apologise.
regards Sandymc
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Rings a bell....
Can you add the link here to the earlier post just in case connected?
Monica
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Ps...welcome
Hi inveryes
Welcome from me too :)
Monica
Hi there
Welcome to Rootschat
Thank you people. Nice friendly welcome ;D
The mortuary admissions book sounds like a good idea Chris.
I think you might be right Monica. I did contact George Parsonage of the Glasgow Humane Society to see if their records mentioned it, but no joy.
Sandy, she wasn't a Dunsmore but a Wright ( nee Milne )
See what you folks make of this description from the Glasgow Herald the following day:
Body Found Yesterday morning, the body of a woman was found floating in the river about a hundred yards below Messrs. Barclay, Curie(?) & Co.'s shipbuilding yard on the north side of the harbour. The body, which was removed to the Receiving House at Mavisbank Quay, appeared to have been two or three days in the water and was that of a woman about 40 years of age. Deceased was dressed in a black and blue head-dress, dark wincey dress, grey striped petticoat, dark cotton apron, dark wincey petticoat lined with white cotton and two flannel petticoats.
Now that's a lot of clothes, even for Glasgow in December, and it has been suggested that she might have been trying to make sure she drowned? Any thoughts?
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Any additional info available on her death certificate or RCE?
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Hi again,
Poor woman. I think you would have to look at her home life to imagine why she might
have jumped in the river. Only 40 she might have lost some of her children, she might
have become a widow and not been able to cope. Maybe in debt.
I doubt if everyone could swim in 1868 so maybe her clothese were to keep her warm.
Living through the 1950's I can tell you it was really cold even in Yorkshire as we didnt
have fitted carpets, central heating or hot water or a bath even. So unless you ate well
it was very cold.
I did read that in the length of time that has taken place it might be the newspaper article
that contains the only information about the event that you could find nowadays.
Also I think Scottish Law is different to the English and Welsh law so there might be
some difference because of that.
Hope you find something but might be worth checking her home life to say why.
regards Sandymc
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Any additional info available on her death certificate or RCE?
Hi sancti
Not really.
Date and time found " Floating in the River Clyde ( north side / near to Stobcross Quay) usual residence 12 Thistle Street, Hutchesontown, Glasgow.
Cause of death: Drowning - under water a few hours.
She had six kids at the time, oldest 22 youngest 1, and her husband had died sometime between 1861 ( appeared on the census) and 1868 ( she's described as a widow on her death certificate). Did she fall or jump or was she pushed? No way of knowing I suppose.
( Without wanting to go off topic, I can't find any trace of her husband's death anywhere)
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Hi again,
Poor woman. I think you would have to look at her home life to imagine why she might
have jumped in the river. Only 40 she might have lost some of her children, she might
have become a widow and not been able to cope. Maybe in debt.
I doubt if everyone could swim in 1868 so maybe her clothese were to keep her warm.
Living through the 1950's I can tell you it was really cold even in Yorkshire as we didnt
have fitted carpets, central heating or hot water or a bath even. So unless you ate well
it was very cold.
I did read that in the length of time that has taken place it might be the newspaper article
that contains the only information about the event that you could find nowadays.
Also I think Scottish Law is different to the English and Welsh law so there might be
some difference because of that.
Hope you find something but might be worth checking her home life to say why.
regards Sandymc
Home life would have been pretty grim I imagine, Sandy. She was actually 50 at the time, not 40 as the paper speculated. According to George Parsonage of the Humane Society, there is unlikely to hav ebeen any sort of inquiry as family were allowed to just take the bodies home.
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Mitchell Library might have info on Poor Relief claims by the family and may tell you what happened to her husband
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Welcome. :)
It is a sad story indeed. I would have to say that my initial thoughts would be that if foul play was suspected then I would have expected some mention of it somewhere (newspaper, coroners report etc). Given that she had such young children I would expect that to mean the chances of deliberately taking her own life would be less likely than the theory of her accidently falling into the river.
Having at least two suicide victims in my family I can understand the desire to want to know what went on, but sometimes these things are best left unknown. What was going on? what they were thinking? these are such natural questions, but they are also ones that you may never get answered. Even the people alive in her life at the time may not have known the real story.
I pray that her soul is at peace.
Kevin
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Have you viewed the youngest child's birth record to see if the father registered it?
