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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Jessies Mum on Tuesday 21 August 12 05:28 BST (UK)
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Have just discovered my 2x great grandmother's obituary notice - it states she was from Scarriff. Her name was Elizabeth Marie White born circa 1853 - father possibly Francis. She came out to Australia as a 14 year old and stayed with her Aunt in Melbourne who was the proprietor of the Great Britain Hotel. Can anyone shed any light on this family please? The Aunt in Melbourne is possibly my connection to finding out more.
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Was their Surname Toohey, Matthew Honora and John?
Neil
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This is what I am not sure of, but would be around the time period of 1867 to 1874
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Well if it is then their pretty famous people :o
In 1841 an Irish farm servant Matthew Toohey, his wife Honora and their young son John left Limerick to build a new life in Melbourne. After several years raising beef in the Victorian cattle country and establishing the Limerick Arms Hotel, Toohey became the first publican of the Great Britain Hotel in 1861.
After property prices slumped, the Tooheys moved to Sydney, where in 1872, John Toohey and his younger brother James would launch the Darling Brewery, and its famous successor Tooheys Standard Brewery that remains a famous and powerful company today. This brick hotel was auctioned on 11 May 1864 and advertised as ‘compact, well-built and nearly new’ and comprising six rooms, large bar and a good stone cellar. By 1968, it was a draper shop. In 1981, it was a pharmacy. In 2003, it was the site of Corporate Copying, a printing shop, and in 2004 it is being re-developed.
I have enjoyed a Toohey's for years, now we have to get more information on who your lot are ???
Their is another, I Think, Great Britain Hotel. Some Melbourne historians may be able to help. This one was in South Melbourne the Other is in Richmond I think it could be the same area, but I am not from Melbourne.
Neil ;D
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Oh my gosh Neil, this is amazing! Am keeping everything crossed!!
I googled the GB Hotel, which still stands, and yes, is located in Richmond - am assuming it would be one and the same?
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There were three hotels with the name Great Britain Hotel in the period - Flinders Street, Melbourne; Clarendon Street, South Melbourne and Richmond.
The licence of the Great Britain in Richmond was transferred from Matthew TOOHEY to Edward WOTTON on 23 July 1866 so perhaps the TOOHEYs left for Sydney around this time.
Cando
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Oh dear - so near and yet so far. ;) Good find by Cando. Great possible link. ;D
I've just been looking at the two places in Ireland, Limerick and Scarriff - they are not a million miles apart.
A couple of questions JM. Was White her maiden or married name? And what was the source of your information about her visiting her Aunt in the Great Britain Hotel, and the approximate dates you supplied? It looks like the years Elizabeth may have stayed with her Aunt will be helpful in getting further with this.
Did Elizabeth remain in Australia and marry there? Her marriage and death certificates should give her parent's names which may help you find a connection between her and the Tooheys or Wottons.
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TOOHEY's were at the South Melbourne hotel in 1861 and the licence was transferred to Mr WOTTON in July 1866.
Cando
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Pretty intersting stuff, I just Googled County Claire where Scarriff is located and it is not far from Limerick. There are lots of mentions of the main families from Scarriff, some are Mannix, Minogue, and Toohey.
I think you need to establish first how the Whites could be related to the Toohey's, probably marriage.
Have you posted anything on the Irish Board?
Neil
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Did Elizabeth remain in Australia and marry there? Her marriage and death certificates should give her parent's names which may help you find a connection between her and the Tooheys or Wottons.
OR the proprietors of the Great Britain Hotel in Flinders Street in the CBD.
See what else I can find....I'm meant to be baking :P ::)
Cando
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There is a fourth hotel with the same name.....134 Toorak Road, South Yarra.
I'll have a look through my resources later to see if I can put the licensee's names in some sort of order for you. I haven't seen a female licensee yet. Perhaps the aunt was the proprietor but someone else the licensee...now that it going to be challenging research :)
Cando
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Here is the 1901 census for Scarriff. It is interesting in a couple of ways. seems names were interchangeable. White/Whyte, Toohey/ Tuohy, Mannex/Mannix/Minogue.
