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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: johnupatree on Monday 01 August 05 16:06 BST (UK)
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Time for my regular request regarding my gggfather Charles SMYTH, Artist and Picture Dealer, believed to be from Dublin. His son Frederick was born in 1859 in Dublin(?) and raised in the Wicklow mountains according to family legend. He emigrated to Liverpool in 1881 and from then on is well documented, it is his early life in Ireland that I am missing information on.
I do not know the name of Charles's wife, where they married or where they lived and died.
There is a family connection to John DILLON MP, Frederick was his nephew we believe, although this has yet to verified.
I did make contact with a Brian Dillon-Smyth with regards to the connection, but I have not heard from him in some time now, so if you are out there Brian, please get in touch.
There is no family link to America as far as I am aware, I am adding this to hopefully avoid my in box being clogged up with requests for information regarding links to the US!!
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
John Smyth
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I wonder could this be the marriage from BVRI
Charles Smyth to
Arabella Jackson 6/11/1851 at St.Thomas Dublin
H/F John Smyth
W/F Robert Jackson
audrey
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Hi Audrey,
Thanks for the response, the simple answer is yes it could be, your guess is as good as mine though! Unfortunately I have no information on her name/maiden name or where they married.
I will certainly keep this on record and try and follow it up, if they had a son called Frederick then I am in business.
Very best wishes
John
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Hi,
Have you checked the Dublin Directories for him? (Have I asked you this before?) Or the small database of some Dublin parish records? This is in the Dublin City Archives and probably elsewhere.
Kate
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Hi Kate,
I have not found any reference to a Charles SMYTH as either an Artist or Picture Dealer, a few of the same name, but not occupation.
As I don't know where he lived or his wifes name its difficult to know if any of them are him!
John
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Good Morning John,
Have you given consideration to Charles F. Smyth, 7 St Stephen's Green North? http://www.loughman.dna.ie/dublin1850/xdubdir79.html#SmythThis guy has an initial F. and your Charles christened his son Frederick, also the dates look as though they might match.
I note you refer to a John Dillon MP. Which John Dillon? John Dillon (1851-1927) Nationalist. Elected MP for Tipperary in 1880 or John Blake Dillon (1816-1866) Nationalist. Elected MP for Tipperary 1865. Source 3rd Edition A Dictionary of Irish Biography Edited by Henry Boylan. Pub Gill & MacMillan
Have you approached Dr Linde Lunney, Editorial Secretary, A Dictionary of Irish Biography? The publication is updated on a regular basis. Dr Lunney posts requests for information on most of the genealogical sites and I find she is extremely helpful and I have no doubt she would be interested in your gggrandfather considering the connection with John Dillon MP.
Best Regards, Christopher
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Hi Christopher,
Thanks for the response, yes I have considered the entry for Charles F Smyth, for exactly the same reasons and also bcause at one time there was a Smyths Auctioneers in the same area.
I will contact Dr Linde Lunney and see where that takes me, thank you, very useful.
My ggfather Frederick was born in 1859, so I always presume he is the nephew of John Blake Dillon, I may be wrong!
Very best wishes
John
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Thank you for your message John. There is a limit to the research that I can do sitting at home posting messages on the boards. I looked at the Dublin board yesterday as a friend lives near Dublin and suggested we meet sometime for a coffee. I am due a coffee with my cousin who also lives there.
I tend to concentrate on the boards for the old Province of Ulster but feel if I begin to make regular visits to Dublin my genealogical knowledge will improve by leaps and bounds as there is so much information available at various places in that City.
Do you know if Charles Smyth's family have any connections with the north of Ireland? I met a John Smyth (may have been Smith) at a function in the Ballyedmond Castle Hotel, near Rostrevor, Co. Down many years ago. The building is now the private home of a north of Ireland entrepreneur.
Regards, Christopher
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Hi,
I know very little about Charles, only what is on Frederick's wedding certificate!
I know Frederick was raised in the Wicklow mountains somewhere, but other than that his life in Ireland is a mystery, there has never been any mention of the north, only the south.
I was contacted some time ago by Brian Dillon-Smyth and he offered to send me the details of the family link, but since that time I have not heard from him, my emails and letters have been unanswered. I feel that he holds a key to unlocking the connection beteen the families. I know he is still alive, as he posts to a website!
Thanks again
John
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Been a while since I have been active and so I am reposting my request for information regarding my elusive GGF Frederick.
I have the following facts, from marriage certificates and census returns
Frederick SMYTH born 1859 in Dublin (city)
Baptised 19/5/1878 Ashfield, Co Cavan
Occupation: Driver/Cab Driver
Father Charles SMYTH, two known occupations. 1.Artist 2. Picture Dealer
Emigrated to Liverpool 1882.
