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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: melmaree on Tuesday 11 September 12 12:37 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to find a death/burial record of Charles Mahomed Deen, probably around the 1950/60's possibly in NSW. His wife Charlotte died in 1961 in Penrith, on her death cert it states her as a widow and in her funeral notice in the paper it states she is the beloved wife of the late Charles Deen.
So he must have died prior to 1961 but I can't find any record on NSW BDM or QLD BDM which is where they started there married life.
I have found on 1958 electoral roles a Charles Deen living in Markham Ave in Penrith (there is also another Charles Deen in Cox St which I believe is his son) and listed as a mechanic but as Charles was born that would make him about 80 and still working??? Am not sure if this is him though. If it is him it would put his death somewhere between 1958 and 1961.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Mel.
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Hi Mel,
There is a death of a Charles Mahoummard DEEN in 1975 in NSW BDM with mother Charetle
I think this corresponds to death in Ryerson Index http://ryersonindex.net/search.php of a Charles Deen who died 24 Jan 1975 in Penrith aged 64
I realise this is later than you thought ... hang on and I will see if I can see death notice
regards,
Ros
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Perhaps he died earlier in 1961...
A possibility...?mistranscribed surname. Do you have his parents' names?
3694/1961
DEAN Charles
Father Samuel Mother Emma
District Penrith
Cando
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This is probably the son who died in 1975 then
It appears that he died suddenly at work.
DEEN Charles - Jan 24 1975 of 120 Cox Ave Penrith, dearly loved husband of Patricia . ...
It mentions children and spouses which I can pm you if think it is relevant
regards,
Ros
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If the correct name is DEEN and not DEAN then a quick search of the death indexes shows a few who died between 1950 and 1962. They are all of Arab/Middle eastern decent.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/IndexSearch?form=IndexingSearch&cgiurl=%2Fcgi-bin%2FIndex%2FIndexingBirth.cgi&sname=deen&gname=&fname=&mname=&event=deaths&frange=1950&trange=1962&place=&SessionID=36030098&x=22&y=11
Sorry about the long URl but it will open the correct file.
Neil
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Hi
On this site there is Probate for a
Ammon (Charles) Ammondeen (Deen) date of death 27/11/1959
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/
Muss
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Hi
Here is the death
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/IndexSearch?form=IndexingSearch&SessionID=36034393&sname=ammondean&gname=&fname=&mname=&event=deaths&frange=1959&trange=1959&place=
Muss
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Hi all
thank you all so much for all your help.
Yes I think the death in 1975 is his son, Charles.
His parents were Herbert and Fuzlenor
The death for Charles Ammondean sounds very very promising, I think I will order the death cert just to confirm.
Thank you so much I have searched and searched for a very long time to try and find him, I know I could count on the kind people of rootschat to help.
I will pop back in once I get a copy to let you know.
Thanks
Mel.
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Hi
I might be off the track there is a marriage QLD
Charles Mahomed Deen and Charlotte Agnes Brown
Marriage Date: 2 Nov 1908
Marriage Place: Queensland
1908 Registration Number:002969
Do you think this could be your Charles
Cass
ps there is a private Tree on Ancestry which includes
Charles Mahomed Deen Born: 1876 in Rawalpindi, Punjaub, India and
Charlotte Agnes Brown Born: 1882 in Tingha, (near Inverell) NSW
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From SMH Dec 19 1959
In the will of AMMON DEEN (commonly known as Charles Ammondeen) late of Lower Creek, Macleay River in the state of New South Wales, grazier, deceased. .... Probate of the will dated 25th oct 1956 may be granted to Ada West, the sole executrix ...
regards,
Ros
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I can't see a Charles Deen living with Charlotte Agnes Deen on electoral rolls after she moved to NSW. Could he have died much earlier in Qld?
I still can't see a Charles Deen on Qld BDM but there is (possibily mistranscribed)
DEAN Charles 1933 /c3863 born Lahore India aged 65
regards,
Ros
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Just a thought but have you checked to see if they are buried in the same grave?
