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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: MaggieK on Monday 27 August 12 19:39 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Am looking into the Heron family, I have a Henry Heron (born about 1843 in Scotland) who married Mary Simpson (born abt 1847), a daughter called Alice Simpson/Heron born abt 1869 Troqueer, Kirkcudbrightshire, she married a Baptiste Alphonse Caroen (know nothing about him) poss married in Berwick on Tweed, not sure of dob, who died before 1856. Alice then married a Patrick Rowan in 1891.
Any info on the above would be helpful. Especially if it involves dob, marriage dates, children etc.
Thanks for any help
Maggie
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According to an Ancestral file on the LDS Familysearch site, Henry Heron was born in 1843 at Maxwelltown, Kirkcudbrightshire. Mary Simpson was born in 1847, also in Maxwelltown. Alice Heron born 1869 or 1870 Maxwelltown.
Alice married Patrick on 30th Jan 1891 in Maxwelltown.
They had 4 children....
Isabella born about 1889 Dumfries
Patrick born 17th Mar 1892 Maxwelltown
John born 22nd Sept 1893 Maxwelltown
Alice born 21st July 1895 Maxwelltown. Died on 30 Jan 1934 Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Burial was on 1 Feb 1934 Burnsland Cemetery, Lot 48, Block 13, Section H, Calgary
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MCC6-WPW
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Hi,
My great grandfather was Jean Baptiste Alphonse Caroen, whom I believe was married to one of the persons you mention. I believe he was an itinerant philanderer who fathered twelve children around Scotland. Whether he was legally married to any of his wives I am unsure. His name changed frequently to various combinations of the above name. The only time I can trace him on a census is in1891, when the lodging house keeper in Hamilton registered his name as a lodger. I've only just started researching this side of the family and it's opened up a Pandora's box of surprises. I this line is of interest to you drop me a line.
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Hi there and welcome to RootsChat :)
There is one marriage showing for Jean BAPTASTE A Caroen. He is showing as having married a Janet Browning Morrison in 1891 in the Partick area of Glasgow.
You can view the image of the marriage reg here www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Monica
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A possible death cert for Jean Baptiste in Cupar Angus. Death showing in 1922, aged 63. Have you viewed this? This could let you confirm wife/ves' names hopefully.
Can't easily see a Scottish death on the indexes for Janet Morrison/Caroen.
Could this be a son to them? Emigrated to the US in 1910, died at the age of 102. www.findagrave.com/memorial/11124040 From his WW2 draft card, he gave his birth place as Glasgow. Birth not yet jumping out for me.
Which of his children are you descended from?
Monica
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How many marriages do you think he had? His name is unique enough to stand out in Scotland at that time. Are these all his marriages?
1885 - Alice Simpson Heron - Berwick upon Tweed
1891 - Janet/Jessie Morrison - Glasgow
1901 - Jane Barclay - Port William
Bigamous marriages?
This looks like Janet or Jessie Morrison in 1901. All born in Glasgow:
Jessie Caroen/Morrison 36 char woman
John Caroen 8...likely the John we had moving to the US.
Maria Caroen 6
Jessie Caroen 3
Robert Caroen 3 Momths
Jeanie Morrison 57 mother
William Fitzsimons 35 border
Mary Fitzsimons 26
James Fitzsimons 22 Months
Address: 11 George St, Glasgow/ Blackfriars
Monica
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Alice looks to have had two daughters with Jean Baptiste and then married Patrick Rowan in 1891. I wonder what she showed on her marriage registration to Patrick.
The daughters with Jean Baptiste show as:
Josephine CAROEN 1887 in Dumfries
Isabella CAROEN 1889 in Dumfries
This birth certs will also let you confirm marriage details for parents as additional corrobaration of the 1885 marriage.
Havem't found them yet in 1891.
Monica
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Hi again,
In relation to Monica L's message: my great grandmother, Janet Browning Morrison (or Caroen), eventually became Janet Rigby - husband John Rigby - if they were ever married! He died in 1942, she died in 1951 and both are buried in Dumbarton Cemetery. I visited the grave two days ago for the first time. My grandfather was Janet's son by Caroen namely Robert Gibson Morrison Caroen later known as Rigby. She had four children by Caroen.