I am NOT looking for any information after 1882, his life in Liverpool is well documented, however I have nothing on his life in Ireland.
I do not know his mothers name, parish of birth, spouses etc
Long shot, but worth a try!
Any information gratefully recieved.
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To save on duplicated research it's much better to update your existing topic if you have new clues that might help your search, rather than starting a new one.
Dublin Moderator
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Pardon me!
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I know it's an old thread - but it's better to keep it all together.
For reference there was a related post about a search for Frederick Smyth's baptism :
St Thomas Lookup Request (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,490701.msg3482884.html#msg3482884)
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No problem, been a while since I have been active and I am a bit rusty with the protocols etc ::)
Thanks again
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I had a very quick look at some Dublin City directories for any sign of Charles - but no Artists or Picture dealers listed by that name.
Have you checked English census returns for Charles in case he ever lived in England ?
I have an 1857 directory at home which I'll have a look at later...
S.
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Had a look a few years ago on the UK census, but nothing. As I dont have a spouse name it is a bit hit and miss. No mention in any of the family documents or letters of Charles ever being in England.
Very frustrating!
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Hi 'john...'
Was there really a 20 year gap between him being born an being baptised or was that a typo ???
Also what did Frederick name his daughters ? Sometimes this can help with the mother's name !
Tara
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Hi there,
The free index on ifhf shows a Frederick Smyth baptised in 1861 to a Charles Smyth in County Cavan.
I'm not sure though if this is a rare enough combination of names and places for it to be a good match yet.
I'm just reading through your old messages
1. Frederick born in Dublin City in 1859
2. Raised in Wicklow mountains
3. Baptised in Cavan in 1878
4. Lived adult life in Liverpool
HUM WIDE search area :(
Tara
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I checked Thom's 1857 for Dublin - no sign of a Charles Smyth/Smith as an Artist or Picture dealer in the alphabetical or trades index.
edit : also checked 1858 and 1863
Shane
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Hi there,
I see from another site that you are trying to prove that Solomon Smyth from Ballybay and Charles Smyth were possible brothers
solomon smyth 1901 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Ballybay_Town/Main_Street/1627216/)
Solomon Smyth states that the was born in Monaghan which extends your search area even FURTHER
Also if this is the same Solomon that means he would be nearer in age to Frederick than to Charles ???
I have also seen on the other site that you have documentation to say that Frederick WAS baptised in 1878 but born in 1859 so there is no point in us looking on irishgenealogy for a baptism in Dublin - UNLESS that is re was baptised in 1878 into a different religion - just a theory.
Tara
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Thanks Shane, very much appreciated.
Tara, thank you for your input, I will do my best to answer your questions and hopefully clarify/complicate things further (delete as applicable!)
The reference to ‘raised in Wicklow mountains’ is from a family letter, I have no confirmation of this, although I have no reason to doubt its authenticity. The letter was from one of his sons.
I have no mention/record of Charles ever being in England from the family documents I have. Frederick did not have any other family in England that I am aware of. His life from 1882 is very well recorded, birth and wedding certificates, letters etc.
No typo regarding the baptism, I have the original letter confirming the details from the parish concerned.
Frederick had strong male genes, out of his 12 children, only three were female. His first daughter was Elizabeth Muriel, followed by Kate and Elsie, neither of whom survived past childhood.. This is a very interesting line of thought, the name Elizabeth figures down the subsequent generations; a very good point, thank you.
To give you some background regarding the Solomon connection. We believe from family letters that Frederick was related to John DILLON, a renowned Irish politician. Following a posting regarding this in 2002 I was contacted by Brian Dillon-Smyth offering to explain the connection, he never did and all subsequent emails/letters etc have been ignored. However I do know that the Dillon-Smyth connection is through his grandfather, Patrick Joseph SMYTH marrying Anne Elizabeth DILLON. Patrick was the son of Solomon Peter SMYTH and the grandson of Solomon SMYTH.
Solomon Peter SMYTH was born 1851, closer to Fredericks 1859 surely, than his father Solomon, who must have been born at least 16 years earlier. Thereby, in my opinion, making it more probable that Charles and Solomon were brothers.
I am looking at the possibility of a re baptism, hence the request. In later life he described himself as an Agnostic, so no clues there. What is interesting to me is that Solomon and family were Roman Catholic, I wonder if Frederick renounced the faith and converted, hence the emigration. It may also possibly account for the lack of communication from Brian Smyth???
