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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: annaluscombe1 on Sunday 19 August 12 05:50 BST (UK)
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hi
I am reasearching George Greig (married to Elspet Lamb) who lived in Upper Boachra and Aberdeen City from 1839 until they moved to Peterhead (Invernettie Cottage) in 1849. In 1854 the family with their children emigrated to Australia on the James Fernie leaving from Liverpool. My question is: why would a family travel north to only have to make the long trip south again. I am assuming that they are following available work. But perhaps emigration agents were better in Peterhead? My second question is how would this family have travelled from Peterhead to Liverpool? If anyone has any ideas and more experience in research, please let me know. I am trying to put a story together to make the raw facts a little more compelling to read for future generations.
many thanks
Anna
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Hi
There doesn't appear to be anything unusual, people moving is often work related and my northeast Scottish relatives certainly moved about. Peterhead is only about 50 kms from Aberdeen.
I can't see how the emigration agents would have had anything to do with the move to Peterhead as you are looking at 5 years between the move and emigration.
They could have travelled a number of ways, maybe by train to Glasgow and then by boat to Liverpool. If you check stories of others who emigrated from northeast Scotland to Australia in that period you would get some ideas.
Andy
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Another point to consider is that a fair number of Lambs came from an area about fifteen miles or so from Peterhead and even more Greigs came from that region.
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I would endorse all that Andy said.
Also, assuming they were renting rather than owning their 'abode', they may have been chasing cheaper rents, or more suitable premises, or to be nearer workplaces. Any number of reasons.
And 5 years between moving and emigrating does not sound like the emigrating had anything to do with the move to Peterhead.
Do you know where in Australia they went? Do you need any help there?
Dawn M
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Hi
Thanks for your suggestions. I was just quesrooming the move. They were a young couple working next to her fathers farm of 35 acres. Perhaps the farm could not support them all during the downturn in the economy. Do you know anything about the Greigs from that area? My George greig was born 1810 ( kincardineshire it says on a census). His death certificate states stone haven as his birth place yet when I search Scotland's people there are no matches for a George greig born between 1800 and 1820. His death cretic ate states his father was also a George and a farmer. I can't find anything. He only appears on paper when he marries Elspet lamb in 1839 in old machar. It appears they both worked on neighboring farms. I have tracked them from old machar to new bridge on don and then to peterhead. Is there any further info I can find which would indicate what they did in peterhead? Or do you have any suggestions as to how I might go about trying to further ascertain George Greigs parents etc.
Thanks for your help.
Anna
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Anna, I agree with the earlier posts.
You have a young couple growing in the north east, farming stock. Stonehaven isn't that far from Aberdeen at all, and you say that although George was born in Stonehaven they later lived in Old Machar, and then moved on to Peterhead, so I don't quite understand your original question about 'why move all that way north?', because all these places are in the same part of the country.
Looking at SP, I found some births that could be your George, though it may be you have already ruled them out? George Greig born in 1806 in Fordoun, which is not far from Stonehaven. When giving information for the 1841/51 census it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that someone gives their general area of birth, rather than the exact village, and if born in Fordoun summing it up as 'Stonehaven' would be fair enough.
His parents were George Greig and Ann Smart, not sure if that rings any bells? There were 3 others George Greig births in 1812, 1816 and 1818 but their fathers are listed as Thomas, James and William, so if you already know your George's father was also George we can rule them out.
As to why they moved from Old Machar, which is a rural area a bit north of Aberdeen, no idea but it's possible that they ween't making the living they needed to in that area? From Old Machar the road heads up through Elllon and Hatton to Peterhead and if there was work up there servicing the fishing fleets they may have considered it a better prospect. The fact that they headed to Australia a few years later may mean that they were struggling to make ends meet, as so many were, and just kept chasing the chance of a better life - hope they found it.
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Sorry, I mentioned the 1806 birth record for George Greig without giving you the reference. If you want to go to Scotlands People and look at the original, it is: 259/00 0030 0170
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Thanks for the reply. Yes it would appear they did very well in Australia. With regards to George I guess it is a matter of working out of his listed fathers name was correct or whether the birth place is correct. His death was reported by his son in law with whom he lived for 14 years. His age was 93 in 1903 as stated on his death certificate. It also states his dad was named George. Strangely on his wife's death certificate ( she died before him) he was listed as John. I wonder if this was incorrect as on all children's birth certificates in Scotland and Australia he is named George. In 1841 census when he was in king st Aberdeen living in a boarding house birth place states Aberdeen, yet in 1851 when he is in invernettie in his own residence his birth place is stated as Kinneff. Yet his death certificate states stonehaven! So I need to workout if the name of the father is wrong or the age on birth certificate ( although it does correlate with census info). Very frustrating as my maiden name is Greig and I really really really want to know!
Anna
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Hi
According to the 1851 census George was born in Kinneff, Kincardineshire and his occupation was a carrier which was a person who transported goods.
Kinneff is about 9 miles south of Stonehaven but it is not unusual for a nearby larger place to be named, particularly when living some distance away.
Andy
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Hi Anna,
I did a google onyour
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OOps sorry about that............ i did a quick google on your George Greig, and it looks like he is on a family tree on A******y. His fathers name is listed as William! and mother as Margaret Webster. Have a look and see, but it all fits in.
Anne
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Thanks Andy.
I just cannot seem to pinpoint his birth details which is proving a little frustrating. There only seems to George Greigs born around 1810 to a father named George but not in kincardineshire or George greig born in 1810 but born to a father named George!
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I agree it's confusing!
