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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => Topic started by: rainbowuk on Wednesday 22 August 12 11:15 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Was wondering if someone had access to the parish registers for Sculcoates/Hull area.
I have the birth certificate for Clement Arthur HIRONS and his parents are down as Frederick HIRONS ( Drapers van man) and Annie YATES.
They had 4 children between 1919 and 1925..the first 3 in Sculcoates district, the 4th in Hull.
I have searched the marriage indexes for any marriage that looks like a possibility ( all of England and Wales and Scotland) and have come to a blank.
I have found possible deaths for Frederick (1929) and Annie (1973) in Yorkshire.
If someone has access to the records it would be great if you could check for the years abt 1915-1919 in Sculcoates and Hull areas as wondering if it is one of those odd marriages that has been missed off the indexes for some reason.
Thanks very much,
Susan
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Hi
It's possible they never married or married in Ireland/Scotland/IOM. To search parish registers you have to know which church they married in.
If Frederick did die in 1929 - he was born approx 1891 and Annie 1892 but I can't see a 1901 entry for him
Have you found him on the 1911 census as I can't see anything in Yorkshire on the free index
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Marriage - found nothing ??? I have checked on Scotlands People and there are no marriages between Hirons - Yates between 1911-1930 I have also tried with just her name and then his name, nothing and also variants and also marriages as individuals, nothing.
There are 6 marriages for Annie Yates between 1915 - 1920 but without credits I cannot tell you who the other half is, but I do know the mans forename is not Frederick.
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I have had a look for Annie n Fred, found these possibles for Annie:
FreeBMD
Sep Q 1890 Sculcoates - Annie Elizabeth Yates
Jun Q 1892 Sculcoates - Annie Yates
From 1891 & 1901 cen info @ St Marks, Sutton, Hull - Annie Elizabeth Yates is the dau of Robert W Yates & Harriet C Carmichael
Cannot find her on following census, there is a possible marriage Annie E Yates to either George A Cameron or Henry Earish @ Hull Dec 1911
Maybe this one is yours, that is if she came from Sculcoates ??
1901 cen info @ St Peter, Sculcoates, Hull - Annie Yates is the dau of Edwin Yates & Annie Yates
She is on next census 80 Damson Lane, Hull, still with father but mothers name is Frances Amelia Yates . Annie and three sisters all worked at Reckitts
bendywendy
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Hi From Australia, I found this post when I was looking for any information on my Great grandparents - Robert William Yates and Harriet Jane Yates who lived and died in Hull. One of their daughters and My Grandmother was Frances Ellen Yates who had a sister Annie Elizabeth Yates. So it is possible there is a link. My grandmother left Hull during world war 1 and came to Australia with another sister. I cant find her sisters name. Her parents died in Hull...Robert in 1927 and Harriet in 1933 and both are buried in the cemetery in hull. If the cemetery still exists. I am aware that St Marks was bombed and demolished. i am trying to find out more about Robert and Harriet and hope to get to Hull. if Annie is a relative of yours we may also be related. Looking forward to linking. Lorraine
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Hi LorrW
From what I can find about your grandmother Frances Ellen Yates, it is very possible she had a dau Ellen I Yates birth reg June Q 1914 Hull and died Jun 1973 Withernsea, East Yorkshire. Ellen Yates married Thomas Marris Dec Q 1939 @ Hull. Thomas Marris born c1911 Hull and died Jun 1985 Withernsea. Children: 4 daughters birth registered Holderness and because they look like they are still living I cannot put their names on here, but you can find these on: http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl this site is word sensitive and will only find the exact names you input, but if you click births, then surname Marris, mothers surname Yates and date range 1939-1973 don't do counties etc., this will bring up 3 of the 4 daughters names, I have tried various combinations to find the other child, maybe this child was illigitimate or born elsewhere.
Frances Ellen Yates sailed 17 Sep 1914 but there is no one else listed as family travelling with her, maybe talk of the "sister" was in fact her dau Ellen which looks likely she was left in England ??? It could be that the family disowned Frances for her "misdemeanor" and was told to leave. Do you know for certain that another sister joined Frances in Australia ???