Phew!
Hope all that clarifies rather than muddles things. Your time and suggestions are very much appreciated, thank you again
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Hi there,
Ok So
1. You are saying that Soloman Peter's father was also called Solomon and that this Solomon Sr and Charles COULD be brothers both born early 1820's ish....
You have obviously seen Solomon on this peerage report but there is no backround on him
solomon smyth (http://thepeerage.com/p45085.htm#i450846)
Looking at all my usual sites though I can't find any connection to Charles and Solomon (that's not to say there isn't one, just that I can't see it)
Did you get Solomon Peter's marriage cert to Bridget Mary Coyle to see if that can give you any leads ?
Solomon Peter Smyth
Apr-May-Jun 1888
District: Castleblayney
Volume: 1 Page: 507
Have you tried to trace anything for Laurence Smyth to see if it gives you some leads ?
Tara
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Looks like getting this might answer you questions !
http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_060025
Tara
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Hi Tara,
Thanks again for your time and input. Yes, as I could not make the link any other way I decided to work backwards from the Smyth-Dillon marriage between Patrick and Ann. I used Burkes Peerage as the starting point. No I have not got the cert for Solomon and Bridget, the fathers name came from a posting I made and someone kindly checked the parish registers for me.
I should explain that virtually all of my genealogical work was destroyed by a very venegeful ex partner, I came home to find that my PC, backup HD and all files, had been thrown from the first floor window, in the rain. Not good. So I have very little in the way of paper records etc. Thankfully I had the GEDCOM file uploaded to several sites. Sadly I lost the majority of my contacts names etc and their emails. Ho hum.
Wow, the link you sent looks VERY promising!! I have tried searching for Laurence, given his uncommon christian name I thought it would be simple, but as yet no joy. I will continue though.
Now all I need to do is get hold of this manuscript, will have a look later and see what the otions are for ordering/viewing etc
Many thanks
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I have contacted the National Library, unfortunately the gent dealing with copies is on holiday for two weeks, so a little wait is in order!
Meanwhile I have another possible line to investigate and I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction. In Shaws 1850 there is a Charles F smyth esq and a Robert Smyth & Sons, all residing at & Stephens Green. Robert is listed as a Greengrocer. I have not had any joy in locating an online directory later than 1850, am I looking in the wrong places or is there not one.
My very tenuous line of thought is this; My ggf was Frederick, his father was Charles. Could the Charles F be Charles Frederick? Secondly, Fredericks youngest son was named Robert. All very tenuous I know, but hey, sometimes these hunches pay of!
I am looking for a later record of this address, or of details of any of the occupants. I would have thought that finding Charles F would be relatively easy, no pun intended, but so far nothing.
As I know little of Dublin, could someone tell me what parish Stephens Green is in and the nearest churches to this address, maybe if I look through those church records I will find clarification.
Many thanks again for all your wonderful help and advice.
John
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As I know little of Dublin, could someone tell me what parish Stephens Green is in and the nearest churches to this address, maybe if I look through those church records I will find clarification.
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Stephen's Green is split between several civil parishes - the greengrocer you mentioned is at 7 Stephen's Green north, and in the section which runs between the top of Grafton St. and Dawson Street, and in the civil parish of St. Anne's.
Has a denomination been established for your Smyth family ?
The Church of Ireland parish is also St. Anne's, and the church is on Dawson St. The RC parish for the area at that time was likely St. Nicholas (Francis St.) or St. Andrew's (Westland Row).
There's a baptism on the IrishGenealogy website for a Spencer Smyth in 1873 with that family address. Father's name is Edward Weber Smyth, merchant. see : Smyth baptism (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/77d40f0023162)
The 1857 directory shows the same Smyth business at 7 St. Stephen's Green North - with Robert & sons, and Charles F. as grocers & wine merchants.
Shane
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This record from 1860-61 has a Charles Wellesley Dillon of 6 Stephens Green which interestingly is described as an 'EXHIBITION & PHOTOGRAPH GALLERY'
http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/997#tab_works (quarter way down the page)
Building: CO. DUBLIN, DUBLIN, ST STEPHEN'S GREEN, NO. 006 (EXHIBITION & PHOTOGRAPH GALLERY)
Date: 1860-61
Nature: Alterations, for Charles Wellesley Dillon.
On the PayPerView website www.findmypast.ie there is a record linking this Charles Wellesley Dillon of 6 Stephens Green and the Charles F. Smyth of 7 Stephens Green that you think might be Fredricks father. You can search the site for free and buy credits to see actual records.
