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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: maggiegorey on Monday 03 September 12 21:01 BST (UK)
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Hi
As Im on a roll here today, I'd like to ask for some more help
My great grandfather Archibald Allen (born carlow 1832/33) married Kate Byrne from Wicklow.
He died in Ballybrack and is buried in Deansgrange cemetary.
The problem is that we cant find a birth cert for him, or a marriage cert for him and Catherine (Kate)
It would have ben a mixed marriage, Archibald being CI and Kate RC.
I have birth certs for almost all of their children,and they seem to all have been baptised in Pro-Cathedral.
The only Archibald I can find for that date is listed as being the son of George Allen and Elizabeth?
The nearest Kate I can find was born in Hacketstown (which is now Carlow but was probably Wicklow ) in 1859.
Any help would be much appreciated.
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Hiya
Where have you gotten that Archibald was from Carlow ?
Tara
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So he had obviously passed away by 1901 as Catherine is listed as a widow
allen family 1901 Irish Census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Killiney/Ballybrack/1317747/)
Tara
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Hiya
I can see some prison records for him and yes they say he was born in Carlow
Tara
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Hi Tara
I got the info from both family members and from the irish Genealogy site.
The prison bit is new though!!!
Where did you come across that??
I know the Allens that Ive had contact with had a history with the irish Constabulary - any chance he was'nt a felon???
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These are them
archibald allen prison records (https://www.familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aarchibald~%20%2Bsurname%3Aallen~%20%2Bany_place%3Adublin~&collection_id=2043780)
Tara
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Hi Maggie
While the irishgenealogy site that you have mentioned is great it doesn't have all the records from Carlow
I have also noticed tho on the site an Archibald Allen marrying in 1867
archibald allen 1867 marriage (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0579ab0012004)
I think this chap HAS to be a cousin of your Archibald !
He states on this that his father's name was Benjamin and we know that YOUR Archibald named one of his son's Benjamin.....................!
If you look at the following
the name benjamin allen in carlow (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=benjamin&namel=allen&exact=&name2fm=&name2l=&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=&diocese=CARLOW+(COI)&parish=¢ury=&decade=&sort=&pageSize=100&ddB=&mmB=&yyB=&ddM=&mmM=&yyM=&ddD=&mmD=&yyD=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&member0=&member1=&member2=&member3=&member4=&member5=&member6=&member7=&member8=&member9=&namef0=&namef1=&namef2=&namef3=&namef4=&namef5=&namef6=&namef7=&namef8=&namef9=&namel0=&namel1=&namel2=&namel3=&namel4=&namel5=&namel6=&namel7=&namel8=&namel9=&keyword=&submit=Search)
the same names are repeated
There is a Lancelot Allen and an Amelia Allen
names which we know carried on in your family
Might be worth following up !
Tara
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Hi Tara
All of these Allens are the correct family, cost my mother hd a cousin Benny, Lancelot, Amelia (all of whose birth certs Ive found)
Everyone seems to have been born, but noone seems to have been married ::) ::)
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Hiya
Did you get though the fact that I'm saying that these were obviously family names in Archibald's past from Carlow as witnessed on the irishgenealgoy site !
Are you over the shock of the prison records yet LOL !
I think we've all found some relation on there !
Tara
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Just been tlking to my sister, who nearly choked on her supper!!! :D :D
Stil cant get over it.
Having said that, we all know that you only had to look crooked at someone in those days to be slammed in the clink.
I dont know for certain, but I have a vague memory of being told that he had been in the constabulary, and I know that somewhere someone found a reference to being some class of a military/police pensioner, so unless he took exception to something some young upstart said......!!!
Its driving me mad to think I'll never know the full story ;D
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Hi
I will send you a PM !
Tara
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OK Tara
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Im thoroughly fed up.
After getting all the info the other day from this site, I seem to have come to another dead end.
We know archie was born in Carlow, in 1832/33. and died in Ballybrack at the age of 65, and his death cert lists the date as 1898, so thats about right.
The only marriage cert we can find is for (presumably) the same Archie to Alicia Hynes/Hyens in Dublin South in 1867.
We know he married Catherine (Kate) Byrne) because all of the children including my grandfather list Kate Byrne as their mother, but we cant find a marriage for them.
Now I do realise that there is a possibility that they werent married, but a lot of their children were baptised in the Pro cathedral.
I know I can try the Pro-Cathedral for the marriage cert (its about the only placeI have'nt tried yet) but what happened to Alicia?? We cant find a death cert for her.
