RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Mayo => Topic started by: stacey2411 on Wednesday 19 September 12 22:25 BST (UK)
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hi im new to this site so just hoping someone can help....
Iv started researching my mcgreal family tree and am now at the point where it comes to ireland and im getting a bit stuck....
My grandfather was timothy mcgreal born 1908 liverpool timothys father was john joseps mcgreal born 1858 mayo but came to liverpool sometime before 1881.
I have a little information about john joseph he was a cattle doctor on the ships.He married in 1889 in liverpool to a lady called mary catherine coughlin, they had 13 children.
The name of his father was recorded as being jacobi ?? now this is where i am stuck as i cant find any records for a jacobi i know that when they were in ireland the surname spelling was slightly different.
how do i find the birthplace of john joseph 1858 as im a bit unsure of what areas of mayo to look for now im sure westport has come up somewhere but im not entiley sure.
if i can find birth records for john joseph 1858 i might be able to work out jacobis details!!! any help would be appreciated thanks for reading :)
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hi,,i suspect Jacobi to be the Latin for James. Many baptism and marriages are recorded in Latin,and the Latin name is entered.
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some examples
Carolus: Charles
Demetrius: Jeremiah, Jerome, Dermot, Darby
Eugenius: Owen, Eugene
Gulielmus: William
Hannah: Anne
Honoria: Hannah, Nora
Ioannes: John
Jacobus: James
Joannes: John
Joanna: Jane, Joan
Nigelus: Niall, Neil
Thaddeus: Timothy
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just looking through the many notes i have and westport is definately where the family came from!! also iv found a note regarding john james 1858 christening the christening was sponcered by a john mcgreal and a catherine mally pesided by m mchale cc
so thats left me more confused as marriage records state johns father been jacobi!!!
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Hi Stacey and welcome to Rootschat :)
Have I got the right man?
1891 - John McGreal born 1867 Westport with wife Mary C.
regards
heywood
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just looking through the many notes i have and westport is definately where the family came from!! also iv found a note regarding john james 1858 christening the christening was sponcered by a john mcgreal and a catherine mally pesided by m mchale cc
so thats left me more confused as marriage records state johns father been jacobi!!!
Do you mean John Joseph's christening. The sponsor, John McGreal is the godparent - not the father.
Where do you have the baptism record from and do you have John Joseph in 1881 in Liverpool?
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hi again
my john joseph was born in 1585, and i recieved a small amount of info from a man who had a branch of my family tree he knew nothing more than what iv told you about the christening so no i dont know where this info comes from iv tried looking for westport births but have had no luck!! so the sponcers are the god parents??
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hi again,
yes i think iv got john james and family in uk in 1881!! if jacobi is a james i have the another lead!! james mcgreal 1837 born?? maried mary?? 1839 he is listed as being a farm labourer and she a seamstress...
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http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ has the marriage in 1889
John McGreil and Mary Catherine Coughlin
You can get the reference from there and send for the marriage certificate
1891 has the couple I mentioned John born 1867, wife Mary C and baby daughter Catherine.
Do you have any other children's names besides Timothy to check the family?
Did the man give you John J's year of birth?
Just read your recent post- is he John Joseph (as in your first) or John James as your last posts?
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hi again,
yes i think iv got john james and family in uk in 1881!! if jacobi is a james i have the another lead!! james mcgreal 1837 born?? maried mary?? 1839 he is listed as being a farm labourer and she a seamstress...
This family are living in Heaton Norris and some are still there in 1891 - including son John. This John is born 1858 which may be where your information comes from.
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hi agian
haywood thats correct they had lots of kids!!
catherine 1890
mary ellen 1891 - 1891
elizabeth 1893
john joseph 1896
winifred 1897 - 1898
thomas 1899
james 1900
mary catherine 1902
rose 1904
johanna 1906 - 1906
timothy 1909
bridget may 1910 - 1911
margaret 1912
but yes i do think you are right with the date of birth for my john joseph
as i say im only guessing at the heaton norris family not sure now its them as i have been talking to someone else and now i have doubts!!!
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hi again
thought id just mention it was going through the incoming passengers lists that iv got john josephs date of birth so nothing solid but john joseph worked on the cattle ships job title cattle man on ships/ droover
but in some records he was registered as alien which is a vet!!
