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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: cschleibs on Sunday 29 July 12 01:33 BST (UK)
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I believe the book 'Honour The Light Brigade' by Lumis and Wynn has info on men known to have ridden in the charge in the Crimea War in 1854.
If any kind soul has a copy of this book, would they mind looking up William Palmer who i believe was in the 11th Hussars during that time.
Many thanks
Carolyn
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hi carolyn
as a check can you give us his year and place of birth and i,ll look have a look to see if he,s in the pension records only i can,t see a wm palmer in the 11th hussars at approx his birth year which i,ve allowed to be 1830ish .
trevor
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Hi Trevor
Census and his Marriage Certificate say he was born in Birmingham in 1828.
According to the birth of his children registered in the Armed forces births between 1854 - 1859 he was in the 11th foot. I’m just trying to determine if that is the 11th Hussars or the 11th North Devonshire.
I’ve only begun to familiarise myself with British army regiments and took a guess at the approx birth places of the children that he may have been in the 11th Hussars as none were born in Australia.
1854 Birmingham, 1857 Buttervant Cork, 1859 Aldershot.
I was just looking to confirm which regiment as I can’t find any info on him.
His next child was born in 1865 in Demerara, West Indies.
According to his last child's birth certificate (May 1868), he died sometime before her birth while serving in the 1st West Indian regiment as a Sergeant Major.
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
The 11th Regiment of Foot was renamed The Devonshire Regiment in 1881. They were Infantry, and nothing to do with the 11th Hussars, who were Cavalry.
In 1854 the 11th Regiment of Foot was in NSW. The first two or three months of that year their depot was at Winchester, then Newport until June, then Brecon for the rest of the year.
For at least the first six months of 1857, their depot was at Buttevant. Later that year the depot moved to Cork and the regiment returned from NSW.
At the beginning of 1859 the 1st battalion was stationed at Shorncliffe, with a depot at Fermoy. The newly formed 2nd battalion was at Preston. By August and for the rest of the year, both battalions were at Aldershot, with the 1st still with a depot at Fermoy.
In 1865 the 1st and 2nd battalions of the 11th Foot were in Bengal and the Cape respectively. The 2nd battalion went to China about March and that was the situation for the following twelve months. Their depots were in various parts of Ireland.
The depot companies of regiments were responsible for recruitment, training, and supply or replacement soldiers, etc., to the main body when overseas.
Rex
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Rex, thanks so much for that insight. It seems now I should focus my search on the 11th Regiment of Foot and their depots.
One other piece of puzzling info I have is a fantastic reference from 1856. (I will try to attach). What is puzzling is that it states he is now in the 18th regiment and is in Malta. Are the 18th regiment connected with the 11th? If so does this sound like a place the 11th regiment would have been in 1856.
Children born both before and after 1856 still state that he is in the 11th foot.
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Carolyn,
That’s a very nice piece of paper to have in your possession. It looks like the officer who signed it was a Brevet Major in the 68th Light Infantry by name of what looks like Lewis.
Looking through some newspapers I see that there was a John Edward Lewis in the 68th Foot promoted to Brevet Major in April, 1855. In February, 1857, he was promoted to Brevet Lt. Colonel, and he died 1878, at Chatham, aged 72.
In The Morning Post (London), Tuesday, December 11, 1855, there’s a notice: “Brevet-Major Lewis, 68th Regiment, supernumerary of his rank with the service companies, will proceed to Malta.”
In The Newcastle Courant, Friday, January 26, 1855, there’s an item:
“Two captains, four subalterns, six sergeants, two drummers, and 100 rank and file from each depot of regiments in the Crimea are ordered to be in readiness for immediate embarkation for Malta, where they will form a provisional depot to the army under Lord Raglan”
So we have detachments from the depots of various Crimea regiments going to Malta, and the ones stationed at St. Georges Bay under the command of Brevet Major Lewis.
The 11th Foot didn’t go to the Crimea but the 18th did. They don’t seem to have any connection, weren’t sharing a depot or anything like that. It seems he was there doing what he did best. Maybe he was ‘borrowed’ in much the same way as the Major was.
