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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: drobbo on Tuesday 28 August 12 19:30 BST (UK)
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Dear Listers
I'm trying to trace a great Uncle (served in the Berkshire & Wiltshire Regiment - 38552) who was killed in action in WW1 near Passchendaele
My father has received information about the battle and the date George was killed (2/12/1917)
We're planning a trip next year and hope to see the exact spot where he fell but we're struggling to find the location on the current Google maps. It could of course be that the location/(farm we believe) where he was killed is no longer in existence but other than asking for a local map from the tourist office in Passchedaele I wondered if there was a better way of trying to locate the area so we can visit?
It appears the location was just north east of Passchendaele between Exert Farm and Wrath Farm.....and from the map kindly provided by the Rifles Museum the main road from Westroosebeke and Passchendaele running in a South South East Direction was where most of the heavy action took place
Help please!
DRobbo
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Hi
Have you seen this from www.cwgc.org
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/837012/HOLMAN,%20GEORGE%20ALBERT
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Yes thanks Carole
I have the death certificate and had access to the site you provided.
We plan to visit the memorial but trying to find and visit the exact site of battle ....
Thanks for your help though
DRobbo
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HOLMAN, GEORGE ALBERT Private 38552 01/12/1917 19 Royal Berkshire Regiment United Kingdom Panel 105 to 106 and 162. TYNE COT MEMORIAL
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Thanks Genechaser -- I'm actually trying to trace the place he fell in action not where he is buried...thanks for your reply though
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you can see Wrath farm on this contemporary map..north east,,as you said of Passchendale.
http://www.polygonwood.com/Photos/WIA%20Passchedale%20Offensive_resize.jpg
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Look top right,,,look for large letter w,,,then just above the large number 25. ;)
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hope this of some use
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Brilliant - thanks very much.....
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Both farms are still visible on Google Earth
Exert 50 54 12 76N 3 01 37 14E
Wrath 50 54 37 36N 3 01 48 62E
Eddie
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TNA Trench Maps overlayed google maps
Eddie
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Thanks eddieR
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Dear Listers
I'm back on the trail and trying to find out more about how George was killed.
Does anyone know more about the 2nd Battalion Royal Berkshire in 1917?
I've ordered a book about their movements but from what I can gather the main battle has been fought by Canadian troops and finished end of Nov and I'm intrigued as to why/how the Royal Berkshire's became involved after the main battle had finished?
Any help appreciated
DRobbo
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Drobbo,
At the end of the battle for Passchendaele in November '17, the British held a salient in the German line. It was about 3,000 yds deep but only 1,000 yards wide. Moreover, the Germans occupied most of the high ground and could observe everything the British were up to. Field Marshall Haig was preparing a major offensive around Cambrai, but he agreed that an effort should be made to widen the salient and to gain positions on the Passchendaele Ridge which would disrupt enemy observation of the British positions while at the same time affording observation of German positions in the valley on the far side of the ridge.
By this time, the Canadians had been withdrawn to be replaced by UK regiments, 2 Royal Berkshires among them.
In order to try and suprise the Germans, the attack was to be at night, three days after the full moon. This way, our troops would have enough light to form up and stay on the right course as they made their way forward. No-one seemed to realise, at British HQ, that bodies of troops moving in the moonlight could be seen by the Germans. The result was the attack failed miserably with a lot of casualties.
From what you say in your opening post, it would seem possible that your great uncle was involved in the effort to take the Southern Redoubt, a heavily fortified position on the opposite rise to Exert Farm. The Berkshires jumped off at 1.55 on the morning of 2nd December without there being a preliminary artillery bombardment. The artillery were not to open fire until three minutes past two so that our troops would be able to descend upon the enemy forward positions without them being given prior warning of the attack. Unfortunately the Germans had seen what was going on and the element of suprise was lost. In addition, a German pill box, which the British Command thought was in our hands, was still very much in the possession of the Germans and this opened fire on our troops before they had got very far. A number of the Berkshires managed to reach the Southern Redoubt and take it after a bitter fight which incurred a lot of casualties. Because the suprise element was lost, the Lincolnshires who were next to the Berkshires, were unable to make all of their objectives which left the Berkshires somewhat exposed to a German counter attack on the redoubt which, after another hard fight, they re-captured except for a small area in the southern corner, where the remaining Berkshires dug in. There they remained until their commanding officer pulled them out later in the morning. They left a lot of their comrades behind.
