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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Colin D Gronow on Wednesday 19 September 12 15:55 BST (UK)
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Link ;)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00yhc1q
Hopefully more interesting than previous episodes :-X
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Not so sure, some of it deals with WWI again. I'm not saying that's not interesting, but this series of WDYTYA does seem to be dwelling on it rather a lot.
Lizzie
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Her story better not be as confusing as River Song's storylines on Doctor Who ;D
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"This morning I found my inner Jew, this afternoon I found my inner whore" ;D
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All I can find is a GG aunt in 1885 who was divorced for drunkeness and spending nights with a commercial traveller She asked that the charge of drunkness be struck off!
I quite envy Alex for having a well documented ancestress,
Spring
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Lots of original documents - she's very lucky. Didn't know that Westminster Abbey held inquest reports either (even if they are only limited ones)
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Definately a considerable improvement on last week, I really enjoyed this episode.
Is it me or has it been good episode, bad episode, good episode, bad episode, good episode so far, wonder if next weeks episode will be bad .... Hope not :-[
The war part of this episode was interesting.. it was good to see what information could be found without having a service record and makes me hopeful that maybe I'll have some luck tracing my gg grandfathers records eventually.
Michelle
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Interesting episode. Goodness, didn't Alex come alive in the second half with each new revelation!
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I thought tonight's show was definitely the best this series, even the WW1 section was more interesting than some of the others.
My 3xGt Grandparents ran a lodging house in a street full of lodging houses....think I might have to look at it in a new light!! :o
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Definately a considerable improvement on last week, I really enjoyed this episode.
Is it me or has it been good episode, bad episode, good episode, bad episode, good episode so far, wonder if next weeks episode will be bad .... Hope not :-[
The war part of this episode was interesting.. it was good to see what information could be found without having a service record and makes me hopeful that maybe I'll have some luck tracing my gg grandfathers records eventually.
Michelle
Indeed I really enjoyed that episode and found Alex funny and engaging
Although his war record no longer exists, through using internet genealogy websites, I was lucky enough to be sent an extract of a WWI war diary for my great uncle's regiment on the day he died, he wasn't named, but it all pointed to him being one of the 12 people who died from his regiment that day. So there is information out there even if many of the service records no longer exist
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i really enjoyed the episode, i found myself concentrating properly on this one and even put the laptop down something i havent done all series so it must have been good. i love discovering strong women like elizabeth, it reminds me of when my dad paid of his mortgage and got all his doccs from the bank to do with his house, in there was a will of a woman who owned the house 100 yrs ago and she owned several houses in the village and left them to female relations only. very intresting.
tracey
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Well the first half was boring as I am getting sick of WW1 stories yet again.
But it certainlt picked up in the second part - so became interesting. ::)
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I just loved this one. She came across so thrilled with everything she found. I was so happy that she was proud of her "Madam" ancestor. I would be absolutely thrilled to finally prove that my 3rd gt. gran was in the trade. Sadly it only seem likely.
Also, my grandfather was in the 3rd Londons. I didn't catch the regimental number but my grandads was 550040. Does anyone remember her grandads number? I think it started 550 but I didn't catch the rest.
Paul
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Also, my grandfather was in the 3rd Londons. I didn't catch the regimental number but my grandads was 550040. Does anyone remember her grandads number? I think it started 550 but I didn't catch the rest.
Paul
550483
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I liked this one too, even the WW1 bit - good to know so much can be discovered even without the army service record. The research work on these ancestors was really thorough, I thought, so much information found. It was funny to see Alex's reaction to what she discovered about Ms Braham - what an eye opener :o and what a canny lady too.
I wonder how many of us will be scrutinizing those Census returns for some of our female 'Head of the Household' ancestors with fresh eyes ::). I have one or two groups of female 'Needlewomen' living together in the mid 19th Century - what d'ya think? ::) ;D. Great episode!
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I enjoyed this one, she seemed to enjoy what was found. More realistic for me as i was fed up of them finding www1 records when my main ones, i only had medal index cards for. I will eventuslly get round to sending for the war diaries but it they won't answer what i need to know unfortunately.