The date on the paper would be about the same time as the 18th regiment left the Crimea, and thereby no longer needed a depot at Malta. There’s a report in the Cheshire Observe, Saturday, June 21, 1856, of the 18th regiment sailing from Liverpool to Dublin on the Cleopatra.
Rex
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i,ve been waiting for rex to come back to this with his last post before commenting and i,m still not sure where we are with this regarding dates only i,ve looked in service / pension records and as it stands i can,t find a record for wm palmer now i,m not saying he isn,t there but that regt,s dates and place of birth don,t show a specific person i can say is him only if say he joined up approx 1850 and he,s still in service in 1865/68 then a record should be in there somewhere , i,ve looked for the 11th foot tried hussars regts just in case and i,m at a loss as to where to look now , only i got caught not so long back by saying a soldier wasn,t in the records going by the info posted only for someone else to find him being dischrged under a different regt which was the one in the look up page , so i,d like to make absolutely certain as to wether he,s there or not .
there is a west indian regt record for a wm palmer but that had a discharge year of 1905 and he was a schoolmaster .
anyone want to help me out !!
regards
trevor
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Rex thanks for shedding light on the reference. You cant see a William Palmer listed anywhere in the 18th Foot while in Crimea?
Trevor
This is exactly the problem I’m having. I can’t find any records on him. The only info i have to say he was in the 11th foot then 1st West Indian regiments is on his children’s birth records.
1850 – son, Joseph Palmer born in Birmingham
1851 Census – William is a wood turner
1854 – son, William Palmer Born 11th Foot at Birmingham
1857 – dau, Sarah Jane Palmer born 11th Foot at Buttervant– Sarah’s birth certificate states Rank of father is Sergeant
1859 – dau, Martha Harriet Palmer born 11th Foot at Aldershot
1861 Census – Family not found – Possibly overseas
1865 – son, Harold Taylor Palmer born 1st West Indian in Demerara, British Guyana, West Indies
1868 (April) – dau, Harriet L Palmer born Aston – Harriet’s birth certificate states father is deceased, Occupation for William is a Sergeant Major in 1st West Indian Regiment.
I found a William Palmer death in 1868-1869 in Malta on the GRO Army Chaplains Death Indices. I have no proof this is him, but it does tie in with his death but what is he doing in Malta?
Besides the above Reference stating he also served in the 18th Regiment I cannot find anything else on him.
I have been told to look on the Muster rolls. Does anyone know if they are available online as I don’t live in the UK to go to the Archives? Also if he is in the Depot of the regiments and not seeing action would he even be on the muster rolls?
Thanks
Carolyn
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hi carolyn
will have a proper look at your post tomorrow as it,s getting near time to bed down for the night here guess you,ve just got up , but to be going on with the muster books are at the national archives and not online so have to be searched at tna at kew in london so not a lot of help unless someone offers to do a look up for you , anyway have a great day ;).
speak soon
trevor
ps did a quick look for crimean records and can,t see him in either 11th or 18th but there are 4 wm palmers listed in those records plus 2 in the navy and also 30 odd in a section titled victorian conflicts , so hold in there .
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i,ve just found this in the world wide army index 1861 , william palmer colour sgt ist west indian regt no 211 stationed nassau & barbados .
trevor
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I have done a search on both Ancestry and Find my Past and saw that entry, but i wasnt sure it was him as the Army reference above had him as a QMS and i was told that a Colour sgt was a backwards step which made me doubt this is him... was i told wrong?
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hi carolyn
no qms is higher rank than colour sgt so was he listed as qms on or before 1861 .
trevor
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Hi Trevor
Yes, I posted a reference of his near the start of this thread. Its dated 1856 and states he is a QMS.
If he changed regiments, would he have to work his way back up again?
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hi carolyn
the short answer is i don,t know wether he would be demoted a rank if he changed regt,s you need Ken,s expertise for that answer as some of these upper nco ranks don,t appear to be straight forward promotions , can,t think how else to explain it what with warrant officers with different classes colour sgts rsm,s qms,s i,ve never understood the direct line to the top of the pile ;D .
best wishes
trevor