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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Derbyshire => England => Derbyshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MattH on Thursday 13 September 12 21:54 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am researching Joshua Oldfield who was born around 1813 in, as the 1851 census states, Brampton. I am trying to find a finite date of birth as well as confirm the identity of his parents being Thomas Oldfield and Mary Hopkinson. Joshua was also living in Nottingham at the time of the 1841 census, but I can't seem to locate him after 1851. I believe he may have died sometime in between that ten-year period. However, in the 1861 census, his wife, Jane, is still listed as being a married person, meaning he may be elsewhere. Suffice it to say, I figure to start out with looking for Joshua's birth record before I move on to other mysteries. Thank you!
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Hello Matt........forgive me if I doubt your information............
THOMAS OLDFIELD married MARY HOPKINSON at All Saints Derby 30.09.1790..........they did not have a son Joshua...1790 is a bit early think you not?
JOSHUA Oldfield was not born at Brampton Chesterfield..at least not in the Anglican Church ( I have the Brampton Pr's among many others.)
Having looked at many other Sources there is only one JOSHUA OLDFIELD that fits...........born 17.03.1811 baptised Brassington 14.04.1811..son of THOMAS OLDFIELD and ELIZABETH. nee SLATER who married near Ashbourne 24.10.1810
Ann Oldfield bapt 16.12.1813 and Mary Oldfield bapt.16.07.1813..were siblings of the above Joshua......
..now if he were Non-conformist or Catholic..then all bets are off!
Derek.
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Thanks, Derek, for the wonderful information. I will say that, following my post, I was able to find Joshua Oldfield in the 1871 census. Apparently, while his family was living Snenton in Nottingham, Joshua was living in Arnold in Nottingham. He was a boarder there and working as a botanist. Not sure about what that means....he was a silk glove hand in 1841, and a Silk Framework Knitter in 1851 and 1861. (I haven't found him in 1861, but his wife, Jane, is listed as being a "wife of a FWK," which I took as being a Frame Work Knitter.)
I will say that the 1871 census has Joshua being born in Chesterfield, but I'm not sure if there is a major difference between that and Brampton, geographically speaking.
The children of Thomas Oldfield and Mary Hopkinson were all baptized into the Methodist Church; or, at least that's what it tells me on sites such as FamilySearch. It says "Methodist, Chesterfield, Derby, England." However, if this proves to be an incorrect connection then who knows to which sect he might have belonged!
Maybe this information might be able to help out a bit more. Thanks again!
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I have an oddity for you...........as you say the 1851 gives Brampton (Chesterfield) as a birthplace)..married to Janie...........he is a silk framework knitter..........
My GGGGrandfather had the same occupation..a lowly paid job..poverty really..working from a hovel of a cottage that was his home......this was about the same time as Joshua was doin the same thing ..only a few miles away!
In 1871 (Census) we have a JOSHUA OLDFIELD aged 53 born Chesterfield.... married........a Boarder in Arnold Nottingham......working as a Botanist!!!!!!..which to me is a professinal and highly trained job..
Since you have Janie in 1871 married..but no husband around.........is he in Arnold???????????
Derek.
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messages crossed!!!!............and you've answered your own question..they were Methodists..as i suggested!!
Derek
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Not to add to the fire here, but I may have found Joshua Oldfield in the 1861 census. It's a bit of a stretch, but it works. I found a Joshua Hadfield who was born in 1813 in Brampton who was working as a framework knitter in Mansfield, Nottingham. Except now he was working in cotton and not silk.
Knowing what little I do about the profession, it almost certainly went out as the Industrial Revolution came to pass. Many humans were replaced by machines, thus making many people unemployed. (I think that was featured in a "Who Do You Think You Are?" episode....Len Goodman's, perhaps?) This might explain the shift in occupations; however, I'll agree that a botanist is a highly-skilled and academically-based profession. Perhaps the definition of a botanist was different than what we know of as today. Oddly enough, his fellow boarders were framework knitters....And, yes, Arnold is his location in 1871.
What can be done now that I may know that he was baptised as a Methodist?
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I'm still cautious about a couple married in Derby in 1790...are still having children 23 years later in Chesterfield...Methodist or not...........mind you there was no telly.....!!
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I'll agree with you there that it seems a bit late to be having children after 23 years of marriage. I guess I'll wait and see what others might have to offer as suggestions.
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I read years ago about the workers strikes and the unhappy industrial times of Nottingham Lace and Glove makers, its worth a Amazon search to find the book or book to discover what their lot was. Nottingham was quite a pioneering centre in work grievances and strikes. It links with Stoke on Trent in this respect. I loved Nottingham, it was a city above all others and ranked with Edinburgh, Norwich and York. Alas it's no more for reasons better left unsaid. Arnold and Mansfield are past their sell by date for the same reasons. The biography of Jesse Boot, of Boots chemist fame adds more to the knowledge pot.
As for children as we all know families of 5-6-7-8-9-10 children were common, and I had brothers and sister 15 - 20 years older than myself.
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I'm not entirely disregarding the fact that Joshua wasn't born 23 years following the marriage of Thomas Oldfield and Mary Hopkinson. It just seems a bit unlikely. I, too, have had experiences in my searches with other people that has produced children up to around 20 years past the marriage date. However, I have found that when the first child is married (typically around 18-25 years) then the parents end their childbearing efforts. There are possible exceptions to this, depending on the needs of the family (i.e. more hands needed on the farm).