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hi again
thought id just mention it was going through the incoming passengers lists that iv got john josephs date of birth so nothing solid but john joseph worked on the cattle ships job title cattle man on ships/ droover
but in some records he was registered as alien which is a vet!!
iv just searched with the 1867 date and yeah its him 1891 census in everton!!!
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Hi again,
Did the family emigrate? You mention passenger lists/alien ???
Have you got them in 1901/1911?
If John was born after 1864, there should hopefully be a birth registration for him.
Heywood
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Hi Stacey
Did you purchase the birth cert of Timothy Mcgreal to confirm his parents names.I see a family in 1911 census indexes Liverpool. There is also a Timothy and a Rose who are in an institution. The children of the family of John Mcgreal and Mary Coughlan are listed on the online births but these records only go up to 1906,so Timothy would not be shown.
The Irish Mayo Ancestors site shows a John Mcgreal born 1857 to a James Mcgreal and a Bridget O'Brien.It would not be worth purchasing the record as it only shows the date,denomination and Parish no Townland Address.There is a James Mcgreal in the Griffths Valuation living in Farburren Westport,but this list only shows people renting or owning land so if your ancestor was not a farmer there will be no record.Mostly ignore dates on census records they are often out by 5 -10yrs espically Irish .
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No i didnt get timothys birth certificate yet but i do posses some information from the army and the international red cross stating parents names so yes parents are confirmed!! the births and deaths of the children after 1906 are on the free bdm site and can be found.
and yeah im having real problems finding my john in mayo as back then it seems records were parish records and placing him within a parish is where im stuck at the moment!!!
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Hi Stacey,
There are several families with the Mcgreal name in Westport and surrounding Townlands of Owenwee and Bolybrein which is about 5 miles from Westport Town. My own family is Mcgreal from Owenwee,including my ancestors born 1850c but with father called Patrick.The parish is Oughaval sometimes called Augavale. The church is St. Marys Westport,you could try writing to them and see if they have a birth of John with a father James around the 1857-1867 period.
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thanks for that owenwee
but im still not sure that johns father is james!!! i am awaiting the marriage cert for john and mary so hopefully will know more when i recieve that as to whom the parents are!!! so when i get that i will find the parish into which he was born all very frustrating until i get the facts
regards
stacey
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I see the Parish record in St Mary's Liverpool,the names are in Latin but looking online does appear that Joannes stands for John and Jacobi for James.
Good Luck in your search.
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thanks owenwee
very frustrating for me!!! especially as iv been informed today all is not what it seems.........but that doesnt suprise me as iv had a lot of suprises about my grandad things no one knew!!! lets just say he was an extremly private man as he never told his children about what iv found out about his life but maybe thats because he didnt want any pity??
watch this space as hopefully will be updated on wednesday.......
intruiged?? yeah so am i.......
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You have me intrigued now,i will keep a look in for your update.Just found a James Mcgreal living in Boleybrien in the 1856 Valuation List. This is 5 miles from Westport.
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Hello Mrs Thorne,
I will have to do all this in two separate posts to retain clarity.
If you log into Mundia.com and search for a John McGreal dob 1867 and view the tree, there are two researchers who have John and Mary Coughlin detailed . The Coughlin family are the ones married to your 1867 John as some are neighbours in the 1891 Census.John is consistent with his age on the 1890 census and the overseas records so I have no reason to doubt 1867 as an approx date of birth.
The parents are shown as a John Ralph McGreal and a Bridget. This is so far left of field from what I have seen on the McGreal families of the Westport Parish ,that at best one of these researchers must have obtained the details from John and Marys wedding cert,which hopefully you will have shortly.
Civil registration of births for Catholics started in 1864, but only became compulsory after 1874 with 1874 Births and Deaths Registration Act. (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lankshear/fhlinks/civil_registration__timelines.htm)If the birth was not registered we could still expect a baptismal record to exist as records for the Aughaval Parish (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseaction=showidrecords&CityCounty=Mayo&parish=Aughaval&churchid=1043) are fairly complete for our time period.
A birth record for John (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYRH-1P8) exists as does a later death record (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRR5-M27). Failing this test , Mayoancestors has baptismal details with clues as to parents names. Johns born in South Mayo are of interest for years around 1867 (http://www.mayoancestors.com/default.aspx?SID=1140245&Type=BI) give us no better idea. The closest match a R McG and B H is a Richard McGreal and Bridget Hanley of Linehall St,Castlebar. North Mayo is outside the Westport area.
So we are non the wiser then. I will offer a possible avenue to pursue in the next post.
