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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Devon => England => Devon Lookup Requests => Topic started by: suejim on Sunday 05 August 12 13:17 BST (UK)
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Please could someone have a look for a marriage for Sampson Harris to Charlotte Augusta Ryan. Child Sarah Hannah Born in 1838 in Stoke Damerel. Many thanks.
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Hi
Not an easy one.
A couple of long shots for you to ponder, FreeBMD:
Marriage Reg.
Q4 1837 Samuel Harris & X, Stoke Damerel. V 9, P 532.
Q3 1842 Richard Harris & (possibly, though there are others) Agnes Ryan, Stoke Damerel. V 9, P 443.
Birth Reg.
Q2 1838 Mary Harris, Stoke Damerel. V 9, P 434.
Considerations:
They could have married before Q3 1837, which means they wouldn't be on the FreeBMD.
Names are open to error or variants and therefore transcribed incorrectly as you see them.
People can be born/live in one area and be baptised/married in another.
Geoff
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I'll mull over your suggestions, many thanks.
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Sarah Hannah HARRIS was baptised 11 Feb 1838 at Stoke Damerel Church. Father a mariner.
The 1841 census shows a candidiate for Sampson aged 51 living at Sancreed, Cornwall HO107 piece 144 folio 14/36 page 8.
Also in 1841, Charlot HARRIS, 2; Jno HARRIS 7 and Sarah HARRIS 3 living in household of Mary HANCOCK in Stoke Damerel HO107 piece 275 folio 8 page 10.
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Hi
Yeah, makes sense, I should have realised that the 1838 'birth' could have been a baptism and probably born before civil reg's, nice find.
Geoff
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Hey , you are good. I already had the baptism for Sarah Hannah, but the father being a mariner confirms it is correct, many thanks. Now how about 1851 census? My great grandfather Sampson should have been in that one, son of Charlotte Augusta and Sampson born Woolwich 1849. Later in the year of 1851 the next child Frederick Horatio was born in Mile Town, Sheppey. I have been through Sheppey house by house and not found them.
Sue
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Hmmm - a Charlotte Augusta HARRIS' death was registered in Sheppey in Sept qtr 1854 - mother or daughter?
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That is the mother of Sampson, born 1849 the only thing I know about her apart from her death is that she was born in about 1818, no idea where!
Sue
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My guess is Ireland and that is possibly where Sampson met and married her.
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Sadly you could well be right, any tips on finding Irish records?
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In case it's of interest, this could be your Sampson's baptism -- the 1841 census does indicate that he was born in Cornwall c1790:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=2099195
Son of Peter Bown Harris and Ann, baptised 31 Dec 1790 at Budock. Peter Bown Harris was baptised 1766 in Mawnan, father Sampson, mother Mary Bown, is how it looks -- you can search the databases there and see the various records.
But your question was about 1851. ;)
Here is Sarah Hannah Harris, I think:
Sarah H Harris, 14 (c1836-37), born Devonport, scholar at boarding school, Woolwich, Woolwich Arsenal.
The head of household is a widow and her daughter is the schoolmistress. It's quite a nice neighbourhood; the previous household has servants who include a governess and a lady's maid. The next household is headed by a private tutor and inhabited by gentlemen preparing for the army.
This doesn't help find the rest of the family, unfortunately. But I'm thinking ... it's kind of looking like it may have broken up.
There is a Sampson Harris, 60, mariner, born Creed, Cornwall, in Megavissey, Cornwall, who bears a strong resemblance to the Sampson noted in the 1841 census. With wife Mary.
There aren't a lot of Sampson Harris-s in the BMD records. Megavissey is in St Austell reg dist. A Sampson Harris died there in 1858, before ages were recorded. After ages were recorded, there is no death of an SH of the right age. Mind, a Sampson Harris did die in Bermondsey in 1853, and I don't see that person in 1851.
Do you know any more about the family? Births/baptisms of children, death dates ... ?
