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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: nickgc on Saturday 22 September 12 08:06 BST (UK)
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I get a distinct feeling that a lot of small Scottish town/villages have simply disappeared in the past 100-200 years. Is that correct? I look at Scotland's Place website and usually can't find them. Nor are they found through a Google search.
The first one is in Kilmorack parish (1808) and is the name of the place that Hugh Munro's wife, Margaret Calder is from. Looks to me like "Teanaalan". Other names on this page that have the same initial letter seem to be "Teanafsie", "Torrogormack" and "Teachnuick".
The next image is just me complaining... I am quite sure it is a multi x greats gma's birth, but don't you love how the recorder just refers to the mother as "his spouse"? "This day... bapt. Catherine, daughter of Hugh Munro, Tenant Kilcoy, and his spouse..."
Thanks,
Nick
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I love these Scottish place name searches. I will have a better look later (am doing this on my phone atm) but might what you think is a T be an I or a J? That probably won't help but it might give a few other search possibilities. Sometimes the smallest little places such as farmsteads were noted as places of birth in Scotland. I like to have a dig around some old maps to see if Ican find these places. There are some wonderful maps on the NLS site. If you can't find them I will provide a link later when I am on the desktop.
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In the second one, I love "...in presence of some women". ;D
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Map
Teanassie http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=247287&Y=843960&A=Y&Z=115
Torgormack http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=248457&Y=845030&A=Y&Z=115
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So far I have found Teandalloch and Teanluick Croft ... (NE of Torgormack).
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I found Kiltarlity Cottage (south of Kilmorack, south of the river) ... :-\
+Teanassie (further 'downstream") ... Teanalick ... Teanroit .... :-\
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Teanassie... of course! After all these years you'd think I would would consider that 200 yr old records could well be using 1 or more "long esses".
So it looks like the one I am looking for (Teanaalan) does have an initial "T".
Here is another bummer: this couple had 5 children from the time they were married until they immigrated to Nova Scotia: 1807, 1809, 1811, 1813, and 1815. I've shown you the 1809. The 1807, 1813, and 1815 all have the child and both parents listed. The other one I bought (1811), with more hope than forethought had both parents, but didn't give name or sex: "... had a child bapt named __________."
Nick
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Great Ruskie ... I'll go look at the NLS maps. At least we know the prefix "teana" was a logical name. I'll try to determine how far it might have been from Hugh's location in Kiltarlity.
If I can find NLS that is - haven't had to look at these maps for a long time.
Nick
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"This day... bapt. Catherine, daughter of Hugh Munro, Tenant Kilcoy, and his spouse..."
In the second one, I love "...in presence of some women". ;D
I've never been able to understand how men got this attitude about women. Did they seriously think that they arrived on the planet fully formed and their mothers had nothing to do with it? Credit where it's due please :o ::)
Linda
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I just had a problem and had to close my windows down.
THe NLS map was 'OS 6inch to the mile 1848-1882' (or that's the best I can remember - it may not be exact). I have had to close the map and did not note the distances, but all of the 'Tean' prefix names were close to Kiltarlity. The 'alaan' at the end of the word may have a meaning which might help find it's location? (eg. 'by a river' or some such thing?)
Linda, difficult to judge the men's attitude from these few words - it could be that the women were unknown (passers by, or out of towners who just happened to be there to witness the baptism). That's how I read it anyway. (but I could be wrong :))
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Try this Nick:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0r9p/
(I have no idea if it will take you to the appropriate part of the map, but I hope it does)
Yes, I just tried the link and it seems to work. You can just scroll around the area by dragging it with your mouse. I have it set on overlay which overlays a modern and old map. The map is centered on kiltarilty cottage. Teanassie is almost in a straight line to the left just over the river. THere are other "Tean" prefix places to the north somewhere. :-\
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Just a thought - I wonder if the "Teana..." element is an Anglicised version of the Gaelic "Tigh na ..." (hope that's spelt right!) which I understand means "house of ..."