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What was her husband's name and occupation?
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Her father, John Wright, was alive when she was 1 year old in the 1861 census. He has died sometime ( and somewhere) between the 1861 census and the 1868 drowning. The family rarely ventured far from home, but I'm beginning to think he died outside of Scotland.
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Husband was John Wright, born c. 1812, Greenock, occupation Cooper
1841 census, family at Adams Court Lane
1851 census, family at 57 Mitchell St
1861 census, family at 12 Thistle St
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What was her husband's name and occupation?
He was John Wright, Cooper (journeyman) and their address in the 1861 census was 12 Thistle Street, Hutchesontown. Mary Wright was still at this address when she drowned. That would suggest that they hadn't moved, but who knows?
We traced John back to being born in 1812 in Greenock but then, the young orphaned Ann Jane Wright apparently was living with an uncle Duncan in the 1871 census. Although we presume Duncan was John's brother, Duncan appears to have a different set of parents?
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Husband was John Wright, born c. 1812, Greenock, occupation Cooper
1841 census, family at Adams Court Lane
1851 census, family at 57 Mitchell St
1861 census, family at 12 Thistle St
How'd you do dat? :o
You can tell that I'm new to this game but you're right with those addresses. Only Wife Maryand daughter Janet were in the house in 1841 and note the age difference between those two is different in each census.
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Just been looking at this for a while this evening ... to no avail of course.
There are a few public trees for Duncan Wright and his wife, also Ann Jane, on A/try but none so helpful for your purposes unfortunately.
Ages on 1841 census are often/usually 'out' by a few years, enumerators rounded ages to the nearest five years.
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Just been looking at this for a while this evening ... to no avail of course.
There are a few public trees for Duncan Wright and his wife, also Ann Jane, on A/try but none so helpful for your purposes unfortunately.
Ages on 1841 census are often/usually 'out' by a few years, enumerators rounded ages to the nearest five years.
Where could I see those public trees?
A/try?
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Yep, on Anc*stry ... if you don't have an account yourself you can access via your local library ... if you are in the UK ...
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Have you checked this death on SP?
1862 WRIGHT JOHN Male at HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
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Yep, on Anc*stry ... if you don't have an account yourself you can access via your local library ... if you are in the UK ...
I'm in Scotland but am I right in thinking that site doesn't cover Scotland?
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Have you checked this death on SP?
1862 WRIGHT JOHN Male at HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
When I search for those details on SP and include a birth date of 1812 =/- 2 years, nothing comes up. Two census would give him a birth date of 1812 or 1814.
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Age is not indexed so dont put age or birth year in
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Tried it.
It was worth a shot but he's 4 years old.
That's the problem with SP. You can't be sure you have the right record before you have to shell out.
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Who were his parents?
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Son Richard looks to have married Margaret Paton
Was his father listed as deceased on the MC?
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Four other John Wright deaths in Hutchesontown,one in 1863,two in 1865 and one in 1867.
Given her youngest was 1 year old at the time of her death, I would be tempted to check that 1867 one out.
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What a sad tale :'(
Had a few fished out the Clyde and still tying to find out why for a couple. But Poor records via Mitchell I'd say is good bet. Am hoping (waiting on response) that might answer two of mine as I can't establish via the normal routes. Others I know were 'industrial' accidents.
Bless her - hope she found peace even tho not the nicest way to go
Ann :(
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Son Richard looks to have married Margaret Paton
Was his father listed as deceased on the MC?
Son Richard did marry Margaret Paton on 29th April 1870 and father John was listed as deceased on the MC.
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Who were his parents?
We're struggling with that.
Originally I had it as John Wright born 1st June 1812 in Greenock to John Wright and Janet Maclean
Then we found from the 1871 census that his young daughter, Ann Jane had gone to live with her Uncle Duncan and his wife, also Ann Jane, following the drowning of her mother.
Assuming Duncan to be John's brother, we tried to find him, but Duncan's death certificate in 1884 gives his parents as Daniel and Mary.
The other options we found for John b 1812 were:
b 13th October 1812 to Daniel and Janet Walker
or
b 19th July 1812 to Daniel and Janet Tytler
or
b 27th June 1813 to Duncan and Catherine Ross.
None of which are the same as Duncan's parents. ???
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What a sad tale :'(
Had a few fished out the Clyde and still tying to find out why for a couple.