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Charlotte Augusta Harris burial, 1854 Sheerness:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J8S3-F6B
Baptism of son Frederic Horatio Harris, 25 Feb 1852, Sheerness
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJQK-82D
Baptism of son James Richard Harris, 10 Nov 1852, Sheerness:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N1D1-HL3
for info.
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Sampson is in multiple trees at Ancestry/Mundia with some bizarre info ... born in Creed 1790, lived in Megavissey -- that makes him the one I identified in 1851 -- died in 1832. Hm.
Father Peter Bown Harris, mother Anne Nicholls, wife Mary Anna (Marianna) Kempthorne 1793 Megavissey. Which, again, makes him the one I identified in 1851.
So the tree I'm looking at has him dying in 1832, and residing in Megavissey in 1851.
Oh good. The next one has him born Budock 1790, marrying the same woman, and being a clergyman.
Just a lot of bizarre mutually contradictory info.
http://www.mundia.com -- sign up, search and send messages for free (the trees are mirrors of trees at ancestry.com).
So either we've been looking at the wrong Sampson Harris starting with that 1841 census, or something is wondrously screwy somewhere. Or, possibly, Sampson had a "wife" in every port ........
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Sampson Harris was born in 1812 in Plymouth, son of John and Elizabeth Harris. He was a chief engineer in the navy and the only census I have him in is 1861 when he has remarried and had more children with Mary Maunder. He died in 1866. I have his naval record but it shows no marriage, in fact it starts when he is quite old so I think there may be one earlier, can't find that!
Thankyou to everyone prepared to look!
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I am quite sure the census for 1851 showing Sarah H Harris at school is the correct one, many thanks for that. It confirms they were still in that area in 1851, but where is Sampson born 1849!!!!!!! AAAAH! I had a look around the area, very interesting, lots of children at boarding school with some wonderful names. Perhaps my lot were in the six or seven homes uninhabited and away on the night concerned. Amazingly I have only just found James Richard and Sarah Hannah it shows how many more records are coming on line.
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Hi Sue
I'll ask before writing more ::)
Do you have his details in 1861 and marriage to Mary 1858?
Geoff
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Yes, I have marriage to Mary and 1861 census, baptism etc all I really need is marriage to Charlotte Augusta and the whereabouts of them in 1851. I am grateful for any help!
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Ok, thanks.
Geoff
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I should have mentioned that there were 2 possible Mary's for 1858, I was wondering if you knew which was the correct one.
Geoff
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Sorry you have lost me! I have the correct marriage in 1858 to Mary Maunder. If only they all had two or three Christian names it would make it all so much easier. ;)
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It probably doesn't impact too much since it is after 1851, but there is a marriage for Sampson Harris and Mary Maunder or Mary Ann Nancarrow with the same reg details, V 5b, P 637.
Geoff
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I have the dertificate, it's Mary Maunder, why can't it all be simple. ???
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Now just to clarify -- DOB7 posted:
"The 1841 census shows a candidiate for Sampson aged 51 living at Sancreed, Cornwall HO107 piece 144 folio 14/36 page 8."
and that is the Sampson I was then following around:
"There is a Sampson Harris, 60, mariner, born Creed, Cornwall, in Megavissey, Cornwall, who bears a strong resemblance to the Sampson noted in the 1841 census. With wife Mary."
and that is the wrong Sampson Harris in both years.
At least he's ruled out -- leaving you with no Sampson in a census in either 41 or 51.
I do wish you had said earlier:
"Sampson Harris was born in 1812 in Plymouth, son of John and Elizabeth Harris."
(and also about the remarriage) because that is the information that is needed when searching for someone, and I just assumed you didn't know.
I would imagine Sampson was on vessels a lot of the time (a search in 1851 using "vessels" as civil parish doesn't turn him up either).
These are the 1861 details in Devon St Andrew, which could help with searching:
Sampson Harris, 48, Engineer RN, Devonport
Mary A, 33, Tavistock
Frederick, 9, Sheerness
Elizabeth A, 7, Sheerness
with a visiting RN engineer and his much younger wife and her daughter, and a house servant.
