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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Cariad.bach on Tuesday 31 July 12 09:41 BST (UK)
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Hi :)
I'm researching my great-grandmother's adoption. Thanks to some wonderful help I've found her birth, and her baptism (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,607992.0.html)
So, she was born in May 1904, but was baptised in April 1905, mother named but no father listed.
My questions are, was it usual to wait so long before baptising a baby, or if not, what could the reasons be for the wait? And would this suggest that she was still in the care of her biological mother at the time of baptism, as she is named on the records?
I don't know for sure when she was adopted, only that by the 1911 census she is living with her adoptive parents.
Thanks,
Emma :)
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Baptism within 1 year is quite standard - but you will often find many families do not baptise their children when very young and will get several done at the same time.
My g/grandfather was never baptised (like his older brother) but when he was 14 all his younger siblings were done in bulk, 6 of them and also about 5 of their cousins.
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Thanks Plummiegirl :)
Do you happen to know if it would likely be her biological mother having her baptised, as her name is listed on the baptism record, or could her adopted parents have had her baptised but her biological mothers name would still have to be recorded?
I'm trying to work out if her biological mother kept her for some time after she was born.
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It sounds to me as if she was still with her biological mother, especially if she is listed with no father. Formal adoption did not start in the UK until about 1927, so any arrangement would have been made by the family.
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Thanks Groom :)
I'm trying to find ways of finding out more about it as it falls between censuses, but I'm very new to searching so I don't know if it's possible.
I've had her birth cert this morning and have a 'bonus' person listed, as the informant - a Jane Wynne, grandmother, present at the birth. I'm not sure whether 'grandmother' will be the baby's grandmother, or the mother's grandmother though. I'll have to try and match them up somewhere, hopefully..!
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Hi,
I think that Jane Wynne is the baby's grandmother.
I have a death cert for an infant and the informant on that is her grandmother.
Nanny Jan
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If you need any help, put the names on here and I'm sure that someone will be able to find them and the connection. As it is the baby's birth registration, I would assume that Jane is the baby's grandmother.
Snap NJ. ;D
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Brilliant, thank you both ;D
I hadn't expected to see another person on there, so was a nice surprise to find another connection.
I don't know whether to start a new thread, I've been adding information onto my old one (new here too, not sure what to do for the best!)
I've linked to my other thread in my first post in this topic, details on birth cert are:
Margaret Wynne (my ggrandmother) born May 1904 at Willow Cottage, Soughton, Northop.
Mother: Margaret Wynne, domestic servant.
Informant: Grandmother, Jane Wynne, present at birth, of same address.
No father listed.
Thank you :)
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I wouldn't start another thread or you could end up with everyone looking for the same thing. If you do decide to start one, mark these two as complete - just go back to the first post on each and add the word COMPLETED. It would be a good idea to link a new one back to these as well.
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Thanks for the advice groom, I'll not start a new thread, I'll stick with the two I have and put a link to this one in with the first one :)
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Hi,
Possible family in 1901:
Jane Wynne (wid 49) with children; Sarah (16), Edwin (20), Maggie (27), Florrie (6). Living in Northop, Soughton, Flints.
Nanny Jan
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Oh that's brilliant Nanny Jan, thank you!
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Hi,
I'm slightly curious; children are usually listed in age order.......so was Florrie the daughter of Maggie or Jane?
Nanny Jan
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I had just been wondering about that! I was trying to trace them back to 1891 to see if Maggie had moved out. The way the children are listed on that suggests that she had, then moved back, so almost being listed as a 'separate' family unit underneath her siblings who usually lived there/hadn't left yet?
I don't know if that makes sense, the excitement of having found a possible lead, and endless searching is making my brain a bit fried!
I've also been searching for possible death certs, wondering if she had intended to keep baby Margaret, with the baptism suggesting she had her until at least 11 mths old, but something happened to her.
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Here they are in 1891 Piece: 4607 Folio: 24 Page: 6
Soughton Mountain, Northop, Soughton
WYNNE, John Head Married M 38 Coal Miner Mold, Flintshire
WYNNE, Jane Wife Married F 40 Liverpool, Lancashire
WYNNE, Emma Daughter F 14 Soughton, Flintshire
WYNNE, Edwin Son M 11 Soughton, Flintshire
WYNNE, Sarah Daughter F 6 Soughton, Flintshire
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Brain a bit fried.........I know how you feel......just take a break and do something else; you might find ideas just bubble up.
It could be that Margaret died, became ill, found a job, married or emigrated. Have you looked for her on 1911?
I searched for a brother and sister for a long time and then found that they had emigrated to Canada. ;)
Nanny Jan
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Thanks Groom, I'd looked at that but on the 1901 Jane is listed as born in Mold - I've seen people say that ages can change a little over censuses, especially womens, and the occasional difference in names.. could the same apply to birth place? Certainly looks like the same family.
I should have a break Nanny Jan, I know, I just keep finding myself drawn back for "another quick look.." ;D Still haven't placed her on 1911.