Looking at all the differing birth places you have, and trying to work logically -
Yes, it says Stonehaven on his death certificate. Information on death records is given by whoever registered the death and not, to put it brutally, by the deceased. Yes, it was in Australia but Stonehaven is pretty clear, and, like Aberdeen, can be a catch all name not just for the Stonehaven itself but also for the parishes immediately surrounding. I would think that is a pretty strong pointer to a birth in Kincardineshire and not in Aberdeen.
1841 census - in a boarding house. Birth places on census should never be ignored just to suit a particular theory but because it was a boarding house we have no way of knowing who actually provided the information. Always bear it in mind but I wouldn't give it as much weight as the information his own son provided when he died.
1851 census - you say he is in his own home so almost certainly he, or at least his wife, provided the information this time. He gives Kinneff. so that has to be counted as pretty accurate and is the most likely option. Kinneff, Arbuthnot and Fordoun are all small villages fairly close together, just south of Stonehaven. Where the border between Kincardineshire and Forfarshire/Angus sat at that point I'm not sure - at present it's south of there, just between Montrose and St Cyrus, so would indicate he was definitely born in Kincardineshire, but I'd do a double check on births in Forfarshire just to be sure.
So taking those three together I'd definitely go with the Kincardineshire birthplaces, rather than Aberdeen. Hope that makes sense!
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Hi Anne
Yes I have seen that one but it is incorrect because the George greig that have dies in Scotland and my George dies in Victoria Australia 1903! Plus his fathers name is George not William. But thank you for taking the time to look for me.
Anna
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Thank you will check Forfarshire as well.
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By the way, do any of these names occur anywhere in your family from George onwards?
Smart, Kerr, Duthie, Smith
I ask because these are the mother's names for the births coming up for George Greig in Kincardinshire between 1800 and 1820.
Parents
George Greig / Ann Smart - Fordoun
Thomas Greig / Catherine Kerr - Fetteresso
James Greig / Jean Duthie, Durris
William Greig / Jean Smith, Durris
All of these places could reasonably be generalised as Stonehaven, but I'm afraid none of them are Kinneff, so it may be your George's baptism isn't listed. The Fordoun birth looks the best of the limited options, but there's no guarantee.
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Thinking laterally, did your George have any brothers or sisters that you know of? I've found some other Greig baptisms so wondered if we could tie him into a family that way?
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No unfortunately none of those names appear in my family from George onwards. I don't know of any brothers or sisters as I only have his death certificate and the two census information. I have looked at the births of his children to see if there are any greig witness but no such luck. The witnesses are elspets father, John lamb.
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Hi
Personally I would go with Kinneff because that is an answer probably given by George himself. The 1841 census only asks whether born in County or not.
The OPRs on Scotlandspeople are registers for the Church of Scotland, the CPRs on Scotlandspeople are the Catholic Parish Registers but if they were another denomination then the registers are not on Scotlandspeople. I think they are held by the National Archives of Scotland
Andy
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Thanks Andy. Do you know if the National Archives of Scotland are accessible online as I live in Melbourne Australia.
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Hi
No, the NAS do not have them online. There was some talk that they may eventually end up on Scotlandspeople but goodness knows when.
Andy
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Anna, Andy,
I've double checked for any Greig baptisms in Kinneff between 1790 and 1854 in the hope of picking up some trace of a family that would fit what Anna has already. There are baptisms but in all cases the fathers are David or John, and the dates are in clusters, with nothing at all showing between 1796 and 1825. Sorry Anna.
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Hi,
I also had distant relatives who sailed on the James Fernie.
In the 1851 census David McDill a shepherd was living with his wife Catherine and 8 children in Ayrshire,
Scotland. On the ships log their place of residence when selected for emigration shows that they had moved to Inverness.
They were part of the recruitment of the Highland & Island Emigration Society, and are described as being Very Poor.However another family was described as being Miserably Poor, so they weren't the worst off.
The vessel sailed from Birkenhead Docks,Liverpool on 18 August 1854.
Shortly after sailing there was an outbreak of Cholera onboard & 2 of Davids daughters died.They arrived at Adelaide,S.A,
on 16 November & after a period of quarantine they landed on 5th December for a new life.
Then as now people follow work wherever it may be found.
The link below will give some details of passengers onboard;
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/jamesfernie1854.shtml
http://www.angelfire.com/ns/bkeddy/HIES/jamesfernie.html
Rgds Matt
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Matt, this is Anna's thread not mine, but I've found what you've posted really interesting, thank you, but also so very sad. Whole new life beckoning and then to lose 2 daughters to cholera on board ship.
It does beg the question though, why was 'Very Poor' better than 'Miserably Poor'?. Makes one wonder, neither of them sounds particularly good ways to be categorised.
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1851 census - you say he is in his own home so almost certainly he, or at least his wife, provided the information this time. He gives Kinneff. so that has to be counted as pretty accurate and is the most likely option. Kinneff, Arbuthnot and Fordoun are all small villages fairly close together, just south of Stonehaven. Where the border between Kincardineshire and Forfarshire/Angus sat at that point I'm not sure - at present it's south of there, just between Montrose and St Cyrus, so would indicate he was definitely born in Kincardineshire, but I'd do a double check on births in Forfarshire just to be sure
That county boundary was well south of Kinneff. See http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KCD/parishes.html - there are at least three parishes between Kinneff and the county boundary to the south. St Cyrus was never in Angus (which was also known to officialdom as Forfarshire for a time until the ancient name was restored by Act of Parliament in 1928) and Montrose was never in Kincardineshire.
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Thanks Forfarian, that's useful. I know the boundary to Kincardinshire is still marked today between Montrose and St Cyrus (even though technically it doesn't still exist?) but I wasn't sure if there had been changes in the past. I learn something new every day on this board!