Have you tried contacting George Parsonage of the Glasgow Humane Society?
They've been recovering bodies from the Clyde for generations.
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Just noticed (not sure if you are aware as you only mention 6 children as per the 1861 census?) that there is another birth listed to a John Wright and Mary Milne after Ann Jane's birth (and after the 1861 census) in Hutchesontown 14 July 1861 ... a Daniel Wright ... in addition to the birth of another Daniel Wright to this couple in 5 Feb 1856 ...
Two sons named Daniel lends weight to John's father as having been a Daniel himself?
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I note that Duncan Wright is listed on the 1861 and 1871 census as a Cooper. Can't see him yet on 1851 census.
Perhaps this might be him on 1841 census?
Duncan Wright aged aged 15, occ Apprentice Cooper
living in Greenock West with parents Daniel, aged 65, occ Blacksmith, and Janet, aged 60 - both born Renfrewshire, and siblings Janet, Mary and Elisabeth.
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Hi again,
Just looking at the ages of Daniel Wright and John born 1812
That would make Daniel 38 years old which is a little old for him
to be just getting married. Might have been his second wife?
Either a Janet or a Mary might have been correct.
Due to the way the Scottish naming of children goes.
regards Sandymc
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The Dunsmore drowning was my post. I still don't know the circumstances surrounding that death.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,582568.0.html
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Have you checked this death on SP?
1862 WRIGHT JOHN Male at HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
Who were the parents of this John?
What was his address?
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Just noticed (not sure if you are aware as you only mention 6 children as per the 1861 census?) that there is another birth listed to a John Wright and Mary Milne after Ann Jane's birth (and after the 1861 census) in Hutchesontown 14 July 1861 ... a Daniel Wright ... in addition to the birth of another Daniel Wright to this couple in 5 Feb 1856 ...
Two sons named Daniel lends weight to John's father as having been a Daniel himself?
Good grief! More?
Thanks very much! ;D
The address is correct in both cases, but two sons named Daniel? Would that suggest the first one died prior to the second being born?
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Yes, not unusual to re-use the name if the first born name-holder died.
Couldn't see Daniel Wright, b. 1861, on 1871 census ???
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I note that Duncan Wright is listed on the 1861 and 1871 census as a Cooper. Can't see him yet on 1851 census.
Perhaps this might be him on 1841 census?
Duncan Wright aged aged 15, occ Apprentice Cooper
living in Greenock West with parents Daniel, aged 65, occ Blacksmith, and Janet, aged 60 - both born Renfrewshire, and siblings Janet, Mary and Elisabeth.
We think we have Duncan's death in 1884 which gives his parents as Daniel and Mary.
Could the Daniel and Janet you refer to be grandparents, given their ages?
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Yes, not unusual to re-use the name if the first born name-holder died.
Couldn't see Daniel Wright, b. 1861, on 1871 census ???
Found Daniel, b 1856's death in 1858 aged two.
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Yes, exact relationships between householders was not detailed on 1841 census so the 'parents' bit was my surmise ... so Daniel and Janet could easily be grandparents or Janet, senior, could have been a second wife etc ... and all that is if you take it that it's 'the right' Duncan there.
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Hi again,
Just looking at the ages of Daniel Wright and John born 1812
That would make Daniel 38 years old which is a little old for him
to be just getting married. Might have been his second wife?
Either a Janet or a Mary might have been correct.
Due to the way the Scottish naming of children goes.
regards Sandymc
We did think we could be talking about a second marriage but it's hard to pin it down.
Where did you get Daniel's age at 38? My head is spinning with this stuff.
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Have you checked this death on SP?
1862 WRIGHT JOHN Male at HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
Who were the parents of this John?
What was his address?
Parents were Ronald and Isabella and address was 133 Crown Street, Glasgow.
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Yes, not unusual to re-use the name if the first born name-holder died.
Couldn't see Daniel Wright, b. 1861, on 1871 census ???
I've found a Daniel Wright died 1869 aged 8 at Paisley High Church, Renfrew.
Paisley would be a bit of a departure from the norm but, given that Daniel had lost his second parent the year before, it's possible he could have been taken in by a relative I'm not aware of.
I can't access the certificate at the moment as SP has turned into a money pit and I think I'm going to have to desist for a while or face divorce!!
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who keeps SP in business ;D