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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: startt on Thursday 23 August 12 15:38 BST (UK)
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This may not be the correct word for the case of Patrick Percival Wilkinson Sands born January 27th 1915 to Winifred Hannah Sands nee Brown at 57 Cambridge Gardens,Kensington,London. Winifred died in 1918 during the flu epidemic. The father Percival Wilkinson Sands is in the Army at the time of her death. The father now a widower remarries in 1920 and dies in 1954. Yet when the son marries in 1940 he says his father is dead. Possibly the son was taken in by his mothers parents. My question is as no one new of his existence and he was totally unaware who his father was would it have been official and what form would it have taken.
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Hi
There was no legal adoption process until 1927. 'Adoptions' before that were usually informal.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you that would explain the absence of paperwork.
It was just on "Who do you think you are", last night they mentioned an official form regarding the transfer of a child from mother to another in 1908.
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Hi
The 1908 Children's Act established the registration of foster parents. It was designed in part to regulate 'baby farming'.
http://www.childrenwebmag.com/articles/child-care-history/‘the-hope-is-in-children-the-times-671908
Regards
Valda
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Hi I was hoping you might be able to give me some more information about Patrick Percival Wilkinson-Sands as tonight I have just discovered he is my uncle. My Grandfather was Percival Wilkinson-Sands and he kept Patrick a secret all his life and even my father didn't know the true name of his half brother and only knew he had such a brother after his father had passed away. I would like to find out if Patrick had another brother as there was a rumor that maybe there were 2 sons from my grandfather's first marriage. Also I would love to know if Patrick is still alive as I can't find many records about him. Any help would be much appreciated.
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Welcome to Rootschat.I expect your aware that Patrick P W Sands left Liverpool aboard The Caledonia with his wife and daughter for Karachi Pakistan in 1954?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Yes I did but it was for his career in the RAF. He also went to the US. Last records I could find were of him living in Iver and married to Betty. It's a small world because when it shows him living in Iver my mother was at school there not far from his house.
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Winifred's name was in fact BROWNE, per the 1914 marriage.
(although her birth was registered as BROWN in Kensington in 1895)
Patrick (actually born Percival P Sands 1915) was the only birth with the surnames Sands-BROWNE and there was only one Sands-BROWN birth before 1918, Lilian in Dartford (without the initial W).
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Hm, you give the surname as Wilkinson-Sands, silversands. The GRO index shows only three entries for that surname:
a death in 1940 of someone born c1912: Robin J Wilkinson-Sands
a birth in 1940
a marriage in 1951.
The person who died in 1940 in Tenterden district in Kent could have been born Robin J White to an unmarried Ms. White, in Axminster district ... and possibly adopted his father's surname?? No other Robin J to match, but maybe he swapped his names too ...
The person who died in 1940 had married in 1939 as Robin J W Sands and in fact the 1940 birth was to that marriage.
Oh my goodness yes indeed!
http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=3393553
Wilkinson-Sands, Robin John
Cemetery: High Halden (St. Mary) Churchyard
Country: England
Area: Kent
Rank: Captain
Official Number: 85852
Unit: Royal Army Service Corps.
Force: Army
Nationality: British
Details:
19th July 1940. Age 28. Son of Percival and Winifred Hannah Wilkinson-Sands; husband of Margaret Wilkinson-Sands of Upper Norwood Surrey. N.E. of church in new part.
That leaves the birth unaccounted for still, and the age given makes the birth two years before the Sands-Browne marriage ...
And it was his widow who remarried in 1951, and seems to have another child.
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More details of Patrick up to 1958 here
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Robin-Tingle/1021510296
from someone else? looking for him.
Photo of Robin's grave here:
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/286273/24479085
and comments can be left.
At the age of 18, Robin's child adopted the stepfather's surname:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/41502/pages/5789
and appears to have married and remarried.
I will send you some contact info.
Oops, silversands, you need to make one more post here before you can receive private messages. Just post a reply saying hello!
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Just a side note re the surname.