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I enjoyed this episode as well but was shouting at the TV when they assumed the grandaughter must be the daughter of Lewis as she had the same surname. If she had been an illigitimate daughter of one of his sisters then she still would have the same surname as everyone else. Without displaying a birth certificate to prove this it was another leap of faith that as professional researchers they should not be demonstrating on TV to individuals with no experience. How many others will now jump to this conclusion I wonder? Leading to a load of bogus information being added to family trees on well know internet websites without sources to back the information up (rant over) ;D
panda
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Really enjoyed the episode - before it started I was thinking it was going to be yet another WWI or a Holocaust focused episode.
It was funny and interesting and I loved Alex Kingstons enjoyment of what was being found.
Agree with Panda re the assumption of the granddaughter by surname - would have been good to see some proof of that but otherwise a thoroughly entertaining WDYTYA! (must have closer look at 2xGGrans lodging house entries!)
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Interesting though that in addition to the 1861 entry shown, there is another Elizabeth Braham of a similar age, also in Marylebone (where the one with Rosa now was) who is also a Lodging House Keeper, in a street with many female "proprietor of houses". Coincidence or entered twice?
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I wonder how many of us will be scrutinizing those Census returns for some of our female 'Head of the Household' ancestors with fresh eyes ::). I have one or two groups of female 'Needlewomen' living together in the mid 19th Century - what d'ya think? ::) ;D. Great episode!
Well, I noticed at least one 'Dressmaker' on the census form where Alex's ancestor lived ;)
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About to watch on iPlayer .....
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Got to watch on iplayer. I usually watch WDYTYA and record Grand Designs, Sky+ set up for this, but last night OH decided he wanted to watch Grand Designs and I forgot to reset the Sky+, so we not only watched GD, we also recorded it, but didn't record WDYTYA. Am I getting old? ::) ::)
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Really enjoyed this one - even the WW1 aspect despite my moans from last week ;)
My unanswered questions from this episode were - did Rosa continue her grandmother's profession, and how did Eve manage to marry into a prominent Orthodox Jewish family?
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Dont you have playback Lizzie.
I havent found this series as exciting or as interesting as other series.
I too, have found the World War parts a little boring as there were only
so many battles in France.
I liked the Annie Lennox one as it went backwards quite along way.
Liked the boarding house espisode of Alex. At least Elizabeth didnt
starve to death or go in the Poorhouse and die from disease. I dont
blame her for her life. No one knows nowadays what it was like and why
these women had to make such a decision to survive. It even confirmed
that if they had any money and remarried they lost all of it to the husband.
Not on your nelly I say.
My question would be what happened to all of those houses, they must
be worth millions nowadays.
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I enjoyed this episode as well but was shouting at the TV when they assumed the grandaughter must be the daughter of Lewis as she had the same surname. If she had been an illigitimate daughter of one of his sisters then she still would have the same surname as everyone else. Without displaying a birth certificate to prove this it was another leap of faith that as professional researchers they should not be demonstrating on TV to individuals with no experience. How many others will now jump to this conclusion I wonder? Leading to a load of bogus information being added to family trees on well know internet websites without sources to back the information up (rant over) ;D
panda
When she was leaving her jewellery to her grand-daughter in the will, there was a section of the will that started to read 'daughter of.....' but the camera didn't move along to show the next bit. Maybe that was the proof but we weren't shown it.
I found it strange that only the son and the grand-daughter were mentioned in the will, no mention of her daughters.
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I also shouted at the TV at the assumption regarding Rosa's parentage! They never bothered to find out anything about Rosa's mother - in my family it was always the mother's mother who took in the illegitimate children. (happened frequently ;)) Even more likely to be one of the daughters' children if they were 'working' in their mother's house of ill-repute. :o
I'm afraid I found this episode a bit long-drawn-out, with Alex reading everything out v-e-r-y slowly when she quite obviously was reading from the typed transcript which could be seen next to the original.
