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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: genjan1953 on Wednesday 05 September 12 23:19 BST (UK)
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Just watched this episode and thought it was excellent - best one so far this series! I won't go into too much detail in case people haven't watched it yet but Hurrah! we actually got some genealogy this week, after my gripes about the Patrick Stewart episode! ::)
I thought it was thoroughly absorbing and twas good that Annie herself seemed to be actively involved in the research. What a fascinating family history on both sides of her parents' ancestry ending with the strong minded, independent lady who made a living on her own in that harsh Scottish rural landscape. It was one of those episodes you have to watch more than once to take in everything as they covered so much ground. Great stuff :)
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yes i agree enjoyed every minute of it :)
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Great programme, even my OH watched it.
I did wonder if Annie Lennox was a bit too hard on Jessie's grandfather. It could be that it was his wife Isabella, who must have been extremely annoyed to find her husband had fathered a child only 5 months before their marriage, who wouldn't let him help out and the best he could do was to get his sister to take one of the children, even if as a servant.
Lizzie
ps. Aren't the Scottish records wonderful, all that information on the birth registers, plus all the paperwork still kept locally.
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Yes I thoroughly enjoyed it too and am quite jealous of people with Scottish ancestors! How nice to be able to see certificates online :) Annie was genuinely fascinated and deciphered the curly writing like a pro! I think I need to watch it again as I'm sure the name Farquharson turned up a couple of times (as a mother's maiden name and in a neighbouring house in a census) but wasn't mentioned.
I must say I was surprised how few results turned up for quite common surnames, if only all our research was so easy ;)
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Great episode, just a pity it didn't explain about what information is available for Scottish records a bit more. Hubby was quite interested as his family comes from there and I was trying to explain the difference to him about English and Scottish records and what is available and where, while trying to watch the programme as well. ;D
Regards panda
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Great episode. A tale of ordinary, everyday people just like many of our own ancestors going about the daily business of living and working; with a few hiccups along the way. Both sides of the family reseached which was also good to see.
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This was great! Proper genealogy 8) I agree with all the posts so far.
I was interested in this one because my older dau and family live there and all the place names were familiar.
Those parish records were wonderful :D
Kooky
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I really enjoyed it too. No great revelations or skeletons in the cupboard. Just ordinary everyday lives that you would expect in a rural community and industrial town. Similar kind of back stories to most people I woud think and fascinating for that. I also thought they could have made more of all the wonderful info we have on the Scottish records. I was kind of shouting at the tv when she was wondering about the rumour that her grandfather may have been illegitimate - was about ten mins later before she looked up his birth record! ::)
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There were a couple of "leaps of faith". This Jessie must be that Janet. This Mrs Cruickshank must be that Mrs Cruickshank.
Otherwise, a nice lot of genealogy.
Hibee
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That leap of faith came within the first 10-15 mins and it annoyed me. It was n't considered at least on tv whether the area might be wrong. I must have fell asleep just after, so need to watch it again. I'd just been to staffs record office that day! I must admit to see those records on line are good!
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Excellent programme on Annie. Her roots obviously go way back in Upper Deeside, Balmoral was clan territory for the Farquharson's & MacHardie's before Prince Albert bought the estate, having previously tried Ardverikie in Badenoch where it rained constantly during the royal visit and put them off.
The appearance before the Kirk Session must have been a bit of an ordeal, Robert Burns suffered it himself (there's a surprise), but before the introduction of the Poor Laws, the Kirk was the social security system in a parish and money was always tight.
Skoosh.
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Similar kind of back stories to most people I would think and fascinating for that.
Yes it was fascinating I thought. We don't share any names, (well I have Cruickshanks from Macduff/Banff, hopefully not the same as Mrs Cruickshank (A Rose) wasn't painted in a good light), however the Illegitimacy and the orphaning mirrored my families experiences so much I couldn't believe it. However as you said not uncommon practices in those days. Well done Annie & the WDYTYA team.
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Yes as said before a good episode showing us the great records available in Scotland.
I loved Annie - no soppy sentimental tears there.
