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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: andy_smed on Sunday 05 August 12 13:58 BST (UK)
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Hi all
Just having another pot at finding my Great Grandmother, Sarah Green.
Sarah I believe was born about 1853 in Whitechapel, London. I have tried to find her previously but still am not convinced I have the correct person. Sarah married my Great Grandfather Joseph Smith on the 27 April 1874, according to the marriage cert her occupation was a Box Maker, her father was a William Green, Earthenware Dealer. I have found Sarah and Joseph in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census where she states in all that she was born in Whitechapel and her ages point to 1853.
I have kindly had some information from rootschat before but am still not entirely sure. I had previous information that seemed to suggest that Sarah's mother was Jane in 1871 census and another suggestion that she was staying with a family called Turpin in 1871. The 1871 census suggesting that her mother was Jane seemed to match up as the fathers name was William and he was a China Dealer, and Sarah was described as a Box Maker.
All seemed fine until I searched FreeBMD for Sarah Green born 1852-1854 in Whitechapel and found only one so I odered the cert. When it came I had Sarah Green born 3rd Sept 1852 fathers name William Green occupation Hawker but mother Sarah Green Formerly Turpin so I seem to have found the wrong Sarah Green from the 1871 census.
Any help or advice would be much appeciated
Thanks
Andy
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Hi Andy,
I think you are being a little dismissive of information you have got and
not trying to be a detective to piece it together.
You have the Father of Sarahs name and his occupation. That is a good
thing to have. Dont forget in those days most people could not read or
write and the scribe just put on the census what they told him so you
have to be a little flexible with it. Especially years, names and ages.
A Hawker and a dealer of Earthenware are more than likely the same job.
Hawkers sold their wares by going from door to door or standing in the
street. They sold pots and plates as people in the Markets do nowadays.
I have not found the Mother Jane that you mentioned but there is a Ann.
It would not be unusual for a Sarah Ann to use her middle name when they
now had a daughter called Sarah plus it could have been written down wrongly
or it was her nickname?
In the 1961 census there is the following
William Green aged 40 born about 1821 Hawker China Wares, born Bethnal Green
Ann Green 33 1828 Tailoress " "
Sarah 9 1852 Shoreditch
John 8 1853 Whitechapel.
All these places are in the East End and are classed as being in the Tower Hamlets
registration district. They are all within walking distance of each other.
Plus you could be born in one area and christened in a Church of your
preference in another area.
I think the birth certificate you applied for is a good guess at your Sarah
Sarah Green born 3rd September 1852 christened at St Matthias Bethnal Green
on 26th September 1852. Parents are William and Sarah living at 5 Devonshire Place.
Williams occupation is a Hawker.
You dont mention how old Sarah is on her wedding certificate? Was she of age?
Does it state what parish they are living in?
regards Sandymc
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Hi,
Another important peice of information is that the witnesses at Sarah's marriage to Joseph were John & Margaret Green.
Sharon
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Possible witnesses
St James the Great Bethnal Green 2/2/1874
John Green Hawker Bethnal Green father William -Hawker
Margaret Russon father Joseph deceased
Witnesses Sarah Welch & Emma Edwards (prof. witness)
Jennifer
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Hi Again
Thanks for the advice regarding this, I wouldnt say I was being dismissive of the information I have received, on the contrary, without the help of all the rootschaters out there my research wouldnt be half as accurate I am sure. As I have mentioned before my problem is not with the information from previous posts but it is with trying to match it up to my family.
A previous poster sent me the following information
1871 census
Rg10/404 folio 43 page 21
129 Whitecross Sr. St Lukes
William Green age 43 China Dealer b St. Lukes
Jane wife age 30 b Spitalfields
John son age 20 China Dealer b Spitalfields
Sarah dau age 19 Box maker b Whitechapel
Oscar son age 13 b Spitalfields
Henry son age 7 b ditto
Mary Loyd age 20 Servant b St Lukes
James Rice age 15 Servant b ditto
Thomas Russon age 19 b ditto
This seems to tie in with my family more closly than the family that SandyMC has found. William Green, China Dealer & Sarah Born around 1852 in Whitechapel and what confirmed it for me was that she is a Box Maker here and on her marriage certificate. I dont have the family before this or after this.
I will dig out the marriage cert later to see if there is anything else that may help.
Thanks again
Andy
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Hi Andy
Looking at the 1871 census I would say that Jane is his second wife and probably Henry is there first child together
Margp
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Hi MargP
Sorry, forgot to mention that there was some confusion about Jane's age, I have seen the original transcript and would say its difficult to see if Jane is 30 or 38 during the 1871 census. So you may be correct that she is the second wife if she is only 30.