I would n't go jumping too high yet. It may be worthwhile to try and Track your Elizabeth White and see what she got up to. No mean feat there are a lot of Whites in both Victoria and NSW. Best to try and backtrack your family line.
Neil
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/genealogy/1901census/scarriff_ded_scariff_town136_15.htm
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Hi All,
I have got a copy of Elizabeth's marriage certificate to Matthew Williams on 27 March 1874 at St Francis Church in Melbourne. On the marriage certificate, it states that Elizabeth's parents were Francis as her father, but the mother's name looks like Michelle but is hard to decipher.
As for the information about her Aunt and anything else, this is where I got it from:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/78006410?searchTerm=obituary, mrs. m williams, port macdonnell&searchLimits=
Elizabeth died on 14 February 1930 aged 77 in Mount Gambier, buried Port MacDonnell, South Australia.
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Who were the witnesses to the marriage?
Cando
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Looks like Annie McLaughlin is one - there are two others, both being male names that are hard to decipher - Joseph Pre? and possible Michael Co? - just hard to read the remaining letters to make a surname.
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Jessies Mum,
Would you be able to post snippets of the marriage certificate that you are having problems deciphering. (I would be very surprised if the Elizabeth's mother's name is Michelle. ;))
Although you would get some doubled up information, it might be worth purchasing Elizabeth's death certifcate too. Does her marriage certifcate give her mother's maiden name?
Have you looked for a birth certificate for her in Scarriff?
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Death certificates in SA have scant information... In 1930 - Date and Place of Death, Name, Sex, Age,Occupation, Usual Residence, Birthplace, Length of Residence in Commonwealth, Age at Marriage, Number of Issue Living and Deceased,Cause of Death,Place of Death and Informant.
I have posted Elizabeth's death information from the death index when helping you with this family previously.
Cando
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Death certificates in SA have scant information... In 1930 - Date and Place of Death, Name, Sex, Age,Occupation, Usual Residence, Birthplace, Length of Residence in Commonwealth, Age at Marriage, Number of Issue Living and Deceased,Cause of Death,Place of Death and Informant.
oh, no parents. Shame .... :-\
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Was Elizabeth 21 when she married, if not who gave consent?
What was her usual address...and occupation?
Where was she married? Perhaps the parish record of the marriage may be more legible.
Cando
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Will try and scan certificate today to add snippets on here. White was Elizabeth's maiden name, she married and became Williams. On the marriage certificate it states she was 20 years of age and a servant, but on her death certificate it states she was married at age 18. Both certificates state she was born in County Clare, Ireland - it is the obituary that gives the Scarriff (only found that on line yesterday). On the marriage certificate it states her present and usual residence were both Melbourne. Her father Francis White, on her marriage certificate, has an occupation of Shoemaker. Nothing about parents on the death certificate.
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Thought some of this may be useful if you think Elizabeth WHITE has a connection with the TOOHEY family.
A births registered to Matthew and Honora in Vic have the surname TUOHY. The transcriptions of the baptisms also TUOHY.
Electoral Roll 1856 Victoria
TOOHEY Matthew Clarendon Street, licensed victualler Qualification-householder [note: not leaseholder or freehold]
Sands & Kenny Directory
1857, 1858, 1859, 1860
Great Britain Hotel, Hill, Richard Evans 109 Flinders Street west.
1861, 1865
Great Britain Hotel, McGowan, James 109 Flinders Street west. [News item 5 Sep 1860 of licence transfer spells name McGARRAN]
1858, 1860, 1861
TOOHEY Matthew Limerick Arms Hotel, Clarendon & Park Streets, Emerald Hill [Hotel of the same name still at this address today however earlier photos which appear to taken either late 19thC or early 20thC, show it to be two stories, today it is today three]
1865
Great Britain Hotel, M Toohey, Clarendon & Napier Street, Emerald Hill.