There's some interesting information on the website of the Scottish Place Name Society - http://www.spns.org.uk/ - follow the link to Resources towards the bottom of the home page, then go to "Index of Celtic and Other Elements in W.J.Watson's 'The History of the Celtic Place-names of Scotland'" for some pretty comprehensive lists.
Arthur
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Great list Arthur!
I can't see Tean, but Tea is on the list.
Also 'alan' meaning rock place stony stream, so I suppose we should be following all of the streams in the search for Teanaalan. :)
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On the SPNS site, if you look at the entry for "tigh" (following the links I mentioned above), you'll see among other notes "Angl. tea..." I'm taking this to mean that the Gaelic form is sometimes found Anglicised as "tea...", and I think it would be pronounced exactly the same. The "na" bit is found under "an" - as far as I can tell, this is something to do with Gaelic inflexions and how words change before or after vowels.
Arthur
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I get a distinct feeling that a lot of small Scottish town/villages have simply disappeared in the past 100-200 years. Is that correct? I look at Scotland's Place website and usually can't find them. Nor are they found through a Google search.
The first one is in Kilmorack parish (1808) and is the name of the place that Hugh Munro's wife, Margaret Calder is from. Looks to me like "Teanaalan". Other names on this page that have the same initial letter seem to be "Teanafsie", "Torrogormack" and "Teachnuick".
The next image is just me complaining... I am quite sure it is a multi x greats gma's birth, but don't you love how the recorder just refers to the mother as "his spouse"? "This day... bapt. Catherine, daughter of Hugh Munro, Tenant Kilcoy, and his spouse..."
Thanks,
Nick
looks to me like Jeana alan its defiantly a (J, )
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Found it! And it is described in a brilliant resource by Simon Taylor, 2002, entitled Place name survey of Kilmorack, Kiltarlity & Convinth and Kirkhll, Inverness-shire (PDF)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ra5/
I think I will post it as a Scotland Resource link.
Thanks very much for all the help. I still need to review some of the links that posted since I logged off early this am.
Nick
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Using Ruskie's info from post at 12:18 (thanks!), and the very specific location of NH526475 from the Teanalan blurb I posted I was able to zoom in very close. These two sources together are a great combination for people like me who like to make maps of where our ancestors lived. See red dot for very close location of this house/farm former location. I'll have to try to find on my favorite Google Earth.
Nick
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I'm glad you found the location of Teanalan Nick.
The Simon Taylor resource looks like it deserves a place in the Scotland Resources.
Arthur - I see what you mean about the Tea followed by the na.
You learn something new on rootschat every day. ;D
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Nick, have to had a look at google maps to try to locate Teanalan?
I believe I have found Wellbank (which is just south of your location for Teanalan) on google maps, but the spot where Teanalan is on the old map appears to be just fields with no indication of any dwelling/s. Of course these could have disappeared over the years, but a lot of the other places on the old map correspond with places which still exist today, including farm buildings. How sure are you that you have the co-ordinates correctly placed on the old map? (not doubting you but just double checking in the hope that Teanalan still exists ;))
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Hi Ruskie,
I use Google Earth because it lets me zoom around more easily, quickly plug in lats and longs for locations (and saves them for me!), and use some drawing tools to, for example, draw in property lines if I know them. If anyone is interested I can show a jpg example of a a map I was creating of some old family-held land when a research colleague emailed me that he was in Nova Scotia and wondered how far he was from Black Brook Lake. I fired up Google Earth, brought up my image and drew a straight line the lake to his location and told him which roads would get him there.
Back to Tealan: Yes, I am sure it is a close as can be. Click your 12:18 link again. At bottom right it will show an NH number, and lat/long. As you move your cursor around, they both change to indicate your new location. I was exactly at NH526475 when I noted the location and used a screen capture to grab the map I show in my 23:11 message. It is not off by more than a few meters, I am sure. It shows a different NH number on the image, but the cursor necessarily moved when I went to select my screen capture tool.