Robert William Yates birth reg April Q 1856 Sculcoates possible death reg Mar 1928 aged 72 years Sculcoates
Harriet Carmichael birth reg Dec Q 1861 Sculcoates possible death reg Mar 1933 aged 71 Sculcoates
Children:
Harriet Jane birth reg Mar 1886 Sculcoates married Dec 1908 Sculcoates Alfred Jackson
James William birth reg Mar 1888 Sculcoates & death reg Dec 1895 Hull 7 years
Annie Elizabeth birth reg Sep 1890 Sculcoates
Frances Ellen birth reg Dec 1892 Sculcoates
1911
1911 census information removed. Only the Original Poster may post details from the 1911 census, others may give information from the free index only, not the images.
It is very possible Frances's dau Ellen was either left in the care of this Home or with her family, but it looks likely Frances was in this Home for some particular reason, all the girls listed with her are aged 15 - 27 years of age, could it have been a home for orphanced/wayward/unmarried mothers and the children are then removed to another Children's Home and the mothers found work to make them respectable again ??? If the latter is the case then was there another child born to Frances Ellen Yates too ??? Maybe some other rootschat member can shed some light upon this Convent and the boarders that resided there, especially given the ages above ???
http://www.ourladyofmercy.org.uk/whatwedo/dsp-default.cfm?loadref=153 this dosen't give much information at all c1911
bendywendy
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Death reg Ellen Irene Marris @ Holderness, Yorkshire 2a 171, Jun 1973, aged 59 yrs DOB 25 March 1914
Cannot find any passenger list for her travelling to Australia in either surname.
Death reg Thomas Marris @ Hull, Yorkshire 7, 1049, June 1985, aged 74 years DOB 29 March 1911
bendywendy
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Hi BendyWendy
This is a great help, thank you so much. Certainly has given me a lot to think about and go on. I always thought there must have been a reason Frances came to Australia in 1914. I am believing now she came alone. I have not been able to find any record of her arrival in Australia so I will next go to the Archives department here and check Yates. Do your records show the name of the ship she sailed on?
Possibly the story about coming with a sister was a fabrication and she came alone. It is a very sad story, but I realise from this I have a connection with living relatives in UK. Will think about what to do about this for a while. It is very possible Ellen never knew about her mother and these living relatives have no idea about their real grandmother ( the grandmother we share). As I am 63 they are older, so it is a very sensitive matter. I have spent time on google maps finding various places you have given me.
Frances, known by all as Nellie, spent 5 years as a house servant (hard work in early 1900 Australia) on country properties and then married my grandfather in 1919 and my dad was born in 1920. They had 3 other children and she lived to be 88. I knew her very well.
Do your records show her mother as having a middle name? I thought Carmichael (which I had on documents) was her maiden name. Also thought her mother was Harriet Jane and I note daughter had same name.
Is there any record of what became of Annie Elizabeth - I was told by my mother that Annie married twice?? With possible surnames of Eanish? and Smith??? writing hard to read.
Frances had some little In Memorium cards among her things, sent to her by the Vicar of St Marks Church in Hull. The following died on these dates according to the cards.
* Robert William Yates - 2nd Feb 1927
*Harriet Yates 21 January 1933 hard to reda this one
* Harriet Jackson 14 March 1930
*Henry Eanish? 22 May 1929 maybe Annie's first husband
They are all buried in the cemetery at Hull on Hedon road which I believe now is still there from my new research.
Thank you again, certainly lots to look into.
My interest also is to find out the generation before Robert and Harriet...my great great grandparents.
Sincere regards
Lorraine
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Hi again bendywendy,
I have completed the search as you instructed for the 3 daughters and have their names.
I guess the only way to verify if Ellen is Frances's daughter is to get Ellen's birth certificate?
Cheers
Lorraine
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Good morning Lorraine
If you go back up this thread a little you will see where I have mentioned a few things to the original thread, in particular this one below, which now look likely as the marriage for Annie Elizabeth to Henry Earish as you have confirmed.