I love researching my family tree but sometimes it is infuriating!!
Andy
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My thoughts too MargP :)
Looking for an Oscar in 1861 with a different surname and mother Jane might help. Will have a look later on this afternoon.
Kath
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Hi Again
Ok, I have just dug out the marriage certificate for Joseph and Sarah and at the time of their marriage Sarah was living at 129 Whitecross Street, same address as the 1871 census I posted previously. I have to say that until this moment I had not realised that before. So that confirms that that is the family so where does that leave me again?
lol
Andy
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What a tangled web! However, I agree that that Jane is a second wife and have found the following:
William Green, widower, Hawker, son of George Green, Hairdresser married Jane Griffiths, widow, dau. of Joseph Law, Fishmonger on 25/1/1863 St. Lukes, Middlesex - the address for both is given as 'White Cross' which ties in with the address on 1871 Census.
Therefore, I would say the 1871 Census details you have for Sarah with William and Jane is spot on.
The Sarah with Thomas and Susan Turpin is in 1861, not 1871, and she is shown as aged 8. Thomas and Susan - per 1851 Census, ref.HO107 - 1542 (or 1842, can't read my own writing) - 398 - 32, had a dau. Sarah bc.1834 - she may be the Sarah Turpin married to William Green and thus Sarah Green was actually their grand-daughter.
Have found a record of the marriage of William Green and Sarah Turpin in familysearch but only the bare details given: married 18/7/1852 St. Thomas, Stepney.
Although I can't find them on 1861 Census, an Oscar Griffiths birth is recorded in the Dec.qtr.1857 Shoreditch which fits with him being Jane's son.
So, sometime between Sarah's birth in 1852 and 1863, Sarah Green, nee Turpin, died and young Sarah lived with Thomas and Susan Turpin, who were either her grandparents or some other relative.
As the meerkats would say 'Simples'!
Annette
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Lovely detangling Annette!
With regard to the marriage in 1852, both are of full age, profession of William is Hearth Rug Weaver and both resided in Stepney. Father of William is listed as George Green, Hair Dresser and Father of Sarah is Thomas Turpin, Painter & Glazier. Both bride and groom signed with a cross. Struggling to read the witness names, but could be John Powell Hughlings and Eleanor Hooper!
Kath
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I've just found the full details of that marriage too and I agree completely with the names of the witnesses.
Annette
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Hi MargP
Sorry, forgot to mention that there was some confusion about Jane's age, I have seen the original transcript and would say its difficult to see if Jane is 30 or 38 during the 1871 census. So you may be correct that she is the second wife if she is only 30.
I love researching my family tree but sometimes it is infuriating!!
Andy
Hi Andy I have looked at the original 1871 census I think that she is 30 if you look at the previous page there is very definite 8
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Well done Annette and Kath
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Hi All
Can I just thank everyone that has contributed to this thread as this has been one of those searches that has really been frustrating. Special thanks to Annette and Kath for all of that brilliant information today.
Dont know what we would do without you.
Thanks
Andy
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Just for completeness, as it were:
William Green bp.17/10/1825 St. Leonards Shoreditch, son of George and Ann of New Inn Yards, Hairdresser
Harriet Green bp. same day ditto
Sarah Turpin, b.5/12/1833, bp.27/12/1833 St. Leonards, Shoreditch, dau. of Thomas and Susan of Holywell Lane, Painter.
Annette
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Thanks again Annette very grateful
Andy
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One last request for this one, just trying to make the most of such a brilliant day yesterday,
Would it be possible for someone to do an 1851 lookup for Thomas Turpin and his wife Susan to see if I can catch any other family members?
And also a 1841 lookup for George Green and Wife Ann, children William and Harriet, was it unusual for George to have been a Hairdresser at that time?
Thanks
Andy
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Sarah Turpin, b.5/12/1833, bp.27/12/1833 St. Leonards, Shoreditch, dau. of Thomas and Susan of Holywell Lane, Painter.
Would it be possible for someone to do an 1851 lookup for Thomas Turpin and his wife Susan to see if I can catch any other family members?
Family search has following pedigree resource file for a Thomas Turpin (5 children named) - you would need to verify info.
