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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Buttonphobic on Wednesday 08 August 12 10:17 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know about German gypsies in the 19th century? I have an ancestor that regularly travelled from his home town in Tries Germany to Brighton with a group of musicians? Wondering if this could be my gypsy link.
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It was certainly common in 18th century for German bands to travel overseas but that doesn't mean they were gypsies.
Correction: should read 19th century not 18th century :-[
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German gypsies were not uncommon in Scotland before the Great War. One group had their caravans diverted away from the Cromarty Firth by the police as they were suspected of spying on the naval base.
I remember seeing a photograph of them being escorted through Dingwall.
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Hi,
German Gypsies were sometimes called Black Dutch! [not so often as Black German] "Chicanere Roma" because of their skin colour a lot of the Black Dutch went to the New World mid 1700's some did come and settle in the British Isles most of them hid their Heritage, in the then New World they married with the natives and non white people's, Valentine/Valentyn was an early Dutch surname used by Gypsies, Lee [Leah] can be found in Northern Germany and I do believe that a Clan of the Boswells came from Holland you also had an influx of Hungarian Gypsies arrive around mid 1800's, borders were more open prior to 1900 no passports just free to rome but not so good for us researching our ancestors.
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It was certainly common in 18th century for German bands to travel overseas but that doesn't mean they were gypsies.
German gypsies were not uncommon in Scotland before the Great War
So he could be a german gypsy musician, or he could be just a german musician.
Can you supply names and any details you have, please.
regards,
Bob
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Hi' Again
A good starting point would be for you to reveal the surname or surnames that you are researching to us Root Chatters to see if we can help you some more.
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The pic' of the German Gypsies passing through Dingwall in 1907,
http://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/Features/Reflections/New-telephone-exchange-for-Munlochy-20062011.htm
Skoosh.
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The story of the Dingwall pic' http://alnessarchives.8m.com/page5.html
More of them in Galloway,
http://futuremuseum.co.uk/Collection.aspx/galloway_travellers/Object/german_gypsies
They were possibly here to escape persecution in Germany. Bismark sought a solution to the gypsy problem long before Hitler.
Skoosh.
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Thanks everyone for your help so far. My German ancestors are as follows
Casper Lemmer b 1817 in Treis an der Lumda, Germany
Johannes Adam Lemmer( Caspers father) b 1785 Winnen, Germany
married Elizabeth Grolz
Sebastian Lemmer (Johannes' father)b 1759 Leidenhofen, Germany
married Anna Catherine Wilhelm (born Winnen 1755)
Johann Peter Wilhelm (Anna's Farther) b 1724 Winnen
married Anna Frantz of Winnen
I obtained most of this information from parish and Lutheran church records.
Casper was a musician who along with around 20 other musicians from Treis travelled over here each year during the late 1830's.
There is however another German link because Casper's son Carl Printz Lemmer (myGreat Grandad) married the daughter of Johann Adolph Hermann. In 1881 The Hermanns were living in St Pancras . Johann was a cabinet maker who had been born in Germany but most of his children were born in Belgium. He was born in 1845 and eventually served time for cruelty to his wife, Someone on this forum kindly spotted this in an article in The Morning post on 18/4/1875. At the time he was living in Seaton Street (presumably London)I know nothing else about this family other than that my great grandmother was dark skinned! Anyone know how accessible prison records are from this era?
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Hi Again,
This may or may not be of interest, German Gypsies liked to play the Hackbut or Cobza which was struck with bells,there was a popular song that the german Gypsies sang:
Garder Wela! Garder Stela! Ab Miro tschabo ste!
I tarni romni dschalo,Mangel;I puri romni balo pop Priesterwela,
I tarni romni har i rosa,I puri romni har i dschamba,
I tarni romni weli tarno rom,I puri romni weli puro rom,
Woher komnt er,Woher springt er,Auf mein sohn und spring!