The information was interesting but I felt it could have been done in half an hour and they could have actually got more in. I'm sure in earlier series they covered more ground in each episode.
Still I fell asleep 10 minutes before the end, maybe it livened up then ;D but OH did fill me in what I missed.
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Really enjoyed this one - even the WW1 aspect despite my moans from last week ;)
My unanswered questions from this episode were - did Rosa continue her grandmother's profession, and how did Eve manage to marry into a prominent Orthodox Jewish family?
To answer my own question - Rosa married Alfred Good in 1877. In 1881, they are living at 28 Barrow Hill Road - was that one of Grandma's houses?
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I thought this was a fantastic episode, one of the best ever! There was some really good research involved, and it wasn't presented in a too heavy handed way as can sometimes be the case.
I also wondered how Eva had managed to marry into a prominent orthodox jewish family given her family background, which surely must have been well know in the locality.
And Alex was fabulous!
Off to do a bit of research of my own now hopefully to fill in some of the gaps!
Anne
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Can anyone remember the names of Elizabeth's children? I think they were Lewis, Eva (who marries ?Laurence Emmanuel), Sophia (who marries Alfred Morey) and .................?
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by 1881, Sophia has been widowed and is livin at 58 Cochrane St with Eve and Lawrance
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Sometimes, the census makes things very clear. Here's a detail from 1861 in Manchester (RG9/2948 FOL89 P33).
I wonder how the enumerator knew what the trade was?
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Can anyone remember the names of Elizabeth's children? I think they were Lewis, Eva (who marries ?Laurence Emmanuel), Sophia (who marries Alfred Morey) and .................?
Just checked on iplayer - Frances was the other child bn c. 1816.
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1891 Sophia is living with her nephew Joseph Emmanuel, at 63 Marylebone Lane , there's a Sophia Morey death in 1898 Fulham RD , born 1817
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"I found it strange that only the son and the grand-daughter were mentioned in the will, no mention of her daughters." (Silvery)
I wondered about that too. Her three daughters would have been just as economically disadvantaged, by virtue of being female, as her grand-daughter. This was a fascinating episode and they cannot cover every loose end, I know, but there were rather a few too many facts uncovered which were left hanging in mid air, so to speak. Methinks the programme would have to be extended to two hours to truly do justice to all the info gathered and satisfy us all here!
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Did we see the whole Will?
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Did we see the whole Will?
No we didn't
I think too many people are jumping to conclusions here which is ironic as on the other hand people accuse the programme of jumping to conclusions ???
I think the programme is far more researched than we sometimes give credit for. alas it is sometimes sloppily put together which gives rise to all sorts of needless speculation.
Anyway, that said I enjoyed the programme especially learning about the photographing of the sound waves in WWI - we weren't taught that at school ! and Alex's wonderful reaction to finding out about the bawdier side of her family history ;)
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I also enjoyed last night's episode very much. If it had been someone less confident, I doubt whether they would have allowed all that about running a brothel, but good on her - it was either that or a life in the Poor House.
I lost track of which child Alex descended from in the end but I have recorded it so can look at it again.
In those days not much was hidden from the children, so it is any wonder that her son Lewis acted a little weird.
I wonder what the family made of it all when Alex told them.
Dora
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I thogoughly enjoyed this episode and the bit about WW1 was fascinating, something I had never heard of before.
Loved the comment of in the morning finding her inner jew and in the afternoon her inner whore.
This was one of my favourites so far.
As for the will I did notice a little faarther down the name Susan mentioned and another which I did not quite catch. Wish they had told us more,
As said before we know that a lot of this is thoroughly researched before, how else would they had all the various certificates to hand and all the old documents, they do take time to dig out.
It is just a shame that they do not say so. Us who have been at this game for some time know exactly just how long some information can take to find.
Overall this eposide was good for me and I found Alex great and although she did well up at one point she did not start blubbing which is quite common. A real trooper..
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WW1 yet again, yawn, at least I didn't fall asleep this week! I think it's because I'm jealous as Grandad's records were destroyed.