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Very easy for places of birth to change. My great x 3 grandfather says he was born in Yarmouth one census and London in another. Sometimes it is a mistake with the place of birth being dittoed from the person above and at other times they just didn't know.
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Hi All
What a little mystery!... :)
Long shot or possibility??....
Marriage 1908 - Margaret Wynne & Thomas Humphreys....
Following family found on 1911 ...
Ref - RG14 Piece:33943 Schedule Number: 27.
Sarah :)
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Ah so totally feasible that a birth place could differ, thanks Groom.
I found a family that would fit in 1881 but the mother is down as Ann, although there is a daughter Jane at that point too, not sure if that's too much of a long shot.
John, 31, miner
Ann, 30
Margaret, 7
Jane, 6
William, 5
Amma 3
Edwin 18mth
Hi Sarah, that marriage could explain things, but how sad if this is her that she had to give up a daughter (possibly two if Florrie was hers, can't link her yet) to marry.
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Long shot or possibility??....
Marriage 1908 - Margaret Wynne & Thomas Humphreys....
Sarah :)
Hi,
I've found that marriage in 1909 :-\
Nanny Jan
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Is there a way for me to find the address on the birth cert, Willow Cottage? I keep trying but can't find it at all.
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Hi all
You're right Nanny Jan...just relooked found banns 1909 - May 16th,23rd & 30th, Thomas of Mold Parish, Margaret of Northop Parish....
looking like red herring??:...
Sarah :)
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Hi :)
I've been looking all over again this morning, this is very likely to be the family isn't it? I suppose a Margaret Wynne could have moved to Soughton in 1903 before she had baby Margaret, but I don't know.. Is there a way to find out year by year where people lived? Somebody mentioned Tithe records to show houses, but I can't find Willow Cottage at all.
I can't find a death for this Margaret, so a marriage would be most likely I suppose, Soughton comes under Northop I think so could that still be her?
I've been trying to find out about Florrie, wondering whether she was Margaret's daughter, rather than Jane's, but I can't really find anything there either (sensing a pattern?! ::))
I'm wondering why baby Margaret was baptised in Rhydymwyn, where she ended up living with adopted parents, I know it's not far from Soughton but wouldn't Soughton have had it's own chapel?
Just thinking aloud really, everything's got a bit muddled in my brain, thank you all for continuing to help me with this, I really appreciate others opinions and search skills :)
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Hi,
Willow Cottage could have had a name change or several over the years or could have been demolished.
In my tree I have a family having 13 children, all born in a different area of Kent! So ancestors moving around is not unusual.
FreeBMD has a marriage for Margaret Wynne and Thomas Humphreys in SeptQ 1909; could fit with the banns found.
Nanny Jan
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Hi :)
Thanks, I'd been looking for Willow Cottage on the 1901 census but couldn't find it, though there appeared to be a few places that just came under 'Soughton' so could be one of those maybe.
I suppose I'm just trying to establish a 'definate' for this family before I follow them too far - I think it certainly looks like it's them but am not sure how I can say for sure, being very new to this I'm finding that I follow a lot of 'hunches' and go from there, is it like that for everyone?!
I can't find this family in the 1881 - the closest I can find are these people, the ages of the children would fit, but the ages for the parents don't tally with the 1891. Oh, and Jane appears to be called Ann? (Emma looks to be Amma, but I can go with that!) Would someone mind having a look and seeing what you think please?
WYNNE, John Head Married age 31 born 1850 in Mold, Flintshire
WYNNE, Ann Wife Married age 30 born 1851 in Liverpool, Lancashire
WYNNE, Margaret Daughter age 7 born 1874 in Soughton, Flintshire
WYNNE, Jane Daughter age 6 born 1875 in Mold, Flintshire, Wales
WYNNE, William Son age 5 born 1876 in Soughton, Flintshire, Wales
WYNNE, Amma Daughter age 3 born 1878 in " " " " "" ""
WYNNE, Edwin Son age 1 born 1880 in "" "" ""
Thanks for the marriage, if I order the certificate will it tell me both her parents names or just her father?
Thanks all, Emma :)
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I think that has to be them - too many coincidences not to be.
Marriage certificate will give you her father's name and occupation. This site might help you http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/marriages.htm
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Thanks Groom, and that website is really helpful.
I've found the Banns for the marriage between Margaret and Thomas, but not the marriage license/cert of when they actually married. For other people I've found the Banns then a week later the marriage as recorded in a church book I presume, listing their fathers names and the names of witnesses, but I can't find one for this couple ??? I'll send off for the certificate anyway, thanks :)
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Hi Jane was my great grandmother and Margaret my grand mother I don't have much info . Can u help please thanx
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Hi Agostini,
I'd be happy to share information, that would be brilliant!
I'll private message you my email address if you like :)
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As a matter of interest, sometime after I found the baptism of my ggrandmother aged 12 months, being baptised in the village she was to live in after being adopted, I also found a baptism for her aged 7 days, in the village she was born in. So, baptised twice ???
Thanks for all the help received on this, and the other questions I went off on a tangent with ;D