Sampson Jr was away at school? Yes, in Greenwich.
Is there an address on the 1851 birth certificate, btw?
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Hi
Not alone in this quest ?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,39162.0.html
Geoff
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It looks as though Sampson H Sr., was an engineer/inspector of some kind. See link below and scroll down to; 16 January 1866.
http://www.pdavis.nl/ShowShip.php?id=140
Geoff
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Well that's interesting -- from the other thread:
"Thankyou Bryant and Casalguidi for your help and advice. I do have the birth cert of Sampson Edward Harris with both parents names and RAYN is the name for mothers maiden name, however we know that could be open to interpretation! I did look for the 1851 census for the address where S.E.Harris was born and there was a family called RAINE living there. The couple were old enough to have been the parents of Charlotte Augusta RAYN but I cannot confirm this."
But we do have the name RYAN from other birth certificates, right?
Someplace in the last day I have run into the name Rayn/Raine in searches, I just have no idea in connection with what ...
It would make perfect sense for Charlotte to have been from the Sheerness area herself, and lived there while Sampson was at sea.
Maybe Sue knows the names and address and would tell us. I do so like it when people make full disclosure! Trying to help in searches w/o all the info that is available is like having a hand tied behind one's back ...
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I didn't comment on it myself as I'm not sure what else Sue will come up with to counter it!
Geoff
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In my defence! I did only ask if anyone could find the marriage of Sampson and Charlotte Augusta, I have everything else basically! Sorry to have been such a nuisance.
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Sue, it's just that you having everything else doesn't help anybody else to help you.
It's important to know things like all the dates and places relating to the people in question, to know when and where to be looking. It really is like playing blind man's bluff.
The other poster didn't answer the question about the Raines at the address where the birth took place ... and also didn't respond further here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,50909.msg202230.html
or here ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,49946.0.html
but I'd certainly try to send a message to that person.
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I see your point! Sampson Harris was born 1812 in Devonport and baptised Stoke Damerel, son of John Harris, a smith by trade and Elizabeth (Hicks?). By 1849 Sampson was an engineer in the Royal Navy so obviously joined quite some time before that although the records I have start there.
He had a daughter with Charlotte Augusta Ryan, Sarah Hannah who was baptised in
Stoke Damerel in 1838, she married twice and died in Wandsworth in 1891 and was buried in Norwood cemetery.
Sampson's son Sampson Edward was born in 1849 in Woolwich and baptised there in the same year. Sampson Edward was in the Greenwich hospital school in 1861. He was married in Plymouth in 1870 to Elizabeth Viney Simpson. Sampson Edward was also in the navy and he and his six children, Armeda Cecilia, Sampson John George, Frederick Henry Viney, Cecil James Viney, Gwendoline Melita Viney and Lilian Mabel Viney Harris ended up in Portsmouth where he died in 1916.
Sampson's son Frederick Horatio Harris was born in 1851 in Wood Street, Mile Town, Minster, Sheppey and baptised in Sheerness in 1852. In 1861 he was living with his father and stepmother in Plymouth. Frederick was a chemist or worked for a chemist all his life. He married Elizabeth Phoebe Woodbridge in 1873. She was born 1850ish, age at marriage, father George Louis Woodbridge, can't find them yet.
In 1883 he married Mary Ann Hardy Fordham and had Sampson Charles Frederick, James Hotatio John, Alexander George Vincent and Charles Augustus Sydney. In 1892 he married Sarah Jane Elizabeth Dolman and had Freda Jane Mary and May Emma Charlotte. He died in 1912 in Bermondsey.
Sampson's son James Richard Harris was born 1852 in Chapel Street, Mile Town, Sheerness and died 1859 Chapel Street, Tavistock.