Jenn
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Hi
there is another Rootschatter searching the same family
Mdotdeen
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,413680.msg2802184.html#msg2802184
Cass
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Just a thought but have you checked to see if they are buried in the same grave?
Jenn
Charlotte Agnes Deen is at Worona Crematorium http://www.woronoracemetery.org.au/name-search.html. I cannot see a possible Charles Deen there.
death notice for Charlotte Deen on Ryerson Index http://ryersonindex.net/search.php She died 1 Oct 1961
regards,
Ros
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Hi
mfcnt, mdotdeen is actually my brother, and the ancestry tree is our family tree so unfortunately we both know the same info :)
Yes Charles married Charlotte in 1908, his birth cert states he was born in Punjaub India prob around 1878 as on his marriage cert which I have a copy he was 30 when he married Charlotte in 1908. They married in 1908 and I think 4 of their children born in earlier years were registered all at the same time.
Rosball, I've just had a closer look at all the electoral rolls and I can't seem to find any where they were actually living in the same house!! A bit odd, I can find Charlotte in electoral rolls for 8 years, in both QLD up until 1937 and NSW from the 1949 roll. I can only find Charles Mahomed in 1925 in Inglewood QLD .
Very strange, maybe they separated early on.
My Dad says him and his mum went down to NSW to visit them in the early 1950s and he seems to remember that Charles was possibly still alive then.
I have ordered a copy of the death cert of the person muss suggested through a transcription agent so should hopefully get it in the next few days. Fingers crossed it will knock down my brick wall!!!
Mel
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Mel
I would have thought that he was probably not eligible to vote as he was a foreigner, unless he became a naturalised australian
The Charles Mohammed Deen on the electoral rolls may have been his son
Jenn
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Jenn,
I was wondering that as well. If he wasnt born in Aust would he still have been eligible to vote?? Maybe that is why I can't find him in some years?
His son was Charles Futtah Deen, so that wouldn't have been him. Maybe he enrolled for 1925 but then again I can't find him after then under Charles Mahomed either.
A bit of a mystery.
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Here is a photo of Charlie Ammondeen (Indian Hawker) c1914 outside Comara store NSW
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au//item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemID=392494
regards,
Ros
adding : Comara is not far from Kempsey
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Thanks Rosball
I was googling this arvo and did come across this, very exciting if it is him, hopefully the death cert I've ordered should prove it or not.
Will let you all know.
Cheers
Mel.
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From Sands directories
C Ammondeen 1919 Lower Creek
C Ammondeen 1920 Lower Creek
C Ammondeen 1924 Lower Creek
C Ammondeen 1925 Lower Creek
From NSW electoral rolls
1936 Ammondeen, Lower Creek, Upper Macleay, Kempsey, landholder
1937 Ammondeen, Lower Creek, ditto
1943 Ammondeen, Lower Creek, ditto
Perhaps they were forced to live apart to get work. Her death notice did say she was beloved wife of the late Charles Deen and probably wouldn't say that if they were "unhappily" separated for 40 years ....?
Good luck with death cert :)
cheers,
Ros
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Thought I'd pop back in with info I've just received from the death cert for Charles Ammondean I ordered.
It states he died age 83, he was a grazier.
Born in India
Time in colony/state - unknown.
Parents - unknown
Place married - Never married
The informant was no relation.
The age is around right, the birthplace is right, marriage details don't match.
Maybe though, it depended on what information the informant to the death knew about him. Maybe didn't realise he was married??
Maybe I'll just presume it is him, a lot of things match.
I know there was something to do with probate that muss put a link to .
Does anyone know if I ordered it,(because I think it will cost around $50 to order as it is in the Western Sydney Records Office and I'm in Brissie)what type of info would I find in there, just wondering if it would give me any further info.
Thanks
Mel
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Hi Mel
Probates can provide a lot of information so i will check out that probate at Kingswood for you and PM you the details.