One of "mine" is listed as a lodging -house-keeper!! Must dig deeper!!!
rosie.
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I found it interesting about the WWI sound waves but then spent the second half saying no wonder she played 'Moll Flanders' so good! :o
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Dont you have playback Lizzie.
What is playback? We have Sky+ and set programmes to record with series links, so Grand Design is recorded (and watched live last night ::) ) but WDYTYA isn't set to record.
Lizzie
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I thoroughly enjoyed this one. The WW1 details were different to previous programmes, and show that its not impossible to find out stuff even though some records were destroyed in WW2. The sound wave thing was new to me.
Loved her comment about the 'inner Jew and the inner whore' !!
This is one programme where I would have LOVED to see the reaction of her family when she told them all she had found out !
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I really enjoyed this programme. yes it was WW1 again, BUT that event impacted on nearly every one of us and cannot be ignored in family history. The information we were given also demonstrated the absence of the official record is not necessarily a hurdle to finding out more. I have often yelled at the TV when they actually HAVE the record when we all know so many records were lost! I found the information about the sound recording fascinating.
The second part was hilarious. How to succeed at the oldest profession - Elizabeth did OK out of it as her will displayed and she was obviously very savvy about the impact of matrimony on a women's property.
I too would have loved to see her family's reaction to the information.
May be the additional footage will help to plug some of the gaps other RC posters have identified too.
Now, must go and look at my widowed ancestors again to see if any of them were lodging house keepers or dressmakers.......!!
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In OH's family of Ag Labs a great-aunt owned a big house with lots of nice furniture etc. (according to elderly relative who used to be taken there as a boy) I think the rest of the family rather looked up to her - my M-I-L was named after her. Everybody told me she had married into money.
In censuses she was a dressmaker ;) then was in service in London, then owned the 'big house' in Norwich where she was living on her own means :o, then she married a much younger man who had been one of her lodgers ;) so she owned the big house before she married him. :o
Although I knew 'dressmaker' could be a euphemism, I hadn't put two and two together - but now I'm beginning to wonder..... ;D
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One of mine . a lodging house keeper, with two daughters-dressmakers and five other females-dressmakers, either a busy house or a bawdy house ;D. Must investigate further now......
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How disappointing if they DO turn out to be dressmakers ...;) :) Actually I suppose doing actual dressmaking but having to turn to the oldest profession as well may have gone hand in hand.
I noted that Elizabeth Braham wasn't an actual Madam. She didn't run a brothel but rented out rooms to prostitutes.
It may be it was her son Lewis or Louis who crossed the line trying to run matters. The court case evidence sounded very odd, especially as a wife was also involved. Maybe a business arrangement gone wrong presented as something else?
As Alex hinted with her final newspaper reference, it seems quite a nexus or perhaps a profitable circle - the courts, lawyers and judges got fines, the "lodging houses" with the ladies' clientele continued, it made juicy tidbits for the printers and newspapers and ad infinitum ...
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A very interesting episode
Make you wonder what's lurking in my tree unnoticed
Bob
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The British Newspaper Archive have published two more newspaper articles about Alex Kingstons ancestor
They are free to view on their blog
http://blog.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
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Those clippings made interesting reading !
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Yes, the second clipping was especially interesting! My hunch about something fishy about the wife in the court case with Lewis/Louis may be borne out by this.
It may even be a pimp and madam situation and it may be the BRAHAM women were afraid of the women whom Lewis "introduced" and of losing the property to another gang or maybe something even more surprising!
It also looks like the three daughters may have married Emmanuel cousins?
It was interesting how in the programme the King's name was invoked as regards the conviction for running a bawdy house. While I understand it is the King's court and the King's justice, it did make me wonder how involved the royals and the court were in all this ... Or is it taking it all too far?
There was also a well-known opera singer by the name of BRAHAM with a fascinating story and I do wonder whether there is a connection although BRAHAM/ABRAHAM must have been a common name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Braham
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Hi,
Background to the Court of King's Bench:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_King%27s_Bench_%28England%29
Nanny Jan
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Do I read that right, that Mrs Braham's son contested her will ..... probably because he didn't get anything ?