On a separate note the marriage of John Joseph and Louisa Sharp can be expanded beyond the Mundia tree. Like the tree I sent you in June I have had this tree on my db for some while and not linked the two. Item 1.7 from email, male decendants marry into the Leary, Vick and Boulsover families and female decendats marry into Waterton, Kiggins and Duckworth families. They appear in West Derby,North Liverpool and Wallasey . Any problems drop me a line in a couple of months . NB mark your sources if you are not going to ovtain certificates.
Padraig.
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Hello Stacey,
Over the last fifteen years a lot of work has been done on the McGreal/McGrail families and the connection to the Westport area. From all this and existing online records the name Ralph as a christian or second name is extremely rare. I could only find the name a handful of times in the US .
The marriage record will prove important as it may indicate an error in its interpretation, completion or an attempt to obscure an identity.
A record which took my interest was the birth of a John Ralph (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deesegenes/westbir.htm) to a John Ralph and Bridget McGreal in 1867 of Bridge St Westport which appears in Deesegenes freepages.
The actual baptism (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5JN-VZZ) and civil registration (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYR8-VJ9)
are provided for reference. The marriage took place in 1862 and details are available at RootsIreland (http://www.rootsireland.ie/) a fee paying site.
This is all speculation, John may have chosen to leave Westport and resume a life under the maiden name of his mother . As we both know life in the family while in Liverpool was very unstable not aided by Johns occupation, possibly by choice to remove himself from the domestic situation of family life.
Whilst this is fresh in my mind, a second child was born to John and Bridget a Margaret Anne 1864 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQ5-1F9)
Margaret Ann (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYWM-J3K) marries Patrick Malone (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYWM-ZP6) who inturn bears 11 children nine of whom survive. Those children who survive are Ellen Josephine (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB66-NYZ), Margaret Mary (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBD8-M3D),Thomas (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB8S-W35), Michael Francis (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBJM-RMW), Bridget Ellen 1884, William Joseph (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBV8-Z2H), John Patrick (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB4J-G2N), Patrick Joseph (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBF7-CZH) and Clare (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBKW-3WY).
The couple remained in Ireland and appear in both the 1901 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Westport_Urban/High_Street/1607797/) and 1911 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Westport__Urban/High_Street/749404/) Census.
A Molly Malone (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=136031) a Rootschat forum user has shown an interest in the Ralph family and possibly is descendant of Margaret, Johns sister. You may want to drop her a PM to exchange views.
I am currently trying to find common ground with another researcher on the John Ralph or McGreal who seems to have doubts but it is early days.
The Ralph family in Bridge St were Watchmakers and Jewelers . I am informed that Bridget McGreal father was a John mother as yet not known. and Johns parents were a Patrick and Ann McGreal. If John McGreal was the Bridge St John then he was a Tailor.
There was also a John Ralph born 1869 to a family residing in Peters st
and another John Ralph born around 1867 at The Neale Baliinrobe who later in 1886 joined the British Army and stationed in Ireland, discharged 1902. All thes may muddy the water but HEY HO. I still think the Ralph in Bridge St will unlock the mystery.
A lot there to chew on.
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Hi pat,
many thanks marriage certificate has been bought and paid for just awaiting delivery hopefully it should arrive within the nxt week or so this is very interesting i had actually seen and saved the page stating the birth of a john ralph to the parents you stated also on the top of the page states
Westport Parish Births, some marriages listed. 1862 to 1879
If a Street is listed i. e. Bridge St the location is Westport...
uncanny that you should then tell me about this....
i shall pm Molly Malone 1st and take it from there. I will pm you when i recieve the certificates to keep you updated
again many thanks for your help it has been invaluable to my search and has helped me immensly on the way.
until we speak again
kind regards
stacey
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Hello Stacey,
I think the person at the end of my dialogue on the Ralph/McGreal issue is a Niamh Flannagan . Might be worth name dropping if it helps.
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Hi pat,
just a little info for you my john joseph died in 1950s not sure exactly what year yet but will make a point of looking he died in liverpool and lived to be an old man....My aunt remembers being about 4/5 and not wanting to go see him as he was a horrible man!!! was he the drinker???
regards
stacey
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If he was the son of John Ralph of Bridge St, he would not have been impoverished and may have been used to the high life as a young man, relatively speaking without the personal means to support it. Push come to shove he may have rejected the tedious family trade of watchmaking and packed his bags.
