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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: the pretender on Saturday 25 August 12 16:17 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am trying to trace my Grandfathers war record but unfortunately know so little. He was (I believe) in the Royal Horse Artillery and stayed on after victory with the occupation army. Guess he was done by 1921 as he married in West Green, London in that year and moved back to Scotland with his new wife. He finished as a Lieutenant and that is all I know. Not really enough to stand a good chance of getting some info on his record and thats before the Germans bombed the records in WW2. Have attached two photos of him in uniform in the hope that the knowledgeable can gleam some information from his uniform which is beyond my capabilities. His name was Alexander Thomas Duncan, b. 6/10/1889 in Fala, Scotland.
I would be grateful if knowledgeable people could pass on information to me, eg regimental badge etc from these photos.
Stayed with him when young teenager while parents lived in remote Scotland and wish to do him justice on the family tree as he was a big influence on me.
Thanks, Alan.
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Certainly an officer of the Royal Artillery, but hard to say if RHA or RFA.
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I could not see a medal index card for him with those names in either the National Archives or Ancestry. Could he have lived at Tooting after the war when he claimed his medals?
Officers' records were not affected by the blitz and may still be at TNA, but many there have been pruned. Someone with better knowledge may come along to advise.
It is possible that your man did not serve in an active war zone and so was not entitled to medals.
PS
I have just looked at the photo of him on the horse and there seem to be medal ribbons, so any more information would help.
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Found a Medal Index Card for A T Duncan Royal Engineers, Sapper, 78453
Royal Garrison Artilllery, and Royal Corps of Signals.2nd Lt
Medals Victory,BWM and 15 Star entered France 15/9/15
A contact address as 11 Waverley Crescent Stirling
Is this your man
Eddie
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Well spotted. An officer in RGA would wear similar badges etc.
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Also found London Marraige 4th Oct 1921 to Florence Fisher Christ Church West Green Grooms father retired Schoolmaster James Duncan ( ties in with 1891 census in Fala).Alexander was a Post Office worker and his address given as 26 James Street Stirling
Eddie
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The medal card shows he entered France when still a Sapper, as the '15 Star is on the RE roll. He probably had some officer training in UK? His commission should be reported in the London Gazette, and his transfer to Royal Signals, too, but it is famously hard to search.
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British Postal Appointment Book Aug 1908 Alexander T Duncan in Stirling appointed as
SC & J(could be a T) Dont know what the acronym stands for. Could be the reason he was transferred to the Signals
Eddie
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Brilliant, my thanks to everyone.
Yes he did live at James Street, Stirling and 11 Waverley Crescent so you have the right man.
Did stay on in the occupation army after war family gossip said, maybe did some admin in London before he was discharged. He would obviously have to have had some time in London or he would not have met my grandmother who stayed near West Green. Tooting possible but it is South of the River, dont know how he met my grandmother but she was partially blind from her twenties.
He did work for the Post Office and worked in the telegraph office to begin with, finished as deputy head of PO in Stirling. Thought he was a Lieutenant through family info (all now deceased) but was not sure.
Many thanks again, now much more I can put on his tree as fact and not just rumour or speculation.
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The Tooting connection was the wrong man, a possibility before Eddie delivered the goods.
Alexander may have been promoted to Lieutenant after the armistice, and this would not show on the medal card. You would need the Gazette or his service record to find the date of promotion.
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Both photographs were taken when he was still a 2nd Lieutenant (one pip and one band around the cuff). If you have any other photos check for two pips and one band for a Lieutenant.
Eddie
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British Postal Appointment Book Aug 1908 Alexander T Duncan in Stirling appointed as
SC & J(could be a T) Dont know what the acronym stands for. Could be the reason he was transferred to the Signals
Eddie
SC & T stands for Sorting Clerk and Telegraphist, think you are correct in your assumptions and the Telephone/Telegraph experience was in demand.
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Good evening,
I think if you look closely at his right sleeve, 2nd photo, he has two pips.
John915
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Has he only one pip on his shoulder?
Eddie
Forget the above
Have read somewhere its either cuffs or shoulder not both
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Good evening,
Having looked closely at both photo's again there are acouple of anomaly's.
In photo 1 he is definately a 2nd Lt, 1 pip and one stripe around the cuff. He is not showing any medal ribbons even though the 15 star had been awarded, (medals weren't actually issued until after the war)
In photo 2 he is now a Lt, 2 pips and 1 stripe around the cuff. He is now showing 2 medal ribbons but there should be 3, they don't go far enough across the pocket for 3. So taken post war but when. Cuff rank badges for officers were abolished in 1920 when they moved to the shoulder. All medals had been issued by then and, mostly, applied for by the recipients.
This begs the question, are both photo's actually the same man. It's difficult to tell as photo 1 has been enhanced by someone. Much as the experts do here on rootschat.
John915
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His medal card pages has a notation " EF9 rcvd 17/12/22" which I am advised is the document officers used to apply for their medals. Also a notation against the
Victory,BWM and 15 Star "IV.X/4647 df 1/2/23. EF/1/4968
Would this indicate that he would not have had his medals and ribbons until early 1923?
Eddie
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IV.X/4647 df 1/2/23. EF/1/4968
Hi Eddie
Should be IV X/4647 dd 1/2/23. EF/1/4968 where IV is Issue Voucher. X/4647 is the reference of the issue voucher. I have been researching IV and I do not believe that any examples survive. But using something like the Silver War Badge records you can see that each IV contained circa 50-60 entries. Of course the Medal Office may have used a different design of IVs.
Medals and SWB were sent by registered letter and the handling was carefully recorded. If a medal was returned for say re-naming, or was undelivered it was recorded on a CRV - Certified Receipt Voucher.
'dd' is as you say 'dated'. Two, inch long lengths of each ribbon was sent out before the medals for sewing onto tunics. For Other Ranks (who did not have to claim their medals) this would happen about two months before they received their medals. For officers it was probably less (or they may have received them all together) as the time from receipt of EF9 to IV being raised was, as in your case, usually about six weeks.
EF/1/4968 is a reference of a type that appears throughout military records of the period. But I have not seen an explanation of how they worked.
Ken
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If as according to his MIC he did not apply for his medals until Dec 1922 (EF9 rcvd 17/12/22)
and Cuff Ranks were abolished in 1920 for Shoulder Ranks, the mounted officer wearing medal ribbons and Cuff Ranks could not be the officer in photo 1.
If he continued his service in the Royal Signals Corp and was promoted to Lt, why is the mounted Lt wearing a cap badge of an Artillery Regiment, would it not be the Royal Engineers.
I think its is two different officers.
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Good evening,
Eddie, I'm with you on this one, it's two different officers but we need Alan to come back and confirm or deny this point. If it's not the same man then who is it, did the grandfather have a brother or cousin with similar looks. More importantly, a similar career and rank but not entitled to one of the 3 medals, most likely the 15 star.
John915
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There is an Alexander Thomas Duncan, RGA (Special Reserve) in WO 338, which equates with this service record held at Kew in WO 339/105860. Long Number = 198342.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0qly/
Phil
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A couple of LG entries that confirm the link between the RGA and Army Signals Service:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31629/supplements/13514
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31787/supplements/2049
Also confirm he rose to Lieutenant.
Phil