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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: chrislb on Saturday 11 August 12 08:49 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Owing to a 'family mystery' (for want of a better way to put it) I have question - how much interaction, historically speaking, have Scotland and Spain, or maybe Portugal, had?? Would there have been any 'mixed' marriages??? pre 1850??
Long story short, an ancestor of my husband was supposed to have been Spanish (family story) but all census records I have found for her indicate that she was from Scotland, Cromarty to be more precise.... is there a chance that somewhere in her ancestry, not too far back though, maybe a parent or grandparent, one was Spanish, or even Portugese??
Any ideas?? Help??
Thanks!!!
Chris in Aus!!
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Possibly from a survivor of The Spanish Armada?
The Armada attempted to escape the English fleet by sailing up the east coast, and around the north of Scotland, then down the west coast of Ireland.
But many of their sips were shipwrecked along the way.
There are stories, here in the Isle of Man, of Spanish survivors assimilating into local society. Apparently this is the origin of the local boy's name Juan (pronounced Jew-Ann)?!
But family stories have to be taken with a pinch of salt!
My family story was of French links - but closest I have found is G-G-Grandfather who was born on Jersey!! ;D
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Hm, the Spanish Armada... I hadn't thought of that :) Although I thought that they were shipwrecked on the coast of Ireland....
According to Wikipedia, that occured in 1588... so perhaps a little too early for any significantly, um, obvious, Spanish heritage to still be apparent in the 1800's. The lady in question was supposed to be obviously Spanish...
Would you know of any records that might confirm this??
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Hi Chris
Hard period for you to be definite about unfortunately :-\ Your main records are the ones you are probably looking at: census, BMDs.
Why was this ancestor supposed to be of Spanish origin? The way she looked and sounded (latin) or simply the story that she was born abroad?
Without knowing anything about her parents, one possibility that you can see coming up could be that father was army and posted abroad and some children born there.
How far have you got in tracing her lineage?
Monica
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Think Army connection would be worth considering. Have you found her father's occupation in any records yet?
What about birthplaces of siblings?
Do any other branches of the family have the same/similar story about Spanish roots?
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There is an Armada connection with Fair Isle. The flagship of the Spanish Armada, El Gran Grifon, was shipwrecked there on 20 August 1588. It was a long time since my last visit (early 90s) but I seem to remember that there was a few graves or some sort of monument there?
I know it's a long shot - but don't discount it as Cromarty is easily reached by sea from Fair Isle. :)
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Afterthought: Is it worth entering your ancestor's surname into Scotland's People and see if there are any Fair Isle connections? ;)
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Thanks all.
Firstly, the lady in question's name was, according to 'legend', Elizabetta Mendosa, from what I have been told she may have looked Spanish?? Don't quote me on that though! There is/was a portrait of a lady in Spanish garb (mantilla etc) who is supposed to have been her daughter, I think...must check that!!
However, according to her marriage certificate her name was Elizabeth Mackenzie!! Her father's occupation was Stoneman, his name was James Mackenzie but the certificate doesn't state whether he was deceased or not when she married. She married in London, by the way, in Middlesex 1844. No information about siblings of hers... I only have her name and possible birthyear, although she was a few years older than her husband when they married... however, her death year and age at death (69 years in 1877) places her birthyear as being c1808. All census records have her as being from Scotland, one mentions Cromarty. Also, the census records indicate her as being born c1815. Also, these census records show her and her family (husband and child) as being in London in 1851, and Sussex in 1861 when the child was supposed to have been in a convent in Spain... long long story...
So anyway, this is my husband's family and his sisters refuse to accept the census and marriage records as being .. correct... lol so I thought I might try to see if there is any other explanation for Elizabeth to be Spanish... or having Spanish ancestry!!
I have only got as far back as her marriage in 1844. There is a possibility that I have found her in England in 1841, the name and age fits, but can't be certain of course.
