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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: earlybird on Sunday 23 September 12 14:06 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm wondering wether anyone may have connections to John Egge (riverboat captain & businessman of Chinese extraction) & his wife, Mary Perring.
According to the online Australian Dictionary of Biography they had 11 children. Is any one able to help me out with the names of those children?
John Egge was a witness to my g-g-grandmother's wedding but it's the other witness named on the certificate I'm most interested in at the moment - 'Adelaide Lenord'. Is it possible Adelaide is an adult daughter of John & Mary?
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Hi there,
NSW BDM is online and free to search
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births
eight registrations found there for EGGE, with parents as John and Mary :)
Adding, http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/egge-john-12902 perhaps not all children were born in NSW
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
NSW Electoral Roll 1870, BALRANALD, in the police district of Wentworth.
John EGGE, freeholder, at Wentworth
This indicates to me that he was a British Subject when he enrolled.
NSW ER 1878 BALRANALD,
John EGGE, freeholder, at Wentworth.
NSW ER 1903, RIVERINA, polling at Wentworth
Edwin David EGGE, captain of steamer
Richard John EGGE, billiard marker
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
NSW State Records Office ONLINE Naturalisation Index
John EGGE, of Shanghai, China, Date of certificate 10 June 1868.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=30
That certificate would confirm his British Subject status. The NSW SRO offers a copy service (there are charges) for photocopies of the file. Naturalisation Certificates can provide a wealth of family history details, including confirmation of arrival into the Colony (name of ship, date of arrival, length of time at various addresses, status when applying (married/single, name of spouse, number of children etc)
Cheers, JM
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Many thanks JM for your swift replies! From the NSW BDM search it looks like they had a daughter called 'Amelia Adelaide' so that's a thread I can follow.
You're quite right, the other 3 children were possibly born in another colony (most likely SA) so I can check that out at the Family History collection of a neighbouring public library (I come from South Aust). I know his wife's family spent time in SA when they first arrived from Devon.
Thanks again for your research & feedback. Much appreciated. EB
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Looks like their marriage took place in South Australia:
1857
30/461
EGGE
John
PERRING
Mary
Encounter Bay
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/home.html
Leanne
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Thanks Leanne, that would make sense.
I've found out since last night that the other children were born in SA so it's all falling into place.
I think Mary Perring had a sister called Adelaide (internet surfing) but her married name was not Lenord so the witness on the marriage cert is still a mystery!
EB
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From my resource
EGGE John 26 years Status not recorded Father unrecorded
PERRING Mary 18 years Status not recorded Father Peter PERRING
8 Apr 1857
At St Jude Church Port Elliot EnB 308461
Not to do with your search but I thought you may like to see this church today...was built c1853. There are many photos on the web but some appear distorted. I think it is a delightful church....have walked past it many times ;D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/a777thunder1/5844084368/
I've found out since last night that the other children were born in SA so it's all falling into place.
Only one birth registered to this couple in SA
EGGE Richard John
15 Jul 1860
Father John EGGE Mother Mary PERRING
At Goolwa EnB 21/69
I think Mary Perring had a sister called Adelaide (internet surfing) but her married name was not Lenord so the witness on the marriage cert is still a mystery!
If you have a copy of your gggrandmother's marriage cert could you snip the signature and post here.
It is possible you have misread the name of the witness...could it be SEWARD as....
Birth
HILLIER Mary Jane
4 Aug 1851
Father Amos HILLIER Mother Adelaide PERRING
At Adelaide Ade 3/249
Marriage
SEWARD William 25 years Status Single Father unrecorded
HILLIER Adelaide 26 years Status single?? Father unrecorded
11 Feb 1856
At St Jude Church Port Elliot EnB 26/137
Birth with another variation on the surname
SEUARD John Henery
28 Sep 1858
Father William SEUARD Mother Adelaide PERRING
At Hindmarsh Island EnB 16/380
Another variation of the surname - SEAWARD.
When and where did you gggrandmother's marriage take place?
Cando
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Your profile is not complete but from your posts I see you live in the Riverland and not that far from me ;)
Cheers
Cando
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1875 Greville's Directory for Wentworth includes:
Egge, John, inn and store keeper
Perring, Mrs, midwife
Perring, Richard
Seward, William
Jean
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Here's the marriage cert. I had the same thought as you Cando about the surname Seward but when I look at the name again all I see is 'Lenord'. EB
Attachment removed
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Yes but what you see and is not what the registrar or Greville's directory have :).