I have found birth certificates online for twelve children fathered by old Caroen - two in the Dumfries area by Alice Simpson, four by my great gran in the Glasgow area and six by Jane Barclay in the Dundee area. Jean Baptiste died in 1922 in Cupar as stated, supposedly aged 63 - after a very busy life - no further comment!
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Certainly a rogue with the women who came into his life ::)
Janet Morrison did marry John Rigby. The marriage entry shows as:
John RIGBY and Jessie MORRISON
1936
644/8 1189
Blythswood Glasgow
The three marriages I mentioned ealier are also on the official registers for you to check. The English marriage to Alice would need to be ordered, the others you can view online on Scotlands People.
Monica
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Have you followed up on possible Poor Relief Applications for Jessie and her children? Worth checking whether there are records for the family at the Mitchell Library. Glasgow poor relief records are some of the best kept. If you are lucky to find some, they would likely give you a lot of background info you are not likely to find elsewhere.
Monica
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What a mixture of women and children!
1901 census has Jean with his new wife, Jane Barclay, down in Wigtowshire...not too far from his wife Alice who by now is married to Peter Rowan (in 1891). Missing in the Rowan household in the 1901 census is eldest daughter from Alice's marriage to Jean...that is because Josephine is showing with her father and new wife ;D Confusing for sure!
Peter Barclay 54 China merchant b. Stevenson, Ayrshire
Elizabeth T Barclay 58 wife b. Ireland
John Carven 33 pedlar b. Subj), France (Nat Brit)
Jane Carven/Barclay 21 daughter
Josephine Carven 13 niece b. Dumfries...daughter with Alice
Peter Carven 11 Months nephew b. Dundee
Adam Gilcher 67 pedlar b. Subj), Germany (Ger)
Address: Ship Inn, Mochrum, Wigtownshire
1911, you would think the family would be in the Edinburgh area with the death of son Noel in Feb 1911 and the birth of daughter Isabella in Sept 1911 there.
Monica
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Hi Monica L,
Thanks for the info on the marriages - just hadn't got that far. Also forgot my great granny was also called Jessie. You say she is listed as a charwoman? Family story was she came from a well-to-do background, but that she was also fond of the bottle. (Maybe wishful thinking?) She purchased a fairly large headstone for her husband, John Rigby, also with a dedication to her late father in Dumbarton Cemetery. I actually have the receipt!
Good suggestion about the Poor Relief Applications, which are a new source to me. This could be very relevant as the family stories suggest that only my grandfather, Robert, was kept by my great granny when she took up with John Rigby, and the rest of the children were put into care. I'll follow this up when I can - don't like Glasgow's attitude to drivers! As I mentioned, I'm just starting out on this research and it looks like a lengthy process.
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This might be him to down in Dover, England
Freebdm
Marriages Dec 1893
Carion Jean Baptiste Dover 2a 1954
Spouse
Baudoux Alexina Ghislaine Dover 2a 1954
modified: Jean Baptiste Carion seems to be a common name in england so perhaps not? This one was born 1871 in Luttre, Belgium https://gw.geneanet.org/bouchris?lang=en&iz=53&p=jean+baptiste&n=carion&oc=11
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"At the Maryhill Police Court to-day, a Frenchman named Jean Baptiste Alphonso Caroen (29), a hawker, of no fixed residence, will be formally reminted to the Sheriff charged with bigamy."
Saturday 19 September 1896, Glasgow Herald, Lanarkshire, Scotland
((So born about 1867?))
"A Frenchman named Jean Baptiste Alphonse Caroen was charged with having, on ?th July, in the Roman Catholic Chapel, Main Street, Maryhill, being the husband of Janet Browning Caroen, 24 Fernie Street, bigamously married ..."
