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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: scotty35753 on Tuesday 25 September 12 15:38 BST (UK)
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My Gt-Gt-Gt Grandparents are John Kyle & Elizabeth Surgenor. My Gt Grandfather was one of their sons, Goerge Kyle born 17 Dec 1876 in Backnamuckly, Ballymena. George left Ireland and went to Scotland were he married. He died in England in 1970.
I am looking for information pertaining to John & Elizabeth. Johns father was a James Kyle and Elizabeths father a James Surgenor. Does anyone have information concerning the names of their wives?
Also I cannot find John & Elizabeths birth or death dates and place. I only have info concerning their marriage. Where is Backnamuckly?
Any info would be appreciated. Thanks
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there's a townland named Bracknamuckley in Portglenone sub-district that looks like it might fit. It's in the registration district of Ballymena which fits with the BMD Index record.
for reference :
extracted birth for George Kyle (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG6J-CFP)
birth Index for George Kyle (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB3Q-NMJ)
Shane
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The townland of Bracknamuckley consists of just over 488 acres, and is located about 1 mile north of Portglenone town.
S.
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Civil registration of births started in 1864 so there will be no birth certificates for John or Elizabeth- you will need to know their family's religion and where they lived in order to search for church records (which may or may not exist for such an early date).
What are their residences at the time of the marriage? when and where did the marriage take place? (marriages usually take place in bride's church).
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A few Kyle records to have a look at-
From www.proni.gov.uk:
"Kyle John of Bracknamuckley county Antrim labourer died 6 November 1930 Administration (with Will) Belfast 25 November to Hugh Kyle labourer. Effects £5."
"Kyle Henry John of Bracknamuckley Portglenone county Antrim farmer died 6 November 1934 Administration Belfast 20 March to Robert John Kyle farmer. Effects £45."
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Bracknamuckley/123624/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Bracknamuckley/123630/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Bracknamuckley/940273/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Bracknamuckley/940272/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Bracknamuckley/940266/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Bracknamuckley/940274/
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Shane, thanks a lot for your reply. Obviously, the name Bracknamuckly, has been written incorrectly on George Kyles birth certificate which I am in possession of. At least now I know there is such a place. I will check the PRONI records that you have mentioned.
Regards, Diane
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Hi Diane,
Yes, it was common for the names of many Irish townlands to be recorded with variant spellings over the years.
For Bracknamuckley specifically see ...
http://www.placenamesni.org/resultsdetail.phtml?entry=1578
It has a "coast line" on the East bank of the Bann river, and shares land boundaries to its South with the townlands of Garvaghy (in which Portglenone village sits) and Gortfad.
[From an historic-geographic perspective it is probably best approached via
http://askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=placeSearch ]
Sadly, the exact location of the individual land holdings do not appear to be extant on the map. Funding was withdrawn from the (Griffith's Valuation) program by a change of political administration.
Capt. Jock
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The Kyle's have been in Bracknamuckley for several generations.
The Co Antrim Portglenone family are all connected but from several generations back.
There are several family members on here researching various directions of origin without seemingly knowing they are related.
Would it be an idea to attempt to put the various bits of family info together.
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Killycoogan/940484/
I don't know if this is of any use. My great aunt Martha Lamont who married Willie surgenor and also lived in Portglenone in Killycoogan townland. I'm not sure of williams background but i have relatives in Canada who looked into the surgenor family. Have e mailed them to find out what they have knowledge of. All the stuff they gave me was from after 1880 . But they only gave me what was of interest
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Hi,
I have a record of the marriage of Willie SURGEONER to Martha Lamont in 1899 in Portglenone first Presbyterian Church. The fathers' names were Hugh Surgeoner and James Lamont.
Regards
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Yes thanks I have a lot of information on this family including all the marriages. Hope I can help if needed
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I discovered the website www.thebraid.com/genealogy.aspx to be helpful in finding headstone inscriptions from 42 historic graveyards in the Borough of Ballymena. There are several Kyles to be found. Regards Dianes
The Kyle's have been in Bracknamuckley for several generations.
The Co Antrim Portglenone family are all connected but from several generations back.
There are several family members on here researching various directions of origin without seemingly knowing they are related.
Would it be an idea to attempt to put the various bits of family info together.
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I can advise that John Kyle was apparently still alive and his wife Elizabeth (Lizzie) Surgenor deceased, when their son, John Kyle married a Sarah Rutherford in Scotland in 1896, so possibly is this John:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Lisnagarran/Bracknamuckley/940273/
I assume the siblings George and John moved to same area in Scotland (ie Lanarkshire) and therefore that George's wife was named Jessie Laughlin? It also seems a brother William moved there too, and married Sarah Rutherford's sister, Elizabeth Rutherford (looks to have been a second marriage for Elizabeth as she is also recorded under McLuckie). It further seems their brother James also spent time in Scotland, see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,464342.0.html
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I am also researching Kyles in the area. I noticed the following on the already mentioned www.thebraid.com;
Erected by James Kyle Bracknamuckley in memory of his father John Kyle also his mother Elizabeth Surgenor Kyle and his beloved wife Ellen Greer Kyle who died 27th July 1942 aged 76. Also the above named James Kyle Died 9th 1946 Aged 78 years.