Marriage 30 May 1830 Spitafields
Thomas Turpin to Susannah Cox
(Thomas born 1808 Norton Folgate Middx, Susannah b1818 mother Mary b1773)
William born 17 Jul ch 8 Aug 1841 (43 Grey Eagle St Christchurch Spitalfields )
Sarah b1834, Thomas b1839, Mary Ann b1846 & John b1844
Sorry don't have access to complete census to give full details hopefully someone can give you further info. this looks to be a possiblility for Thomas Turpin 1841c
1841 Whitechapel Spitafields
Thos Turpin 30 Painter & Glazier
Susannah 28
Sarah 8
? 7
Thos 2
1851 c London
Thomas Turpin 1808 Norton Folgate Painter
1871c London
Thomas Turpin 1808 pob :-\ Painter Journeyman
Possible christenings of other TURPIN children (source family search)
Susan born 29 Oct ch 21 Nov 1831 St Leoanards Shoreditch (Thomas & Susan)
Sarah born 5 Dec ch 27 Dec 1833 St Leonards Shoreditch (Thomas & Susan)
Mary Ann b 1 Jan ch 23 Jan 1837 St Leonards Shoreditch (Thomas & Susannah)
Thomas ch.12 Sep 1838 Christchurch Spitafields (Thomas & Susannah)
John ch 23 Jun 1844 Christchurch (Thomas & Susan)
Mary Ann ch 21 Feb 1847 Christchurch (Thomas & Susannah)
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1851 - Gt George St, Bethnal Green (H01707; Piece 1542; Folio 398; Page 32)
Thomas Turpin, Head, Mar, 43, Painter, Middlesex, Norton Folgate
Susan " , Wife " , 38, " , Spitafields
Sarah " , Daug, U , 17, Tailoress " , Bethnal Green
Thos " , Son, 13, Scholar " "
William " , Son, 10 " " "
John " , Son 7 " " "
Mary Ann " , Daug 5 " " "
Mary Coy, Wifes Mother Wid, 78 Spitafields
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Mary Coy, Wifes Mother Wid, 78 Spitafields
Could surname by COX?
Susannah Cox born 14 Dec 1812 ch 12 Jan 1813 St Leonards Shoreditch
Parents John Cox & Mary (family search)
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Yes the surname could definitely be Cox, the x is written at a slant, making it look like a y!!
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1841 lookup for George Green and Wife Ann, children William and Harriet, was it unusual for George to have been a Hairdresser at that time?
possible christening for George Green
George Green born 29 Mar 1790 ch 4 Apr 1792 St Mary St Marylebone Rd London
Parents William Green & Ann
Perhaps Kath would kindly give you full details of 1841 census for George :)
1841c London
George Green 1791 Hairdresser
William Green bp.17/10/1825 St. Leonards Shoreditch, son of George and Ann of New Inn Yards, Hairdresser
Harriet Green bp. same day ditto
Just for info. (family search)
William Green born 22 Mar 1822 & Harriet Green born 24 Jan 1825
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1841 Census - Hare St, Bethnal Green
John Bailey, 35 Weaver
Catherine " , 35
Sarah " , 15
Catherine " , 13
Mary " , 9
John " , 6
William ", 4
Amelia " , 7 month
George Green, 50, Hair Dresser
George is separated by a single slash to the Bailey household, so may just be lodging and no connection to the family, will try and look some more, but frustratingly keep losing my internet connection!
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1851 Census - 90 Thorne St, Bethnal Green, London
George Green widr. 65 Hair Dresser b.St. Mary Newington, Surrey
Mary Ann Green dau. 20 b. Bethnal Green
James Cushway Relation 29 widr. Hand Loom Weaver Silk b. Bethnal Gn.
Mary Cushway dau. 3 ditto
Sarah Cushway relation 20 b. Spitalfields
Ref. HO107 - 1542 - 322 - 9
So, according to this, George bc.1786 at St. Mary Newington, Surrey so not the baptism already mentioned in 1790 at Marylebone.
Annette
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Tried really hard to post the 1851 census details earlier, but internet kept crashing, but glad I couldn't, as I could not make out the word Newington - well done Annette :) I did read the street address as Hare Street though!
Sarah Cushway marries in 1853 - address listed as 90 Hare St, father named as James Cushway, weaver deceased.
Kath
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Ok, found the Cushway connection. George Green's daughter Harriet married James Cushway in 1844. Father confirmed as Hairdresser and address is Hare St.
Kath
Added: Witnesses were Ann Green and Sarah Cushway
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George Green bp.10/10/1784 St. Mary Newington, son of George and Mary.
Looks a good possibility for George.
Annette
PS - I'm finding it's not the Internet itself that's crashing, only Rootschat.
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Hi All
Again cant thank you enough for your time and enthiusiasm to help those in Family Tree need.
I am very grateful to you all and will leave you in peace, for now!
Andy