Cheers :)
cupoflife
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Hi Mel
Unfortunately the Charles Ammondeen Probate at Kingswood does not seem like your man as he is listed as Bachelor and leaves his entire estate of 2,697 pounds to widow Ada West who is also the executrix of his will as published in SMH. As no assets were distributed to anyone else, there was no mention of any next of kin, parents, siblings etc no birthplace and no death certificate (which is sometimes included in probate records), although you already have his death certificate.
I guess the search continues for the mysterious Charles Deen....
Have you tried LDS Family History Research Centres for birth records and marriage/death records of his parents? which have eluded you so far. The LDS history centres are free to use but you should enquire if one near you has India Records. In NSW, Parramatta LDS History Centre has a large collection of India Record Indexes. Many, many, many more records than are available on FIBIS or FindMyPast or Familysearch, as they are being slowly processed by volunteers. It is a slow process of looking up microfilm and then ordering the relevant microfilm reel for the births/deaths/marriages which cost $7.50 to cover postage of the reel to your local LDS Centre for viewing and obtaining a copy. Your local LDS Family History Centre might be able to advise which centres in your area specialise in India Records or contact Parramatta LDS Family History (02) 9683-5849
Cheers :)
Babs
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Charlotte Agnes was either alone or with one of her children on the electoral rolls. It suggests to Charles was not eligible to vote or was deceased.
Do you have the 1908 marriage certificate? Hopefully his parents' names will help identify him in the indexes.
Have you considered this death?
1913/B17552
DEEN Charley
Father Deen Mother Louisa Deen
** born India aged 48 years
Cando
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There is a Charley Deen (a Cingalese) executed for murder in 1913 in Qld so hopefully that isn't him.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?sortby=dateAsc&q=%22charley+deen+%22~5&l-decade=191&l-year=1913
regards,
Ros
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Thanks so much Babs for looking for me at the probate records. Unfortunately it doesn't have any reference to my Charles family, so don't think this is him. I will have to look into the LDS centres though.
I do have his marriage cert which lists his parents as Herbert Deen and Fuzlenor Hussar. It states he was born in Rawalpindi India. (have had no luck tracking his birth down either)
Yes I did look at the 1913 Cingalese Charlie but don't think that is him, it would have been exciting though. My Charlie had children born in 1914 and 1918.
I have found some more info about Charlie having gone bankrupt, I'm not sure what year it was but prob early 1900s. I have found some newspaper articles on 26/27/28 Sept 1917 to do with his wife Charlotte Agnes Deen, in that she signed a guarantee in 1910 for money that her husband owed I think and they were suing her for the money. It is very interesting reading as it says that Charles had meet these businessmen several times in Sydney, so he obviously travelled from QLD to Sydney. That she was dealing with a lot of the business stuff until he got his clearance.
So maybe that is why he is not on electoral rolls, I wonder if there is any way I can find out if he got his 'clearance' and when.
It's really strange that Charlotte is always by herself, there is no electoral rolls where they are together.
Well looks like it's back to searching again.
Mel.
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Link to the news item
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0r3p/
Cando
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And another
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0r3q/
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And finally - the judge commented.... He was sorry to say he could not consider Mrs. Deen a witness of the truth. He thought she knew a great deal more than she admitted; she knew she was signing the document, and as her husband could not read and she could, a reasonable inference was that she read it..
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0r3r/
Cando
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Thanks Cando,
interesting the fact that it doesn't seem like Charles was there for the trial . There is really only reference to Charlotte being there. You would have thought maybe he would have been there as well??
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I was wondering if someone could tell me if I ordered a copy of marriage certificate from the 1940s, would this tell me the grooms fathers name and if he is deceased or not.
If I ordered one of Charles sons marriage certificates(a few of them married in the 40s), this could tell me at that time if Charles was still alive or not.
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I think they should but ...
First tell us the marriages and dates and let us see if we can find a marriage announcement on trove. Usually the marriage announcements say who parents are and whether they are the "late" parents or not.
regards,
Ros
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Was going to suggest that you try and narrow your time frame by his childrens marriages or even deaths (if any died before Charles). Marriage announcements for his children or even death announcements for his siblings in newspapers may also state if Charles was deceased at the time. Certificates ofcourse could always be a keepsake for your family tree anyway.