As is the case act in haste repent in leisure, with the comfort of the bottle . In the end those around him suffer, a common theme for many Irish families.
There was a John Ralph from Ballina who was a tailor and a bit of a Lad who had a habit of falling over and waking up in Castlebar jail even into his late 60s.
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Name John J McGreal
Year of Registration 1952
Quarter of Registration Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District Liverpool North
Registration County Lancashire
Age at Death: 90
Volume Number 10D
Volume Page 399
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hi pat
its very interesting but i think you have it i have been looking on mundial if you search john mcgreal 1867 a family comes up but states father is john ralph mcgreal and mother bridget!! no surname for bridget but im in agreement that this is the right family although marriage dates differ!!i will be looking more into this tonight....
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Hello Stacey Ralph,
Therein lies the problem. Should the father be written as John Ralph on the certificate and mother Bridget McGreal. Is it written as John Ralph and Bridget with the researcher adding McGreal to his research material. We will have to wait.
Not sure what marriage details you refer to on Mundai , as all I can see is the very basics without date or place of marriage..
Would just mention that Niamh was under the impression that John Ralph 1867 had emigrated further afield than the UK and had returned in 1891 and 1893. I have found no evidence of such migration or a corresponding census entry for a John Ralph in the UK.
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hi pat...
well iv been looking at the ellis island passenger records and have come across a couple of things
Name: john ralph
Date of arrival: 25th december 1989
Age:30
Watchmaker
Nationality:irish westport
Ship: Etruria
Going to a j gibbon???
Writing i couldnt really understand!!!
next one.......
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Name: john Ralph
Date of Arrival: febuary 13 1918
Age:50
Departure port:liverpool
Ship: carmania
Employed on board vessel as Fireman....
Irish
......................
Name: john ralph
Date of arrival:march 29 1918
Departure port: liverpool
Age 50
Ship: cretic
employed on vessel as fireman
English
other dates of travel for john ralph
Liverpool-philadelphia 1893
queenstown - boston 1898
southhampton - new york
liverpool - newyork 1901
liverpool- boston 1904
i have also found a few new passenger records for john mcgreal states job as cattleman but aslo states us citizen.....
so i think this kinda confirms john mcgreal is using duel identity.......
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Hi Stacey,
I am aware of the record, he was visitng a cousin in New York, port of departure Liverpool. It is just narrowing down the period when this individual apparently emigrated to Australia to 1899-1901 and the lack of emigration and death records in Australia still raises questions.
He does not appear on the 1901 Irish census.
Once the marriage cert arrives a new look will be required.
The 1867 Johns father is understood to have died in 1891 born late 1825 and the informant was a John Ralph of Westport. Not having seen the death cert I have to accept what I have been informed. The problem is there is a second John Ralph born about 1830, originally born in Scotland which is not substantiated by certs as yet who also dies in Westport. Two deaths in Westport one civil death record, which is not uncommon. To complicate it further he also had a son John born in 1869.
If the 1891 death cert indicates the last occupation as watchmaker then the link is faltering on the rocks. So many questions around this family.Bridget the wife is given a birth date of 1826 as she died in 1893 by all accounts. Did she really have children at the age of 38 for Margaret and 41 for John !!
The John Ralph born 1844 appears to die in 1891 est dob given as 1840. Not sure if a generation gap been skipped!!
If you are going to pluck out shipping records you really should start looking at how many John Ralph there are in the US ,UK and then link them to the records you are plucking out of the air and try and find a link to Westport or Mayo. At the moment I am working with three definite John Ralph born in Mayo 1867-1869 two of whom are in Westport. You are drawing up records with no links which doesn't help.
Still no marriage cert??
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Stacey
I am related to the McGreals in Westport, there are a few McGreal, Families but ours came from Carnalurgan outside Westport.
This would be the Patriach
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=mc+greal&GSfn=patrick&GSmid=47069730&GRid=46095728&
One of the McGreals does marry a Ralph, these are connected to the Manulla Ralphs,
I am also a related to Niamh who was mentioned, she has extensive work done on the McGreals.
I haven't heard of any of the families emigrating to the UK, just Austrailia and the States.
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Hello Dympna,
I believe I have previously communicated with you on Find a Grave on some other matter, and thanks again for all your work.
I too am guilty of badgering Niamh, who I am aware has done a lot of research on here own Carrabawn and other Holy Greals.