From 1891 & 1901 cen info @ St Marks, Sutton, Hull - Annie Elizabeth Yates is the dau of Robert W Yates & Harriet C Carmichael
Cannot find her on following census, there is a possible marriage Annie E Yates to either George A Cameron or Henry Earish @ Hull Dec 1911
Later today I will find the info you have asked about.
I can state the info I got about dau Ellen Irene came from a public tree on Ancestry and this tree has her mother named same as your grandmother Frances Ellen but no father noted. Do you have Ancestry, if not, I can contact this tree owner on your behalf asking whatever you would like me to ask, it could be that dau Ellen Irene was never able to find out what happened to her mother and therefore the descendent's would be pleased to have contact with you, maybe that is why there is only a brief public tree for her and they could be hoping someone will contact them.
bendywendy
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Frances E Yates, female, 21, DOB 1893 arrived Melbourne 17 Sep 1914 from London aboard the Borda
1911 England Census
1911 census information removed. Only the Original Poster may post details from the 1911 census, others may give information from the free index only, not the images.
On the previous census's for Frances she is written down as Ellen, so she may have dropped this name after she arrived in Australia.
Robert William Yates married Harriet Ann Carmichael @ Sculcoates, June 1883 (I have seen on other Ancestry info for public trees that have her middle name as Jane, not sure which is correct)
A bit of a muddle too with a birth reg for Harriet Ann / Jane Carmichael who states she was born Hull, Yks c1863 - only births I can find are these:
Harriet Carmichael @ Sculcoates, Yks Dec 1861
Harriet Ann Carmichael @ Bermondsey, London Sep 1862
Harriett Carmichael @ Newington, Surrey Sep 1863
If she was defo born Hull area then her parents are most likely:
Thomas Carmichael & Eliza K Balmer married St Paul's, Sculcoates 9 Aug 1853 - Thomas's father was also a Thomas Carmichael but no fathers name for Eliza.
Got to go for now, but will complete this later today for you.
bendywendy
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Hi Lorraine
The following info I have already posted earlier:
1911 census information removed. Only the Original Poster may post details from the 1911 census, others may give information from the free index only, not the images.
Harriet Jackson, c1885, 26 yrs, District Sculcoates, East Yks
Alfred Jackson, c1882, 29 yrs, "" "" ""
Alfred Jackson, c1910, 10mths, "" "" ""
James W B Jackson, c1909, 2 yrs "" "" ""
whilst searching for Robert, Harriet & Annie, I believe I have found Robert living with another family and only a few doors along from his dau Harriet above:
1911 England Census
1911 census information removed. Only the Original Poster may post details from the 1911 census, others may give information from the free index only, not the images.
Bob Yates, 57, Labourer, County Yorkshire, c1854 Hull, Yks
I believe this is Robert William Yates, I have cross referenced births for other Robert Yates c1853-1857 Hull and only one entry for RWY.
So was Robert a genuine Boarder or had he left Harriet.
Dau Frances Ellen was in St Mary's Convent on Damson Road, this road almost begins at top of Barnsley St, so they were not far from each other, so where are Harriet & Annie ??? I have ran out of ideas of how to find them on this census ???
1901 cen Robert, Harriet, Annie Elizabeth, Frances Ellen, Charles Page & Thomas Yates were living at 143 Lime St, again not far from Dansom Lane. Robert was a Dock Side Labourer and Lime St ran alongside the river and on doorstep of many docks at that time.
Children born to Earish father and Yates mother @ Sculcoates:
John H Earish Jun 1912 Married Margaret Bitton @ Hull Sep 1944
Frances E Earish Sep 1915 Death @ Hull Sep 1916 1 yr
Annie E Earish Jun 1917 Death @ Hull Dec 1917 0 yr
Mona Earish Mar 1919 Married Edward D Dodds @ Darlington, Co Durham, Northumberland Sep 1938
I cannot find a marriage for Annie Elizabeth Earish remarrying to a Smith after her husband's death 1929 nor can I find a death for her, but, what I have found and it could be her are these:
Mrs A E Earish, 48 yrs, arrived 25 Feb 1939 from London, England to Sydney, Australia aboard "Orford"
Her dau Mona married at Darlington, so I wonder if she went to live with them after her husband Henry died, I will look to see if her dau Mona also went to Australia.
Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980
Annie Elizabeth Earish
Electoral Year: 1943 - New South Wales - New England - Walcha
513 Apsley Street
This must be the sister you are searching for that also lived in Australia ;D there are no more entries in this surname nor can I find a marriage to a Smith, can you find anything from your end.
bendywendy
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Mona Earish married Edward Denny Dodds
England & Wales, Birth Index
Edward D Dodds
MMS: Denny
Sep Q 1916 (from a public tree date is 29 June 1916)
Reg: Darlington, Co. Durham 10a 35
England & Wales Death Index
Edward Denny Dodds 57 yrs
Birth Date: 29 Jun 1916
Reg: Jun 1973 Blackpool, Lancashire 10b 1265
England & Wales, Birth Index
Mona Earish
MMS: Yates
Mar Q 1919 Sculcoates 9d 246
England & Wales, Death Index
Mona Dodds 51 yrs
Birth Date: 2 Feb 1919
Reg: Dec 1970 Teesside South, North Yks 1b 1878
It dosen't appear that they went to Australia.
Mona & Edward had 2 children and as they have died I can put their details on here for you:
Brian Dodds born 3 May 1945 Darlington, Durham & died Dec 2005 Stockton, Durham
Joan Dodds born 1947 Hull, Yks & died 5 Oct 2003 Darlington, Co Durham
I have searched for marriages but far too many of same name in same area, although I don't think they did marry.
Darlington West Cemetery - Section R1 Row 4 No 26 - Monumental Inscription of Headstone:
In loving memory of MONA DODDS died 21st Nov 1970 aged 51 years Also her dear husband EDWARD DENNY died 20th April 1973 aged 56 years R I P Also their daughter JOAN died 5th October 2003 aged 56 years [Flower urn] In loving memory of BRIAN 1945 - 2005
bendywendy
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Wendy , just to let you know we aren't allowed to post 1911 census details on the forum , so the Moderators may remove the 1911 info ,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355485.0
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Not just 1911 census- looks like LOTS of cut & paste from subscription sites which also isn't allowed :-\
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jan57 & aghadowey.... sorry I forgot to condense the info due to hubby waiting for the comp, gone back n done it now, so off to bed.
b.
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Lorraine, some more info regarding St Mary's..very interesting too
The Nuns of St Mary's http://stmaryswiltonstreetpupils.wikifoundry.com/page/The+Nuns+of+St+Mary's
not Damson Lane, but gives some information about education
http://stmaryswiltonstreetpupils.wikifoundry.com/page/About+our+School
b.
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Hi Bendy Wendy,
Hope you got to sleep.😀 That was very interesting reading. I am plotting all the details dates and names today and putting the picture together with all the details I now have. Many thanks.
The mystery of Annie's death still remains ...no records in Australia in either Ernish or Smith. I can understand that she may have come to Australia in 1939 as both remaining children were married and her husband dead. She would have wanted to try to see her sister. Very interesting that one of the children who died was called Frances E so it is likely she was close to her sister.
I certainly have to plan a trip soon to UK. We were there in 1980 but without this knowledge.
I also hope for a reply from Ancestry family tree.
Cheers
Lorraine
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Good morning
Have you found anything for Mona's brother John H Earish and his children, I think this is his death:
John Henry Earish at Hull Mar 1982 aged 69 yrs DOB April 1912
I cannot find a death for his wife Margaret - I wonder if she is still living, I have found a private tree on An*****y giving year of birth as 1924 Yorkshire and no death date, so she could still be living.
Looks like they had two daughters which you can find on the Freebmd site I sent you using just the surnames, they could still be living as born 1945 & 1952.