Also Kate was from Wicklow, so its likely they could have been married there (she had relatives in Bray).
None of the usual sites have thrown up ANY info, and Family search just keeps giving me Archie and Alicia's marriage cert.
Anyone have any ideas?
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......
Now I do realise that there is a possibility that they werent married, but a lot of their children were baptised in the Pro cathedral.
I know I can try the Pro-Cathedral for the marriage cert (its about the only placeI have'nt tried yet) but what happened to Alicia?? We cant find a death cert for her.
Also Kate was from Wicklow, so its likely they could have been married there (she had relatives in Bray).
.....
Kate/Catherine lists her place of birth as Co. Wicklow - so I'd say a marriage in Wicklow is a possibility, although the older children I see for the couple on the 1901 census have Dublin city as place of birth. Those born later have Co. Dublin.
When and where were the children born, especially the eldest child ?
I think the Archibald / Alica may be a different couple to your Archibald..
On the 1901 return Catherine and most of the children are listed as Church of Ireland - so not sure the Pro-Cathedral is the right place to look for a marriage....particular if it was mixed denomination, although the Kate and the remaining family are all listed RC in 1911 ?
Shane
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I'm not seeing any marriage for Archibald and Catherine - checked civil and Dublin City parish records. Based on Catherine's age I was guessing it would have been late 1870s or very early 1880s...
Following up via possible baptisms on the free Index search on Roots Ireland throws up a possible clue ... although it creates a problem with the timeline unless Catherine's age is underestimated quite a bit on the census returns.
From what I can see a Robert Allen was baptised in South Co. Dublin in 1876 - looks like Kingstown/Dún Laoghaire. I didn't work out the full names for the parents but the father begins with 'Arch' and the mother is 'Kat..' Byrne
The record seems to appear in extracted records with a mis-ranscription of Catherine's surname..
name: Robert Allen
birth date: 17 Dec 1876
birthplace: Dublin, Ireland
Parents : Archibold Allen & Catherine Ryrice
Based on the BMD Index, the birth was in Rathdown district, which includes South East Co. Dublin, including Dún Laoghaire and Ballybrack etc
Shane
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Hi Maggie,
My one thinking re the marriage of Archibald and Kate is the following:
I have been told before (by a friend who hire a professional geneologist to find paperwork for her) that members of the RIC would get married through their 'barracks' - sorry this isn't the correct word but Mammy brain has turned to mush today !!
Anyway, what I was told was that this was for pension purposes of some sort, but that these marriages sometimes weren't registered. It was then up to the couple to get married (am not sure if it was civily or through church) at a later stage.
This can sometimes result in some children appearing to have been born out of wedlock, even though their parents HAD married.
My reasoning here is that if your family story is true that that Archibald was in the RIC that maybe they had the 'police marriage' but maybe due to different religions (or any number of other reasons) never got around the second marriage.
Hi Shane, have you ever heard this 'story' - as I would love to know how true it is.
Tara
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Hi Shane and Tara
The Robert listed as being born in 1876 is Arch and Kates son - I noticed that the spelling of Kates name was wrong, but it was corrected in a second listing.
Im beginning to thinki the marriage does have something do do with the military records, because I noticed on Arch and Alicias cert that he is listed as being from Portobello, and married in Rathmines.
well, from what I know, Portobello barracks would have been in the Rathmines district, although I have asked questions of the family as to whether this couple are in fact the same Arch.
I used to think that having family names was a blessing, but not any more!!!
Is there any way I can check "barracks" marriages, or does this term mean that there wont be any record??
Thank you both very much for the look-upos.
Maggie
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I havn't come across that exact situation - but have seen a complication re marriage in that RIC men needed to have served a minimum of 7 year before being allowed marry - so sometime they married in a church without informing their superiors and then married again once they had done their seven years
btw - I read the comment re Allen family History with the Irish Constabulary as being on the other side of the law...
Shane
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re the 1867 marriage - might be worth trying a civil cert if you dont have one already - and check for possible military connections with occupations, and possibly a cert would also show more detailed addresses.
Shane
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Hi again Maggie,
Also re the Archi that married Alicia............
I thought the 'train of thought' was that the other Archie was a cousin !
The 'other' Archie's baptism is on irishgenealogy and he was born 10 years before yours !
archibald allen 1822 baptism (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/6721550004171)
Tara
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Hi Tara
(and Shane)
;D ;DYes we do seem to have a very varied family!! Just glad they didnt end up in Oz (though it might have been easier to find them!!)