[This hotel was mentioned in 1862 in a news item with landlord William John COXON - not everyone paid to have entries in the directories]
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/toohey-james-matthew-4943
John Thomas Toohey (1839-1903) and James Matthew Toohey (1850-1895), brewers, were the sons of Matthew Toohey (d.1892), businessman, and his wife Honora (d.1878), née Hall. John Thomas was born on 26 April 1839 at Limerick, Ireland, and was taken to Melbourne by his parents in 1841. His father bought town lots and settled many Irish families in Victoria. One of the founders of the St Patrick's Society in Melbourne, he was a political ally of (Sir) John O'Shanassy and (Sir) Charles Gavan Duffy. In the 1860s he was forced to sell at a loss; in 1866 he went to New South Wales and lived in virtual retirement.
Slightly different to the info about Matthew, posted by Neil....so Matthew TOOHEY didn't establish the Limerick Arms Hotel he leased it.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0qbc/
Argus 8 Apr 1861
LAW REPORT - SUPREME COURT
Mr. Fellows, on behalf of James O'Brien, owner of the Limerick Arms, moved for the writ of certiorari. Mr. Higinbotham, on behalf of the magistrates above-mentioned, appeared to oppose the issue of the writ.......
The facts appeared to bo these:-Jame O'Brien, the owner of the Limerick Arms Hotel, Emerald Hill, on the 25th March, 1858, granted a lease of the premises to Matthew Toohey, of Emerald Hill, licensed victualler, for three years, from the 4th of March, 1858; under covenants, among other things, to uphold the licence, and also not transfer it to any other person without the lessor's consent in writing. On the 5th of March, 1861, O'Brien applied to the benoh of magistrates at a special quarterly licensing meeting for a publican's goneral licence to himself for the Limerick Arms Hotel. His application was postponed for a month, for him to put the premises in proper repair. They had fallen out of repair during Toohey's term. On the same 5th of March Matthew Toohey applied to the same bench of magistrates for a publican's generaI licence for a new house, in Clarendon-street, not before licensed, which he proposed to open himself, and keep as an hotel, under the name of the Limerick Castle. Tho application was opposed by O'Brien, and was refused.
Argus 23 Jul 1866
POLICE COURT
SANDRIDGE
The licence of the Great Britain Hotel was transferred from Mr, Matthew Toohey to Mr. Edward Wootton ;
Arrrggghhhhh.....after all that research just found this AND to throw a big spanner in the works - Great Britain Hotel at Williamstown not 'Melbourne' ::) Need a smiley for 'frustration'
Argus 4 Jul 1866
WILLIAMSTOWN
The application for a transfer of the Great Britain Hotel from Henry Mackinnon to Norah Morley was postponed for fourteen days.
Argus Thursday 21 Feb 1867
WILLIAMSTOWN
Joseph Cruikshahk Was charged with stealing two bottles of gin and a bottle of porter from the Great Britain Hotel on Sunday forenoon. The larceny wvas proved by the landlady of the house, who saw the prisoner go into the pantry and carry the bottles away. Ile yvas ordered to be locked up for forty I eight hours.-
Could this be the aunt who owned the Great Britain Hotel in "Melbourne"?
Cheers
Cando
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Looking at the 1901 Irish Census in Scariff, Co Clare for possible WHITE siblings. I noticed that every inhabitant of Scariff [not Scarriff] lives on Scariff Street!
Living at 72 Scariff Street
WHITE John Head Roman Catholic Cannot R&W 62 Shoemaker Married Born Co Clare
WHITE Mary Wife Roman Catholic Cannot R&W 60 Shoemaker Married Born Co Clare
WHITE Katie Dau Roman Catholic R&W 24 General Servant Not married Born Co Clare
WHITE Thoms Son Roman Catholic R&W 18 Not married Born Co Clare
WHITE Denis Son Roman Catholic R&W 16 Not married Born Co Clare
WHITE Maggie Dau Roman Catholic R&W 14 Nurse Not Married Born Co Clare
Living at 48.1 Scariff Street
WHITE James Head Roman Catholic R&W 55 Shoemaker Not married Born Co Clare
WHITE Patrick Brother Roman Catholic R&W Shoemaker Not married Born Co Clare
Cheers
Cando
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Totally missed this response - my sincere apologies Cando. Thank you for the information - makes me wonder if the boys took on the same business as Dad? Even John's wife Mary was involved in the business - that's a funny coincidence that they all live on the same street name as the town! I do sincerely thank you for the time and effort you put in to finding this information for me - it is very much appreciated.
