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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Roleystone on Sunday 05 August 12 05:21 BST (UK)

Title: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Roleystone on Sunday 05 August 12 05:21 BST (UK)
I'm researching a Jones family from Bethesda. They were John O. Jones (b. Carnarvon 1844), his wife Mary Jones (b. Llanllechid 1843), children Edward Lewis Jones (b. 1870 Bethesda), John Owen Jones (my grandfather, b. Sep. 1880 Bethesda), Mary Ellen Jones (b. 1885 Bethesda, m. Pritchard 1912).

Is anyone researching this family? - please contact me if you have any information.

Where are deaths in Bethesda registered? My great grandfather John O. Jones was in the 1891 Census (Cilfodan Street), but not in the 1901 Census. I can't trace him as I don't know where his death was registered.

The family, or various members, lived in either Cilfodan Street or Carneddi Road between 1881 to 1911 according to the U.K. Census returns.

Thank you for any assistance.
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Roleystone on Sunday 05 August 12 08:44 BST (UK)
Some additional information if it's of interest to anyone:

Mary Jones, born 1843, may have been, according to family legend, Mary Ellen Lewis prior to marriage to John O. Jones. According to this legend, she was born in Anglesey, but that contradicts her stated birth place (Llanllechid, Carnarvonshire) on the 1881, 1891 & 1901 census returns.

Eldest son Edward Lewis Jones (b. 1870 - Bethesda) married Elizabeth (family name unknown) in 1900 and they had three children, Mary Elizabeth Jones (b. 1901), Emlyn Jones (b. 1905), and Florence Jones (b. 1908). They lived at 21 Carneddi Road Bethesda according to the 1911 Census.

John Owen Jones (my grandfather, b. 1880) migrated to Australia around 1913. He was working in Cymmer, Porth before migrating, from Old South Wales to New South Wales.

Mary Ellen Jones (daughter, b. about 1885) is mentioned in the 1901 Census as a 16 year old Domestic Servant employed by the Lloyd family at 22 Ogwen Terrace (also known as High Street), Bethesda. Dr. Jenkin Lloyd was a 48 year old Surgeon from Llanddeiniol. Mary isn't mentioned in the 1911 Census, but she did marry a chap named Pritchard in the Oct-Dec quarter 1912. I understand that they had two children, Jane & Mair Pritchard.
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 05 August 12 08:55 BST (UK)
Where are deaths in Bethesda registered? My great grandfather John O. Jones was in the 1891 Census (Cilfodan Street), but not in the 1901 Census. I can't trace him as I don't know where his death was registered.

Bethesda, formerly part of the parish of Llanllechid, comes under the Bangor Registration District.

Looking at FreeBMD, these deaths came up (all Bangor district):

December qtr 1899    vol 11b, page 331
Jones, John Owen  age 52

December qtr 1895    vol 11b, page 323
Jones, John Owen   age 2
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Roleystone on Sunday 05 August 12 14:00 BST (UK)
Thanks KGarrad,

I was searching through the records on "Ancestry" and I mentioned Bethesda as the place of John O. Jones's death, and all I got were deaths registered in Carnarvon. Needless to say, given that every second male in Gwynedd is a Jones, and the majority of them are also John, this is a real "needle in a haystack" search.

I don't think that my great grandfather John Jones was too concerned about his age and date of birth as the following census records attest:

1871 Census, 27 years of age (i.e., d.o.b.=1844)
1881 Census, 36 years of age (i.e., d.o.b.=1845)
1891 Census, 49 years of age (i.e., d.o.b.=1842)

The record which you kindly mentioned, i.e., 52 years of age in 1899, would give John Jones a d.o.b. as 1847 which may be out of the range of probability, though he did die sometime between 1891 and 1901. Perhaps the informant to the death certificate was as confused to John Jones's age as J.J. himself appears to have been.

Anyway, I now know where to look, and I'm grateful for your assistance.


Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Sandgrounder1 on Sunday 05 August 12 19:29 BST (UK)
The death which KGarrad gave you is the most obvious.  If you say he was born around 1844 and died between 1891 and 1901 then you are looking at an age at death of between 47 and 57.  Suggest you write to Bangor registrars saying who you are looking for and giving full details and saying he lived in Bethesda.   The person's address is usually given on the death certificate unless they died in hospital etc.  You might get more clues from the informant's name and address.  If he died in hospital then the nearest one was in Bangor.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Roleystone on Monday 06 August 12 03:02 BST (UK)
Thanks Soundgrounder1,

I have found a Registrars Office in the Bangor Town Hall, is that who I should write to? Please excuse my ignorance, I haven't had any dealings wih BD&M Registrars in the UK.

You post indicates that the Registrar will confirm his address, is that also correct? My experience here in Australia is that you quote the registration number only, and the local Registrar's Office or transcription services do no vetting of the record, they just send you what you ordered on a "take it or leave it" basis. It sounds good that they will do some basic checks to confirm that the record ordered matches expectations. Who would have imagined that, Civil Servants actually providing service.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: hiraeth on Monday 06 August 12 09:44 BST (UK)
Hi

The burial on October 21 1899, of a John Owen Jones age 52, is recorded in the Llanllechid Parish Register.  The address given reads like Shop Tanderwen Rachub. 