Assuming that she was born in Cromarty c1808 I have found a birth record for an Elizabeth Mackenzie born in 1807 to possible parents James Mackenzie and Margaret Mackenzie nee Bain. Can't confirm this of course but it's the most likely one so far....
Cheers!!
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chris, there are former fisher folk on the other side of the Cromarty Firth who are a bit on the swarthy side and claim Spanish ancestry, but no evidence offered by the Don I spoke to.
For an insight into life in Cromarty, Hugh Miller, a native, wrote "Scenes & Legends" , his traditional history of the port. A letter to the wee museum at Hugh Miller's Cottage in Cromarty might yield something. Opportunity for population mix was much more likely in a seaport than an inland district.
Skoosh.
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Thanks Skoosh, I'll look into it!! :)
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http://gerald-massey.org.uk/miller/b_scenes.htm
Is this the one you referred to Skoosh???
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The very one chris.
I keep picturing a Spanish Lady "washing her feet by candlelight" here.
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:)
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It is definitely possible that the lady had spanish blood. My ancestors from the
Avoch in the Black Isle were very dark and olive skinned. My GG/Grandmother was born
in 1856 and she had olive skin and black hair. Family lore always had it that there was
spanish blood on that side of the family.
Joy
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Thanks Joy! That's encouraging :)
It certainly would explain the Spanish influence...
Cheers!
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I've just discovered this interesting thread. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but stories about ancestors who were shipwrecked sailors from the Spanish Armada are part of local folklore all over the British Isles. I'm afraid there is no hard evidence for any of these sailors staying over here and marrying a local girl.
One of the best stories about them is the one recorded by the Rev. James Melville, parish minister of Kilrenny in Fife, which then included the present town of Anstruther Easter. As he was a minister and an educated man, and as his Diary and Autobiography were printed for general consumption, we can take his account as gospel (pun intended!).
Melville records how some poor bedraggled Spanish sailors, just young men for the most part, arrived in Anstruther and were looked after and nursed back to health by the local people. Remember that Scotland, unlike England, was not at war with Spain in the 1580s. They were given boats to get them back to Spain and Melville says nothing about any of them staying on in Anstruther, although of course there might have been a bit of "fraternisation" once they got their strength back! I doubt it, though.
Some time later, a boat from Anstruther was captured off Cadiz and the sailors were jailed. When the local governor heard they were from Anstruther, he had them released and treated like honoured guests, and they were given ships to get them home to Fife.
One day in July 1984 a nice ceremony of re-enactment took place at Anstruther, when thirty-five members of the Spanish Tercio Viejo Del Mar Oceano, the Ancient Order of the Ocean Sea, were received with pageantry and ceremony by the local minister and the lord of the barony of Anstruther.
What always puzzles me is why people think that dark colouring in British people must stem from foreign origins. There have probably been people with dark complexions here since the end of the last Ice Age. You don't have to be blond and blue-eyed to be British, and that's certainly not the commonest colouring in Scotland. And bear in mind that the latest DNA research shows that the Celtic peoples of the British Isles, and that includes a lot of English people too, seem to have come here from the ice-age refuges in the Iberian peninsula, so in that sense we are all "Spanish".
I'm a tall, originally red-haired and freckled east-coast Scot, but when I had my Y DNA tested I was surprised to find I had partial matches with people of French, Spanish and Portuguese origin both in Europe and North and South America. I had three matches in Puerto Rico alone! Not exactly cousins, but our distant ancestors had probably shared the same caves while they waited for the ice to melt about 10,000 years ago. Some of those who then boldly ventured north and west were to become the present-day Irish, Scots and Welsh, and to a lesser extent English.
Harry
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The documentary evidence outweighs family lore especially after 200 years
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Well said, Harry :) and I'm inclined to agree with you there... 'specially when it comes to 'family' stories and folk 'tales'. My own family has a similar sort of 'tale' attached to one of my great great grandfathers...