The burial place is the Portglenone Church of Ireland. No death dates for John and Elizabeth.
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Apologies for the plug!
"The Surgeoners, another grand old stock, had a Scottish origin...By industry, perseverance and laudable ambitions they always maintained themselves in a high rank"
- Robert Sibbett's "On The Shining Bann" might be out of date and out of print but it's a good read, with much detail on Portglenone history and familes. NIFHS (North of Ireland Family History Society) sell a CD version.
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HI, I am the great-great-granddaughter of William Surgenor who was the brother of Lizzy Surgenor (Kyle). Bracknamuckly is in the Ballymena area.
Helen McArdle (Regan/Fullerton/Eagleson/Surgenor/Kyle)
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Hi Helen is that Willie surgenor who married martha Lamont. If so we are related. Martha was my great aunt
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Hi my gr.gr.grandfather was William Surgenor married to Mary Kyle. He is 70 on the 1901 census .He was born in1844.
I am only beginning to explore the family so I am not sure if he had a descendant called willie but
I do know that his granddaughter Lena eagleson married James Lamont Adair around 1912 his mother was Jane lamont and his father William John Adair
I would love to find a relative :) hope this helps
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Hi think my calculation was incorrect William surgenor was 70 on the 1911 census. Not sure of exact date of death but will look it up Helen
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I will do a bit of researching . I have another relative who has kyles on his other side of the family
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William Surgenor died in1923 he was 85
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focusing only on Surgenor in Portglenone civil parish
Location SPELLING as used in each record as are the variants for Surgenor.
Surgener, Surgeoner, Surgeonner , Surgeonner, Surgenor, Surginer, etc.
Combining two sources and using their abbreviations
TAB = Tithe-Applotments Books http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/portglenone-parish.php#.V45n0Veoc5Q 1825-1834
GV = Griffith's Valuation http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ for area 1862
grouping by townland
Galgorm which should be in Ahoghill or Kirkinriola
Surgenor, William Galgorm 1825 TAB
Gortaheran has Kyle, Lamont in GV
Surgeonner, Hugh Gortaheron 1825 TAB
Surgener, Hugh Gortaheron 1834 TAB
Surgeonner, Lewis Gortaheron 1825 TAB
Surgenor, Samuel Gortaheran GV 1862 house fifteen shillings map ref map ref 27c
Surgenor William Gortaheran GV 1862 9 acreS fifteen shillings map ref GV 1862
Killycoogan has Kyle, Lamont IN GV
Surgeoner, John Killycoogan 1825 TAB
Surgener, John Killycoogan 1834 TAB
Surgener, John Killycoogan GV 8 acres house £2 five shillings pa map ref 17,18,19
Surgeoner, William Killycoogan 1825 TAB
Surgener, Wm. Killycoogan 1834 TAB
Surgener, Elizabeth. Killycoogan GV 1862 19 acres house £1 fifteen shillings map ref 22
Kilcurry
Surgenor, Glover Kilcurry GV 1862 house only ten shillings
Tullynahinnion
Surginer, Jas. Tullanahinnion 1825 TAB
Surgener, James Tullanahinnion GV 1862 house onlyten shillings map ref 4Bb or $b
Surgener, Hugh Tullanahinnion GV 1862 13 acres house fifteen shillings map ref 3
the name is in griffiths valuation, examples eg Ballyclosh in Ahoghill and in Craigs, Brocklamont Ahoghill, Groggan Drummaul, Brocklamont (Kirkinriola) Galgorm ,Parks Ahoghill, Back Street,Ballyclare Grange of Doagh, Smithfield Townparks Conway Street Shankill
Some negative searches
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/ahoghill-parish.php#.V45klVeoc5Q
1825 no surgenors
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/kirkinriola-parish.php#.V45riVeoc5Q
1833 no surgenors
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/drummaul-parish.php#.V48lKFeoc5Q
1834 no surgenors
see http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/grange-of-doagh-parish.php#.V45oaFeoc5Q
1834 no surgenors
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/ballymoney-parish.php#.V45nS1eoc5Q
1825 no surgenors
positive searches in TAB
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/ballyclug-parish.php#.V5FLZleoc5Q
Surgener, John Townland: Deerfin Year: 1825
positive searches in Griffiths valuation
Surgeoner George Ballyclug
Surgeoner John Kirkinriola
back to you solvers