Heather
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: hiraeth on Monday 06 August 12 10:36 BST (UK)
Hi

When searching BMD records in North Wales I always find it helpful to refer to NorthWales BMD which lists the events recorded at the local registry offices rather than the GRO Index. 

The references are entirely different from those required for the GRO but the added information regarding the Sub-Districts helps to close on in a geographical sense. 

For example in 1870 sub district Llanllechid,  there is a birth recorded for a Edward Lewis Jones certificate reference BANB2/19/60 

In 1880, subdistrict Llanllechid, there is a birth recorded for a John Owen Jones, reference BANB2/26/E191

Also  in 1844 a birth for a John Owens Jones at Llanllechid BANB2/04/07.

In 1869 there is a Bangor Civil Marriage for a John Jones and a Mary Lewis, certificate BAN/12/E26   

Coincidentally, there is a Mary Lewis age 8 born Llanllechid on the 1851 census (Class HO107/Piece 2518/Folio543/Page19) whose father Edward Lewis age 50, gives his birthplace as Holyhead Anglesey. 

Please check all references given before sending off for certificates because my eyesight and typing can be unreliable!  The forms required for any and all of the above are available from the NorthWales BMD website.

HTH
Heather

Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Roleystone on Monday 06 August 12 14:03 BST (UK)
Heather,

You are an angel, thank you.

Your information on the wedding of John Jones and Mary Lewis raises a question, why a civil marriage? My grandfather, John Owen Jones was a committed Wesleyan Methodist, I assume that his father, John Jones who married Mary Lewis, was the same. Perhaps she was from another denomination so they couldn't have a church wedding? 

Family lore has it that Mary's father objected to his daughter marrying John Jones as he considered that she deserved better. According to this story, Mary Lewis was from a wealthy family who made their fortune as boat-builders in Anglesey. If this was the case, why on earth did they move to Bethesda?

The more you learn in this family history business, the more questions arise.

Thanks again Heather, your assistance is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 06 August 12 17:27 BST (UK)
The marriage was probably recorded as "Register Office or Registrar Attended".
That's because it almost certainly wasn't a Church of England ceremony!

Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Sandgrounder1 on Monday 06 August 12 19:12 BST (UK)
I have written to local register offices on several occasions and some will "sift" the information.   They won't tell you the address, but if you say he lived in Bethesda, then they might be prepared to only send the certificate if it is the correct one and refund a portion of the fee to you if it is the wrong one.  It's just down to luck and the kindness of the staff!!
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Monday 06 August 12 19:31 BST (UK)
For some reason Ancestry listed Bangor in Anglesey rather a lot, so Caernarvonshire searches miss useful results, such as

marriage of Edward Lewis Jones and Elizabeth Williams
Oct-Nov-Dec 1899
Bangor Vol 11b p   837

(my experiences with my Bethesda Joneses is a lack of consistency between Llanllechid and Bethesda for pob)
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: hiraeth on Monday 06 August 12 19:43 BST (UK)
quote author=Roleystone link=topic=609477.msg4589988#msg4589988 date=1344258238]
Family lore has it that Mary's father objected to his daughter marrying John Jones as he considered that she deserved better. According to this story, Mary Lewis was from a wealthy family who made their fortune as boat-builders in Anglesey. If this was the case, why on earth did they move to Bethesda?

Quote

The Penrhyn Quarry grew exponentially in the early to mid 1800s.  It was not uncommon for men to come from Anglesey every week and sleep in "barracks".  The luckier ones then moved permanently to Llanllechid and Llandygai.  If you do some googling re slate quarries of North Wales there is a lot of social history to be found.
 
If you go to the 1871 Census you have found for John Jones & Mary (Lewis) Jones & son Edward,  then go to the following page, you will find an entry three houses away at 41 Carneddi Road for an Edward Lewis age 70 and Margaret his wife, with son William age 38.   There is a death on FreeBMD in June Q 1875 registered at Bangor for an Edward Lewis age 76.

I found a possible baptism on FindMyPast for Edward Lewis at Holyhead in 1798, son of a William Lewis labourer and his wife Ellen.   The other possibility is one baptized 1801 at Rhoscolyn Anglesey, s/o of a Mason. 

Also a marriage bond/licence on NLW archives issued in 1831 for a marriage at Llandygai (Margaret Lewis' stated place of birth) between an Edward Lewis and a Margaret Roberts of Llandygai.
LEWIS, Edward, bach., Llanllechid, CAE.  1831, Aug 3.  At Llandygai.  Margaret Roberts.  A.  60/141 (The numbers are the NLW document reference number)

HTH
Heather

Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Roleystone on Tuesday 07 August 12 05:29 BST (UK)
Thank you KGarrard (p.1) for clarification on civil mariages (it's a pity that some of them end up being less than "civil").