I am also aware of the origins of the celts :) not only that, but the Romans occupied most of England, if not the whole British Isles, and no one can tell me that they didn't 'interact' with the locals!!!
Sancti, yes, exactly, which is why this has become an issue of sorts :) Well, it's only become an issue because I have more or less disproved the 'romantic' story attached to Ms Elizabeth... yet they still insist that they have the Spanish connection!! sigh.... what's that expression?? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!!!
Thanks again :)
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chris, some Black Isle Mackenzie's here, http://www.mackenziefamilytree.com/scotland.html
Mucho Suerte,
Skoosh.
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sometimes there's a grain of truth in these old family stories and it's possible that a conscripted soldier or sailor or merchant could have brought back a wife and family from foreign lands - and I believe in some countries (such as Italy) girls take maternal line surnames, which in the UK would be rather confusing.
If you look at the "historical directory" website you'll see that large towns in the 1800s had an unbelievable number of foreign consulates - something you don't see nowadays.
Scotland historically has a tie between Queen Mary of Scots and King Philip of Spain so it's possible that the story might have travelled down several centuries. Advancing into the 17th century where we traded around the world, there was a spice war between the Scots, Portuguese, Spanish and English with Dutch involvement.
Out of curiosity I did a search for: Mendosa @ http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue:-
<<Notes for the examination of William Crightone, Jesuit, about 12,000 crowns delivered to the Jesuit Claude de Lorrayne; complaint about him to the duke of Guise by Thomas Morgayn that Crightone was an agent of the Queen of Scots. His intercepted letters into Scotland and to Bernardo de Mendosa; [year 1584].>>
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hm... interesting...
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I don't know about Mary Queen of Scots and Philip of Spain, but Queen Mary I of England, "Bloody Mary" to her detractors, married Prince Philip of Spain.
A lot of misconceptions about Scottish families and surnames are down to parish ministers and schoolmasters. You know the saying that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!" In my corner of East Fife, the surname Gosman was held by some to be from Spanish Guzmán, another legacy of the Armada, but name-experts agree that in Britain it means the 'goose man', the man who looked after the geese. How boring!
Harry
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Interestingly, my own Irish ancestry has a tale that our 'Torrens' clan is descended from Armada shipwreck survivors... Spanish of course... but so far no real evidence :) only 'family story' and the fact that the name 'Torrens' is/could be the same as the Spanish 'Torrence' or perhaps Torres??? hm...
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Torrance is not uncommon in Scotland and presumably derives from the village of that name in East Dunbartonshire. I suppose the golfer Sam Torrance is the most famous bearer of the name at present.
Harry
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Firstly, the lady in question's name was, according to 'legend', Elizabetta Mendosa
She married in London, by the way, in Middlesex 1844.
Not a survivor of the Armada, then ;)
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Interestingly, my own Irish ancestry has a tale that our 'Torrens' clan is descended from Armada shipwreck survivors... Spanish of course... but so far no real evidence :) only 'family story' and the fact that the name 'Torrens' is/could be the same as the Spanish 'Torrence' or perhaps Torres??? hm...
According to G F Black's Surnames of Scotland the surname Torrance is of territorial origin from either Torrance in Stirlingshire (that'll be the one in the newfangled 'East Dunbartonshire' but if you're doing historical research you need to know which historic county it's in) or Torrance in East Kilbride.
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Firstly, the lady in question's name was, according to 'legend', Elizabetta Mendosa
She married in London, by the way, in Middlesex 1844.
Not a survivor of the Armada, then ;)
Well, Sam certainly has dark good looks, as do many Scotsmen (but not this one).
Harry
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Firstly, the lady in question's name was, according to 'legend', Elizabetta Mendosa
She married in London, by the way, in Middlesex 1844.