The archie born in 1822 - the reason I havent pursued him is that it would make for a VERY big difference in age between him and Catherine (I know that was'nt unusual, but somehow the other archie seems more likely)
Some of the cousins have already checked with the place in the irish Life Mall but no record for archie and catheroine.
Am beginning to wonder if its possible they married in England???
Have to go now - beback later
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Hi Maggie
1. The reason why I didn't think the 'other' Archie was the guy that we were looking for was that the prison records which were an exact match for address for 'your' Archie confirmed that he was born in 1832 and NOT 1822 like the 'other' Archie.
2. This could be WAY out but I'm just looking at the surname Allen in Carlow
This family are Allen's from Carlow
other allen family from Carlow (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Bray/Wave_Crest/1811682/)
I found the marriage for this Anne and her husband Richard Allen
richard allen marriage (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d7a9620535169)
and his occupation on his marriage is RIC !
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How on God's green earth did I not spot this before !
archibald allen military records (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5CM-2RJ)
Tara
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;D
I dont know - was it the drink??
Actually, my cousin in UK has a copy of this I think, which is why I wondered about the military connection.
I dont knoiw if it is worth looking for a connection to the Hynes family through his service - might have a look and see if patrick served in India (Alicias father).
Might account for their meeting.
I dont know if the other Allen are a connection - there are actually a lot of Allens in Wicklow - the only tenuous connection is that Archie and Kates daughter married a chap from Bray.
If I can connect him to anyone else in the chain, I might be on the road....!!!
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Was there any further information on those records then that your cousin has ?
I haven't seen originals of Chelsea Pensioner's ones but other military records usually give parent's names or next of kin !
I take it then that you are running with the idea now that the Archie that married Alicia is your Archie too ???
Tara
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::) ::)
Yup
Not that it helps much.
It seems that the archie who was a chelsea pensioner served in india in the Bengal Lancers, and was discharged in 1862.
However none of that helps me to trace his relatives.
As far as I can remember it didnt give a next of kin.
Also, every time I try to search for eiother Alicia or Catherine (Kate) they still keep coming up as the wife(wives) of archie, but no-one seems to have been a bridesmaid at the wedding, and there DEFINITELY no camera phones present ;D ;D ;D
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Just maybe (!!) found a possible link.
Archies father was given as Benjamin on the marriage cert, and his mother as elizabeth on his birth cert.
One of the family names is Amelia (variously written as Meliora ets) and Ive just found this:
Name: Mary Elizabeth Ancelia Allen
Baptism/Christening Date: 03 Feb 1841
Baptism/Christening Place: Madras, Madras, India
Birth Date: 03 Feb 1841
Father: Benjamin Allen
Mother: Elizabeth
Ref.: v 20 p 166
Im convinced they are linked to Archie, but cant figure if he is his father, brother or cousin.
If he is his father, does this mean that both of them were in India at some stage??
Pass the valium!! ::)
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Have also just discovered tha mary Amelia died in November 1842 and was buried in Madras.
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Hi
Ive just had a good look at the discharge papers for Archibald, and it says that he was Court Martialled one time during his service.
it also says that there is a full report with the discharge papers - does anyone know how I can see that?
I got the other records from Find my Past, thanks to a link from Tara.
It also says he was in receipt of four good conduct badges, which seems at odds with a court martial.
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Hi Maggie,
I can only suggest that you pose this question on the military board and link it to this thread.
Some of the people on that board are fab with all things military !
Tara
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Thanks tara
Im still getting the hang of this site -dont know all the boards yet!! ::)
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Hi Cuz,
My great grandfather is also Archibald Allen (1832), I am trying to fill in more detail on him and his line.
My line is Archibald => Son Lancelot Allen (1893-1957) => Elizabeth Allen (Stapleton) (1928-2002), my mother.
Regards
(*)
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Hi Maggie,
My grandfather was married to a Sarah, Died in 1965
Regards
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Hi Maggie,
My mum married Billy Stapleton from Dalkey
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Hi Stapoji
Ive only just gotten these messages - dont know why, because Im still a member
Anyway, I think Iv already met Jean Stapleton at a reunion, and I guess there is only one Jean Stapleton?????