The 1945 one married 1971 @ Hull - looks like a dau 1973 & son 1979 Hull
The 1952 one married 1980 @ Hull - looks like a son 1981 Hull
So this means you have more relatives in Hull area ;D
I wonder if Annie's surname could have been misunderstood as Irish, try different variations and see what you can find for marriage n death.
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jan57 & aghadowey.... sorry I forgot to condense the info due to hubby waiting for the comp, gone back n done it now, so off to bed.
b.
It's not a matter of 'condensing' but posting details which we are not allowed to do here. Only 1911 census details available from FREE searches are allowed and Rootschat's policy is to abide by the terms & conditions of other sites- most, if not all, subscription sites have restrictions.
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umh... well I was just coming to look at the 1911 Free Census info to replace what I had posted as I needed a length of time to do the searches and replace the info.
Moderator comment: please re-check the RootsChat Copyright policy and the guidance on 1911 census here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355485.0
In addition, the use of cut and paste from online indexes is not allowed. This includes: Ancestry, FindMyPast, The Genealogist, FamilySearch, Irish Genealogy, FreeCen, FreeReg, and many others, where the layout and the transcription (even if faulty) is protected by copyright
Regards
bendywendy
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Thank you bendywendy for all your help, you have certainly been an amazing help with our ancestry in UK. We often feel so far away in the land of Oz. You are one of those special people who make a difference in people's lives. These past 4 days have been a revelation in my family tree. I also know from the searches I have done based on your information that I have living relatives in UK, something I never imagined. While I search as a beginner your expertise is so appreciated. Cheers Lorraine ;) ;)
I also realise as a newcomer to RootsChat that I may have been better to start a new chat so that I was the original poster but the coincidence of names in the original of this forum was too hard to overlook and in fact turned out to be real.
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Hi Lorraine
It has been a pleasure to help you and find you some living relatives you never knew you had in Yorkshire a long way from Australia so I hope sometime in the future you do come over for a visit and hopefully meet a long lost family you never knew about.
YATES is not an easy surname to search for, as I have found out, some entries have been mis transcribed as GATES & GATIS.
Annie Elizabeth Yates, as to what happened to her after 1901 census and in-between and upto 1911 is a mystery and even more of a mystery after she turns up in Australia 1939 is found again 1943 then another mysterious disappearance, you have a bit of work finding her at your end, I hope you find her resting place.
b.
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Hi Wendy,
Your help has been invaluable, you are truly dedicated and committed to this role. I will continue to search at this end for Annie Elizabeth and find the end to this amazing story.
By the earlier post re Harriet (mother) living elsewhere, does/did that entry infer she had other children beyond the 4 I know about? If not able to reply I understand.
Cheers from Aus.
Lorraine
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Hi Susan, I don’t think Fred and miss yates married, he may have been already married to my gt grandma in leics. Do you happen to have any confirmation where he was born?
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Welcome to Rootschat - FhHirons
While searching for the parents of parents for your 1921 search, I'd found a second family for Frederick online, and searched for the first son from the second marriage & ended up here. So you were already aware of him pulling a runner.
For some reason men just up and left their families and started a new one elsewhere. We see it often on here. My husband's GrFather did the same after ww1. left four children then made four more. He lived only a block away which made it extra heartbreaking for the family. He did marry her but it wasn't valid, and 1st wife got his pension.
First & second family listed here. I imagine NO chance the in-laws would be looking after the children. Your Clara must have been in quite a state with 3 wee ones, so someone was looking after them...The lad's surname might be very badly spelled.
https://www.williamsfamilytree.co.uk/tree/getperson.php?personID=I61879&tree=wft
This is quite an old thread but I'll try to let the thread owner know you've replied in case notification was turned off! adding: Did private message...but noticed rainbowuk hasn't been on the site for years!
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Whoah...This section of the site also says she was married (Capell) with 6 children? So not sure if all this info is valid.
https://www.williamsfamilytree.co.uk/tree/getperson.php?personID=I99823&tree=wft
Adding: Have you seen that Jorose has found your lads in 1920? https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=885820.0https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=885820.0