Am I correct in understanding that all marriages not conducted within the Church of England in the 1860s, for example weddings conducted within the Methodist, Baptist, and other independent congregations were registered as "civil weddings?"
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Roleystone on Tuesday 07 August 12 05:55 BST (UK)
Thanks Mabel, I too had the same problem when searching. It appears that Llanllechid was the predominate name for the area early in the 1800s, and Bethesda was mentioned as a "sanitary district" of Llanlechid.

Later in the 1800s, Bethesda appears to become more predominate. Perhaps the population there grew faster and it developed in its own right compared to the remainder of Llanllechid.

Thank you for the information on the Edward Jones - Elizabeth Williams wedding. I've been informed that their son Emlyn Jones led or managed a Welsh male choir tour of the USA in the 1930s. My mother, his cousin, was hoping that he would bring his choir on a tour of Australia, but unfortunately Mr. Hitler had other plans at the time. He died sometime after WWII of TB unfortunately.
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: Roleystone on Tuesday 07 August 12 06:27 BST (UK)
Thanks Heather,

The 1801 baptism is most likely the correct one as Edward Lewis was born in 1801. His stated birth place, Holyhead, may have been a reference to the nearest large town, both Holyhead and Rhoscolyn are on the Holy Island at the tip of Anglesey.

I'm basing the 1801 birth date on the information which he provided in the 1841 and 1851 census responses, but this does conflict with his death in 1875 where it is said he was 76 years of age, giving him a DOB in 1799 (more confusion - my head hurts).

His address in 1851 is Llidiart-Y-Gwenyn, Llanllechid, which doesn't appear to exist nowadays. I looked for it on Google Earth and ended up in the mddle of a harware store's yard at the end of Cilfodan Street, Bethesda. Perhaps that hamlet was removed to make space for the hardware store.

The Jones's may also have lived there at times. In the 1871 and 1891 census responses, J.O. Jones and family were living at 56 Cilfodan Street, Bethesda, but Cilfodan Street nowadays appears to have no more that three or so houses. If the street numbers did run up to the 50's, then that would have placed them in the middle of the same hardware store's storage yard.

Thanks for the Margaret Roberts information. I read that the Ogwen River, which flows through Bethesda, also flows through Llandegai. I wonder if Edward Lewis went courting in a row boat.
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 August 12 08:50 BST (UK)
I'm basing the 1801 birth date on the information which he provided in the 1841 and 1851 census responses, but this does conflict with his death in 1875 where it is said he was 76 years of age, giving him a DOB in 1799 (more confusion - my head hurts).

Don't forget that, in the 1841 census, ages were rounded down to a multiple of 5 years!
Or at least, that was supposed to happen for all adults! ;D

So, an age of 40 on that census, could mean any age from 40 to 44.
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: snj1950 on Thursday 30 August 12 14:01 BST (UK)
All what you have quoted in your first 2 posts is a part of my family tree. Florence Jones had 1 daughter. She is my mother. I think it would be good if we could compare information that we both have. My email address is (*).

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Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: EmyrBorth on Thursday 30 August 12 15:26 BST (UK)
Hi
re, reply #15
Royal Mail postcode finder gives the few properties Roleystone mentions under CilfodEn.
Search under CilfodAn, LL57 3SL, gives 1-23 (no number 5, possibly 2 houses joined to make 1 house), and 6 other properties.
Emyr
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: snj1950 on Thursday 30 August 12 17:10 BST (UK)
I'm trying to find Roleystone on Ancestry because that is the one I am using and I can show you my tree
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: snj1950 on Thursday 30 August 12 17:12 BST (UK)
Royleystone was your mother called Catherine Mary Jones??
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: hiraeth on Wednesday 26 September 12 10:14 BST (UK)
For some reason Ancestry listed Bangor in Anglesey rather a lot,

Genuki has a table listing the Bangor Registration District Sub-Districts and applicable years which might help.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/bangor.html.   
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: snj1950 on Wednesday 26 September 12 16:46 BST (UK)
Is Roleystone ever on here???
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: KGarrad on Wednesday 26 September 12 17:13 BST (UK)
Hasn't been online since 9th August! ;D
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: snj1950 on Wednesday 05 December 12 23:04 GMT (UK)
Dear Hiraeth,

My name is Sonia I live in LLandudno North Wales,you seem to know a lot about the Jones Family and you are talking about my Grandmother  great grandmother great grand father and so on,
Would it be possible for you to email me so I can fill the gaps .
If you could I will send you all the details to you.

Yours Sonia Jones.

Thank you,
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: hiraeth on Sunday 23 December 12 16:41 GMT (UK)
Hello Sonia

I wish I could help you, but this particular Jones family from Bethesda doesn't appear to connect with my Jones families :(

All the best
Heather
Title: Re: Jones Family of Bethesda
Post by: heather2626 on Thursday 28 December 23 13:30 GMT (UK)
Good morning,

I recently found some information about my great-great grandmother. I am having a hard time following the many Joneses on Ancestry.com; I am wondering if anyone has a related ancestor?

Margaret Ann Jones
Birth: Nov. 29 1870; Carneddi Wales
Last Residence: Gerlan Wales
April 14, 1888 - Liverpool to Boston MA on the Pavonia vessel
Married Thomas Jones from Rhyl Wales

Any connections are welcome!! :)
Heather