Go ahead and try this using the Historical Overlay Maps from NLS
and one of the NH locations from the Simon Taylor dissertation.
Nick
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Hi Nick,
It seems as though you have the placenames sorted, but I couldn't help with that ;D
The baptism sounds like a hastily assembled private baptism, born 21st last and baptised 22nd Jan. Perhaps Mr Kennedy who performed the baptism didn't know the mother's name when he notified the local incumbent. If the child survived then there may be a later entry for the admission into the Church. (Assuming that Scotland followed the same practices as in England & Wales)
Colin
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Hi Nick. I will have a fiddle with those co-ordinates later. So there looks to be no trace of Teanalan which is a shame (unless Simon Taylor's co-ordinates were wrong). I had a bit of a look around the area on google street view and it looks idyllic.
For some of the Scottish research I did for my brother in law I have managed to locate existing farmsteads where his families lived which was very exciting.
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I really wish I could see the map that NLS has, but is not digitized. Here is another link to the assessment of Lord Lovat's property in this area, and on page 7 it indeed places Teanalan right between Tomich and Wellhouse. Just found this a couple of hours ago when I was doing more searching for the actual map (I guess it runs to 8 large sheets.
http://arts.st-andrews.ac.uk/beauly/pdfs/maybeaulyfinal.pdf
Since I have now pretty well placed where all my maternal ancestors were in Scotland in early 1800s, before migrating to Canada, I have been putting together a map laden itinerary with hopes of spending some time there... maybe in the Spring.
Nick
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Excellent Nick! :) There may be someone who can do a lookup for you and perhaps photograph the relevant section of the map. It might be worth putting out a request.
Have you been to Scotland before?
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On that last link, about half way down the page where Teanalan is noted, there is a list of 6 names. Am I right in thinking that these are the 'buildings' that made up 'Teanalan'?
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Yes Ruskie, on the buildings - at least that is my interpretation as well. No, I've not been to Scotland before, but have threatened to many times.
By two big complaints about my siblings is that my older sister bought a Mercedes SL model before I did, and my younger sister went to Scotland before I did. ;D
Nick
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Scotland is a wonderful place! Hire a car, give yourself pleny of time to explore and enjoy your adventure!
[You can always sell your Merc to pay for your holiday. ;D]
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Hi Nick
I'm sittting here about five miles away from Kiltarlity ( if that's any help )
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Hi Nick
I'm sittting here about five miles away from Kiltarlity ( if that's any help )
Put the kettle on. I think Nick is on his way. ;D
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I certainly hope so Ruskie. BTW, I never did get a Mercedes. Instead I bought my favorite vehicle ever, a 1956 short-bed F-100 Ford pickup.
This ain't mine, but paint it robin's egg blue and that is about what it looked like when I finished working on it and sold it 5 years ago.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0rd4/
And thanks inveryes for the offer... ever go to Old Kiltarlity grave yard?
Nick
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I certainly hope so Ruskie. BTW, I never did get a Mercedes. Instead I bought my favorite vehicle ever, a 1956 short-bed F-100 Ford pickup.
This ain't mine, but paint it robin's egg blue and that is about what it looked like when I finished working on it and sold it 5 years ago.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0rd4/
Looks very nice indeed Nick (I have a very soft spot for old vehicles) ..... but, you sold it! :'(
[Must get back on topic before I get into trouble.]
I hope inveryes manages to find something exciting for you in the grave yard (burial ground). ;)
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I certainly hope so Ruskie. BTW, I never did get a Mercedes. Instead I bought my favorite vehicle ever, a 1956 short-bed F-100 Ford pickup.
This ain't mine, but paint it robin's egg blue and that is about what it looked like when I finished working on it and sold it 5 years ago.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0rd4/
And thanks inveryes for the offer... ever go to Old Kiltarlity grave yard?
Nick
Haven't been yet (no relations buried there) but I'd be happy to have a look for you, if it ever stops raining.
( Like the Ford by the way - very nice!)