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Drobbo,
Now for some directions.From Passchendaele, head north east on the N37 (Molenstraat) until you reach the first intersection. Turn right into Doornkoutstraat. At the second farm on your right, (about 600 yards) immediately past the farm, there is a gateway on the right. Stand in the gateway and face NE. The field you are standing in is pretty much the site of the Southern Redoubt. I hope this will bring you close to the spot where George fell, but you will certainly be close to where so many of his comrades died.
Best of luck, it's nice to know that one of our boys is not forgotten.
Sharki.
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Thank you very much Sharki - very helpful indeed
Drobbo
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Dear Sharki - sorry meant to have added that my father & I recently visited to Imperial War Museum and were told that by appointment it is possible to review the diaries of the regiments and if one exists personal diaries of servicemen.
In your experience would this be an idea also to try to find out more about George's last few days building on the excellent account you have provided? Sorry to ask I just wondered whether this would be an idea as you seem to have a lot of information about the battle George got caught up in.
My father wrote to the Royal Berkshire Regiment and they provided him with some very useful maps + information but not as detailed as your account - they inferred that George was possibly caught up in a 'skirmish' - maybe linked your summary?
Any pointers much appreciated
Drobbo
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Drobo,
A look at the war diaries of 2 Berks may very well give you more precise information. Be aware though that with high casualty rates, individual names of, particularly Other Ranks, may not be noted down. In those war diaries I have seen in reference to these situations the usual format is something along these lines, "battalion attacked strong points opposite our front. 4 officers and 17 O/R's killed, 5 O/Rs wounded and 3 missing"
A personal diary may well give details such as which company the diarist was in, possibly even which platoon. It may also give his location at some point.
On the web, you may wish to refer to a treatise written on the attack entitled "Moonlight Massacre".
It is rather long and is quite detailed but does not mention individual soldiers by name as a general rule. I will try to find this treatise myself and pass you the link but it may take a while.
Skirmishes frequently occured all along the front line. Both sides would send out patrols at night
to gain intelligence in the local area, to perhaps try and snatch a prisoner or two or just to keep the enemy jumpy. Sometimes these patrols would encounter each other in no-man's land or they may stumble upon an unsuspected enemy position, perhaps a listening post or forward observation post, in such cases a brief exchange of fire would ensue, usually with both sides suffering casualties.
Best Wishes,
Sharki
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Drobo,
Unable to find a link that works but, if you type in the following on your server it should take you to it.
Battle of Passchendaele, 2nd December 1917.
Click on "A Moonlight Massacre" which should get you there.
Best of Luck,
Sharki.
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Thank you again Sharki - I will give it a try....
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The link to the thesis is http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/3188/2/LoCicero11PhD1.pdf
Thanks Sharki - an interesting read.
For a 2nd Berks viewpoint you can read the war diary on the museum website - http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/research/war-diaries/search
A decent account of the 2nd Berks in the action can be found in http://www.purley.eu/RBR3272.pdf
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Thanks Sharki
I downloaded the document written by Michael Lo Cicero and also noticed he had a document with other appendices with maps etc....your additional links are also very helpful.
Thanks once again
DRobbo
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Sharki
Just to say thanks again for your information. As a result I have made contact with the author of Midnight Massacre and he is speaking to my father later today to see if he can share information about the battle.
Drobbo
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Drobo,
That's great, I hope your dad finds more information. Glad to have helpedin some way,
Best Regards,
Sharki.