I may have a peek into those resources you mentioned. Do you, perhaps, know if the silk/cotton framework knitters during that time period were apprenticed? I think if Joshua was apprenticed, the paperwork regarding that might yield at least the father's name. That's assuming that the paperwork is still in existence. (Again, despite the different occupations, I'm referencing the Len Goodman episode of "Who Do You Think You Are?") Are there any resources out there that might give me a good idea about that profession?
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Hi MattH
As you perhaps already know Joshua Oldfield married Jane Bull at St Mary, Notts on 19.8. 1836. Have you seen the original marriage entry ? There may be clues with the witnesses.
Carol
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Carol,
I have not seen the original marriage document. I was able to deduce that Joshua Oldfield was married to Jane Bull from death certificates in the US. In fact, Jane died in the US in 1897. I actually was unsure about the marriage date and place, to be honest. How were you able to find out that information?
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Hi
I have a lot of stuff relating to Nottinghamshire including Baptisms, Marriages & Burials. I do visit Notts Records office every few months so can look at the original entry for you the next time I go.
Carol
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Thanks, Carol. I look forward to seeing what you find.
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Hi
Marriage details;
Joseph Oldfield and Jane Bull St Marys Nottingham 19 Aug 1836, witnesses John Adcock and Ann Oldfield.
Nottsgirl1
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Thanks for supplying the list of witnesses here. I don't seem to recognise the surname Adcock from my memory. And, Ann Oldfield is interesting because it could be an un-married sister or a sister-in-law. I don't believe it would have been his mother, if I'm still under the assumption that her name was Mary.
If I had to guess, Ann would be his sister. According to the records I have, Joshua would have had a sister named Ann. She was married to a James Frost on 30 December 1839 at St. Mary's in Nottinghamshire. I'm still scratching my head over Mr. Adcock, however...will need to do more investigating!
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Hi Matt,
I would think that Ann is his sister as often siblings are ususally witnesses, as for John Adcock he could be a friend or maybe the church warden as they were often witnesses. Next time I'm in the archives I'll have a look for him.
All the best
Nottsgirl1
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Thanks for the offer, Nottsgirl1, but I'm not sure as if looking for John Adcock would be a good use of your time. I did some minor research with the census records and it doesn't look like he's related to the Oldfield family at all.
I think I'm beginning to accept the fact that Joshua Oldfield was the son of Thomas Oldfield and Mary Hopkinson. While it seems a bit of a stretch that the couple would have a child after 23 years of marriage, it's not entirely out of the question. In the past weeks, I've noticed that some couples did have children beyond 20 years, although it's a bit rare.
The marriage record I've seen for Thomas and Mary is from the book "Derbyshire Parish Registers." The volume (#9) focuses on marriages from All Saints'. It provides a basic summary of the marriage. The entry for this marriage is:
30 Sep. 1790
Thos. Oldfield, of Chesterfield, painter, & Mary Hopkinson, lic.
I'm unaware of what "lic." stands for, but it appears that Thomas was from Chesterfield. Is there anyway to find a birth record for him in the baptismal registers? A guess for his birthdate would be somewhere around 1765-1773. The fact he had children after 20 years of marriage almost suggests that it was closer to 1772/1773.
I know that these locations are in Derbyshire but is anyone able to do a little digging for maybe the births of Thomas and Mary? And, since it lists Thomas as a painter, would that mean he would have been apprenticed?
I look forward hearing from you soon!
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Hi Matt
lic means that they married by Licence. Derbyshire marriage licences are kept at Lichfield Records Office. It is well worth having a copy as they can give loads of information.
I have some Chesterfield baptisms from 1760 - 1801 so I will have a look for Thomas later and get back to you.
Carol
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Hi Matt
This could be him
Thomas Oldfield son of Robert bapt 23 May 1768
I search up to 1778 but no other children bapt to Robert.
A few others that may be the same family
William Oldfield son of Edward (of Newbold bapt 26 Jan 1777
Ann Oldfield son of George bapt 19 March 1775
Hannah Oldfield da of George 31 May 1773
All took place at Chesterfield St Marys and All Saints.
Carol
I'll check the marriages
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Hi
Also found this marriage
Chesterfield St Marys & All Saints
Robert Oldfield m Ann Lomas 10 October 1767 by licence
Carol
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Hi Matt,
Sorry cannot help with looking at Derbyshire records.
I have had a look at the marriage of Joshua's sister that you mentioned and it has her father as Thomas Oldfield a FWK witnesses were a George ???( sorry couldn't make out the surname) and Susannah Bailey.
Nottsgirl1
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Carol,
Thank you so much for the information! One question for you that I have: when it says on the marriage entry that Thomas Oldfield was from Chesterfield, does that typically mean that it was his place of birth or just where he was living at the time of the marriage? I'll probably have to get a copy of the license to figure that one out, but, any ideas you may have would be helpful. Do you have the contact information for the office?
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Nottsgirl1,
Thank you as well for taking the time to look up that marriage record. I may need your help with Nottinghamshire records in a bit as I have another family I'm curious about.
Thanks again, both you of!
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Hi Matt
No it doesn't necessarily mean he was born there but he was of that parish when he married.
There is an order form online at the Lichfield RO where you can order marriage licences. It looks like it is just as cheap to order 2 than it is to just have 1
http://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/contact/LichfieldRecordOffice/LichfieldResearchService/home.aspx
Carol