Die junge Frau geht,betteln geht bettelt,Die alte Frau hinterm ofen riestert,
Die junge Frau gleich einer Rose,Die alte Frau krigt einen alten Mann.
taken from "Through Romany Songland by Laura Alexandrine Smith"
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Good afternoon RootsChatters
I'm finding this topic particularly interesting as it may help to uncover a secret that a relatives family have been keeping. They have three generations of women who are very obviously of Deutch swartz descent but the subject is never discussed. I know that one of them, the middle generation, has suffered all her life for being 'different' and her own daughter was born with the gene. It may well go back to the beginning of the 20th century as described in the postings.
Does anyone know if the Scottish family Reid are linked to this heritage? it is a very sensitive subject as you can imagine and another relative linked to the family is trying to unravel some details about their past history.
Thanks
Briagh
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My Ancestor was Casper Lemmer's brother Heinrich who was one of the travelling musicians, and who also married and settled in London. Thanks for all this useful info about the family. Maybe the info I have about Heinrich will shed some light too - its all on Ancestry.com. Heinrich (Henry) Lemmer became a hairdresser, working and living at 140 Portnall Road, W1.
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Forgot to say, I was particularly interested in the bit where you mention an ancestor was 'dark skinned'. Did you mean black or just had dark colouring??
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Hi Tricia
Thanks for replying. Haven't done any researching for a while but when I restart I'll take a look at Henry and co on Ancestor, if I remember how to. By dark skinned I mean tanned. We look very Italian or Romanian looking. If this didn't apply to Henry, it might mean the colouring has come from someone later marrying into my line.
Do you know anything more about The brothers German ancestor?
Regards
Mark
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We are very Italian looking and have Thalassaemia (Mediterranean Anaemia) which clearly indicates some blood from there. My grandma used to say "we have Corsican cousins" but I never knew where they came from.
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Hi. Just noticed your posts. There where lots of German Romany. Which are sinte. Clan. Who came to Britain. In 19th century. Some would have been musically talented. They tended to sell pots etc. And had larger living wagons. There are lots of photos on internet sites. Liverpool uni. has some good ones. But most were hawkers. Dealers. In various items. There are many trades gypsies did. All recognizable. Not many music related. Or generic. I.e. cabinet maker. Spinner. Etc. There are many dark skinned Romany folks.But Also fair skinned. Large genes pool. Picked up travelling around. Asia.Europe. so not allways a sign of ethnicity being dark. Skinned. Except for the Roma. Eastern Europe gypsies. In British Romany folks we are nearly all Rom clan/ tribe. I can trace my own family in records back to 16th century. But we have a great oral records. We know who we are. By the way.There are Reid's in Scots travelling folks. I have lots of replies. In my posts with info. Feel free to search. We are a secretive people. Had to be. So hidden ethnicity is common. Not much but it all adds up. Keep looking. Cushty bocht. Good luck.Rob
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German gypsies were the cause of a spying scare on the Cromarty Firth before the Great War, the fleet was anchored off Invergordon and the "Polis" diverted their caravans away from the naval base.
Skoosh.
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The sinti are a Romany tribe that had originally called themselves Manouches or Manus which in Romany simply means Human Being and for reasons unsure in the early 1700's they started to call themselves Sinti perhaps to distance themselves from other Romany tribes as they had no formal Romany tongue but spoke another known as Abrussese but they did refer to it as Romanes meaning in a Romany Way, they do not use the term Rom to describe themselves or a Romany man but they do refer to other Romany tribes as Sinti Rom, the term Sinti started in Germanic speaking lands in central Europe but other Romany tribes across Hungry, in Serbia, in Russia, and also Spain, in France they usually referred to themselves as Manouches but some now use the term Sinti, the Sinti share the modern Romany Flag that some Romany tribes such as the Kalderasa also known as Kale do not recognise and some Kaderash tribes do not consider the Sinti to be Romany at all as they do not adhere to any Romany Lore, it has been suggested that the term is derived from Sindi in India as far back as the early 1800's but many historians have dismissed this, though some of their Tales are set in the Sind,,,
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Though I like to research before 1900 in Germany in the early 1930's was a Gypsy Boxer named Johann Trollmann he was also known as the Boxer Dancer and also as Rukli this name referred to his Sinti roots, he was killed or perhaps I should say murdered by Hitler's Mob who did not like the idea of a Gypsy winning fights against an Aryan race.