1875 Greville's Directory for Wentworth includes:
Egge, John, inn and store keeper
Perring, Mrs, midwife
Perring, Richard
Seward, William
Jeanlit...thanks Jean :)
You are not permitted to post the complete certificate on rootschat. Can you attach a snip of the signature only?
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting.php#add_attach
Where and when did you gggrandmother's marriage take place?
Cheers
Cando
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I've had a look at the certificate - is it co-incidence that all the writing on the certificate appears to be in the same handwriting?
Jean
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I was typing up the post with the red warning light...could see the text of your messge but not the certificate.
The certificate is all written in the same hand. Yes it does look like Lenord but could also be Seward. It is not Adelaide's signature as the name has simply been transcribed. I am not au fait with NSW certificates.
This death places them in the area
2843/1868
SEAWARD James R
Father William Mother Adelaide
District Wentworth
1875 has the SEWARD's living at Wentworth.
Cheers
Cando
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I've had a look at the certificate - is it co-incidence that all the writing on the certificate appears to be in the same handwriting?
Jean
Yes it appears to be transcribed. As I mentioned I not familiar with NSW certs. When you purchase a cert in Vic you get a photocopy of the actual entry in the register with the bride, groom, witness and officiating minister's signatures.
Cando
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Adelaide and William both died in Mildura. They were on the 1909 electoral roll living at Lime Avenue. Wm had occupation labourer.
SEWARD Adelaide Jane
Father PERRING, Peter Mother Jane COOMBS
At Mildura 79 years 1909 Reg#13583
SEWARD William
Parents unknown
At Mildura 84 years 1909 Reg#13591
A funeral notice for William published in the Mildura Cultivatstates Wm is to be buried at Wentworth cemetery.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0rb1/
There is no SEWARD MI but there is an EGGE one.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deadsearch/wentworth_church.htm
The research places Adelaide SEWARD in Wentworth area between 1868 and 1909. I am convinced the name is Adelaide SEWARD on your gggrandmother marriage certificate in 1875.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi there,
I hope I can help with some info :)
Firstly it is very very likely that the NSW BDM would be issuing a certificate based on a summary report that has NOT ever been reconciled with any Church register.......
Question ..... Is there any markings outside the margin near where the Father's Rank/Profession OUGHT to be recorded? If not, then I would anticipate that there has been NO reconciliation.
Background : Until 1895 the Clergy of NSW were usually sending ONLY a summary of their registers for marriage to the NSW BDM. Thus they were NOT including the birth place/s for the bride/groom not their respective ages, nor the details for the four parents, nor the occupations of the fathers of the bride/groom .
HOWEVER, ;D ;D ;D that information was of course required to be collected by Church Law and recorded on the Parish Register. EDIT TO ADD I am not sure which Diocese covers Wentworth, perhaps Bathurst/Wilcannia ? I think the Bathurst Diocese is currently being transcribed :) and could be on familysearch.org in the not too distant future. I am waiting on confirmation of that from another RChatter re a marriage in the 1870s at Lucknow
In 1912 the Reconcilation process (NSW BDM records to Church Registers) commenced. But The Great War saw many of the BDM clerks enlist (often to perform vital clerical and admin duties, including preparing the information for Base Records and sadly often preparing the coded telegrams for the families back home).
The reconciliation process has not ever been completed (NSW BDM has a long history of funding issues ! back to when it was first established ! ).
I think you will find that any mc from any rural/regional area of NSW has most likely never been reconciled, and thus it is most likely that the NSW BDM mc is in the ONE hand, usually that of the Officiating Minister. As I understand it, the mc shows a marriage in November 1874, and a NSW BDM registration in 1875. This, to me at least, indicates that the clergyman submitted the details at the END of the Dec Quarter, perhaps along with all (if any) other marriages he had conducted that quarter/that year. Perhaps he spent ONE full day writing up the summaries for the quarter/year, perhaps late December or early January. Thus a marriage recorded in his parish register for November may mean he had to rely on his own memory as to Adelaide's surname IF her handwriting was causing him difficulty in reading her signature.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html This is a thread I did up about how to overcome hurdles on NSW BDM mcs from that era.
Cheers, JM
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I have just re-checked one of NSW BDMs webpages. The link http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm
The vital words "The task of reconciling the Church Records for marriages between 1856 and 1895 was never finalised. Some of the Registry's marriage records from these years still have missing information. "
and (my highlighting in red)
"The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration."