Much of what I have put forward is speculation and until the marriage cert for the Liverpool marriage is examined nothing is certain. The Ralph question transpires from two trees on Mundia.com which have have an individual called John Ralph McGreal as the father of the John who has ended up in Liverpool. This John Ralph McGreal has me baffled and my concern is that the two researchers from Mundia have looked for a 1867 birth with a McGreal connection in Westport and simply lifted the info from Deesegenes for the birth of a John to a John Ralph and Bridget McGreal and interpreted it incorrectly.
When Stacey has the cert, as I have mentioned a fresh look will be needed.
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Padraig
The McGreal -Ralph connection is pretty intertwined.
One of the Ralphs emigrated to Austrailia when Fr John McGreal PP Mayo Abbey, prevented him from marrying his cousin, one of the McGreals from the Octogan, Westport.
Then hoping not to confuse you, my GGM is Bridget daughter of Dominick McGreal, Newforest married a John Lavelle, one of their sons Thomas married an Annie Ralph in New York (also his cousin and originating from Manulla)
This is the Lavelle/Ralph Grave in New York
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Lavelle&GSmid=47069730&GRid=88409795&
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Hello Dympna,
I am sure marrying a cousin was not an ideal situation. I am sure there were even more raised eyebrows with the McGreal/McGreal and McGrail/Mcgrail marriages I have come across.
I have now established the John Ralph birth in 1844 was in Achill and C of I, father possibly Thomas as not on baptismal records, and can be removed from the equation.
The Ralph watchmaking empire seems to be in place in Ballinrobe as well. A Thomas b abt 1830 described as a watchmaker seems active in handling others watches and jewellery rather than watchmaking.
A common American practice is to continue the mothers maiden name in her female line.I have come across two instances recently where this practice has also been used in the male line in Ireland.
With this in mind my thoughts a drifting towards the possibility that John Ralph McGreal may in fact be correct, his mother being a Ralph. Again speculation.
We will have now to wait on Stacey and what the marriage certificate reveals. Hopefully the occupation of his parents will be included and give us a little more to go on.
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hi pat,
recieved the cert today
22nd may 1889
john mcgrail age 27 mariner, father: james mcgrail, deseased, builder.
Mary catherine coughlin 18 years father john coughlin deseased, mariner
witnesses
Anthony prince
Elizabeth ann coughlin
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Hello Stacey,
From what you have the closest match from my records is a James McGreal of Bridge Street Westport, and Catherine Browne marriage 1860 Oughaval RC Parish (Westport), Co Mayo, with Johns birth dated at 1862.
Like John his son, his family was a large one.His children numbered around fifteen, the latest birth unconfirmed I have was for late 1884 which would put a date of death for James at between 1884 and 1889.
A number of Johns siblings are mentioned in the Irish census of 1901 and 1911, both Fair Green and Altamont Street. A sibling Timothy born about 23 Jan 1870 left for America around 1894 and raised a family in Philadelphia,Penn. Another brother Richard possibly joined the armed forces (Maidstone Kent) and ultimately ends up in West Derby of all places as a railway worker.
It is possible that there remain a number of later generations of James and Catherine around Westport, but allow me to put what you have to Niamh who has a better grip on of family lineages.
There are a number of online details with Ancestry and others on the Catherine Browne/James McGreal family which you should look at. I would hold fire on contacting anyone pending what Niamh might have to say.
The Mondia site tree with the Ralph reference has as I feared interpreted online information incorrectly to tidy up loose ends.
I am a bit busy with other things at present but will try and get a current email for Niamh so you can chat away with her if we have the right family.
Pat.
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hi pat,
thanks for that will wait to hear further about that. thought i would tell you iv made contact with the family of edith birch!! all very exiting...
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Hi Stacey,
I have heard nothing further from Niamh, and as she has no further details of a James McGreal we may have exhausted this line. Two other lines of inquiry , one which I received a reply to today suggests that their research is based on indexes rather than actual certs. Treating online trees with a bit of caution is the watchword.
A possible James McGreal engaged as a builder was married to a Bridget Acton in 1843 Oughaval C of I, Mayo. I am unable to identify any children to this marriage with the only McGreal Baptisms range from 1830-1849 none to a Bridget from my search.
Unfortunately for our purposes this James is very much alive as can be seen from the 1901 Census link (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Westport_Urban/Altamont_Street/1607473/)and the 1911 Census link (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Westport__Urban/Altamont_Street/749206/).