Percival Sands WILKINSON was born in Islington in 1892. He appears by that surname in censuses.
His brother was Challinor Sands Wilkinson, who married twice as Chaloner W Sands and died in 1954. There were births to both marriages, in case you wanted to follow up Percival's brother's family. There is a reference to Chaloner's 1929 bankruptcy in Hertfordshire here:
http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/14592/pages/1230/page.pdf
and to his son as executor of perhaps his maternal aunt here:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/52852/pages/3943/page.pdf
His mother was Edith Emma Sands who married Frederick James Wilkinson in 1890 and was widowed by 1901, and she and her children lived with her parents. I wonder whether she was really widowed, or estranged and Percival took her surname. Frederick J Wilkinson was a post office clerk in 1891, born in Stoke on Trent c 1861.
Hm, I had discarded the FJ Wilkinson who died in Luton in 1899 aged 40, since he matched a birth there in 1858, and that doesn't match the info in the 1891 census. But according to trees at Ancestry that is the one, husband of Edith Emma Sands and son of Allen Wilkinson and Eliza Challinor ... a marriage that actually happened in Stoke on Trent, sigh. (The Luton one married someone else altogether.)
No birth of a Robin Wilkinson to fit either though. ;)
Much of this may well be known, I've just been poking at it to try to find some clue about Robin and nothing has emerged.
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My goodness!! There was talk of a child out of wedlock but thought it was further back in history as to confuse matters the official name should be Sands-Wilkinson not Wilkinson-Sands. My great grandmother changed it unofficially when her husband vanished. This information is amazing that you have found. Thank you!!
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Thanks Janeycanuck ... do you have any more info about Edith Emma Sands? I'm on Ansestry too but my tree has got a bit confused with her side of the family (probably because of the name change). I'd like to trace who her parents/grandparents were.
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John Sands b. 1-7-1833 Bethnel Green. m. Eliza Ann Sharp b.1831 East Malling. d.mar 1912.
m. 26-6-1862 St.George Hanover child Edith Emma Sands b.2-8-1863 Kensington Bayswater.
d. Luton. m.15-6-1890 St.George,Hanover
1891 census 7 Lysander Grove.
1901 widow with father and mother 4 Chester Place Mews St.George,Hanover Sq.
with Percivel and Challoner
1911 independent means 53 Chelsea Gardens SW with mother,Percivel 7 Challoner
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Thanks Startt ... can I ask where you found the original information about Patrick and being adopted? Who raised him after my grandfather?
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I think that's the big question, silversands!
(Later today I'll put together the info I mentioned and send it to you both.)
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Thanks Janey that will be great
Nick
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Hi startt & silversands
I'm pleased to see that contact between you has been made between you.
As janeycanuck is corresponding with you off-forum and we don't know what the contents of those messages are, I'll move this post to the 'completed' part of the London & Middlesex boards to prevent duplication of effort.
Your topic won't be deleted, so if anyone else finds the topic in future via a search engine, they can still make contact with you.
Regards
Dawn
(Moderator for London & Middlesex)
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Thank you dawnsh - I had mentioned on the previous page I had found current contact info for the family of the rumoured brother, and that is what was sent, so yes, with the two posters here now in contact too, that seems to be full circle!
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Hi
I understand Jayne Heather Bustard (Was Wilkinson Sands) now unknown was Robin J Wilkinson Sands daughter, we in High Halden are looking for relatives of Robin to notify that his name will be going on a war memorial in High Halden. Any information to help me track Jayne and her family would be gratefully recieved
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Hi.. I am a half nephew of Robin so it would appear even though my father didn't know his 2 half brothers. I have some contact details for family members who I have contacted once before but were a bit shocked when I spoke to them. Feel free to email me. Nick Sands (my grandfather was Percival Wilkinson-Sands)
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Thanks for your reply how can i mail you for more info, new to this
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Helena, just add one more message to this thread to make a total of 3 messages, and you will be able to communicate with silversands by private message, by clicking on the (green or white) page thing under his name by his message.