Sampson's daughter Elizabeth Ann was born in 1853 in Chapel Street, Mile Town Sheerness and in 1861 was with her brother Frederick Horatio and father and stepmother in Tavistock. She married George Augustus Coutney Webb in 1871 in Stoke Damerel and had Bessie Isabel Maud before being divorced by him. She then married Albert James Walter Neville in Portsmouth in 1886 and had Guy and Cecily Neville. She died in 1930 in The Isle of Wight.
It was only when I discovered Elizabeth Ann and Frederick Horatio and sent for their birth certificates that I discovered their mother's name was Ryan. These were photocopies of the original whereas that of Sampson Edward had been transcribed wrongly as Rayn. I have looked for the marriage as Rayn and Ryan.
Charlotte Augusta in 1854 in Chapel Street, Mile Town, Sheerness. I have looked for them in Sheerness in 1851 with no success.
Sampson was married in 1858 in Tavistock to Mary Maunder, presumably poor Sampson Edward was one child too many to care for and was sent to the Greenwich hospital school. His big sister Sarah Hannah was at boarding school in Woolwich in 1851, can't find her in 1861.
Sampson's son Charles Joshua Joseph was born in 1861 in Plymouth and he went on to be a surgeon and died in 1939 in Ennerdale. He had been awarded a medal for his work in a mining accident. Mary Hannah Harris Sampson's daughter was born in1863 and died in 1868 in Plymouth and Sampson George Victor, yet another Sampson, was born in Plymouth in 1865 in Plymouth. He also became a surgeon and was to be found in Whitehaven with his brother Charles in a few census. He died in 1950 in Leytonstone, Essex.
Do you think Sampson was away a long time between the birth of Sarah Hannah and Sampson Edward, or are there more children somewhere?!
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Sue, I was trying to post this yesterday when my internet provider decided to experience a "major outage" right in the middle of a search I was trying to do to confirm the Charlottes below, that lasted until at least when I went to sleep! (about 5 a.m. UK time ;) ) And it's still on go slow.
Thanks for that rundown. Any idea who the Raines in 1851 were? Ah, but you do have the other documents saying RYAN rather than Rayn, and that is very good to know, so they can really be ruled out.
So what I was saying was ...
In reply 3, DOB7 said:
"Also in 1841, Charlot HARRIS, 2; Jno HARRIS 7 and Sarah HARRIS 3 living in household of Mary HANCOCK in Stoke Damerel"
I suspect an error in the census book.
The three are out of order by age -- the youngest, Charlot, is ahead of the two others (who are in the correct order by age). (Children were sometimes listed out of chronological order, but almost always only if the boys were listed first and then the girls, or if there were stepchildren involved). I think Charlot's age may have been transcribed incorrectly from the household schedule.
I suspect that Charlot "2" is actually Charlotte, the mother of Sarah and presumably John, and she was really 20-something, most likely 25 by census age (born 1812-1816). If she were 28, say, a 7-yr-old child would be entirely possible. John Harris shows as not born in county. That Sarah does fit, and John being born out of county would probably fit too.
No Charlot* Harris birth was registered in the Plymouth/Devonport area from mid-1837 to 1840 -- there were Charlotte births in Torrington (may have died 1840), Southmolton (in the 1841), Newton Abbot (in the 1841) and St Thomas (unlikely? but she's not in the 1841 otherwise).
It's a possibility, anyhow!
Were Sampson and Charlotte known to have any children older than Sarah Hannah? John could be a child who did not survive to 1851 -- or could be in a boarding school somewhere as Sarah was (or in the military himself by then, e.g.). I imagine all the children had that kind of education.
Btw one of those other threads mentioned that the Greenwich Hospital School was for children of naval personnel, I think - Greenwich Pensioners were the naval equivalent of Chelsea Pensioners, and the Greenwich Hospital was their base (and presumably they later had in-pensioners and out-pensioners too). Yes, here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Hospital_School
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Hi Sue
Many thanks for the background info.
When I was checking the Mary's re., Sampson's 2nd marriage it got me thinking about Mary Hancock in Dob's 1841 census find. I'm inclined to go with Janey on this one but keep an open mind on Charlotte aged 2. John aged 7 would put the marriage to at least 1834, assuming they married and prior to his birth.