I think the BBC ought to make another whole programme !!
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From the background to the King's Bench, it sounds as if the courts themselves were an unregulated free-for-all (but not free in terms of cost!) which needed the cash from fines & drawn out litigation & publicity in the newspapers, so it may have been rather, for want of a better word, an incestuous relationship with the families who were allowed to continue to run prostitution rings & brought to court for other matters. it also sounds as if the King's Bench was on its last legs when all this happened & didn't survive much longer.
I did wonder though if Alex's reference to Lewis/Louis Braham as a 'party boy' could have been a hint that there was something going on as regards party politics and therefore something bigger?
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I did wonder though if Alex's reference to Lewis/Louis Braham as a 'party boy' could have been a hint that there was something going on as regards party politics and therefore something bigger?
Oh, I thought she meant he was a bit of a man about town, maybe even bringing "ladies" to his mother's lodging house. ;D
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Me too!
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If not already posted - more footage at
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/footage/13826
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I loved this episode - seeing it dawn on her what her ancestor actually did in this lodging house was really funny - she was so innocent in her thoughts at first then her face changed and you could see the penny drop! ;D
A much better episode!
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Oh, I thought she meant he was a bit of a man about town, maybe even bringing "ladies" to his mother's lodging house.
I hope he paid for the room ;)
I loved this episode - seeing it dawn on her what her ancestor actually did in this lodging house was really funny - she was so innocent in her thoughts at first then her face changed and you could see the penny drop!
As her face changed on screen I was saying to my husband "OH no it can't be" .....and it was ;D
Brilliant episode like a previous poster - I wondered how the daughter managed to marry into a respectable jewish family ...........might do a bit more looking later.
N
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Possibly the most enjoyable episode of the series so far. What a wonderful variety of sources presented. The little-known science of sound-ranging during WWI made that bit very interesting.
WH Keevil was called a photographer in the war diary bit - did you not wonder if he took any of the photographs that they were looking at?
Did I hear right that they went from the 1891 census straight to 1911. What was William Keevil's occupation/circumstances on the 1901 census?
The language in all those newspapers and court hearings about the bawdy goings-on was fabulous, not to mention "had connection".
What a star Alex is and so candid about her vulnerability.
Gerry
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I looked up the 1901 census, where William H Keevil's occupation is a Camera Finisher. I wonder why they skipped that then?
Gerry
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One of more irritating aspects of the format is that they never do the sensible think and having found someone look at them in all censuses.
Their priroty is to tell a narrative story
Watching the programme - we often see things for not quite long enough to read - like thewill last week
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I looked up the 1901 census, where William H Keevil's occupation is a Camera Finisher. I wonder why they skipped that then?
Gerry
Probably because it didn't add anything to the story! Time constraints mean that they don't show lots of things, although I'm sure they look them all up!
Watching the programme - we often see things for not quite long enough to read - like thewill last week
Record the programs or watch on iPlayer. Then you can pause whenever you like :)
Linda
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I'm afraid I found this episode a bit long-drawn-out, with Alex reading everything out v-e-r-y slowly when she quite obviously was reading from the typed transcript which could be seen next to the original.
After reading this thread I watched my recording of the show and I believe that Alex was reading slowly because she was actually reading the written words and not the typed transcript.
I did notice she used a book in which she wrote down notes and dates presumably so she could show her daughter when she got back to the US.
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Good episode.
Reminded me of the Armstrong and Miller sketch where a census occupation was given as "whore" ;D
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Someone should write a screenplay with Alex playing her ancestor the boarding house keeper :)
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Conjecture is a lovely hobby isn't it ::)
Reading between the lines, whilst watching, I came to the conclusion that ....
Sorry but there is a bit too much conjecture and speculative guessing on this topic.
I have removed some of the replies.
Please stick to your views on the program.
Thanks,
Bob