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Thanks again for the interesting information, certainly giving me some possible leads, all looking very interesting and dare I say promising!
As I have mentioned before, there is a family connection to the DILLON family, so this new information is very exciting, especially the Exhibition and Photograph Gallery bit. Althought the link http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/997#tab_works does not take me to anything with DILLON.
Will take a look at the findmypast PPV website when I get home, boss frowns on me doing genealogical research in work, cant think why ;D
I appreciate very much the efforts you have all made, hugely impresssed with not only the knowledge but the speed and friendliness shown
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Had a good look at the PPV site and also through Ancestry, interesting but I think this may be a blind lead. Charles F (Ferdinand) b 1811 was married in London and appears on the 1861 census with his wife and children. No mention of a Frederick and as he was born in 1859 I cant imagine him at the age of two, not being with his parents, although stranger things have happened.
I will now put this line of enquiry on the back burner and wait for my man at the NLI to return from his holidays and send me the documents I have requested. The frustrations of genealogy!
Thanks again
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Father Charles SMYTH, two known occupations. 1.Artist 2. Picture Dealer
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quick questions about Charles - you mentioned two occupations for him - are these from two separate sources and dates ?
I was thinking a search of directories closer to these dates might be worth a try - presumably one of these relates to details given on Frederick's marriage record ?
Shane
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Hi Shane,
Yes, the occupations are from two seperate sources, they are both from his marriage certificates.
Frederick married twice. 1st in 1882, Charles described as Artist. Following his wifes death in childbirth he remarried in 1899, this time Charles was described as Picture Dealer. Both marriages took place in Liverpool.
I am presuming Charles was alive at this latter point as on other wedding certificates I have if a father was deceased it stated such, although I know that this may not always be the case.
Cheers
John
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UPDATE
At long last, due to several problems, I have received the pedigree of the SMYTH family of Ballybay from NLI.
I now know the name of Solomon SMYTH snrs father; it is Laurence.
Laurence SMYTH of Derryhalla and Drumroosk, Ballybay, Co Monaghan. spouse was Brigid AGNEW
No dates on the pedigree record. I do though have dates for the death of his son Solomon and his wife Margaret. They are respectively 20th January 1850 and 24th January 1883. Perhaps a burial record or headstone inscription may give more information? (if either exist of course!)
I am now looking for more of Laurence and Brigids children, the hope being that one of them is my elusive Charles
Cheers
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At long last, due to several problems, I have received the pedigree of the SMYTH family of Ballybay from NLI.
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Laurence SMYTH of Derryhalla and Drumroosk, Ballybay, Co Monaghan. spouse was Brigid AGNEW
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I am now looking for more of Laurence and Brigids children, the hope being that one of them is my elusive Charles
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To search for children of Laurence and Brigid you would have to follow up in parish records, if these are available for the area. No sign that I see of a Laurence Smyth/Smith in the area at the time of Griffiths...
There are two townlands in Co. Monaghan named Derryhallagh - one is in the same civil parish as Drumroosk i.e. Tullycorbet - so presume that's the townland being referred to.
The Church of Ireland and RC parishes for the area are both named Tullycorbet. Records for the RC parish only go back to the 1860s so will probably not be of much help. CofI records for this parish go back to the mid 1790s. These appear to be available in PRONI on film MIC1/153. There's no mention of records for the parish on the list of records held by the RCB Library, or National Archives..
Shane
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Hi Shane,
Expecting to find records this far back was always going to be a long shot I know. Looks like I may have hit the wall, as from the records I have, the family where Roman Catholic. Certainly Laurence's son Solomon and grandson Solomon Peter were anyway. Ho hum. ???
Not quite sure where to go from here, burial records, if available? maybe they would indicate next of kin?
Just wish I knew who my elusive Charles had married, would be a great help, ah well, such is life!
You have been a great help in my search, thank you
John
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If your Smyths were RC then you may have reached the end of the road with regard to records on individuals, rather than a brick wall!
I'm not sure Church Burial records will help - a) because these are usually very basic (e.g. just name & date), and b) because RC parishes didn't often keep records of death/burials in their registers - e.g. none are listed for Tullycorbet parish.
Some cemeteries have good details on names and dates (e.g. Glasnevin, Mount Jerome etc), but not necessarily relationships, but these can sometimes be established by confirming with other records. There's always the possibility of some details on a headstone inscription or death notice... if you can locate these..
Shane
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Thanks Shane, yes it is the end of a road rather than a brick wall, looks like I will have to find another road to travel down :)
Your help, advice and suggestions over the past months have been greatly appreciated.
Best wishes
John