Saturday 26 September 1896, Glasgow Herald, Lanarkshire, Scotland
((He tried to marry someone in 1896?? Who, you'd need to join British newspaper archives to find out?? You get 3 free pages just for joining)
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
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To whiteout7
It's quite possible he married again in 1893. I t seems he was keen to marry but maybe never got round to divorces or annulments. There was a hiatus in the births at that point, although he continued to have children by Jane Barclay. He had 3 children born in the years 1900, 1901 and 1905 to Jane Barclay in Dundee and 1 to Janet Morrison in 1900 (my grandfather).
Great find in discovering the law caught up with him eventually!
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I can see the two children of Alice Simpson being baptised as Catholics
CAROEN, JOSEPHINA
BAPTIST ALX CAROEN/ALICE SIMPSON
20/10/1887
13/11/1887
Dumfries, St Andrew's
CAROEN, ISABELLA
ALFONSA CAROEN/ALICE SIMPSON
22/9/1889
3/10/1889
Dumfries, St Andrew's
((His name has changed between the two baptisms))
Yes Caroen, wonder who found him out and if there are police records .......
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:o Yep another marriage (great find whiteout!)
You can view the Glasgow Herald for free here https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC&dat=18960919&printsec=frontpage&hl=en The story is on Page 3 - last column.
Clip below.
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From the Glasgow Herald Saturday, September 26, 1896
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He obviously kept a low profile from 1896 onwards...given he went on to marry Jane Barclay in 1900 8)
Couldn't see anything further for him in the Glasgow papers. This is the main google link for the Glasgow Herald https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC You can also searcht on the British Newspapers Archives site at www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk However, from what we have, he moved on to Dundee and a spell in Edinburgh and back to Dundee thereafter till his death?
Monica
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Hi again,
Although my grandfather was born in 1901 to Janet (Jessie) Morrison, Caroen had already moved on to Jane Barclay in Dundee and had a child. This still leaves the marriage to Alexina Ghislaine Baudoux in Dover in 1893? I agree that he seemed to settle with Janet Barclay after that - or maybe he just stopped marrying other women having been convicted of bigamy?
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This is the marriage entry on the registers that led to him being prosecuted:
John Louis Ford and Ellen Hamilton, 1896 in Maryhill Glasgow ref 622/1 147
Not sure if it the same Jean Baptiste who married in 1893. All the activity that we have seen so far for JBA has been in Scotland. Whiteout also posted a link that confirms I think that it is not your Jean Baptiste but one born later in Belgium.
Monica
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... I agree that he seemed to settle with Janet Barclay after that - or maybe he just stopped marrying other women having been convicted of bigamy?
The 1900 marriage to Jane Barclay would also have been bigamous. I am not clear on the laws around bigamy to be honest. I wonder when Alice Simpson Heron died?
Monica
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If you haven't come across it already, this is your Robert's elder brother John Morrison Caroen's obit following his death at the age of 102 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9VT-H45T?i=1642&cc=2215693
Some further details are available on Family Search for him and possibly a sister Marion (we have her as Maria on the 1901 census) born 1894-5 who also shows as emigrating to the US about the same time as John.
Monica
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Hi,
I have just came across this thread after looking into my own family tree. Well before I was born, my fathers family changed their surname from Caroen, and families being families, the only explanation I knew of was that "it was something to do with a distant uncle or male relative".
I have been able to trace back to a Peter Alphonse Caroen Born 1900 marrying a Mary Jane McIntyre in 1929, Kircaldy. I looked into Peter's birth certificate to expand the family tree further, and noticed that his parents are listed as Jeanie Caroen (Barclay) and John (something beginning with B but is illegible) Caroen who was deceased at the time of this marriage.
Could this John Caroen be the Jean Baptise Caroen who married Jean Barclay in the Dundee area as it would appear he did change his name? I cannot find a death certificate for him, but it would tie in with a previous post that said he died in 1922, therefore deceased at the time of his sons wedding in 1929. On this same certificate, the witness appeared to be a Maria Alfonse Caroen/Brown, possibly a sibling of Peter and daughter of Jean and John?