Recorded it and must admit that I did fast forward the bit in the mill as we have seen this story so many times. Bill Oddies programme being the first of these to talk about mill workers. Otherwise I really enjoyed it all.
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Hi there Plummiegirl. The reason mill stories appear 'so many times' in the ancestries of people from the North of England and Scotland is that , like the coal mines , so many people up here worked in them . I have an ancestor as late as the 1871 census (Yorkshire) working in the mill at 6 years old
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There were a couple of "leaps of faith". This Jessie must be that Janet. This Mrs Cruickshank must be that Mrs Cruickshank.
Otherwise, a nice lot of genealogy.
Hibee
I agree, but I would go further and say that there were a number of suppositions which could have been made for dramatic effect. Of course, it's possible that these suppositions were further researched off-screen and became facts.
And I'm fairly sure that it wasn't Mrs Cruickshank that spoke about keeping the child until she outlived her usefulness - this was the suggestion in the letter.
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Well it was an interesting programme in as much it showed what you can find in Scotland reguarding the records, but I thought it was padded out at times by looking at the same piece more than once.
I have relations from Aberdeenshire so it was an interesting programme for me.
But what nearly all these programmesw lack is telling people just starting out it is an expensive hobby and to get what they show costs money.
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I really enjoyed the programme and as an occasional user of Scottish records, thought it was nice to see them being shown, although I agree, it might have been a great opportunity to explain the difference to English records.
I thought Annie was great - no weepies - even though the story was sad. I felt she had a real appreciation of the lives of ordinary people who struggled to survive and the hardships that faced so many.
Nick - I too didn't think it was Mrs Cruickshank who made the suggestion about Jessie's usefulness....
All round I felt it was a more satisfying programme all round - even with the leaps of faith!
Sylvia
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I thought it was Mrs Cruickshank who made the suggestion. The writing in the records said Letter recd (received) from Mrs Cruickshank etc. etc. No-one seemed to pick up on that, Annie Lennox said Letter read and she wasn't contradicted.
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Who do you think you are bbc
Annie Lennox
She's one of us she's a McHardy
Moderator comment: topics merged
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Good episode. I hope the old mill gets preserved for future generations to visit.
Blue
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Very interesting programme.
When they were saying that one of her female ancestors didn't claim poor relief, it made me wonder how early insurance mutuals started in Scotland and whether the visit to the Kirk was in fact part of early type of mutual society, although women were always discriminated against in these schemes? Maybe the flax/weaving industry had some kind of mutual scheme?
Annie Lennox did use the verb "insure" in another context early on in the programme which set me thinking long these lines.
Interesting also that another long-lived ancestor was said to have "died of dementia" (did we see the death certificate with this on it?) and the man said he doubted it and that she probably died of old age - exactly what I often think when its often said now that someone has died of dementia or Alzheimers! I forget when exactly she died but remember that it was after state pensions were introduced in 1908, in fact very shortly after old age pensions were introduced so she hardly had time to claim her pension!
The history of pensions is very interesting although not covered in the programme except perhaps in a couple of hints. Widows funds were established already in the 17th century in Germany for widows of the clergy (don't know what happened to the clergy's illegitimates ...) and for male teachers with widows of clergy funds founded more widely in Europe in the 18th century - so the involvement of the Kirk with Annie Lennox's family is quite intriguing.
Of course at that time especially in Britain there was an Empire and there was funding for such schemes to be be set up in Britain. Germany already set up a state pension scheme in 1889, many years before the UK but of course after WW1 lost its empire and couldn't cover the old age pensions which is why before the concentration camps, they started putting a lot of elderly people into old people's homes.
Wonder whether those who worked at Balmoral or on any of the big estates got any kind of occupational pension?
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I have a death certificate of an ancestor who died age 80+ and the cause of death is given as Senile Decay. I have always thought this was old age, whereas I would think if the cause of death is senile dementia, then that is more than just old age. As we didn't see the certificate - Rootschatters with subs to Scotlandspeople needed here - we can only guess at what it said.
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That leap of faith came within the first 10-15 mins and it annoyed me. It was n't considered at least on tv whether the area might be wrong. I must have fell asleep just after, so need to watch it again. I'd just been to staffs record office that day! I must admit to see those records on line are good!