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Romanys/Gypsies titles are misnomers. They were originally highly talented singers/dancers from northern India. This was a thousand years ago or more. They were invited to live in Persia by the Shah? Eventually, they lost their attraction and were told to leave the country. They wandered into Europe and Romania was one route in and many settled. Hence the name Romany's. They first appeared in England in 14something. We called them Gypsies, a corruption of Egyptians because that's the best we could do at the time.
They were banished from England at some date like the Jews before them, but it might not have happened. I remember it recorded that 'bloody' Queen Mary stated that they could stay if they weren't 'naughty'.
Relatively recently, a professor of linguistics from Oxford University sought out dark skinned 'Romany's' and enquired about their vocabulary. From that, he realised their Indian ancestry. However, I have read elsewhere that this was realised a lot earlier than 20 - 30 years ago.
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Though I like to research before 1900 in Germany in the early 1930's was a Gypsy Boxer named Johann Trollmann he was also known as the Boxer Dancer and also as Rukli this name referred to his Sinti roots, he was killed or perhaps I should say murdered by Hitler's Mob who did not like the idea of a Gypsy winning fights against an Aryan race.
Hi Romany Knaves. I would message you via the chat but there seems to be an error on the website. I was wondering if you could help. I am writing my dissertation on the dying age of Nomads and tying it in with todays social culture. My Grandfather passed before I had the honour of meeting him but he himself was a traditional romany traveller. I have grown hearing wonderful story's of our family's endless pilgrimage but sadly have no photographs. I am interested in all of my heritage and was wondering if you have any imagery I could look at? it would be great talking to you!
Shelby
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Thanks guys for inviting me on here.
As to a little help for buttonphobic, and Tricia lemmer, on their posts.
My grandad was in fact Carl printz lemmer, my great grandfather was casper printz lemmer, the musician along with his brother Heinrich.
After many years of searching and enlisting my cousin and good friend we finally found out who my father was, this was an horrendous task as I found out later that his identity changed a few times , and the names he went under were just alliases due to being a navy and army intelligence officer for the M.O.D.
His real identity was Carl Burt lemmer born 1932 son of Carl printz lemmer, my grandad married a lady called Mabel Elizabeth hermann , in turn they had a son called (this is another section of the family that often gets messy or confusing) Printz Carl Albert lemmer, my dad's half brother.
Mabel either died or they were divorced but I came across someone else on another site who was related to grandad and Mabel's son.
My grandad was actually marching on in years 64 I believe,we have all come to the conclusion that the lady in question,Evelyn Alma blanch stewardson may possibly have been a maid come lover as she was only 24 years old in 1932 and although I now possess all the relevant documents there is no marriage certificate available.
We have most of my father's past now as well and he has turned out to be a serial marriage monster and heartbreaker.
Alma goes on to marry a gentleman officer Riley George Huxley when grandad dies, and changes his name to Huxley at the age of 11 yes old.
Through my father's last wife ,we have met and I now have photos and more documentation.
Through DNA I have found a sister Stella to my dad, and in turn she has a document that tells of another sister which we have not found yet Jane Huxley , Chippenham, Wiltshire mother's name Margaret goth and Jane was born 1957,
Heinrich Henry lemmer I'm still working on even though I have quite a bit on him as he had nine children I believe.
Casper printz lemmer although records show he was married to Charlotte butt, she passed at the age of 40 and he re married a Alice Woolly in 1900, she has articles in her own right as she is mentioned in a couple off good write ups to do with the suffragette movement guys.