There's probably more than one error in the 1841 census, Mary Hancock is actually Mary Haniack (looking at the original copy), there is also a possibility that she was a Mary Harris and married a John/Thomas Hanwick/Henwick (lost the entry now, will find it). I'm sure there was an Irish connection, too.
If there is RC involvement it may require checking RC marriage records for Sampson ???
Family Search has: 19 Apr 1772 Mary d. of Phillip Harris & Mary, Stoke Damerel, bap. (though will need checking). It fits in with the 1841 census if the correct one.
My point to this line is wondering why Sampson and Charlotte would leave young children with apparent strangers. If Mary Haniack/Hancock was a parent/grandparent it would make sense, but so would Janey's theory.
Geoff
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Looking at your question of 'Sampson & Sarah being away between Sarah and Sampson Edward's birth and other children' - I think it would firstly require clarification of the Charlot/te in the 1841 census, i.e. mother or daughter! Though that doesn't necessarily mean further children weren't born at some point.
Geoff
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I see I've fallen behind while waiting for my miserable internet (I'm with one of Canada's two giant ISPs, and it seems they have a problem that has been spreading countrywide since last week ...) -- but I'll go ahead and post what I've been puddling with in the interim. ;)
One to consider.
Charlotte Harris, wife, married, 42, mariner's wife, born Strood, Kent, living in Gravesend, Kent. Her place of birth is a ditto to the neighbour's.
With her are a John Mason, 41, and Elizabeth Mason, 39, Elizabeth being sister of Charlotte, and John a labourer.
The household also has Elizabeth Harrington 13, niece of Charlotte Harris (so presumably a child of Elizabeth Mason from before her marriage to John Mason) and Mason children John 12, Harriet 6, Henry 3 and Charlotte 1.
One to think about. Unfortunately, I don't see a Harrington-Mason marriage, and if Elizabeth Mason had a previous marriage to Harrington, it would have been before registration. But if you really wanted to pursue that possibility, Charlotte Mason's birth was registered in Gravesend Sep quarter 1849 and that would give her mother's surname. Her christening shows her mother was Elizabeth Mary.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N6KY-YHG
There is one Ryan in Strood in 1841: Michael Ryan, 61, born in Ireland, Army Pensioner, in a lodging house.
In 1851 in Milton near Gravesend, Kent, there are William Ryan born c1815 in Devonport and his wife Ann, with children born in London. He is a Customs something? Master (as is his neighbour, which I also can't read). That's possibly interesting. And of course there are numerous Irish and other Ryans of that and the previous generation in the vicinity, many probably with military connections.
Now, contradicting my Charlotte in 1841 theory, and searching for any Harris in Kent in 1851 who was born in Devon, we find Sarah H and another one at boarding school:
Thomas, 13, born Plymouth, at the Greenwich Hospital Schools in Greenwich. (The school is full of boys born in Plymouth.)
That would fit with being a child of Sampson and Charlotte.
However ... in 1838 there is a Thomas Harriss, 3, not born in county, at the District Greenwich Royal Hospital for Seamen, but it is identified as Union Workhouse and the children as pauper, so that could be the one in 1851 and he was just there all along, and that profile wouldn't fit with your Harris-s.
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I seem to have missed all these replies to my original request! I have in the last few days found the marriage of Sampson to Charlotte, it has taken me thirteen years, which just goes to prove you should never give up! They married in Jersey in 1837, more interestingly Sampson had also married in Jersey in 1833 and had a son called John Thomas in 1834 and a daughter called Sophia in 1835. Sophia just seems to have disappeared. However the new information would help with the assumption that they are the children in the Hancock household and that Charlotte aged 2 is the mother wrongly transcribed. Sarah had been born in Stoke Damerel and John not in Devon (Jersey) so that fits. On the marriage it says Charlotte was from Devon. Thankyou to all those people who have helped.