Westie - when that "leap of faith" came, I said to OH how many people there would be over the country shouting at the tv - DON'T ASSUME WITHOUT PROOF!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Sadly...no one has a subs to Scotlands People...it is all pay to view :-\
Lizzie, likely the death cert that you mention simply stated 'senile decay'. As you mention, it likely had a wider meaning, such as that shown here www.antiquusmorbus.com/English/Senility.htm
Monica
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"Annie Lennox
She's one of us she's a McHardy"
She must be related to my wife in some way then. I must have a look at the program on I-player.
Regards
Malky
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Sadly...no one has a subs to Scotlands People...it is all pay to view
Oh yes, I forgot that. I only use it infrequently and just pay a few pounds at a time.
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When they show a book and call it a certificate they are wrong! It is a register entry, from which a cert can be copied.
I agree with those who feel that Mrs C. Was unfairly criticised by the librarian.
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I have just watched the unseen footage from this programme and found it even more fascinating than some of the footage which made the final cut. You can tell where Annie gets her campaigning genes from and she is extremely proud of her family. Amazing stuff
Sylvia
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I wonder what happened to Jessie's siblings when their mother died?
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It was a very interesting episode - partly because I live near by, and secondly because I knew two of the 'experts'.
I became even more interested when they mentioned the Rose family of Banff, but sadly they didn't say much about James himself. My 5xgreat grandmother was Mary Rose (c.1802-58), illegitimate daughter of Patrick Rose, Sheriff Clerk of Banffshire. I'm sure there will be a connection somewhere.
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Unseen footage here for anyone interested in seeing more ::) ;)
www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/footage/13799
Monica
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I agree with all of you and thought it was a great programme, back on form after last week's strange episode, and how good to show the depth and breadth of information the Scottish certificates bring. I know people sometimes feel that Scotland's People can be expensive, but I've always reckoned for what you can see it's actually better value for money than ordering the English / Welsh ones by post.
As to the leaps of faith, the first time they did it (stab in the dark to the last census, not Jessie? never mind, let's try Janet, oh, 2 of them, never mind this must be her..) I wondered what on earth they were playing at to make such a sweeping assumption, then realised they had done all their research before and were just truncating the process for the camera. After all, if they'd entered it into Scotlands People properly they'd have taken the'name variants' option and been given Janet anyway. I assumed they'd done it this way to give a better dramatic effect for the viewer and at the end that's what it is, a TV programme, not a documentary on research. I liked Annie's attitude to it all, she was proud of them and so she should be.
As with so many of you, everything struck a chord for me, the areas, the families, the backgrounds and occupations, but I suppose what made the producers decide it would make a good story was the Solicitor rich family/poor relation link, the royal connection, and above all those wonderful Kirk records. If only we could all find detailed records like that!
It's still frustrating though isn't it? The 'celebrities' always seem to be satisfied, "now I know..." whereas all of us would be screaming "know?! you haven't scratched the surface! what about grandma? what about the brothers and sisters? what happened to so and so?" and go on and on and on searching for the next ten years...
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Hi Maggie :)
So agree with your comments! Laughed when I saw the Aberdeen Library researcher working through the screens on Scotlands People and click onto an already paid for image, straight into the correct certificate image...if only life was so simple ;)
Monica
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Yes
Considering I have shares in SP ( ;)) like so many of us with Scots ancestors, I just giggled when things were shown as being found so quickly and simply.
BUT thoroughly enjoyed it as I have Jean Henderson's galore in amongst my lot... Although sadly a different area.
xin
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It's still frustrating though isn't it? The 'celebrities' always seem to be satisfied, "now I know..." whereas all of us would be screaming "know?! you haven't scratched the surface! what about grandma? what about the brothers and sisters? what happened to so and so?" and go on and on and on searching for the next ten years...
Only 10 years? :D :D :D :o :o ;D
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Good episode. I hope the old mill gets preserved for future generations to visit.