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Perhaps using the Show new replies to your posts will help you ;D
Information about Scariff was given to you on this thread on the Clare board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,611767.msg4609231.html#msg4609231
Perhaps the Norah MORLEY mentioned may be the aunt...and it is possible she was only the landlady not the proprietor.
Cheers :)
Cando
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Thanks Cando, much appreciated :)
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Hi all,
I know all previous messages around this are from some time back, but I have just discovered Eliza's immigration record finally.
She was off to Richmond, Melbourne - exactly where the Great Britain Hotel was (and still is) located.
I feel like I've struck gold!
Just wanted to share this with you all - it certainly looks like Wotton is the name she is employed by!
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Hi all,
I have a Passenger List for an Elizabeth White aboard the Lady Jocelyn - I can't add the snip to the message.
Under calling Elizabeth's details state "General Duties", name of Employer is Mrs ***tton (possibly Whitton?) with address of Employer being "Vaucluse, Richmond"
The second Passenger List is for two White girls (one Elizabeth, one Eliza) with the calling "Teacher".
I'm hopeful to break down this brick wall.
Thanks again
JessiesMum
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Hi.
Helpful information has been posted on your other thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=611767.9
I have not been able to see a family connection between Elizabeth WHITE going to Mrs WHITTON in Richmond – Ship’s record-
And the story in the newspaper obituary. It does not add up for me.
Edward Bushell WOOTTON married Jane CROCKFORD in 1865, Victoria Reg 2532
He was born in Kent and she was the daughter of wine and spirit merchant John Edward CROCKFORD.
The marriage announcement of Jane and Edward in 1865. He born Kent
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5763878
When John Edward CROCKFORD died in 1872 (reg 8032) (Father Richard. Mother Elizabeth HOMEWOOD), in his news death notice it stated born in Wendover, Buckinghamshire,.
His wife appears to have been Mary HEARLE. I have not seen their marriage nor Jane CROCKFORD’s birth.
As stated, Edward Bushell WOOTTON took over the license of the Great Britain (Sandridge not Richmond) in 1866.
He died in 1869. A couple of days prior, he had been found guilty of embezzlement.
At the time of this case, he was not licensee of the Great Britain Hotel, South Melbourne.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244907426
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244908405
Death Notice
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5821185
He lived in South Yarra. This is where in 1869, a child of theirs died.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/188572439
WOOTTON Edward Bushell
Mother Rebecca HOMEWOOD
Father Stephen
At MARG
Spouse CROCKFORD, Jane
Age 39
7919/1869
His wife Jane nee CROCKFORD remarried in November 1871 to William ALLEN
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5857021
Elizabeth WHITE arrived Feb 1 1870. The record shows she was going to her aunt Mrs WHITTON at Richmond.
Sue
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I would like to amend what I have written above.
The shipping record does not show "her aunt"
It shows Mrs WHITTON, Vaucluse, Richmond"
Apologies.
Sue
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Thank you so much for your help as always sparrett, much appreciated.
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Will try and scan certificate today to add snippets on here. White was Elizabeth's maiden name, she married and became Williams. On the marriage certificate it states she was 20 years of age and a servant, but on her death certificate it states she was married at age 18. Both certificates state she was born in County Clare, Ireland - it is the obituary that gives the Scarriff (only found that on line yesterday). On the marriage certificate it states her present and usual residence were both Melbourne. Her father Francis White, on her marriage certificate, has an occupation of Shoemaker. Nothing about parents on the death certificate.
The death of Frank White, Shoemaker, at the Scarriff Workhouse has been discovered - as has his widow. Thank you to all for their help - the discovery of the widow's maiden name has been of assistance, but still trying to link to the GBH but the confirmation of 3 x GGrandparents is so rewarding.