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interesting the fact that it doesn't seem like Charles was there for the trial . There is really only reference to Charlotte being there. You would have thought maybe he would have been there as well??
It would appear that a dividend had been declared on his estate [insolvency] however the court case was an action on a guarantee given by Charlotte not Charles so his presence wasn't necessary.
http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/Researchers/CollectionsDownloads/Documents/BG17Insolvency.pdf
WW2 Service Summary for Elam with Charlotte noted as NOK so are we to assume that Charles was deceased by 28 Jan 1942, date of enlistment. Discharged 11 Apr 1942. Usually the father of the enlistee is noted as NOK.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=356856
I was wondering if someone could tell me if I ordered a copy of marriage certificate from the 1940s
Where did the marriage in the 1940's take place? Queensland historical marriage certs are only available to 1937.
Cando
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Perhaps the marriages were in NSW...there are three possibilities Alan, Ellam and Charles ie if they are the children whose births were registered to Charles and Charlotte in Qld.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0r3v/
Cando
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Transcriptions of certificates are available in NSW...a cheaper option than purchasing a certified certificate and the information is the same. Transcript is emailed to you.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Cando
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Madge Agnes Deen marriage 1943 Lithgow, maybe local papers Penrith and Lithgow may have the announcement if you have a date from your research let us know and we can look it up.
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Hi
Lithgow Libruary has an index of the Lithgow Mercury
http://library.lithgow.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRN/ART/BSEARCH
Nothing for Deen however you might like to have a search
Cass
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I looked t the NAA site and there doesnt seem to be a naturalisation record for Charles Deen .
He would not appear on the Electoral records if he was not a Bristish citizen or a naturalised Australia.
Jenn
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Sorry, i've been a bit slow responding. Yes 3 of Charles sons were married in nsw in the 40's. Ellam in 44, Charles in 45 and Allan in 46. I think prob all married in Penrith or lithgow. I think I will order a marriage very maybe for Allan as he is the latest. I have used the transcription agent just last week, it was fantastic, cheaper and I paid for express and got it the next day. So I think that might be my next thing to do. I will have a look at that link for the lithgow paper too. Thanks
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Marriages are linked on reply#34.
Can you give us ALL Charles and Charlotte's children's names please? Or the names they were known by.
Are there any more births other than the one in 1918 which is not here...limit of indexes 1914.
1908/C12331 Elam
1909/C2918 Ommie
1909/C2919 Marm
1909/C2920 Cumimnure Doret
1909/C2921 Bibbie Jane
1909/C12371 Robert
1910/C13273 Charles Futtah
1914/C15901 Allan
I have been trawling the electoral rolls noting your DEEN family.
I did note a Charles DEEN, Draper, and an Ellam DEEN, Labourer living at Cement Mills, Gore in 1930. Perhaps this was Charles Snr as Charles Jnr would not be eligible to vote. In 1925 Charles Mohamed DEEN was at Gore with occupation, Dealer. Surely this would be Charlotte's husband and she was also at Gore.
I will type up the info if you don't have access to the rolls to 1980.
Have you traced all the children of Charles and Charlotte?
Cando
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Hi cando, thanks, I do have access to the electoral rolls , i think i need to make a list and go thru all the years an who is on them an where they are living. There are a few Charles so sometimes it's hard to know which Charles is which. I'm out at the moment but I do have most details of his kids which when I get home I'll post some more info.
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I think there was another child Madge (Mrs Barrett). She is the last child mentioned in Charlotte's death notice (which I can barely read).
From NSW BDM it appears that she married someone else before this ...?
Madge Agnes Barrett died in 1999 age 81 (from Ryerson Index http://ryersonindex.net/)
Not sure about this ... have I gone off-track? Can't find the second marriage on NSW BDM
regards,
Ros
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Hi rosball yes there was madge born 1918 as well I don't have much info on her marriages but did have her death.
