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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: axecalibre on Tuesday 04 September 12 14:30 BST (UK)
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Wonder of some kind RC could help with parents of
William Thomas born 16 October 1788 St Issells, died Elford Staffs 1855
Married 22 August 1793, St Mary's, Bridgwater
Hannah Tutton born 3 February 1793, died 14 November 1849 Bridgwater
My grandfather was their son Richard Thomas, he had four sisters. I have traced Richard and his sisters but cannot find any information on Their father William and mother Hannah.
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I have checked my transcription of the St Issells baptism register and then compared with the Findmypast online index/copies too. Both show the baptism of a William Thomas on 17/10/1788, father's name William. No mother's name shown, not unusual for the St Issells register at this time. To be baptised 1 day after birth is a tad surprising - was the baby not expected to survive?
Bearing in mind that Thomas was a common surname around this coalmining parish at the time, I looked for other baptisms with William as a father to see if there was an obvious mother's name too. There are no later baptisms until 1802 and 1x in 1782 to William/Mary, a daughter called Anne. However, the St Issells register for the early 1780s is largely missing and, where available, unreliable. So, I am not sure I can draw any conclusions that William/Mary were the parents.
Not much to go on!
Jon
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Thank you Jon for looking, yes I wondered about baptism day after birth either not expected to live as you say or maybe it was a Sunday! The information you have given me fits in with other information I have found. Unfortunately, as you say, with a surname like Thomas it is difficult to tie in parents, it looks as if the information is not out there.
axecalibre
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Looking back at my notes, I should clarify something I said on my first post. That the mother's name is not included in the baptism register is unusual for this period. Still, I am not sure what you can make of this.
Jon
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mmmm Jon, maybe cos she was still lying abed and her husband/mother took the baby to be baptised. Was this in a C of E church or Welsh church? However you would think the vicar would have known who the mother was!!
Guess this is one of those brick Walls that will never be knocked down
Many thanks
axecalibre
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William Thomas born 16 October 1788 St Issells
Married 22 August 1793, St Mary's, Bridgwater
Hannah Tutton born 3 February 1793My grandfather was their son Richard Thomas, he had four
Please excuse my confusion, but if William Thomas was born in 1788 and Hannah Tutton was born in 1793, who was it that mrd at St Mary’s Bridgwater 22 Aug 1793, certainly not William & Hannah, or am I missing something.
There is no reference to a mrge of a William Thomas at St Issells pre 1788, so the best guess mrge, I can speculate is William Thomas to Margaret Evans in 1783 at Begelly or William Thomas to Elizabeth David also at Begelly in 1784.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
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Oh Oriel so glad you spotted that!
Marriage was 1812, 22 August.
Thank you for those suggestions, there is a Celtic Ancestry which suggests the following:
William Thomas b 16 October 1788 of Fferm Craig Begelly
father William born 1754 Fferm Craig, Begelly, died 30 October 1830 Castell Nedd, was married to Ann Phillips b1761. I have, however, found out that there is a family bible which disputes the name of Williams wife. Details also that William was agent to Lord Milford, in 1794 employed at colliery 12 miles up the vale of Neath.
Father of William b 1754, was Griffith Thomas b 1730 of Rock Farm, mother Elizabeth b abt 1730 Dyfed.
This is the end of the details.
My reason for posting was finding that the wife of William was not Ann Phillips, and I decided to check the details for real.
Jon, William b1788 became a publican census 1841, but on his son Richards christening in 1815 his occupation was mariner. This family were the founders of Richard Thomas (& Baldwin).
I hope this is not too confusing...
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Totally unscientific speculation for your future reference ;
William Thomas mrd Ann Phillips at Tenby in 1770
William Thomas mrd Elizabeth Davies at Begelly in 1776
Griffith Thomas mrd Elizabeth Edward at Llanfallteg in 1748
Rgds
Orielbenfro
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I have come across this topic before when I met the Celtic Genealogy man at NLW once by chance and we had a chat about this.
Firstly, (Golden) Rock Farm (aka Fferm Craig) is in Begelly parish, just to the north of Thomas Chapel hamlet. I query the baptism of William Thomas in St Issells parish as a result, which although not impossible, is unlikely. Maybe our speculation about the health of the baby comes into play here but Reynalton church was about half a mile away so, if Begelly church was out of action for any reason, would you in extremis traipse to St Issells 2-3 miles along difficult roads or Reynalton?