Ive also met Harry Allen and Elizabeth
My maiden name was Molloy
Sine I was on last I have'nt found out anything much, but I think Archibalds mother was Elizabeth Gethings, and Gethings owned a shop in Bray on the Florence Road, and the fact that Amelia (Millie) married a Collins from Castle |street, Bray sort of ties in, as in they were probably all couysins. Its Catherin (Archibalds wife) who is the biggest problem - we dont know who her parents were, so cant track her down.
Keep in touch
Maggie
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Maggie,
Jean is my sister and Elizabeth my cousin. Harry (Elizabeth's husband is a completely different Allen family (Going to cause some confusion in the future)
I have found a record saying a Catherine Byrne was born in Bray on 4 Jun 1860 to a Denis and Ellen
I can send you the link and image if you want
Regards
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Welcome to RootsChat stapojj
Please do not publish your email address as this is how spammers pick up on your details, if you wish to pass on sensitive information you are better to do this by a PM.
Regards
Sarah
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On William's birth in 1879 Archibold is a Coachman, registered Dublin North
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02920/2069850.pdf
By the time of Lancelot's birth he is a Fishmonger, registered Rathdown 1893
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02317/1868183.pdf
You can look for the other births here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
To follow the family's movements.
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Thats funny,
I remember my Mum saying her dad (Lancelot Allen, son of "Archie") was a driver for a well to do family near Killiney, so the "driving" stayed in the family
I have expanded the tree quite a lot.
John
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Was this child found before?
Robert 1876 Rathdown born Dec 75
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03025/2108633.pdf
This would push the marriage back to 1875/74.
Address Glasthule would place them in the Monkstown area.
Edited to add, Shane found this in reply #14
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I have Catherines DOB as 1860 (from declaration in 1901 census), so...
1876 makes her 16
mmmm.
Robert is not on my list of children, I will ask Jean if she knows
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I'm not seeing a RC baptism for Robert
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0522
And they don't have marriages.
The Glasthule marriages come under Ballybrack
Of course if the married COI it won't be there.
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0505
No I can't see a marriage there.
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In 1911 Catherine says she had 14 children 9 living.
It would be good idea to work out how many children have been found so far.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Killiney/Ballybrack/96550/
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Not finished this list just posting in case I lose it. 2 to find
Robert, 1876, 12 Adelaide Road, father Servant
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03025/2108633.pdf
William, in Census 1879 Micklenbugh? St father Coachman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02920/2069850.pdf
Elizabeth, in Census 1881 Micklenbugh? St. father Servant (William had same error on father's name corrected)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02830/2037565.pdf
Archibold 1882 Kanis Court father Coachman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02750/2010373.pdf
Unknown 1884 Think it's Micklen etc street again father Coachman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02703/1995291.pdf
Kate (Catherine), in Census, 1885 Moreland Place, father Coachman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02626/1968910.pdf
Ameila, in Census, registered as Unknown 1887 born in Dublin but address Ballylack, father Coachman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02561/1947276.pdf
Frances, in Census, 1888 Ballylack, father Labourer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02507/1929659.pdf
Benjamin, in Census, 1890 Ballylack father Tradesman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02432/1905557.pdf
Louisa, in Census, 1891 Ballylack, father Fishmonger
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02370/1884956.pdf
Lancelot, in Census 1893 Ballylack, father Fishmonger
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02317/1868183.pdf
James, in Census. 1896 Ballylack father Hawker
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02174/1823384.pdf
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Hi
Sorry only just got in
Had to go to Dublin for g/daughters birthday
Yep would be delighted to get the link
I am delighted to meet you, Jeans brother!!!
Will u be at next re-union (whenever that is)?
Maggie
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Hi Sarah
Thanks for the warning but I meant John to PM me
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Thanks to everyone who has posted
Sinann
The list you compiled is the list I have
James was my grandfather - he married Mary Plunkett from Killeigh, Co Offaly, which is where my mother was born
Strangely enough, one of the modern Allens, Benny married a girl from Tullamore as well
Maggie
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Have you got the two I'm missing?
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Hi Sinann
No
Ive just counted your list and realised that you have an unknown birth which I missed
Ive only ever had 11names
Maggie
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Also if its any help they lived in Mecklenburgh Street, in Dublin and most of the children were baptised in Pro-Cathedral
I think they way they did it was that the girls were baptised Catholic, and the boys COI, as Archibald was COI
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I was having trouble with that street name but didn't want to take the time to check it.
Between Robert and William seems the most likely for the missing children but they could be living in the city or county so it's harder to search.
What dates were on Archibald's army record?
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I'll have a look tomorrow Sinann and let you know
Im knackered - just back from Dublin
Maggie