Cheers, JM
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From Grevilles 1875 WENTWORTH
Rev'd William COCKS, (CE)
James HARRIS, carrier
Joseph HARRIS, dairy
John HOWARD,
Apart from Seward and Howard I cannot see any other likely surnames in that 1875 directory prepared for publication from a closing date in 1874
Also, NONE surnamed MILLIGAN in that PO directory
This is in additional to jeanlit's list 1875 Greville's Directory for Wentworth includes:
Egge, John, inn and store keeper
Perring, Mrs, midwife
Perring, Richard
Seward, William
Jean
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Whoops! SORRY :-\ I didn't realise I was not meant to post a whole cert. Perhaps I should read the instructions!!
This discussion has turned out to be very intertesting. I didn't realise there were discrepancies between the church records and the NSW BDM records. I'm not that far from Wentworth so may take a scenic drive in the near future to clear this mystery up once and for all.
I'll be keen to see if the bride's first name has been transcribed correctly (it should be Elizabeth Jane not Ann). It's possible that g-g-grandmother deliberately used Ann instead of Eliz Jane to cover her tracks (and a former marriage)
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to these posts. I appreciate your input & expertise.
Will keep you posted on any further developments.
Cheers, Earlybird
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P.S. Mrs Perring the midwife is probably Anne Perring (named on the 1878 birth cert for EJ Harris & JB Milligan's daughter, Elizabeth Alice Milligan)
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Many references to Perring and John Egge on trove.
The Perring family arrived in Adelaide in 1849, see
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article71622934
John Egge is especially interesting because of his Chinese heritage and the fact that South Australia refused him entry until he paid a poll-tax. (I searched for John Egge and Chinese on trove.)
Cheers
Jean
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Thanks jeanlit, yes I've seen those articles and was aware of when the Perrings arrived. John Egge's story is certainly interesting. From what I've gather he was a much respected citizen in Wentworth which is remarkable considering his Chinese background and the fact he married a white British woman. You would have expected Mary and their children to have been shunned, at that time.
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Hi Earlybird, I was interested to see your posts re John Egge. The names are very familiar as my gg gm Susan Ann Perring was the youngest sibling of Adelaide Jane Perring.
Their mother Jane is `Granny Perring’ midwife in 1870 for one of my Kerridge family. A family memoir states she had to leave on the 2nd day when her daughter Mrs Egge became ill.
Did you manage to find the 11 Egge children? I’ve only managed 9 so far but know that it was not uncommon for births to be unregistered. I’ve tried to gather all the lines of these related families. The name Adelaide turns up in 9 of the extended Egge clan.
Happy to elaborate, best wishes Heather
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Hello. I saw your post - Captain John Egge is my great, great, great, great Grandfather on my mother's side. There was actually a family reunion of the Egge's in Wentworth about fifteen years ago - I've looked for the date, but I don't have it with me at the moment.
John and Mary's Children: (this is information that was passed to me from my grandfather, in order of birth)
1. James Peter (died at birth)
2. Richard John (15/7/1860)
3. Susan Mary (12/6/1864)
4. Francis James (29/6/1866)
5. Edwin Davies (8/12/1869)
6. Ellena Jane (22/12/1871)
7. Amelia Adelaide (18/10/1873)
8. Maud Lucy (16/3/1875)
9. William Frederick (24/6/1877)
10. son (died at birth)
11. daughter (died at birth)
I am a decendant of Maud Lucy, who is my great, great, great grandmother. If you can tell me which of the lines you are interested in, I have more detailed accounts of the children/marriages of most of the children - the names and dates of birth. I don't have official documents though.
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Hi Skyflyte, I'm not an Egge descendant, rather from the Perring line and with an interest in the extended family connections at Wentworth. My great great grandmother was Susan Ann Perring, the youngest sibling of Mary, Mrs Egge. Susan married Francis Durant Kerridge 1864 at Yelta and Mary Egge was a witness.
The only addition I have to your list of the Egge children are dates for Peter James Egge - but unfortunately with no attribution (4 - 28 May 1862). I have Peter & Jane Perring's death certs. and Susan's.
And yesterday I found another connection although the press item has a mis-translation .. common enough in telegraphed news items back then. The death of my gt grandfather "George Durrant Kerridge 63, a gardener of Curlwa NSW, who had just arrived on a visit, collapsed and died at the residence of Mrs A A Dagetts, Devon st Largs". The Advertiser 4 March 1929.
I'm told his funeral left the home of Mrs A Paget, Devon st, Largs Bay. Surely this is Amelia Adelaide (Egge) Paget rather than an AA Dagetts. I too have detailed accounts of most of the extended family, although less of Maud Lucy. Happy to share, Thanks for responding, Heather