Not a survivor of the Armada, then ;)
No, not an Armada survivor :)
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So we can safely assume that there is a slight possibility of Ms Elizabeth having Spanish heritage it's (a) not likely to be from the Spanish Armada and (b) there's no real way of confirming it historically....
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The Scotsman has been running a series of articles about the DNA of the Scottish population, based on ongoing research, and here is today's latest instalment -
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/scotland-s-dna-tracing-the-nation-s-ancestral-history-1-2465715
Harry
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Chris, in answer to your two last points, it's a yes and yes (ie Armada is out and hard to prove it all really!)...and that's from a girl with a Scottish dad and a Spanish mama ;) 8)
Monica
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Al Martino anyone? ;D
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Al Martino is American, Sancti - way off base and off topic we are now ::)
Monica
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enIdTGckjKs
Back on topic ;D
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;D
Chris, a diversion for sure. Must be the summer air....
Monica
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lol so let's get back on topic!!
That article certainly was interesting Harry. DNA tells it's own story doesn't it!! Wonder what mine would show?? I have Scots, English, Irish, and African heritage (not that that is all that unusual I suppose)... that would be an interesting story to be sure!!
Well, unless I can find my Ms Elizabeth's siblings/parents she will remain a mystery. I wish she'd had parents with unusual names!! It would make it so much easier :) Do you know how many 'James Mackenzie''s there are??? Way way too many!!! hahaha
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A wee article on Scottish DNA, muy buen!
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/scotland-s-dna-tracing-the-nation-s-ancestral-history-1-2465715
Skoosh.
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I'm sure I've read that article somewhere before....
The Scotsman has been running a series of articles about the DNA of the Scottish population, based on ongoing research, and here is today's latest instalment -
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/scotland-s-dna-tracing-the-nation-s-ancestral-history-1-2465715
Harry
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The author's book on the subject is "The Scots, a Genetic Journey" by Moffat & Wilson. Birlinn.
I'm half way through, very good too.
Skoosh.
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I am an Australian with a strong celtic background.Mostly Irish & Scottish with some Cornish & Welsh.My Grandfathers family had an Irish background.They mostly had black hair & blue eyes but did not have fair skin.I also have this colouring.It has been in our family for 5 generations.I have been mistaken for European many times especially Italian & was once told by a fair Spanish woman I looked more Spanish than her.I was always told we had a Spanish ancestor also but havent been able to find one so far.Some Irish & Scottish have dark colouring they are not all fair.
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Yes, as I said before, it's odd how people seem to think that fair hair and blue eyes are somehow the norm, and dark colouring is a sign of foreign blood. In Britain as a whole, true blondes are probably in the minority. Even in Sweden and Germany, two countries I have lived and worked in, not everybody is blonde and blue-eyed by a long chalk. I lived in a village on the Lower Rhine in Germany, between Krefeld and Mönchengladbach, and I would say that short stature and dark colouring were the norm there. But people have a mental picture of Germans as all being tall, blonde Prussians.
Harry
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As the daughter of a Scottish dad and a Spanish mama...
My father was dark haired, brown eyed and very fair skin.... (origin very much Ireland and the Highlands).
My mother is blond and green eyes with honey skin (beautiful and elegant ;)) and does NOT look Spanish even though with her genealogy I have not found any other European blood for a few centuries (after which I gave up due to lack of info!)....
Monica :)
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North Italians are also often fair and blue-eyed. That part of the country used to have a Celtic population. We tend to lump nationalities together as being English, Scottish, French, Italian, German etc., but these are fairly modern designations, and in the past people lived in tribal confederations, with natural barriers like mountains and rivers preventing mixing of populations, so there must have been a lot of inbreeding, tending to emphasise and promote the prevailing physical characteristics of the tribe.
I said that where I lived in Germany, to the west of the Rhine, people were often short and dark. One day I took the train east across the Rhine to Siegen in Westphalia, for a job interview at the university, and I was struck by how different the people in Siegen looked - lots more blondes than I was used to seeing, and a different dialect too. But these were Saxons, unlike the Franks on the other side of the Rhine, and the river would have been a formidable barrier to tribal intermixing in the past.