If we accept that James is deceased at the time of John's marriage a possible is the Civil Death link (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FTHH-J3J)for a James registered just months before the marriage.If you do order this certificate it should show occupation and possible informant.
Another Birth of John in 1857 baptised at Oughaval RC Parishis is worth considering. A marriage in 1850 to a James and Bridget (surname not listed) at Oughaval RC Parish may be the parents. The online IFHF Mayo site (https://rootsireland.ie/mayo/login.php)indicate John 1857 is born to a James and Bridget but you will have to purchase credits to view the details. This will not however tie into the death record for 1889 unless the age of the deceased is grossly incorrect.
The James Mcgreal and Catherine Brown family of Bridge St has thrown up a few more issues. In 1881 a directory of occupations was carried out for Westport , link Slaters Directory (http://www.igp-web.com/igparchives/ire/mayo/directories/1881westport.txt), which identies a John , James and Patrick McGreal of Bridge St carrying on the occupation of Butchers. If James the butcher is married to Catherine Brown clearly he is not our John's father who is a builder.
Another of the McGreal/Brown family is Timothy 1870 for which a Civil Birth link (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYYV-422) would confirm his fathers occupation and therefore establish if there is any connection to your John in Liverpool.
To complicate matters further, two separate researchers have varying outcomes for this McGreal family. The last birth I could identify was in the last quarter of 1883 for a Richard McGreal which coupled with the registration of a death of a Catherine McGreal,Civil Death link (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FTQ7-B46), may suggest she died in child birth or very nearby. Only speculation.
I might just add neither researcher seems to have all births on their trees.
The second researcher seems to have two members of the Mcgreal/Brown family with James having remarried to a Mary and a further seven children in tow.The IFHF will indicate the marriage of a James McGreal to a Mary Barrett in 1887 Westort CP to be this family. The conclusion here is again that this James is not related to your John in Liverpool by virtue of occupation and that he is very,very much alive.
The census 1901 link (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Westport_Urban/John_s_Row/1607906/)has the family away from Bridge ST and at Johns Row. James and Mary are deceased in 1907 and 1908 respectively and two of the younger members Rose Census link (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Westport__Urban/Cahernamart/749007/) and Winifred Census link (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Westport__Urban/Cahernamart/749006/) are separated from their family. Other members of the family are detailed at Find a Grave link (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=mcgreal&GSfn=james&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GScntry=35&GSob=n&GRid=34715077&df=all).
In summary there is a lot of conflicting information which may not be supported by actual certs and the like. I suggest you go with what you know and apply for a research copy of the 1889 death certificate for James from Roscommon GRO, Shane147 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599538.0.html) notes will help, and see if that ties up any loose ends.
PAT.
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Hi Stacey,
I have bee looking in on the postings,i also have been in contact with Niamh a couple of years back.I have collected any information i find on Mcgreal families.I see Padraig mentions the birth of John Mcgreal in 1857 this is the one i mentioned earlier,parents were James Mcgreal and Bridget Obrien,the record would not show the address only parish,region and denomination.
The death record of James Mcgreal in 1889 is as follows
James Mcgreal
High Street Westport
7th March 1889
age 40years
Married
Labourer
Informant
Bridget Mcgreal
High Street
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In the 1901 census there is a Bridget Mcgreal age 68 in High Street Westport,she is a shopkeeper/widow.The age of James in the record could be a problem given that in 1889 this Bridget would still have been 56.The age difference in the census years i have seen differ by 10-15 years.
James would need to be nearer the age of 56 to have been the father of the John born in 1857.
On the record you purchased did it have an address for John's father,also did it confirm Johns address as Co Mayo?
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Hi .Owenwee,
Your details from the death certiificate would concur with the marriage certificate and the fact the father was deceased at the the time of the marriage.
The birth of John in 1857 to James and Bridget O'Brien would therefore be the strongest candidate.
In addition there were three other siblings to the McGreal/O'Brien family Austin in 1851,Bridget in 1859 and Patrick in 1855. Patrick I believe may have emigrated to Us (Illinois,Chicago) in 1882.
Stacey is convinced her people were from Westport .