Blue
Hi,
Lovely sentiment, but that won't happen. It is a very political hot potato in Aberdeen (not up to UTG level, but still controversial). It is owned by a very rich man who is (rightly in my mind) criticised for leaving the building open to arson attacks and vandalism, costing the public a lot of money. Anyone interested can get more details by googling broadford works/arson. Here is a good blog and photos of the works: http://www.abandonedscotland.com/blog/broadford-works-aberdeen-guest-article/
The building holds a lot of memories for me as my Mum worked there in the 70's. Later I found on the census her ancestors had worked in the linen manufacturing trade; which I can only guess was also at Broadfords.
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Enjoyed the extra footage also
Thank You for link
I had no idea we could have more
Nothing on the McHardy side but still very interesting for me
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The building holds a lot of memories for me as my Mum worked there in the 70's. Later I found on the census her ancestors had worked in the linen manufacturing trade; which I can only guess was also at Broadfords.
You should get in touch with the Maritime Museum in Aberdeen - they're interested in hearing stories from and about women who worked in the Mill!
I noticed your other post about church records being held locally, when Annie went to the Episcopal Church in Banff. The burial record they showed is actually held in Aberdeen and was taken up to the church for filming! Some Episcopal records are held at Aberdeen City & Aberdeenshire Archives (www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/archives) and some at the University of Aberdeen's Special Collections (www.abdn.ac.uk/historic/Intro.shtml). It's the same with the Banff parochial board records - it's held by the City & Shire Archives as well!
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Mant thanks for that extra footage Monica, a great pity it was missing from the programme, I wonder why?
Skoosh.
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Almost certainly time constraints. There are probably several more hours of film that don't even make it to the 'extras' category
All the WDYTYA episodes have extra footage, via the WDYTYA magazine website
www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com
Linda
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This gives an idea of the amount of unseen footage available www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/search/node/footage
Monica
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Nice one Monica! :)
I was only aware of the current episodes as I am on the WDYTYA mag mailing list
Linda
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Mant thanks for that extra footage Monica, a great pity it was missing from the programme, I wonder why?
Skoosh.
Most definitely time constraints! They filmed for 10 days for the Annie Lennox programme, for around 3-5 hours per day...I still don't know how they cut it down to just an hour. But that's why there are apparent leaps of faith, which have been meticulously researched before filming - they just can't show it all! Wish they could though.
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Some Episcopal records are held at Aberdeen City & Aberdeenshire Archives (www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/archives) and some at the University of Aberdeen's Special Collections (www.abdn.ac.uk/historic/Intro.shtml). It's the same with the Banff parochial board records - it's held by the City & Shire Archives as well!
Thank you Archivos! Are they separate records, or duplicated? Do you know if they would they be the same as transcribed by the late Strath Maxwell for ANESFHS?
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I was interested in the solicitor who 'abandoned' his illegit. daughter and the childs mother; just a bit on the side obviously, before his marriage. It reminded me of the way slave owners treated their women slaves, and often had children with them.
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Having an interest in the Rose family, I've tracked down James Rose's wife, Isabella Falder.
She died down in Partick, Lanark in 1861 aged about 59 years in a Lunatic Asylum...widow of ----- Rose.
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Great programme. Wish I had seen all the footage. Naff though this sounds, half the fun - and most of the satisfaction - of pursuing one's ancestors comes from the chase... ;)
My great, great grandfather was Irish but died in Glasgow. I was seriously impressed with the information on the Scottish certificate when I found his death certificate on Scotland's people. Had he died in Ireland, I would still be in the dark about two generations of my family. Pleased that the the programme spent time on the detail.
Hopefully the Patrick Steward episode was a one-off.
Annie 1[00] Patrick 0
MH
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It's still frustrating though isn't it? The 'celebrities' always seem to be satisfied, "now I know..." whereas all of us would be screaming "know?! you haven't scratched the surface! what about grandma? what about the brothers and sisters? what happened to so and so?" and go on and on and on searching for the next ten years...
Only 10 years?
:D :D :D :o :o ;D
I must have a short attention span!
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Yes, a good episode. Especially interesting because it's the first one I've ever seen that used exclusively Scottish records, so I was better able than usual to understand the jumps and assumptions and spot the bits they left out.