Harry
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There are Spanish names in Oban, Argyll and stories of the survivors of armada wrecks at places including Greenpoint near Poolewe in Wester Ross.
There are more definite historical accounts of armada survivors journeying across ireland, pursued by British noblemen, and making their way back to scotland at Kintyre, Argyll.
Spain and Portugal were allies of the Jacobites; Spain's wealth in particular, was a target of British (i.e. English-sponsored) Privateers in the caribbean and Americas.
Portugal is one of Britain's oldest allies, and there are still old British families in privileged positions in mainland Portugal and Madeira.
Then there's the trade links - Any of Scotland's ports would have had links with Spain and Portugal especially during the 19th and 20th Centuries.
There are some very interesting cases of Maternal DNA from exotic sources amongst people who thought themselves "pure" Scots - One in particular caught my imagination - A woman from the Lothians who has a maternal line going back to the South Pacific islands!
I'm rambling, as usual, but although I agree that, in the absence of extraordinary evidence of a specific connection, it is far more likely that swarthy looks are just part of the inheritance of some very British families, the converse may also be true - From the Peninsula Wars, via Captain Kidd, (from Greenock?), and merchant seamen of 19th & 20th Cs., there have been increasing opportunities for peely wally British men to acquire exotic brides and bring them home to Blighty, following the macho, patrilocal custom of the species.
T.
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It is definitely possible that the lady had spanish blood. My ancestors from the
Avoch in the Black Isle were very dark and olive skinned. My GG/Grandmother was born
in 1856 and she had olive skin and black hair. Family lore always had it that there was
spanish blood on that side of the family.
Joy
I believe that my direct male line ancestors by the surname of Munro came from the parish of Avoch in the early 18th century, and I have taken part in Y-chromosome DNA testing and of my 7 closest DNA matches two have my surname of Munro, three have the French surname of Runyon (or variations) and one has the surname Bustamante which is totally Spanish. So the story about the Spanish Armada having a ship wrecked at Avoch could be true!
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I believe that my direct male line ancestors by the surname of Munro came from the parish of Avoch in the early 18th century, and I have taken part in Y-chromosome DNA testing and of my 7 closest DNA matches two have my surname of Munro, three have the French surname of Runyon (or variations) and one has the surname Bustamante which is totally Spanish. So the story about the Spanish Armada having a ship wrecked at Avoch could be true!
If they are "close DNA matches", it's much more likely that your joint ancestor lived later in history than 432 years ago.
How close is the match to Bustamente?
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I believe that my direct male line ancestors by the surname of Munro came from the parish of Avoch in the early 18th century, and I have taken part in Y-chromosome DNA testing and of my 7 closest DNA matches two have my surname of Munro, three have the French surname of Runyon (or variations) and one has the surname Bustamante which is totally Spanish. So the story about the Spanish Armada having a ship wrecked at Avoch could be true!
If they are "close DNA matches", it's much more likely that your joint ancestor lived later in history than 432 years ago.
How close is the match to Bustamente?
All seven of these Y-DNA matches are only 23/25 marker matches. They are the closest Y-DNA matches I have. I have about another 1000+ matches that are at the 12 marker level, but as you probably know they are not much use. So the 7x 23/25 marker matches including the Bustamante man is the closest I have. I think the 25 marker level is the minimum you need really for them to be possibly related. Comments appreciated.
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Just realised that you're talking about Y DNA, which is something I know little about so maybe you should ignore my last post! 23/25 may well be in the correct time frame.
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My family all originally migrated from the British Isles to Australia.I have done a dna test which shows Western European (which includes England & Wales,)& Irish / Scottish & a small % of Scandinavian .Of which I have no idea where I have inherited this from.But we have some very tall people in our family & a predominance of blue eyes.