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hi,
thanks for the reply,
the marriage of john mcgrail and mary catherine coughlin happened in liverpool so it gives addresses as john: 4 galton street, liverpool and mary lived at 36 gibraltar row, liverpool.
no mention of ireland at all.
and as for being from westport well to be honest i cannot be 100% about that anymore otherwise im sure my james would of cropped up by now....i have nothing solid to back it up!! YET...
the marriage of john and mary took place at st marys church liverpool on 22/01/1889 john stated the age 27 so that would of made james 13 when he was a father!!!
so back to the searching i go.....
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Hi Stacey and Padraig,
It is difficult to obtain the exact date of birth on Irish records,James who died in 1889 age 40 this could be way out but there is no way to be sure.
The other births of James Mcgreal and Bridget Obriens children found by Padraig,i have the one for Bridget born 1859 it does not contain an address only Oughaval Parish parents names and sponsors.
I agree that the Butchers Mcgreals doesnt look likely to be the same family even though they had a John in 1862. The father James would be also a Butcher or similar,unlike your James a builder!
Good Luck in your research
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Hi Stacey,
From being something we could rely on, Johns age and DOB around 1867 from the shipping lists, has proved to be the least bit of information we could rely on.
The UK census returns for 1891 clearly states ''Ireland Westport' as his place of birth. This is supported again in 1911 though less clear with ''Mayo' as his place of birth.
The areas where the many McGreal families settled are well covered by parish records for the possible dates that we need to look at in Westport and fragmented elsewhere. Of those available for the period 1857-1867 only two John McGreal births are noted born to a James McGreal in Mayo, which have been covered. The only anomaly I am aware of are the Heaton Norris McGreal/McGrail family and though their James is deceased by 1891 John is single and living with his mother Marry.
The death certificate for a James in1889 ticks all the boxes but for the age and date of registration being after the date of the wedding. As Owenwee has explained dates are a nightmare with Irish records and literacy levels were not the best.
A correction to my last post the Patrick I had emigrating to Chicago,Illinois is not related to the James McGreal/O'Brien family.
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In conclusion on this item It would appear that the James of High St deceased in 1889 could be the son of Austin McGreal and Judith Scott baptised 1850 Oughaval Parish. The age at death would be consistent with the baptismal date.
The absence of any other death record for a James prior to the date of marriage would suggest a likely date of death being prior to 1875. The likelihood of any death record prior to the 1874 Registration Act is unlikely , the only record would be a headstone if it still existed.
It is unlikely John is connected to the town of Westport but would have associated with it like many other parts of Ireland being the major center of population to his actual location .
The McGreal/O'Brien family remains the only remaining family unit we can possibly make a link with given the possible age of John and his fathers name not only in the general area of Westport but also the remainder of Mayo.
It cannot be confirmed if any of the other siblings survived to the 1901 census or if they emigrated. The two other brothers Austin and Patrick draw blanks in the US and Uk. There is a possible marriage to a John McKeon 10 Nov 1889 her parents being a James and Bridget approx dob 1859 in the US. It may be impossible to attribute this Bridget to the family under consideration .
A family unit which appears in the 1901 census in Boleybrian,Knappagh (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Knappagh/Boleybrian/1606957/) a townland close to Westport is comparable in ages to the McGreal/O'Brien family without Bridget the daughter and the inclusion of Austin's wife.
From the Griffith Valuation extracts 1855, Boleybrian was a townland exclusively occupied by McGreal families. Two of these were a James and a James jnr possibly suggesting father and son having land holdings.
From the IFHF site possible marriages of a Austin,Bridget or Patrick with a father James upto 1900 turned up one possible in Annagh/Ballyhaunis for a Patrick who was born 1866 to a Francis/James McGreal and Catherine Kilduff. Austin clearly does marry from the 1901 census entry and this was to a Winifred Maly in 1895. The fathers entry appears to be a Tom from the transcribed record, however records on IFHF Mayo show the only Austin born in Mayo to a Thomas was in 1876 to a Thomas and Bridget O'Donnell. It may be the case that Austin grew up knowing his father as Tom to differentiate between Grandfather and Father which was common with identical names in families.
Austin and Patrick were born about four years apart. The 1901 census indicates a three year gap in ages. Of all the Austin McGreal born between 1850 and 1859,regardless of fathers christian name only two families contain a Patrick, The other is born to a Patrick and Catherine Conway and is seven years older than Austin, rather than four years younger with the McGreal/O'Brien family.
The IFHF Mayo site is a considerable help in research. If you choose to look into this family in Boleybrian I would suggest however you source copies of the actual records from GRO Roscommon as errors in transcribing do occur.