I had the 1851 census for James Rose up on FreeCEN before Annie got her copy of it, and given that he was born in Turriff I was already speculating about Mrs Cruickshank being related to him.
Also, was silently yelling at the screen to look for Janet when Annie wasn't finding Jessie, and vice versa.
But I do wish that they hadn't kept on referring to the entries in the parish registers as 'birth certificate' and 'marriage certificate' because they aren't.
Also wish that they wouldn't always produce documents in places other than where they are kept. She didn't actually need to go to Banff to do the research, and anyone who got the idea that they have to go to Banff to research their ancestors in Banff would end up making a wasted journey.
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Now I am envious of you all. Wish I could see it. Will probably have to wait another year until it comes out on dvd. I finally got hold of the previous series in August when the dvds were released.
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Good episode. I hope the old mill gets preserved for future generations to visit.
Blue
Further to my earlier reply: see link
http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/CouncilNews/ci_cns/pr_broadfordworks_190712.asp
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Some Episcopal records are held at Aberdeen City & Aberdeenshire Archives (www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/archives) and some at the University of Aberdeen's Special Collections (www.abdn.ac.uk/historic/Intro.shtml). It's the same with the Banff parochial board records - it's held by the City & Shire Archives as well!
Thank you Archivos! Are they separate records, or duplicated? Do you know if they would they be the same as transcribed by the late Strath Maxwell for ANESFHS?
The Episcopal records haven't been transcribed by anyone, as far as I know! I know Strath Maxwell did the St Paul's ones, but I don't think he would have had access to many of the others. Perhaps I sense an indexing project for these records?!
The poor relief records are in the process of being digitised as well - not sure where they'll be made available online, but possibly through the Scotland's Places website, which now has a subscription section.
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Have the register of applications and register of poor for Banff survived? If so, I wonder why they didn't look Janet/Jessie Fraser up in those records - they might even have shed some light on Mrs Cruickshank.
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Have the register of applications and register of poor for Banff survived? If so, I wonder why they didn't look Janet/Jessie Fraser up in those records - they might even have shed some light on Mrs Cruickshank.
No - only the minutes from 1896 - 1928 have survived for Banff, along with an abstract of accounts from 1930. The surviving poor relief material for Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire and Morayshire is listed on Aberdeen City & Aberdeenshire Archives online catalogue at www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/onlinecatalogue. You can search for whichever parish you're interested in, and see what's listed for it. The records are held at the Dunbar Street office of the Archives.
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Thank you, Archivos
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Thank you, Archivos
Nae bither at a'!
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I was interested in the solicitor who 'abandoned' his illegit. daughter and the childs mother; just a bit on the side obviously, before his marriage. It reminded me of the way slave owners treated their women slaves, and often had children with them.
thing is we don't actually know that he did abandon Ann and his daughter. We have Mr Rose named on the baptism record (*wish I could see what the notes under the record said) in 1821 then nothing til we see his daughter Mary in 1851 census as a pauper/widow with 5 kids .. she was 30. (If we see paupers in our trees that are in their 30s do we usually think why isn't her dad helping her out at that age?) There is nothing about Ann requesting financial assistance from poor relief or anything else about her after 1821 so we have absolutely no idea if Mr Rose took a financial responsibility for his child up to her coming of age or not and we don't know if he ever had anything to do with Mary after her birth or not.
We know where and how Mary was living in 51 as a adult but we don't know how Ann had lived or how Mary lived before her marriage... for all we know Mr Rose could have made sure they were ok even if not living at same standard as himself. We don't know if Ann had any more children or married someone.
Jessie goes off to live with Mr Rose's sister which would give the impression that he was aware of some responsibility for the grandchild even if the programme does give the strong impression it wasn't done "with love" (*wondered what happened to Jessies siblings?)
We don't know if Mr Rose used, abused and abandoned Ann - we don't know how he knew her or if he had anything to do with her again after his marriage - she could have been his bit on the side for years / she could have been a very willing one night stand ... we simply do not know.
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I only watched this at the weekend on a repeat recorded series and found it really interesting. :) I'm going to see if the links to extra footage are still available, so thank you for that.
I hope I find some Scottish people in my tree because their records are excellent.