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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Toptotty on Friday 10 August 12 20:44 BST (UK)

Title: What does certificate say???
Post by: Toptotty on Friday 10 August 12 20:44 BST (UK)
Hi, can anyone tell me what this certificate says under Mary Monaghan?  It is for my grandfather Patrick Boyle, but under his mother (Mary Monaghan)  it has widow of Henry Connolly, labourer who died  at ?......... 16 year ago.  All help much appreciated (as usual!!!)
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: candleflame on Friday 10 August 12 20:48 BST (UK)
I know its not in Scotland and I am from the North East of England but my eyes saw Middlesboro ( Middlesborough). Is that a possibility??
Or what about Middlestone??
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: copperbeech5 on Friday 10 August 12 20:55 BST (UK)
Hi,

I second Candleflames answer for Midlesboro'  If you look, the little mark is at the end of the word.

Hope that helps,

Copperbeech5
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Pels. on Friday 10 August 12 21:01 BST (UK)




Slightly more than 16 years, but how about this :

Death, Sep qtr 1884 
Henry Connolly, aged 40   
Middlesbro', Vol 9d, page 389

Pels.
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Finley 1 on Friday 10 August 12 21:03 BST (UK)
It definately looks like Middlesboro to me....

xin
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Toptotty on Friday 10 August 12 21:08 BST (UK)
Thanks guys, Pels he married Mary Monaghan in 1885 so that rules the 1884 death out, but thank you very much for looking anyway.  Keep the suggestions coming, does look like Middlesbro, now that you are all mentioning it!   :D
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: craggagh on Friday 10 August 12 21:58 BST (UK)
Hello -

I would read the name of the deceased husband as Connelly.

craggagh.
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Pels. on Friday 10 August 12 22:01 BST (UK)




Just for curiosity, where did they marry in 1885 ?

Pels.
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Gadget on Friday 10 August 12 22:24 BST (UK)




Just for curiosity, where did they marry in 1885 ?

Pels.

Found them marrying Holytown, Lanarkshire in 1885
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Pels. on Friday 10 August 12 22:35 BST (UK)




Thanks, brevitas !  :)
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Gadget on Friday 10 August 12 22:38 BST (UK)
Interestingly, Mary is with her father James in Holytown in 1891. She's listed as Married - so did Henry die in 1887 :-\

Monkey Row, Bothwell, Holytown
James Monaghan, widower, 52, Fur(nace?) lab, b. Ireland
Barclay, son, unm, 27, puddler, B Calderbank, Lks
Mary Connelly, d, mar, 22, housekeeper, b. do
James Connelly, grdson, 5, b. do
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: 1pds on Friday 10 August 12 23:15 BST (UK)
I think it says:

"Widow of Henry Connelly. Labourer who died in Middlesboro' 16 years ago"
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Toptotty on Saturday 11 August 12 07:55 BST (UK)
Thanks everyone for your responses, that makes very interesting reading that she was living with her father -  I didn't even know she had a son to Henry so that's really interesting.  Mary Monaghan and my great grandfather  James Boyle seemed to have had all their children out of wedlock before marrying in 1906 which really confused me.  Could it be that Henry was missing, presumed dead and that they couldn't marry until he was found?  I'll need to try and find the death certificate to find out cause of death etc so Middlesborough it is then!  Thanks again everyone, don't know what I would do without you all!!!
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 11 August 12 09:34 BST (UK)
Not sure if you've seen the 1901 entry as you say you didn't know about the James Connelly:


11 Main Street, Greenock, Renfrewshire

James Boyle, widr, 36, general labourer, b. Old Monkland
Maggie, d, 4, b. Glasgow
William, s, 2, b. Greenock
Helen, d, 5 mths, b. do
James Monnachan, f in law, widr, 60, general labourer, b. Ireland
Mary Conelly, sister in law!, widow, 32, housekeeper, b. Old Monkland
James Connelly, nephew, 14, rivet boy - shipyard, b. Old Monkland
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Toptotty on Saturday 11 August 12 10:39 BST (UK)
Thanks Brevitas, that is definitely the right family, but I didn't know James Boyle was a widower, it doesn't say so on his marriage certificate to Mary (maybe a mistake?).  Now I'm really confused!  Mary Conelly, sister in law ??? Is this maybe just a wee white lie for dignity sake? James and Mary did marry in Greenock and as I said all their children were born out of wedlock.  The hunt goes on........ Thanks again Brevitas for giving me extra info, much appreciated.
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 11 August 12 12:44 BST (UK)
Yes I knew they'd married as I found it in the SP index. I think the term sister -in-law was for appearances sake. I see that he put down Mary's father as his father in law. He'd possibly described himself as a widower to explain his children.

Ooh, just a sudden thought, could James Boyle have possibly been married to a sister of Mary's thus the relationships would fit  :-\

Note also that 'in law' was used to describe a wider set of relationships in those days - including step ones.
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Toptotty on Saturday 11 August 12 13:51 BST (UK)
Don't think he was married before at all as on their marriage cert it states bachelor and Mary's name is on all the birth certificates as mum and he is on all of them as dad.  Now I'm getting addicted to finding out the truth behind why they couldn't or didn't marry before 1906. He was 39 and she was 37 when they married.  The plot thickens.......
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 11 August 12 14:09 BST (UK)
I'm thinking that they needed to wait until Henry died - or had proof that he had died or declared missing - wasn't there a 7 year rule before a person could be declared dead, or am I getting this mixed up. Do any of the other birth certs mention Henry Connelly?

I've been searching, with a wide time frame, for a death of Henry but nothing looks like him in Scotland or England or minor records.  He was a blast furnace labourer born circa 1859.

I've checked the Middlesbrough Gazette but nothing reported there  :-\

Added - do you have them on the 1911?
Title: Re: What does certificate say???
Post by: Toptotty on Sunday 12 August 12 07:06 BST (UK)
I know Brevitas, it's as if he just vanished without trace.  I can't find a death certificate for him anywhere.  I think you're right re the 7 year rule, I do remember something like that before someone could officially be declared dead, so perhaps they did have to wait until this time had passed before marrying. Henry's name is not on any of the children's certificates.  I'll need to get James Connelly's birth certificate from SP - I'm assuming that his name will definitely be on this certificate as he and Mary were married at the time of James' birth.   I don't have the family on the 1911 census yet, although I've spent quite a few credits trying to find them  ::)  I have death certificates from other relatives whereon it states if they were married before and James' death certificate (1948) just states one marriage (Mary Monaghan) so why he said widower on the census was probably as you say, for appearances sake because of the children.