If you look at the Land Tax returns for Begelly parish, a Griffith Thomas is the occupier of Golden Rock in 1786. He was buried at Begelly 14/10/1786, his death due to breaking his back when he fell off a coal wagon (I have the references for these if you want them). The inquest was held at his widow's house (house not named), her name being Letitia Thomas, not Elizabeth as per your earlier post. "Widow" Thomas continues to occupy Rock until around 1791 (per Land Tax returns) when John Brace takes over the tenancy. A "Lettice" Thomas buried at Begelly 27/6/1793 - I'd speculate she is "Widow Thomas".
Does the family bible support this? As you probably know the Begelly registers do, with a keen eye, go back into the 1760s. The birth information however that you quote must come from this bible or another source.
Jon
PS. Where does 'Fferm Craig' come from??? No references to this name in the 18th or 19th century records of Rock Farm I have looked at. A later affectation?
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The family bible info comes from the Mowbray family. Susan Thomas b 1829, sister of Richard Thomas, married Alfred Richard Mowbray, so the information came from her about her father William Thomas b1788, and the fact that his father was also called William. That is all I know, of course this is heresay on Susan's part? But I do feel is more accurate than some...
Fferm Craig comes, I believe, from the gentleman you met, and I thought a translation into Welsh...
I would like to join the dots so to speak, ie make the link back to Griffith Thomas, but only if the relationship is correct as the gentleman infers on his website.
Thank you again Jon for your interest and help and Oriel too, looks as if we have four contenders for wife of William Thomas.
Is there any mileage in searching for the children of Griffith and Letitia (so much nicer name than Elizabeth!) to see if there is a William? Again an inaccuracy adjusted unless Griffith remarried, or William was born wrong side of blanket .....
William could have been away from home with his wife when she went into labour, baby born early, quick baptism at nearest church........ Sorted!!
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Little survives in the way of primary material for Begelly etc in the 1700s.
One of the key sources is the records of the Picton Castle estate. Rock was from around 1790 leased by the estate and there's some good stuff in the NLW and Pembrokeshire RO about the farm from then on. Unfortunately, before this date, the farm appears to have been sub-tenanted as part of the much larger Thomas Chapel farm and its records have not survived. This is a pity as it is possible to trace ownership and other family details of some of the local farms back into the 1600s using the estate's records
So unless you find specific material relating to the family (eg refs in probate docs, central court records), I doubt you'll be able to link Griffith Thomas. I will be happy and interested to be proved wrong! Sorry not to be more hopeful or helpful.
Your comments about the birth and a possible remarriage of Griffith Thomas of course make good sense.
Jon
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Thank you for that information Jon it all helps to fill in the background.
A long shot, but would there be a will for Griffith or Letitia, if so where should I look?
Up to now I have concentrated on BMD and census returns but more recently have begun to want to put flesh on the bones so to speak!
axecalibre
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As you no doubt know, finding pre-1858 wills etc can be a complex task.
Thankfully the National Library of Wales has published on line both an index and also the original documents for local wills etc proved in the St Davids Court. It's a wonderful service, free of charge to boot. See
http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=487
(note: in the index the parish name 'Begelly' has been transposed for 'Begeli')
The other main source, the Prerogative Court of Canterbury probate documents, are available on TNA's web site. Charges apply to download a document unless you are visiting TNA.
Jon
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Thank you Jon registered and will have a go
Mmmmm thoughts....
William b 1788 has Tenby as place of birth, if he had been born/lived at St Issells region would he not have put that instead of Tenby. IF his father William came from/lived in Tenby maybe there would be a record of his birth there.
Was Griffith an unusual Christian name?
Maybe Elizabeth/Letitia/Lettice one and the same person?
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It is uncommon for people born in Begelly/St Issells parishes to record their place of birth in census returns as Tenby but not unique. Little more than an impoverished fishing village in the 1700s, Tenby was becoming a fashionable resort in the early 1800s so I could surmise that some people from the obscure and humble coalmining parishes of Begelly etc might want to record their origins in the more genteel Tenby.
With that caveat in mind you may want to look at the Tenby records. Borough records are held at the Tenby Museum, a source I have not explored. It may contain 'wonderful things'.
Griffith as a forename is rare in this area. I have not heard of Elizabeth being an alternative for Letitia etc.
Best of luck
Jon
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Hi Jon
Have caught up with your 'chat' on Rootsweb with Arthur/David TT in which you mention Rock Farm and the Thomas family.
You mention a David Thomas marrying Jane Morse. The TT genealogy has David Thomas of Ramshorn, brother to William Thomas b1754, marrying Jane Morse.
Still no evidence for this?? You can appreciate my frustration...
axecalibre
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TT has a Lettice Thomas b 1791 daughter of William Thomas and Ann Phillips, so dead end.
Cannot find will/probate for Griffith Thomas, don't suppose he had time after coming off his cart...