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Ellam Deen (Joe) died 10 Nov 1965 in hospital but late of Yagoona. It appears that he was the loved husband of Phyllis and father of 3 named children. He was the fond brother of Madge (Mrs Barrett, Penrith), Charles (Penrith), Allan (Penrith), Norah and Ormie of Queensland. He was aged 57 years.
regards,
Ros
Hmm but from NSW BDM death in 1965 Ellam Deen's parents were Charles and Maura Pearl
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It seems that two of Ellam's son died quite early - Colin Robert Deen died 1971 and Jack Ellam Deen died 1980 and Ellam's wife Phyllis Amelia Deen died in 2007 (Ryerson's Index)
Straining my elderly eyes at a very faint paper ...
It seems that Charlotte Agnes Deen died 1 Oct 1961 at her son's residence 18 Lemongrove Rd Penrith, beloved wife of the late Charles Deen and loving mother of
[here it becomes blurry]
Ormie, Maud ? (Mrs Cash/Lash), Ellie/[Ellam I guess] ?,
[clearer again]
Charles, Allan and Madge(Mrs Barrett) aged 79 years
It seems that Allan Lyle Deen died Oct 11 1989, late of penrith, dearly loved husband of Mary, loving father of 3 named children, loved father-in-law and grandfather of their families. he was the loved brother of Madge. he was aged 75 years. All is well.
regards,
Ros
Adding here is blurry line
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Hi
information on Hawker's Licences
http://uncommonlives.naa.gov.au/muslim-journeys/enlargement/memorandum-by-rm-retallack-1-march-1939.aspx
Muss
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I've just received the marriage cert of one of Charles' sons Ellam from 2 Dec 1946. It has details of father as Charles Deen occupation: draper.
It doesn't have deceased or anything so I am just wondering if anyone has a marriage cert from around that time where the father of the bridal party was deceased. I'm wondering if it would actually say deceased if he had died?
I've also found from the courier mail on 11 Jan 1936 in the news from Goondiwindi which says that
"an application for a hawkers license for 12 months for C.M. Deen was recommended for that approval of the minister for Health and Home Affairs"
Would records of this application still exist and where possibly would I look for them.
Thanks
Mel.
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Hi
It's been quite a while since my original post, but thought I'd give a little update on some recent info I've come across.
Just last month, the National Archives added to their online search database a passport application for a Mohamed Deen. I ordered it and yes, it was my Charles Deen. It even had a photo of him, which was fantastic. I have been trying to find what happened to him for years and now with this latest info discovered that in 1939 he applied for a passport to go back India to apparantely sort out his fathers estate. Looks like as they couldn't verify his true identity they only issued a one way passport and he departed Aust in Mar 1939. So looks like Charles went back to India and possibly never came back to Australia, which is why I was having so much trouble finding his death.
Thanks everyone for your help trying to find him and just a reminder to keep going back to your "Brick Walls" as someday something could be added to a search database somewhere and viola you almost have your answer.
Mel.
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Thanks for the update Mel ;D
Cheers :)
Cando
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Hi melmaree - I'm today-new to rootschat! I joined because as I've been searching my family, your threads keep coming up. I'm the grandaughter of Charles and Patricia Deen (Penrith). You're right, family rumor has it that Charles Mohamed Deen went back to India on a treasure hunt! He did not return to Charlotte and the kids. Are there any other threads I could follow regarding our family?
Warmest regards
Trish
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Recently found this and looks like Charles or "Charlie" had a kid Barbara Evans to Annie Hibbett in Queensland.
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Recently found this and looks like Charles or "Charlie" had a kid Barbara Evans to Annie Hibbett in Queensland.
Do you any references for this information? Birth certificate numbers, newspaper articles, etc.
This help anyone else who might be searching for this family.
Regards
Jennaya
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Written in official correspondence to the Chief Protector of Aborigines in Queensland and in the Tindale geneologies.