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Hi
Robin died at Kench Hill war hospital in Kent, reasons for death is unknown. He worked at Harbourne Hall during the war.
Does any one know the cause of Robin's death and any information about his role during the war
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Hi,
The cause of his death and his occupation will be shown on his death certificate:
Robin JW Sands SeptQ 1940 Tenterden 2a 2556
Certificates cost £9.25 and can be ordered from GRO:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Nanny Jan
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Deleted
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Deleted; names now removed from posting.
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deleted because it was info I had posted a long time ago about the CWGC record; this is the link:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2361778/WILKINSON-SANDS,%20ROBIN%20JOHN
startt -- the reason I sent you and silversands current info about the child of the first marriage by private message, back in November, is that personal info about living people should not be posted in public here. You can send that info privately but yes, you should edit your post to delete it here.
And I've just realized that I did that, and that it is what Helena is looking for, so I will send her a copy.
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I have been trying to research the war grave at St. Mary's church, High Halden of Captain Robin John Wilkinson -Sands. This is the only thread I could find.
I am curious as to his military service, cause of death, why buried at High Halden...etc
I would like permission to clean his gravestone
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Welcome to Rootschat ;D
I'll answer your last sentence first.
If the headstone is an official Commonwealth War Graves Commission memorial, then the CWGC take responsibility for their maintenance. Please contact them if you feel his memorial is neglected.
Cause of death should be given on the death certificate, see reply 24, the cost since gone up
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/faq.asp
The burial at High Halden may have been to do with his place of death.
I looked at the previous posters and the main ones have not been online here since 2014.
However, as long as their email addresses haven't been changed, they may still get an email notification to let them know you have posted and may come back.
Good luck with further research.
Dawn
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To Pluckingpheasant.
all the information regarding Robin John Wilkinson Sands is on line and covered in the earlier pages on this site. The family connection was although not uncommon was probably from Percivals early upbringing when he was taken in by his mothers family in 1899 on his fathers death. His father was a Wilkinson and his mother was a Sands. Percival died of bowel cancer 29-9-1954 in Exmouth and is buried in a village church nearby. its a very complicated family.
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Thanks Dawn.
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To Pluckingpheasant.
all the information regarding Robin John Wilkinson Sands is on line and covered in the earlier pages on this site. The family connection was although not uncommon was probably from Percivals early upbringing when he was taken in by his mothers family in 1899 on his fathers death. His father was a Wilkinson and his mother was a Sands. Percival died of bowel cancer 29-9-1954 in Exmouth and is buried in a village church nearby. its a very complicated family.
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Thank you that is very useful information. I read that he was at Kench Hill, Tenterden. Was this his birth place? Also, Harbourne Hall High Halden is mentioned as a place of work.
Definitely an interesting untangle.
Kind regards
Richard
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I would imagine south of the Thames which was the stamping ground of Percival and Robin’s father. In the great scheme of things it’s incredible that Percival ended up an Air rank and Robin a Captain. Robins wife’s second marriage was into serious money. The daughter of Robin herself married twice and died 1997. Percival the son, his daughter married well in Australia. If your interest look up Frank Bustard died 1974.
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Richard. Harbourne Hall.Historically.
In 1934 it opened as a country guest house. By April 1942 the Bank is taking the mortgagee to court for repayment of £22,000. Then in May the estate is for sale. My impression is it was taken over by the Ministry of Agriculture and used to train the Land Army, this with reference to an announcement of the many irksome war issues such as binder twine being in short supply. Which doesn’t explain Robin’s position there.
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It was a fabulous hall, unfortunately demolished in 1980. The Beresford family last lived there. They would join us on a shooting day and then invite us all back for a tipple.
http://www.lostheritage.org.uk/houses/lh_kent_harbournehall_info_gallery.html
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They said in the 1930’s it was the second best in Kent. I was surprised there wasn’t a preservation order on it. WW1 used as a hospital. Odd times around 1900 as I found before people created different names as the old Percival was a Sands.